This thread does a lot to undermine the legitimacy of any body claiming to be the Church of Christ. Interesting.

Enigma:
Oh and by the way, the Eastern Orthodox Church aka the Orthodox Catholic Church also throws a 'smackdown' concerning "catholic" in the small 'c' adjectival sense.

Yet again from one I made earlier https://www.nairaland.com/1254965/eastern-orthodox-church-orthodox-catholic#15210581

Old thread but the so-called Orthodox are schismatics. Of course they think they are the holders of the truth with their schismatic bishop Mark of Ephesus.

Enigma:
Small time now, Roman Catholics go begin claim Chrysostom!

Enuwe, here is a prayer associated with him:

"Almighty God, you have given us grace at this time with one accord to make our common supplication to you; and you have promised through your well-beloved Son that when two or three are gathered together in his Name you will be in the midst of them: Fulfill now, O Lord, our desires and petitions as may be best for us; granting us in this world knowledge of your truth, and in the age to come life everlasting. Amen"

Have you actually read St Chrysostom or are you just being the typical Protestant. I see some of your people claim St Augustine to be a Calvinist because of one quote taken in isolation

Enigma:
Of course he will say that of the Roman Catholic Church!

I will demonstrate that shortly. In the meantime as your "friend" claims to be an Anglican, do you want to help him with answers to the following?

By the way, confirm now openly that:

1. The Anglicans are heretics;
2. The Anglicans do not have "apostolic succession", as
3. Anglican orders are "absolutely null and utterly void".

Yes the Anglicans are heretics and their "Archbishop" is an Archlayman just like Oyedepo

Enigma:





And here the duplicity of Roman Catholic apologists and the fraudulent sham of Roman Catholic arguments exposed.

1. They say their church is called "Catholic" because Ignatius gave that name to the church: but they declare Ignatius' own church "anathema"

2. They say Ignatius was a "Catholic": but they declare Ignatius' own church "anathema"

3. They say Ignatius is the one who says we must do nothing without bishops: but they declare Ignatius' own church "anathema"




I never said he asked; I simply asked you to inform him.

And obviously, I am making fun of your uneasy alliance --- both sides of it.

One side says to or at least of the other: 'you are heretics without apostolic succession and your ordinations/orders are absolutely null and utterly void!' And the other side says ......... (fill in the blanks)!

Ok if the Church of Ignatius is not in communion with Rome then what is the Melkite Greek Catholic Church or the Syriac Catholic Church. Are you ignorant or just dishonest? The Church of St Augustine is within the Catholic Church ok? The Eastern Orthodox just created a parallel structure after the Partriarch of Antioch united with Rome.

FOR Catholics in the house and any one who is interested I invite you to read and comment on my blogposts...tell me what you think...we could have meaningful conversations and learn more about our Christian and Catholic faith. I invite those still in whatever form of doubt to log in to the credoexperience..com and ask your questions..... thanks as you do so...here is my latest post http://credoexperience..com/2015/06/the-holy-mass-forepatterned.html?m=1

Also here is my reply to the Rev.Chris OKOTIE http://credoexperience..com/2013/12/chris-okotie-i-challenge-you-my-reply.html?m=1

@Engima stop lying

Patheos:
@Engima stop lying

You want to deprive him of his only recourse.

You don't seem to understand the level of his conundrum. In order to have the bible as the only authority and basis for christianity he is required to attack anything else that will challenge that position including the church itself and it's bishops and leaders.

He actually makes quite an interesting case study of the convolutions of delusion.

Enigma:
You are saying that Jesus is present in a community of two or three Christians gathered in His name, how can they then not be His Church?

And look at your self-contradiction with your "Away from me" nonsense!

How can He then disown the community among whom He is present?

The lies and fraud of the Roman Catholic "Church" have evidently clouded your reasoning and logic.

Of course it is evident to anyone reading the passage with a clean mind that Jesus is addressing the efficacy of prayer and he is saying that when christians come together to pray communally in his name then the prayers will be answered. Jesus didn't say that if any Tom Dick and Harry whether a christian or not come together ('in my name', i.e. by my authority) then they are automatically a church. This is the kind of twisting that is required when you give yourself over to delusions.

Patheos:
@Engima stop lying

Would it not have been more salient if you were to show the lies he has posted and go ahead to show why his stance is false as you claim rather than expecting us to swallow your words hook line and sinker?

PastorAIO:


You want to deprive him of his only recourse.

You don't seem to understand the level of his conundrum.

Of course it is evident to anyone reading the passage with a clean mind that Jesus is addressing the efficacy of prayer and he is saying that when christians come together to pray communally in his name then the prayers will be answered. Jesus didn't say that if any Tom Dick and Harry whether a christian or not come together ('in my name', i.e. by my authority) then they are automatically a church. This is the kind of twisting that is required when you give yourself over to delusions.

Interesting!

If only you would allow the Bible to be the basis of clarification on this issue, then and only then can the truth stand out.

