Goshen360:

There's no wedding in 'formal' ceremony in what I'm saying. You like wedding too much. No worry, I will make sure I attend yours with plenty dollars

You have dishonestly deflected from the question.

Goshen360:

So na now una no dey under the law.....if I dey shout say Christians no dey under the law una go dey talk. Ohh, Okay, we're NOT under the law but we don't have anything said about dowry and requirements for dowry in the NT either. So do we leave out dowry then and just take our wife..... You're gradually moving towards my point o

Lol!!!

I believe we have made considerable progress.

If we understand each other, I believe we are saying that s*x without appropriate consent is sinful but where we still need to understand each other is who gives this consent.

You believe parental consent is okay for s*x to take place. I agree with this to the extent that parental consent is supposed to be the consent from God.

My point now is that in order to confirm that this consent given by our parents is ratified by God then we need to go to church to bless the union.

This consent and blessing can take place the same day if we want.

What do you think?

Goshen360: @ Snowwy,

And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife. If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins. Exodus 22:16-17

Here you have it. Even I was even mistaking - even the dowry only comes when the father utterly refused. If the father agree, then no dowry and yet, there's pre-marital sex. What do you have to say?

Beautiful Goshen,
I warned you to watch before you post. Did his sleeping with her make her his wife even though he seduced her meaning they both consented?
No!
He has to endow her to be his wife.
Now her father has rejected no be so?
What did they commit? Fornication!
He had to pay the penalty for the sin.
Paul says to avoid fornication let every one marry.

striktlymi:

Are we now subject to the law of the old testament?

What is the law of the old testament? Please check enough threads on NL full of discussion on this. Christ is the fulfilment of the law, only in Christ can you fulfil God's laws....overflogged topic pls, I am not getting into that.

Goshen360:

Every body needs to READ this please. This is the point I'm making. When two people have the consent of BOTH parents, THEY ARE MARRIED IN THE EYES OF GOD. How the man gets his wife is irrelevant. In this case, the parents have given consent to both. They are free to make love. That's not illicit s.ex ANYMORE and it's not fornication. You people should not let the institutionalized church say you must do this or do that do be husband and wife.

Has dowry been paid? If not they are not married even in the eyes of the so called parents you are claiming have given consent.

Goshen360:

You never read am for law of Moses ni?

Quote the chapter and verse please

striktlymi:

Lol!!!

I believe we have made considerable progress.

If we understand each other, I believe we are saying that s*x without appropriate consent is sinful but where we still need to understand each other is who gives this consent.

You believe parental consent is okay for s*x to take place. I agree with this to the extent that parental consent is supposed to be the consent from God.

My point now is that in order to confirm that this consent given by our parents is ratified by God then we need to go to church to bless the union.

This consent and blessing can take place the same day if we want.

What do you think?

NO! There's nowhere in scripture where Christians in the NT goes to church to ratify parental consent. If there is, show us. That's what the church or religion says. Scriptures didn't say that.

Snowwy:

Beautiful Goshen,
I warned you to watch before you post. Did his sleeping with her make her his wife even though he seduced her meaning they both consented?
No!
He has to endow her to be his wife.
Now her father has rejected no be so?
What did they commit? Fornication!
He had to pay the penalty for the sin.
Paul says to avoid fornication let every one marry.

Ahhhh, Oga Snowwy, Ahhhhhh. You no see where the man lay with the woman in that verse? Lemme show you again sir. Yes, according to the definition of 'fornication' of you guys especially you - sex outside marriage is fornication. Abi no so you talk?

See the man lay with the woman here again,

And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife. If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins. Exodus 22:16-17

Lie with her - That's fornication according to your definition of sex outside marriage. Is that not what you said?

Goshen360:

NO! There's nowhere in scripture where Christians in the NT goes to church to ratify parental consent. If there is, show us. That's what the church or religion says. Scriptures didn't say that.

What about the wedding Jesus attended? If I go by your thought process then the wedding would be unnecessary. But it took place which implies something important enough to merit the attention of Jesus.

