yes non muslims have lots of questions. one of the ways you could teach them about islam is by responding to their questions. by so doing u dispel wrong notions and replace with the right knowledge.

questions like the following
how can muslims show a non muslim how islam was practised before Mohamed. how did the early muslims worship their God.pls show with proofs
1.. did thay recite the shadadah
2. did they believe in one God (Allah).
3. did they beleive that Mohammed is his prophet. (seal of the prophets)
4. did they pray five times a day
5. did they pay zakat
6. did they fast during the ramadan
7. did they go to Mecca for pilgrimage and what did they do when they went there

this is islam as practised by todays muslims. was it this same islam that the muslims practised before Muhammed. did the early muslims worship their God as highlighted in the above points.

i ask this question because i believe that when u make a statement you should be able to provide proofs.
Muslims have always said that Islam had existed before Muhammed came into the scene.

now in responding to these questions u must show proofs from Allah's word the quran. u are free to run to the "corrupted book" for help as long as u can prove that Allah was what they were worshipping and not Yahweh. (Nb Allah is not same with Elohim/Yahweh because it has not be proven yet. see this thread for reason why
www.nairaland.com/1256820/prove-me-allah-yahweh-same#15276612)

if u can answer the questions with proofs then u have bin able to educate a non muslim. IF U CANNOT then the statement that islam existed before the prophet is an assumption and a false one at that.
#remember u r educating non muslims.

ISLAM is arabic word which means surrender to d will of God, Those who practice religion of islam are called Muslim. Muslim is an arabic word and which means worshiper of none except Allah alone.

Also Allah is an Arabic word which means God, Supreme Being. In Hebrew language God means ELOHA but jews use plural form ELOHIM. It is not subject to plurality or gender. It is confusing to use the word God as many English-speaking Christian still consider Jesus as God, even the word creator is also confusing, as many christians still maintain that jesus had created the world.

If u can access to Arabic Bible that those christian arabs are using, you will see that God in that bible translate to Allah

Not only the name of Allah is strange, but also the way muslims worship Allah with ablution, bowing, kneeling, prostration and fasting is strange to non-muslim, but not strange to all prophets.

While ablution (washing of face, arms, feet and moistening of d hair) prior to worship is abandoned by modern christian, it is still required by muslim and previous prophets, as seen in the following passages of the Bible: Exodus 40:31-32
31 And Moses and Aaron and his sons washed their hands and their feet thereat:
32 When they went into the tent of the congregation, and when they came near unto the altar, they washed; as the Lord commanded Moses.

John 13:12-15
12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?
13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.


Although Paul made many changes in jesus teaching, he was still faithful in respect to ablution(purification) as seen in Act 21:26;
26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.


Muslim Women perform their prayer with their head covered as 1 cor 11:5, 6 and 13;
5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?


Muslims worship with bowing, kneeling, prostration and without shoes as done by previous Prophet;
Psalm 95:6
6 O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the Lord our maker.

Joshua 5:14
14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?

Nehemiah 8:4-6
4 And Ezra the scribe stood upon a pulpit of wood, which they had made for the purpose; and beside him stood Mattithiah, and Shema, and Anaiah, and Urijah, and Hilkiah, and Maaseiah, on his right hand; and on his left hand, Pedaiah, and Mishael, and Malchiah, and Hashum, and Hashbadana, Zechariah, and Meshullam.

5 And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people; (for he was above all the people and when he opened it, all the people stood up:

6 And Ezra blessed the Lord, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped the Lord with their faces to the ground.

Matthew 4:10
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Pls Muslim Brothers and Sister I opened this trend "SOURCE OF THE QURAN https://www.nairaland.com/1273205/sources-quran If anybody has any contribution or Comment shud do

"Islam" is explained both as a verb and as a noun. The reason for this is to help the non-Muslims understand that "Islam" has always been there for all of the people since the time of Adam, peace be upon him. This is in the form of the verb, "Islam." Anyone who "Islams" is therefore, a "Muslim."
As regards what the prophet Muhammad (saw) brought this is clearly the noun form of the same word, "Islam." Yet, at the same time we still can understand it as a verb.

The religion of the people who came after their prophets always became named by them in ways that they could divide up themselves and distinguish themselves from other groups. The Muslims have tried to do the same thing even today. The idea of dividing up into different groups is something that Allah forbid us to do in the Quran and it is something that the devil loves to see us do.