As much as it cannot be 'ALL' that claim to gather in Jesus name that in actual it is true that Jesus is in their midst, so all so, you cannot show evidence that what Jesus meant was that being in "your midst" is only in terms of prayers alone.

For one, Jesus cannot be in a midst of so call Christians if falsehood is their basis of operation, if it is falsehood, they would not be representing Jesus at the first place but rather, doing the work of the father of the liar.

John 4:44

44 You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.
......................................................................................................................................

So, based on the above, if Satan is the father of the lie, it then mean that liars are children of satan.

With that, it is true that those that Jesus can be in their midst has to be those handling the truth, and truth the Bible helps us to know is the word of God. John17:17.

Those on the side of the truth, are the ones that Jesus will "set free" and they will be his people.
...................................................................................................................................

However, If you insist that it is in prayer alone that Jesus can be in the midst of Christians, then, you have to show evidence and rationale for your stance.

Peace.

Christians worship the father via many forms, Preaching, praising, prayer, actions. Jesus is the mediator according to the Bible. If Jesus would not be in the Midst of the true worshipers during these worship session, how can he mediate?

See what he told early worshipers:

Revelation3:1

3 “To the angel of the Church in Sar′dis write: These are the things that he says who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars: ‘I know your deeds, that you have the name that you are alive, but you are dead".

How did he Jesus got to know the deeds of that church if he was not in their midst?

Was he only in their midst just only during prayers and got to know all their deeds?

truthislight:

[size=1pt]
Interesting!

If only you would allow the Bible to be the basis of clarification on this issue, then and only then can the truth stand out.

As much as it cannot be 'ALL' that claim to gather in Jesus name that in actual it is true that Jesus is in their midst, so all so, you cannot show evidence that what Jesus meant was that being in "your midst" is only in terms of prayers alone.

For one, Jesus cannot be in a midst of so call Christians if falsehood is their basis of operation, if it is falsehood, they would not be representing Jesus at the first place but rather, doing the work of the father of the liar.

John 4:44

44 You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.
......................................................................................................................................

So, based on the above, if Satan is the father of the lie, it then mean that liars are children of satan.

With that, it is true that those that Jesus can be in their midst has to be those handling the truth, and truth the Bible helps us to know is the word of God. John17:17.

Those on the side of the truth, are the ones that Jesus will "set free" and they will be his people.
...................................................................................................................................

However, If you insist that it is in prayer alone that Jesus can be in the midst of Christians, then, you have to show evidence and rationale for your stance.

Peace.[/size]

you cannot show evidence that what Jesus meant was that being in "your midst" is only in terms of prayers alone.

Evidence? Are you serious? You're trying to hide behind lack of evidence? All you need is an understanding of english language my brother.

Matthew18

19Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.


The passage is about the power of communal action. If you get together with your brother to 'ask' for something from God what do you call that? Not prayer? Then what is it? Voodoo?

Jesus states clearly that when more than one person agrees to pray on a subject that it will be answered. He then explains why.

The why is BECAUSE when 2 or 3 are gathered in his name he too is there in the midst of them. That is the evidence. It is plain in your bible but I am keen to see how you shall twist it into something else.

So, based on the above, if Satan is the father of the lie, it then mean that liars are children of satan.

Wrong! Are you telling me that you've never lied? Who hasn't lied?

So is Yahweh a child of Satan?

PastorAIO:


Matthew18

19Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

I had never said prayer/request is not inclusive in among the reason that will warrant him to be with his true followers. i only pointed out that other gathering are involve in the reasons.

Lets add vers 20:

20"For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.”

The above shows that Jesus talked about being in the midst of those that gathered accordingly in truth, i never said that he will not be there in prayer, i had rather said that he said he will be in their midst as long as they are there in accordance with 'his' instructions, truth.

Be it worship, prayer, the worshipers need him to take such to the father, for no one gets to the father except
through Jesus. if he is never there when his followers do other things but prayers, it then means he will be oblivious of all other things they do.

PastorAIO:

The passage is about the power of communal action. If you get together with your brother to 'ask' for something from God what do you call that?

The above has never been my argument, i only said it goes beyond prayers. I only called you out because of the painting that @Enigma's statement was getting, that it was wrong.

PastorAIO:

Not prayer? Then what is it?

Yes, prayers is just one of them, but not alone.

Go check your initial argument.

PastorAIO:

Jesus states clearly that when more than one person agrees to pray on a subject that it will be answered. He then explains why.

The why is because he will be there during their gathering in his name, to take all their request to the father. "no one can go to the father except through the son. Unless you are telling us that the praise and worship does not go to the father. How did he got to know the deeds of that church in Revelation if he was not privy to their other activities?

PastorAIO:

The why is BECAUSE when 2 or 3 are gathered in his name he too is there in the midst of them. That is the evidence. It is plain in your bible but I am keen to see how you shall twist it into something else.

Lol. You have turned the argument from north to south.

If that was your simple stand, without limiting it to prayers, then i have nothing against that.

PastorAIO:

Wrong! Are you telling me that you've never lied? Who hasn't lied?