Now the question I will ask is: Is there anywhere in the new testament where it is said that parental consent is the only thing needed?

Mr_Anony:
Quote the chapter and verse please

I have quoted it but here you have it again,

And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife. If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins. Exodus 22:16-17

striktlymi:

What about the wedding Jesus attended? If I go by your thought process then the wedding would be unnecessary. But it took place which implies something important enough to merit the attention of Jesus.

Now the question I will ask is: Is there anywhere in the new testament where it is said that parental consent is the only thing needed?

To the issue of Jesus's presence. That adds to my point - IN THE EYES OF GOD.

To the NT where we need parental consent - That's why it must 'first' be with the consent of both intending to marry.

Very interesting thread. If I may be so bold as to interject...

I think this is a great example of how we complicate otherwise simple issues, get hung on up on words & definitions not putting directives in their proper context. Without having to quote a single verse (and I hope everyone will agree with me), but I believe God in His infinite wisdom has inherently equipped us with knowledge of what is wrong/right and acceptable in His sight. We don't need concordances, hebrew translations, latin dictionaries etc etc We have the holy spirit indwelling in us as the ultimate guide. Going by this, I believe questions like 'church wedding' 'dowry' 'consent' 'fornication' etc are all red herrings...no two situations are exactly alike. Godly wisdom is needed to determine what is appropriate/inappropriate depending on the unique circumstances you find yourself in.

^so by God's grace, let us try to not to lay down hard and fast, take it or leave it rules that declare one situation right or wrong.

That said, here is a recent submission from MNwankwo that I believe is 100% divinely inspired. It is worthy to note sir Nwankwo is not a 'Christian' - which shows you don't need to be a 'Christian' to know right from wrong. May God bless this man and increase his favor in this life and beyond.

m_nwankwo:

Hi truthislight. The union of a man and a woman who are meant for each other according to the laws of GOD has nothing to do with free s.ex and experimentation. On the contrary such a union is consecrated by the power of GOD, a power which banishes all lustful thoughts and desires. A man or woman who is inwardly pure do not indulge in secret or open impure wishes and desires. Spiritually free human beings are not victims of the over cultivated s.exual instinct, rather the fact that their marriage is a union of soul mates enables the couples to attract and absorb the purifying powers of GOD. A couple that has absorbed of this power are transformed human beings whose only desire is to bring joy and happiness to the beloved and not to soil him or her with impure wishes and desires. Indeed a marriage that is made in heaven is the best solution to to cure man`s morbid s.exual instinct and return this instinct to its healthy state. S.exual instinct in its healthy state does not torment men, rather, it is a gift of GOD which finds consummation in unions that are in accord with the laws of GOD. S.exual desires arising from a healthy s.exual instinct does not often occur in men. Today, the instinct is diseased and morbid and that is the reason why many a man or woman find it difficult to control.It also the reason why many cannot be in a relationship without harboring open or secret s.exual desires.

The condition for a s.exual relationship according to the laws of GOD is that there has been previously set in motion a perfect spiritual harmony, ie, a marriage according to the laws of GOD. Therefore, the question of s.exually sampling one person after another is totally out of question. When two couples are meant for each other, then the chords holding them together are unbreakable, thus the permanence of the marriage is assured from the very start. The same unbreakable bond of love which has received a higher consecration from the power of GOD eliminates any desire for another man or another woman. The observation that couples in "married" or "unmarried" unions still openly or secretly harbour s.exual desires about another man or woman that is not his spouse or partner is an infallible sign that that marriage did not fulfill the criteria for a genuine marriage according to the laws of GOD, or that one or both partners have stagnated and have refused to develop spiritually, psychically and physically.

Young men and women who are in search of the person meant for them do not need to travel all the continents looking for a soul mate. If they allow the small still voice within them to grow and not forcefully silence it, then, they will very easily identify the man or woman who is their own according to the laws of GOD. Experiencing such a true marriage will give them the conviction that marriage is indeed made in heaven. Stay blessed.

To see the rest: https://www.nairaland.com/1168742/marriage-pregnancy-it-sin-attend/1#13947524

May God guide & help us all in accordance with His perfect will. Amen!

