striktlymi:

Good afternoon Goshen,

Let's put this in proper perspective!

Why not start with the definitions you have at hand?

I will suggest that we do not rush into any conclusion just yet as your post suggests but go through this prayerfully and with sincerity. This is a topic, if wrongly addressed, can lead a brother or sister astray.

Thank you!

I agree.

debosky: This same topic (fornication vs sex between unmarried people) was discussed a while back on NL - but 'religious' folk who refused to even listen derailed it by castigating the OP instead of actually considering what she was saying.

https://www.nairaland.com/35449/pre-marital-sex-not-fornication

Hmmm...

We are too prejudiced and closed-minded to allow for a civil discourse on religous matters. No wonder we are easily deceived by the MOGs.

U got a mail BTW.

@ Tgirl4real,

Yeah sweerie, It was very hard for me to take this definition as I flipped through my search this morning. However, I'm somebody that examine whatever is said like the Bereans. The FIRST study aid I often use is Strong's concordance and plus I have like 7 Bible dictionaries. I consulted all the 7 also and they were all consistent.

The truth is, people have been sinning without license and we are not the ones that will give people license to sin by our teachings. We only say it the way the word of God says it and allow God's people to live their Christian lives/faith. Apostle Paul said, "we're not responsible for how you live out your faith".

Adultery is s.ex out of marriage - illicit s.ex with another's wife or husband.

Well, for me; I'm raw! If I know something, I say it the way it is and people can subject me to scrutiny or examine what I say if they be true. Every Christian have responsibility to be after the example of the Bereans. Too many traditional and religious heresies we have allowed to settle in our Christian walks and such hinders our relationship with God.

@ Debosky,

Thanks for d link. Trini_girl did a good job standing for herself. Lol. I'm still reading though. The first line alone is simply hilarious.

BTW, letz not get carried away and put things in proper context just like she did.


@ Goshen,

U are right yet again. Lol

Ermm...could u pls apply same to the 'women in leadership' and 'tongues' thingy?

Don't mind me. I'm just being cheeky.

striktlymi:

Good afternoon Goshen,

Let's put this in proper perspective!

Why not start with the definitions you have at hand?

I will suggest that we do not rush into any conclusion just yet as your post suggests but go through this prayerfully and with sincerity. This is a topic, if wrongly addressed, can lead a brother or sister astray.

Thank you!

Okay, everywhere you find the word fornication (both Old and New Testament) as I started last night after talking with okeyxyz (via email) and Mr. Anony (via Skype), I didn't see it defined as s.ex between unmarried people. I understand some folk might find it very hard to digest as I also found it hard to digest but that's just what it is except we're not gonna find meanings to biblical words anymore. Also, people have being sinning without license as you also know. So, it's not what you or we say that gives people license to sin.

This is the consistent definition I have from all my materials:

It's translated the Greek word - porneia, Strong's # G4202. From Root Word (Etymology) πορνεύω (G4203) and it means:

1) illicit s.exual intercourse

a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.

b) s.exual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18

c) s.exual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,12

2) metaph. the worship of idols

a) of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols

That's the definition I have PLUS 7 bible dictionaries - all saying same thing.

Goshen360: @ Tgirl4real,

Adultery is s.ex out of marriage - illicit s.ex with another's wife or husband.

I don't think that definition for Adultery is quite adequate. I am of the opinion that adultery is illicit s*x by one who is married with someone other than the spouse. I am of the opinion that adultery is seen basically from the perspective of one who is married. I am of the opinion that it is impractical for one who is not married to commit adultery.

The definition:

illicit s.ex with another's wife or husband

could also mean that if one who is not married have s*xual relations with a married person, that individual commits adultery. I don't think this is the case.

I am of the opinion that a single person can only be involved in fornication. If for instance a single guy have sex.ual relation with a married lady, I believe it would be appropriate to say that the woman commits adultery while the guy is involved in fornication.


Thank you!

Goshen360:

Okay, everywhere you find the word fornication (both Old and New Testament) as I started last night after talking with okeyxyz (via email) and Mr. Anony (via Skype), I didn't see it defined as s.ex between unmarried people. I understand some folk might find it very hard to digest as I also found it hard to digest but that's just what it is except we're not gonna find meanings to biblical words anymore. Also, people have being sinning without license as you also know. So, it's not what you or we say that gives people license to sin.

This is the consistent definition I have from all my materials:

It's translated the Greek word - porneia, Strong's # G4202. From Root Word (Etymology) πορνεύω (G4203) and it means:

1) illicit s.exual intercourse

a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.

b) s.exual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18

c) s.exual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,12

2) metaph. the worship of idols

a) of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols

That's the definition I have PLUS 7 bible dictionaries - all saying same thing.