ISLAM is the Way of all of the prophets from the first (as) to Muhammad (saw). They all called the people to submit their free choice that Allah had given them to the Will of Allah. That is what "Islam" is really all about

When the people begin to corrupt and change the message, they give some name to it that makes it distinct for them. Usually they chose a noun such as a person, place or thing. The examples are many, but let me mention the Hindus, from the nation of Hind, the Jews from the tribe of Judah, the Christians from The Christ, the Buddhists from the name of their Buddha. All of these are "nouns" right? So that is where they took the names.

Almighty Allah said:And those who have been given the Book differ not except after the knowledge has come to them out of mutual jealousy;And whoever disbelieves in the signs of God,Then surely God is quick to make up (his) account.(Quran 3:19)

Also:

Say thou, “We believe in God, and what has been sent on us, And what was sent on Abraham, And Ishmael, And Isaac, And Jacob, And His children,And what was given to Moses, And Jesus, And the prophets from the Lord.We split not one from the rest – And to Him are we obedient (Muslims).”
(Quran 3:84)

And whoever seeks a faith other than Al-Islam Then never shall it be accepted from him And he shall in the Future be a looser.(Quran 3:85)

Islam is the continuation and perfection of all the previous religions and is the religion with God.

am goin to answer u later but for now let me ask u this.
were there no early muslims in saudi arabia and how did they worship their Allah. show evidence

.

deSika: am goin to answer u later but for now let me ask u this.
were there no early muslims in saudi arabia and how did they worship their Allah. show evidence

LET ME START FROM QURAN WHERE GOD CHALLENGED JEWS AND CHRISTIANS:

“The Jews and Christians believed that Ibrahim (Abraham) is the ancestor of the Jews. So, Allah revealed: “O People of the Scripture! Why will ye argue about Abraham, when the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed till after him? Have ye then no sense?” (Al `Imran: 65)

Then Allah Almighty says the truth about Ibrahim that he was not a Jew or a Christian, but a “Muslim” submitting to the Will of Allah: “Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian; rather he was an upright man who had surrendered to Allah (Muslim), and he was not of the idolaters.”(Al `Imran: 67)”

Quran 2:40- Or say you that Abrahamn, Ismail, Isaac, jacob and 12 sons of jacob were jews or Christian? Say, Do you know better or does God know better... That they all were muslims. And who is more unjust than he who conceals the testimony..

QUESTION: WAS ABRAHAM A JEWS OR CHRISTIAN?
IF THERE WAS NO ANY CONTRARY VIEW, THEN QURAN IS TRUTH

The Holy Kabah built by Abraham and his son Ismail is in Mecca. This name Mecca has been mentioned one and another name for Mecca is Bakka, depending on the dialect of the tribe. This also has been mentioned one time in Surah 3:96

3:96The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka: Full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings:

Amasing enough, this word Baka was mentioned by Prophet David in his Psalm 84:5
6 Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools.

The W ell here is the well-known Well of ZamZam Water, still present now, close to the Kabah.

After the Prophet of Allah, Isa ibn Maryam (Christ), there was a long period without a Prophet. Light and knowledge disappeared. Christianity fell into disrepute and became a matter of sport for the corrupt and the hypocrites. From the very beginning, Christianity had been subjected to alterations by extremists and to interpretations by the ignorant. The simple teaching of the Messiah(Christ) was buried beneath the transgressors' evil behavior.

The Jews had become a society obsessed with rites and rules lacking all life and spirit. Apart from that, Judaism a tribal religion, did not carry a message to the world nor a summons to other nations nor mercy to humanity at large.

Buddhism, a religion widespread in India and Central Asia, was transformed into outright paganism. Altars were built and images of the Buddha set up wherever it went.
Hinduism, the basic religion of India, is distinguished by its millions of idols and gods, and by the unjust separation that exists between its castes, discrimination between the castes being a harsh reality of daily life.

The Arabs also suffered from a paganism and idol-worship of the most abhorrent kind that had no parallel, even in pagan Hindu India. They were involved in shirk and adopted gods other than Allah. Every tribe, region or city had a particular idol. Indeed, every house had a private idol. Inside the Ka'bah, the house which Ibrahim (peace be upon him) had built for the worship of Allah alone, and in its courtyard, stood three hundred and sixty idols


Idol-worship in Makkah

The Quraysh continued to hold to the religion of Ibrahim and Isma'il, glorifying the creed of tawhid and the worship of Allah alone, until Amr ibn Luhayy became their chief. He was the first to deviate from the religion of Isma'il and to set up idols which he encouraged people to worship. Once he had travelled from Makkah to Syria on business where he saw people worshipping idols. He was so impressed that he brought some idols back to Makkah and set them up, commanding the people there to venerate them.