Goshen360:

To the issue of Jesus's presence. That adds to my point - IN THE EYES OF GOD.

To the NT where we need parental consent - That's why it must 'first' be with the consent of both intending to marry.

Oga Goshen why you wan kidnap my point na?

That is the point I am making...God is the one who gives consent to a marriage. Now if we want to rank, which would be more appropriate to confirm this consent?


1) Consent of the individuals
2) Consent from the parent
3) Blessings from the church

I believe the 3 are important but what is needed is just 1) and 3). There are times our parents might not give their consent but this does not mean that we can't still get married.

striktlymi:

Oga Goshen why you wan kidnap my point na?

That is the point I am making...God is the one who gives consent to a marriage. Now if we want to rank, which would be more appropriate to confirm this consent?


1) Consent of the individuals
2) Consent from the parent
3) Blessings from the church

I believe the 3 are important but what is needed is just 1) and 3).

there are times our parents might not give their consent but this does not mean that we can't still get married.

The bolded tight no be small.....you got a gooÐ point there bro.....

@Goshen,
In all what does it say? Have mutual intimate relations with your spouse only!

Define fornication whichever way you want based on your head knowledge. Paul wrote, to avoid fornication, MARRY! Not CONSENT to MARRY, not be espoused to marry, not have a fiancee or be BETHROTHED.

Anything outside that is either fornication or adultery which are grave sins.
The Spirit and the word is all we need.

Mr_Anony:
You said lust meant possession and not sexual desire, I showed you a verse from your favourite NASB that cannot possibly mean possession of property. I also showed you a word "sensuality" that literally means lust in a sexual way. Yet you are denying and dancing around. I think you are trying way too hard to excuse your sin.

I have since spoken to you all this while assuming you'll be able to make the connections and meanings of what I say, but evidently you are unable to: So I hereby break it down for you. I said lust is the desire to posses\own(as in a property): in other words, lust and passion is the desire to own a woman\man in a s.exual relationship thereby denying him\her the liberty that is in christ. This is what Paul was referring to when he said:

...it is good for a man not to touch a woman(1 Corinthians 7:1)

But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion(verse 9 )

"Touch" in the above means to "hold on to" or to posses(even the NIV says: marry). Passion also is the emotion that wants to "hold on to" or that wants to posses\marry.

I'd advice you to read all of chapter 7 carefully, you cannot fail to notice Paul's strong affinity and advice for christians to prefer the unmarried life. He definitely cannot be saying that all christians should prefer a celibate life. But then christianity is not a doctrine of force but of liberty and choice. So if your emotions cannot cope without marriage, then it's better to marry than to burn(passion). Consider this whole chapter logically, passion\lust does not mean s.ex, though it is an emotion\desire that arises from a s.exual relationship(ie: jealousy, insecurity, etc) but it is not the s.ex itself that is lust\passion. Thus Jesus's words:

but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart(Matthew 5:28 ).

Are you seriously telling me that jesus commands us not to have s.exual urges? Then why did god make us so? He specifically said "everyone who looks...", without exceptions. Really?? So you can't even acknowledge the desirability of a woman anymore, else you "commit lust"? Can you really court with a woman(fiancée, betrothed) without desiring her s.exually? Common man!!! consider it logically or spiritually or whichever way you want, it just doesn't add-up. Lust\passion arises in a s.exual relationship and marriage is one of such relationships, This means that there are s.exual relationships that are without lust. Does it mean they are without s.ex then? Definitely not!! Now I have not said: Do not marry.., though I'd prefer that you do not, just like Paul, But if you cannot control your lust\passion, then go ahead and marry. It is permissible, even if not perfect. It does not take away your christianity.