Sorry Goshen, I will come back to this! Logicboy, ooman and advocate are knocking in another thread.

Tgirl4real: @ Debosky,

Thanks for d link. Trini_girl did a good job standing for herself. Lol. I'm still reading though. The first line alone is simply hilarious.

BTW, letz not get carried away and put things in proper context just like she did.


@ Goshen,

U are right yet again. Lol

Ermm...could u pls apply same to the 'women in leadership' and 'tongues' thingy?

Don't mind me. I'm just being cheeky.

Okay. I will give attention to women in leadership again. As for tongues, I have done that - It means language. You need to read that tongue thing from New Living Translation and read it slowly. You no sha like this tongue thing Anyway, I'm still waiting for you to receive the gift of 'praying' tongues, not 'sign' tongues o. My stance on tongue is, it is scripturally wrong speaking in tongues in worship places while you can't interpret or no one to interpret BUT praying tongue is private when you pray to God.

striktlymi:

I don't think that definition for Adultery is quite adequate. I am of the opinion that adultery is illicit sex by one who is married with someone other than the spouse. I am of the opinion that adultery is seen basically from the perspective of one who is married. I am of the opinion that it is impractical for one who is not married to commit adultery.

The definition: could also mean that if one who is not married have sex.ual relations with a married person, that individual commits adultery. I don't think this is the case.

I am of the opinion that a single person can only be involved in fornication. If for instance a single guy have sex.ual relation with a married lady, I believe it would be appropriate to say that the woman commits adultery while the guy is involved in fornication.


Thank you!

I hear you but the same definition I was given in the tradition 'religious' setting. Pull up definitions for adultery and fornication other than what I gave from Strong's concordance if you have any.

Let me get this pls. Are u basically saying sex between two consenting adults that are not married to each other is not a sin?

Goshen360:

I hear you but the same definition I was given in the tradition 'religious' setting. Pull up definitions for adultery and fornication other than what I gave from Strong's concordance if you have any.

Sorry to say but the above is not correct! The definitions I used are consistent with what 'strong' suggested. What we should be aware of is that 'Strong' did not set out to interpret the bible. What he proffered were possible meaning to words used in sacred scriptures. It is one thing to know the meaning of a word and another to use it in the proper context, more so in the context as used in sacred scriptures. Using a word without applying it to the context of use is not appropriate.

Now, 'Strong' has given the following meaning to the word “porneia” (πορνείᾳ):

1) illicit sexual intercourse
1a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse
with animals etc.
1b) sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
1c) sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mr 10:11,12
2) metaph. the worship of idols
2a) of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the
sacrifices offered to idols.

Taking them one after the other, we have the following plausible meanings:

1) illicit s*xual intercourse:

The key to the above phrase is the word illicit. This means "forbidden by law, rules, or custom" http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/illicit. The phrase illicit s*xual intercourse can thus mean s*xual relations that are not in line with the 'law', 'rules' or 'custom'. I don't know if I need to show that one who is married is within his rights to have s*x hence this can only be applied to one who is yet to be married.

Before I continue I will like to know your view on the above. But the point really is that contextual meaning is the key to understanding what sacred scriptures teaches about fornication.


Thank you!

striktlymi:


Taking them one after the other, we have the following plausible meanings:

1) illicit s*xual intercourse:

The key to the above phrase is the word illicit. This means "forbidden by law, rules, or custom" http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/illicit. The phrase illicit s*xual intercourse can thus mean s*xual relations that are not in line with the 'law', 'rules' or 'custom'. I don't know if I need to show that one who is married is within his rights to have s*x hence this can only be applied to one who is yet to be married.

Before I continue I will like to know your view on the above. But the point really is that contextual meaning is the key to understanding what sacred scriptures teaches about fornication.


Thank you!

You quoted the same very definitions I also quoted from strong's concordance and yet you said it's not correct. When I got that definition, I also did same thing by looking up the definition of the word 'illicit' and YOU'RE RIGHT - I agree 100%.

Now go ahead! Can we then put these definitions in context as well or what?

Goshen360:

Okay. I will give attention to women in leadership again. As for tongues, I have done that - It means language. You need to read that tongue thing from New Living Translation and read it slowly. You no sha like this tongue thing Anyway, I'm still waiting for you to receive the gift of 'praying' tongues, not 'sign' tongues o. My stance on tongue is, it is scripturally wrong speaking in tongues in worship places while you can't interpret or no one to interpret BUT praying tongue is private when you pray to God.

I agree with what u said on tongues in worship cos that's scriptures. What I don't agree with is the 'private praying tongue'.

We can move it to the tongue thread.