Lol. I have pointed to you what the bible said. The Pharisees saw the truth about Jesus and decided to lie against him and his works, deliberately. When people are not interested in the truth of God's word but take side with falsehood, then they take after Satan.

"Know the truth and the truth will set you free the Bible says".

Isaiah5:20

20 Woe to those who say that good is bad and bad is good,
Those who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness,
Those who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

The discussion is not about me but rather, what the Bible says.

"Though all men be found a liar, let God be found true", Hence, the way and what i see in the Bible, that is what i stand for.

PastorAIO:

So is Yahweh a child of Satan?

Is Yahweh a LIAR! ?

truthislight:


I had never said prayer/request is not inclusive in among the reason that will warrant him to be with his true followers. i only pointed out that other gathering are involve in the reasons.

Lets add vers 20:

20"For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.”

The above shows that Jesus talked about being in the midst of those that gathered accordingly in truth, i never said that he will not be there in prayer, i had rather said that he said he will be in their midst as long as they are there in accordance with 'his' instructions, truth.

Be it worship, prayer, the worshipers need him to take such to the father, for no one gets to the father except
through Jesus. if he is never there when his followers do other things but prayers, it then means he will be oblivious of all other things they do.



The above has never been my argument, i only said it goes beyond prayers. I only called you out because of the painting that @Enigma's statement was getting, that it was wrong.



Yes, prayers is just one of them, but not alone.

Go check your initial argument.

The why is because he will be there during their gathering in his name, to take all their request to the father. "no one can go to the father except through the son. Unless you are telling us that the praise and worship does not go to the father. How did he got to know the deeds of that church in Revelation if he was not privy to their other activities?

I would imagine that he would know what was going on in the churches of Revelation the same way he knew what was going on with the Kings of Babylon and the Kings of Assyria.

Let me see if I get you straight.

Are you saying that Jesus is not present somewhere until 2 or 3 christians turn up in his name to meet?

I personally believe that when Jesus says , 'there I am in the midst of them' he is not referring to some sort of magical emergence but rather he is referring to an intensified concentrated efficacy.

Would you be saying that when a christian is alone, say, in a prison cell or wherever, that Jesus is not present with him? That there is no one there to 'take all their requests to the father' as you put it?

I say that is not true but rather Jesus was referring to a concentrated efficacy and a heightening of authority when there is more than one person gathered with a shared purpose. I believe that Jesus was stressing the importance of communal activity.


All that is very different with the argument being put forward by the OP that the Church is defined by 2 or 3 people coming together in his name.

truthislight:
Christians worship the father via many forms, Preaching, praising, prayer, actions. Jesus is the mediator according to the Bible. If Jesus would not be in the Midst of the true worshipers during these worship session, how can he mediate?
See what he told early worshipers:
Revelation3:1
3 “To the angel of the Church in Sar′dis write: These are the things that he says who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars: ‘I know your deeds, that you have the name that you are alive, but you are dead".
[b]How did he Jesus got to know the deeds of that church if he was not in their midst?
[/b]Was he only in their midst just only during prayers and got to know all their deeds?

Are saying that the only way that Jesus knew what was going on in Sardis is because he was in the midst of the Dead church?

PastorAIO:


I would imagine that he would know what was going on in the churches of Revelation the same way he knew what was going on with the Kings of Babylon and the Kings of Assyria.

Let me see if I get you straight.

Are you saying that Jesus is not present somewhere until 2 or 3 christians turn up in his name to meet?

I personally believe that when Jesus says , 'there I am in the midst of them' he is not referring to some sort of magical emergence but rather he is referring to an intensified concentrated efficacy.

Would you be saying that when a christian is alone, say, in a prison cell or wherever, that Jesus is not present with him? That there is no one there to 'take all their requests to the father' as you put it?

I say that is not true but rather Jesus was referring to a concentrated efficacy and a heightening of authority when there is more than one person gathered with a shared purpose. I believe that Jesus was stressing the importance of communal activity.


All that is very different with the argument being put forward by the OP that the Church is defined by 2 or 3 people coming together in his name.




Are saying that the only way that Jesus knew what was going on in Sardis is because he was in the midst of the Dead church?

Lol.

Well, i agree that he knows a lot more, even outside of what is happening to Christians. As long we don't limit that scriptures to only prayers.

I will even accept that the scripture was him assuring Christians that he knows all that is happening, even when 'they' make request. even when they cannot literally see him, he knows what.

Besides, how can he be the Judge of all mankind if he will not know all that all mankind is doing?

John5:22

22 "For the Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted 'all' the judging to the Son".
...........................................................................................................................

Peace

I however, will not want to accept that the Church is a literal structure.

I see the church as the gathering of brethren-for the purpose of worship/follower-ship of Christ.

As in Sadis in Revelation, Jesus addressing to the Church cannot be to a literal structure, but a group of Christ followers in Sadis.

PastorAIO:

So is Yahweh a child of Satan?

Is Yahweh a LIAR! ?