You think and judge scripture based on human values(the flesh) but I give the perfect(wisdom) interpretations of these matters. What makes you different from a moslem, Buddhist, secularist, atheist, besides the label "I'm a christian"? Nothing!!! Ask them what is lust, fornication and adultery and they'd give precisely the same definitions as you. So you are of the same "kingdom of this world", not of god, since you have the same definitions and value systems. Lastly, consider Paul's emphasis on changing our mindsets and value systems, even in opposition to how Jesus lived when He was on earth. Yes!! I said it:

16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come(2 Corinthians 5:16-17 )

Now if after our mindsets and values have changed, you still look back to extol and imitate that Jesus that was "good"(according to the law, not according to god) and s.exless, then you definitely do not understand the gospel.

Continuing the passage from chapter 18:

18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation

Notice the "Not counting their trespasses against them.."? So why do you still regard s.ex without marriage as sin? Are you not still "counting them as trespasses"? You are still practicing the "Old things(values)" that are are passed away.

Snowwy: @Goshen,
In all what does it say? Have mutual intimate relations with your spouse only!

Define fornication whichever way you want based on your head knowledge. Paul wrote, to avoid fornication, MARRY! Not CONSENT to MARRY, not be espoused to marry, not have a fiancee or be BETHROTHED.

Anything outside that is either fornication or adultery which are grave sins.
The Spirit and the word is all we need.

We're saying the same thing bro but in different ways - I DO NOT SUPPORT JUMPING HERE AND THERE ON WOMEN. That's immorality, that's illicit sex but having pre-marital sex to whoever I'm to marry is NOT fornication (illicit, unapproved or unlawful sex) according to the verses I showed you. NO

Goshen360:

We're saying the same thing bro but in different ways - I DO NOT SUPPORT JUMPING HERE AND THERE ON WOMEN. That's immorality, that's illicit sex but having pre-marital sex to whoever I'm to marry is NOT fornication (illicit, unapproved or unlawful sex) according to the verses I showed you. NO

What happens if you decide for whatever reason not to go on with the marriage? ( after all y'all say a broken relationship is better than a broken marriage)

Goshen360:

I have quoted it but here you have it again,

And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife. If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins. Exodus 22:16-17

In regards to the quoted verse since we are breaking down the Word into pieces "for supposed better understanding" lets break this one down.

If you read the verse carefully you would see that this is a consequence for an action and not necessarily the order of things. When you get punished it usually means you did something wrong. The man in this verse did something wrong; which was laying with a woman who was not legally his and the consequence of his action was to make her his wife or pay a monetary fine if her father refuses to give her to him in marriage.

Since we are breaking down words here again; the word seduce/entice as it is used in this context means to lead away from proper conduct , to lead astray e.t.c . So if premarital sex was the right thing to do it would not be described as leading astray.

Marriage like other covenants in the bible usually involves setting expectations and is also usually witnessed by people. So intention to marry and the covenant- man and wife are not the same thing!

Do not be deceived premarital sex ( sex before taking your vows/ making your covenants before God and man) is SIN . Sex is a bond that unifies man and wife not intendee' and intender'

Goshen360:
but having pre-marital sex to whoever I'm to marry is NOT fornication (illicit, unapproved or unlawful sex) according to the verses I showed you. NO

It is FORNICATION!!!!!!
You did not sleep with your wife, did you? NO!

Go read Genesis 34 and see what it means for a man to sleep with someone not his wife. Infact read selected verses below.

2 And when Shechem the son of Hamor the Hivite, prince of the country, saw her, he took her, and lay with her, and defiled her. 3 And his soul clave unto Dinah the daughter of Jacob, and he loved the damsel, and spake kindly unto the damsel.

7 And the sons of Jacob came out of the field when they heard it: and the men were grieved, and they were very wroth, because he had wrought folly in Israel in lying with Jacob's daughter; which thing ought not to be done.

31 And they said, Should he deal with our sister as with an harlot?

When people start rationalising God's word with human knowledge this is what you get. As glaringly as that scripture proves that what the man did was wrong, Goshen still cannot see beyond it.
When you sleep with someone whether or not you plan to marry you have played the harlot. Only the marital bed is undefiled and honourable. Except you have another bible o.


How you can tell me that when Paul said TO AVOID fornication, MARRY! Is now my own and not the bible's definition of fornication shows you have given heed to seducing spirits and you have itchy ears.

Wahala dey o. Let me go and play ball first. I'll be back.