Joagbaje: @ Okeyxyz

What can you say about this scripture

1 Corinthians 7:2
Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

This passage is packed with wisdom. To start with: Why was there an issue of fornication in the first place if not that the gospel itself preached s.exual liberty? But because of the misuse of s.exual liberty with christians feeling that liberty means you have a right to another man's wife or betrothed, therefore causing conflicts. Paul's advice was that each man should have his wife and each woman her husband if they cannot bear to share their woman\man. Remember that he started with "it is good for a man not to touch a woman(1 Cor 7:1)" but because of how we use language, society has misinterpreted "touch" to mean s.exual contact. But no, "touch"(check your bible dictionaries) in this case means to possess or to own a woman for yourself, therefore denying others access to her(because of jealousy). Paul CANNOT possibly be telling these guys not to have s.ex!! Likewise he said to the widows and the unmarried that it is good they do not marry, but if they cannot have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to "burn with passion"(1 cor 7:9 ). Again here, he's not using "burn with [passion]" to mean s.ex, but the jealousy that arises from letting others have access to your woman\man.

We know(or believe) that the apostles were never married, thus the manner of paul's advice to christians that he wished that everybody were to be like him(unmarried), But I cannot possibly believe that these apostles went without s.ex, NO!! I DON'T BELIEVE SO. How can Paul tell people to go without s.ex?? He simply advised them to go without marriage, but if you cannot contain your emotions\jealousy, then please go ahead and marry.

@ Tgirl4real,

Okay, start it up in any of the tongue thread. I will join over there. This one wey you dey #tongue out# so, I perceive you need this gift of praying tongue ASAP.....

@ okeyxyz,

If I'm to interpret that verse from Joagbaje, I will simply parallel it with the word meaning of 'fornication' in this manner:

1 Corinthians 7:2
Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

It 'might' rephrase thus, inserting the word meaning in place of 'fornication'

Nevertheless, to avoid fornication illicit intimate intercourse, intimate intercourse with a divorced man or woman let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

Taken the word meaning into consideration, it will therefore mean 'some' or 'most' of the Corinthians were sleeping with or having 'illicit' (unlawful) s.ex with another's man or woman. Hence, the phrase "have HIS OWN WIFE/HUSBAND" in context was given. This view is supported by this Translation,

Expanded Bible (EXB)
But because se.xual sin is a danger [of se.xual temptations;  of se.xual sins], each man should have [or have se.xual relations with] his own wife, and each woman should have [or have se.xual relations with] her own husband.

It 'suggests' that some 'might' be having se.xual intercourse with another's wife or husband which in KJV is called fornication - It's just se.xual sin here.

Tgirl4real:

This second paragraph get k-leg o.

What do u mean by the highlighted?

God has made all things good and pure and to be used\consumed\enjoyed by man. Thus To him that is pure, all things are pure:
To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled(Titus 1:15 ).

It is the conscience of the law, not god, that tells us that these things are forbidden or that puts conditions on them like saying: the only way you can have s.ex is to be married. Why would paul declare that "all things are lawful"? yes! he follows it with "but not all things are profitable", But then we know they are lawful: which means they cannot take away from your righteousness. SO it is left to you to use wisdom to know when to properly exercise your liberty eg: don't drink too much, don't smoke, etc... It's up to you. You are responsible for your actions. You can use your liberty to court trouble and misery for yourself or you can use liberty to avoid trouble, eg: obey the law of the land if you don't want to go to jail.

@OP and all,
I will like to get this straight because all I have read so far does not in anyway explain if sex outside marriage is a sin or not:

1. Is sex between two unmarried consenting adults a sin?

2. Is it a sin for a married man or woman to have consenting sex with someone other than the spouse?

Thank you.

Goshen360:

You quoted the same very definitions I also quoted from strong's concordance and yet you said it's not correct. When I got that definition, I also did same thing by looking up the definition of the word 'illicit' and YOU'RE RIGHT - I agree 100%.

Now go ahead! Can we then put these definitions in context as well or what?

@Bold: wasn't referring to your definition. Was referring to the remark:

Goshen360: I hear you but the same definition I was given in the tradition 'religious' setting.

Sorry if I didn't point this out appropriately.

I will continue with my analysis soon. Got to take care of some stuff offline.

Will be back!

Thanks and sorry again!

ihedioramma: BECOS OF PROBLEM IT MAY BRING THAT IS WHY JESUS ASK US TO MARRY ONLY ONE AND STOP WRONG SEX .@ OP, IF U SE ME HAVING SEX WITH YOUR WOMAN WILL U BE HAPPY WITH ME? THAT IS WHAT U ARE ASKING ARE U OK NOW? SEX IS FOR EVERY BODY AT THE TIME U MARRY UR HUSBAND OR WIFE. ANY SEX BEFOR U MARRY IS SIN IF U LIKE CALL IT THE PERSON U WANT TO MARRY.