Ignatio: Wahala dey o. Let me go and play ball first. I'll be back.

You are the reason this whole thread even started so since your conscience must be telling you it is a sin to sleep with anyone that is not your wife or husband and you have been shown enough scriptures to prove that, if you go ahead in this sin, just know it is now willful, go read scriptures on penalty for willful sins.
Let me leave you with that.

Snowwy:

It is FORNICATION!!!!!!
You did not sleep with your wife, did you? NO!

Go read Genesis 34 and see what it means for a man to sleep with someone not his wife. Infact read selected verses below.

² And when Shechem the son of Hamor the Hivite, prince of the country, saw her, he took her, and lay with her, and [size=20pt]defiled her[/size].
³ And his soul clave unto Dinah the daughter of Jacob, and he loved the damsel, and spake kindly unto the damsel.

⁷ And the sons of Jacob came out of the field when they heard it: and the men were grieved, and they were very wroth, because he had wrought folly in Israel in lying with Jacob's daughter; which thing ought not to be done.

³¹ And they said, Should he deal with our sister as with an harlot?


When people start rationalising God's word with human knowledge this is what you get. As glaringly as that scripture proves that what the man did was wrong, Goshen still cannot see beyond it.
When you sleep with someone whether or not you plan to marry you have played the harlot. Only the marital bed is undefiled and honourable. Except you have another bible o.


How you can tell me that when Paul said TO AVOID fornication, MARRY! Is now my own and not the bible's definition of fornication shows you have given heed to seducing spirits and you have itchy ears.

The keyword there is/was RA.PE, another form of illicit or unapproved sex

Not all illicit or unapproved sex is fornication

but all fornication is illicit or unapproved sex just like adultery, ra.pe, bestiality, lesbians/homosexual sex etc is

Defiled - forcibly took her against her wish, stole what is not his and spoiled her for the rightful owner, as there was no mutual permission and agreement that they are for life until death do them part

moredendisc:

The keyword there is/was RA.PE, another form of illicit or unapproved sex

Not all illicit or unapproved sex is fornication

but all fornication is illicit or unapproved sex just like adultery, ra.pe, bestiality, lesbians/homosexual sex etc is

Defiled - forcibly took her against her wish, stole what is not his and spoiled her for the rightful owner, as there was no mutual permission and agreement that they are for life until death do them part

He LAY with her and DEFILED her!

Her brothers were angry because He LAY with her even when he came forward to marry her.

Her brothers said he DEALTH with her as with A HARLOT!

When you read where the bible says one plays the harlot it doesn't mean rape. Please read in context.

They were not married. Even bethrotheds do not have sex. Joseph and Mary did not have sex. Yet they were espoused. Was that not an agreement to be married?

They wait till marriage as they are meant to be virgins. Call it whatever name, all sex outside marriage is wrong!

Snowwy:

He LAY with her and DEFILED her!

Her brothers were angry because He LAY with her even when he came forward to marry her.

Her brothers said he DEALTH with her as with A HARLOT!

When you read where the bible says one plays the harlot it doesn't mean rape. Please read in context.

They were not married. Even bethrotheds do not have sex. Joseph and Mary did not have sex. Yet they were espoused.

They wait till marriage as they are meant to be virgins. Call it whatever name, all sex outside marriage is wrong!

@Snowwy

Unless you're a strong swimmer or have a life jacket against the current, don't bother go swimming in oceans

so be careful of bringing Joseph and Mary into this, Mary especially

It is all about mutual permission, respect, honour etc etc

and it would be interesting to know what it would have been called if the Holy Spirit still descended on Mary against her will or permission.

I am yet to read anywhere, Mary telling God's angel, "Before this union, let me go ask my papa and mama or go get their consent first ..."

. . . Holy Spirit shall come upon you, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you:
therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of you shall be called the Son of God
- Luke 1:35 KJV

Its well. See carnality.

Is the Holy Spirit now man? Abi you are now questioning God here? Pls do not blaspheme o!

I have said enough at this point.

Alwaystrue:

Its well. See carnality.