Moro on cant you think without jesus? Sheep!

Snowwy: @OP and all,
I will like to get this straight because all I have read so far does not in anyway explain if sex outside marriage is a sin or not:

1. Is sex between two unmarried consenting adults a sin?

Simply NO!!

2. Is it a sin for a married man or woman to have consenting sex with someone other than the spouse?
Thank you.

If their marriage partner consents to it, then fine, otherwise it's adultery.
The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does(1 cor 7:4 )

@Goshen

Agreed. Except for the divorce part. A divorced man\woman is released from the marriage contract and free to go as he\she pleases. The divorce christians still cling to is the divorce defined by the law, which Jesus highlighted it's severity. But then, that's just interpreting according to the letter\law. There is a perfect(spiritual) interpretation, having nothing to do with our concept of marriage.

okeyxyz:
Simply NO!!

Really?
Goshen, do you agree with this?

okeyxyz:
If their marriage partner consents to it, then fine, otherwise it's adultery.
The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does(1 cor 7:4 )

Waow!
In other words, the authority here is for the man or woman to sleep around as long as the spouse is not bothered or accepts?

okeyxyz: @Goshen

Agreed. Except for the divorce part. A divorced man\woman is released from the marriage contract and free to go as he\she pleases. The divorce christians still cling to is the divorce defined by the law, which Jesus highlighted it's severity. But then, that's just interpreting according to the letter\law. There is a perfect(spiritual) interpretation, having nothing to do with our concept of marriage.

100% agreed!

Snowwy:
Really?
Goshen, do you agree with this?

My brother, please go find biblical word meaning to the word 'fornication' as see for yourself. Forget what the religious meaning said it is. That's what I've done. It will change your concept.

To answer your question, YES, I agree to okeyxyz's answer except for the definition of 'fornication' as seen - if there's consented s.ex between an unmarried and a married or unmarried prosti.tute (because prosti.tution is illicit), it is a sin; otherwise, NO, not a sin.

Goshen360:

My brother, please go find biblical word meaning to the word 'fornication' as see for yourself. Forget what the religious meaning said it is. That's what I've done. It will change your concept.

To answer your question, YES, I agree to okeyxyz's answer except for the definition of 'fornication' as seen - if there's consented s.ex between an unmarried and a married or unmarried prosti.tute, it is a sin; otherwise, NO, not a sin.

Thanks, no further questions.

okeyxyz:

This is very insightful. NICE!!
Se.x itself is not(and cannot be) sin. The real "sin" is se.x-abuse; meaning se.xual-immorality; meaning fornication. Abuse is either unnatural or illegal(without consent) se.x, including r.ape, bestiality, homo\bi-se.xuality, pedophilia, idolatry, etc

Oookay, you made sense up to this point.

okeyxyz:
You do not need marriage to enjoy se.x.

BULLSHIT

okeyxyz:
Marriage as we know it is a invention\tradition of man, not of god. Se.x between consenting adult male and female CANNOT be sin, it is a nature and it is godly expression. This is the freedom that christ has given you: the infinite right to go as you "please", to express your true self without the conscience of the law in the way to condemn you with it's: "Thou shalt not..., thou shalt not...". If god cannot sin, then whatsoever is of god's nature(pleasures of eating, drinking and s.ex) cannot be sin. Enjoy...

This is premium camelshit. You just twisted the scriptures to suit your own carnal desires. Read 1Cor 6: 15-20. Se.x is not a sin. Se.x was made for us to enjoy, as an act of consummation and for procreation. Illicit sex, i.e sex outside the confines of holy matrimony, vis fornication and adultery IS a sin.

Ishilove:

Illicit sex, i.e sex outside the confines of holy matrimony, vis fornication and adultery IS a sin.

Ishilove, What is the meaning of fornication?

Billyonaire: Sex is never a sin, was never a sin and will never be a sin. Sin is a control statement used by religion for population control.

Ignatio:

You also believe that people must be slaves because the bible supports slavery and it is a sin for slaves not to obey their masters. Right?

Back to the topic, humans have a jealous nature. People that share something intimate sure won't love it to leave their circle. I can have a girlfriend whom I share some special things with exclusively. I don't think having sex makes us sinners. I believe it's all about choice.

Wow, so much bullshit on one thread. Amazing.

Ignatio:
Even Abraham had intercourse with his slave girl, his wife consenting.

True. That's why Ishmael's descendants are terrorising the world today. If he had kept his 'willy' away from Hagar, perhaps it would have been a different story.

Goshen360:

Ishilove, What is the meaning of fornication?

Sex between two unmarried people.

ISHILOVE, shei you follow me see all these HERESY AND FALLACY?