Snowwy:

Is the Holy Spirit now man? Abi you are now questioning God here? Pls do not blaspheme o!

I have said enough at this point.

See survival tactics and emotional responses to a perceived threat which is unfounded.

The Holy Spirit is now, not man. It isn't a case of, now questioning God, anywhere

The fear of the unknown is the beginning of quenching knowledge

Die to preconceived notions/ideas and become alive to new

moredendisc:



See survival tactics and emotional responses to a perceived threat which is unfounded.

The Holy Spirit is now, not man. It isn't a case of, now questioning God, anywhere

The fear of the unknown is the beginning of quenching knowledge

Die to preconceived notions/ideas and become alive to new

If the biblical laws and commandments are now preconceived ideas, let me die in them rather than live in your new world movt.
Thank you.(edited)

Snowwy:

If the biblical laws and commandments are now preconceived ideas, let me die to them rather than awake to your new world movt.
Thank you.

It is well. Have no fear, Snowwy

and it is not awakening to a new world movt but awakening to John 4:24

I do not know the particular biblical laws and commandments you are referring to

Honestly I did got confused. Opposing comments like these make me wonder why Christianity is filled with controversy and confusion. ( another topic for another day sha.)

I asked the question because of observations I made. I don't know if you guys noticed too. A trend is slowly growing in this world and it's turning out to be a norm.

The girlfriend and boyfriend relationship is becoming more important than husband and wife relationship. Thus having babies out of wedlock gets applause ( Gerard Pique and Shakira, Lionel Messi, 2face, Ballotelli, Obafemi Martins, Ice Prince, C. Ronaldo and a whole lot of others).

It is written sin is punishable but I see no form of punishment in these people's lives. Or are they immuned.

The earlier we know the truth the better for us.

And again it's now weird to be single.

So I asked why is sex a sin?

WAM?:


In regards to the quoted verse since we are breaking down the Word into pieces "for supposed better understanding" lets break this one down.

If you read the verse carefully you would see that this is a consequence for an action and not necessarily the order of things. When you get punished it usually means you did something wrong. The man in this verse did something wrong; which was laying with a woman who was not legally his and the consequence of his action was to make her his wife or pay a monetary fine if her father refuses to give her to him in marriage.

Since we are breaking down words here again; the word seduce/entice as it is used in this context means to lead away from proper conduct , to lead astray e.t.c . So if premarital sex was the right thing to do it would not be described as leading astray.

Marriage like other covenants in the bible usually involves setting expectations and is also usually witnessed by people. So intention to marry and the covenant- man and wife are not the same thing!

Do not be deceived premarital sex ( sex before taking your vows/ making your covenants before God and man) is SIN . Sex is a bond that unifies man and wife not intendee' and intender'

My dear sister,

You're helping to make my point very clear. Now, going by the word breakdown as you said. It is religion and church thing that made up this whole definition that FORNICATION means pre-marital sex. Okay, let's agree to the word seduce. How do I seduce someone when she agrees and you still call that seduction? This is NOT ra.pe where I put knife in her neck o. It's both agreement although one person must make the move first and the other consent. That's not lead astray!

On a second thought, let's say it's lead astray - Then what is the punishment? DEATH? Off course NO! Even the dowry people pay in this case is NOWHERE unless with the condition - If the father refuses to give her daughter to the man. How then do you tell me to go pay dowry when in the first place I'm not suppose to do that. Not even when I make love with the woman BUT unless when the father refuses.

All said, when I say I want to marry a woman - it already means COMMITMENT, LOVE, VOWS AND ETERNAL DECISION TILL DEATH DO US APART. You people still think it is at the marriage alter where pastor bless a marriage that these 'eternal decision till death do us apart' is being made. NO! It's ALREADY made between the two adults BEFORE going to ANYONE ELSE. AGAIN, IN THE EYES OF GOD, THEY'RE IN MARRIAGE UNION. THE REST IS FORMALITY AND CEREMONY. There's no where it is forbidden for them not to make love to themselves - That's not fornication.

@ Snowwy my brother, I got question for you. Lemme know when you're ready