Traditionally some people would take a few stones from the Haram, the sanctuary, with them when they travelled from Makkah as a token of respect for the holy spot. This led to the day when they began to worship any stones they liked. Later generations lost track of the reasons why stones were originally venerated and the Quraysh were happy to worship stone idols just like the people were doing in surrounding countries.


The Prophet is sent to the Arabian peninsula
Allah chose the Arabs to receive the call of Islam and to convey it to the furthest corners of the world. These people were simple-hearted with no complicated ideologies which would have been difficult to remove. While the Greeks, Persians and people of India were arrogant about their many sciences, their fine literature and their splendid civilisation, the Arabs followed only simple traditions related to their desert existence. It was not difficult to sweep these away and replace them with a fresh vision.
The Arabs were in a natural state. When it was difficult for them to grasp the truth, they fought it. However, when the covering was removed from their eyes, they welcomed the new beginning and, having embraced it, would risk their lives for it. They were honest and trustworthy, hardy, courageous and fine horsemen. They also possessed a will of iron.


In Makkah, a city in the Arabian peninsula, was the Ka'bah which had been built by Ibrahim and Isma'il (peace be upon them). In it, Allah alone was to be worshipped and it was to be a centre for calling people to tawhid for all time. Tawhid, meaning the Oneness of Allah, is in sharp contrast with the worship of idols.
The first house established for people was that at Makkah, a blessed place and a guidance for the worlds. (3:97)

ALLAH KNOW BEST

seriously, i want to say thumbs up to u for the bravery and goodwill you have shown in responding to this topic. i had almost given up hope of getting a reply and almost concluded that the muslims on nairaland dont know their religion so well as to be able to educate others.

¤and again thanks for answering the op directly instead of engaging in the usual tactics most muslims employ to dribble and end up not answering exactly wat is asked

ayenny02:
ISLAM is arabic word which means surrender to d will of God, Those who practice religion of islam are called Muslim. Muslim is an arabic word and which means worshiper of none except Allah alone.

Also Allah is an Arabic word which means God, Supreme Being. In Hebrew language God means ELOHA but jews use plural form ELOHIM. It is not subject to plurality or gender. It is confusing to use the word God as many English-speaking Christian still consider Jesus as God, even the word creator is also confusing, as many christians still maintain that jesus had created the world.

If u can access to Arabic Bible that those christian arabs are using, you will see that God in that bible translate to Allah

ok

Not only the name of Allah is strange, but also the way muslims worship Allah with ablution, bowing, kneeling, prostration and fasting is strange to non-muslim, but not strange to all prophets.

While ablution (washing of face, arms, feet and moistening of d hair) prior to worship is abandoned by modern christian, it is still required by muslim and previous prophets, as seen in the following passages of the Bible: Exodus 40:31-32
31 And Moses and Aaron and his sons washed their hands and their feet thereat:
32 When they went into the tent of the congregation, and when they came near unto the altar, they washed; as the Lord commanded Moses..

you picked only one thing that they did and left the others.
so lets extract some points from Exodus chapter 40.
verse 3:
and thou shalt put therein the ARK OF THE TESTIMONY.
verse 4:.
...and thou shalt shalt bring in the candle stick and light the lambs thereof.
verse 6:
and thou shalt set the ALTER OF THE BURNT OFFERING.
verse 9
And thou shalt take the ANOINTING OIL.
VERSE 23:
And he set the BREAD in order upon it verse 27 and he BURNT SWEET INCENSE thereupon

in that chapter there are other things Moses and Aaron did that muslims dont do. did they deviate from islam by doing such things
or were these parts also corrupted.

if Moses and Aaron were muslims THEN I PUT IT TO YOU that you and Muhammed are not muslims because evidently you dont make use of alters, candles, anointing oil, arks, bread, burnt offerings etc in your religion. and you seriously need to repent and turn away from your false religion
[/quote]

John 13:12-15
12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?
13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

this verse is talking about washing SOMEONE ELSES feet. do muslims wash their fellow muslims feet. NO [VERDICT: yu failed on this one. try again]

ayenny02:
Although Paul made many changes in jesus teaching, he was still faithful in respect to ablution(purification) as seen in Act 21:26;
26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

Paul is a jew. and was practising wat Moses told them to do. refer to my above verse. by the way paul entered a temple and not a mosque which does not have a priest, alters,. candles etc. [verdict: failed]

ayenny02:
Muslim Women perform their prayer with their head covered as 1 cor 11:5, 6 and 13;
5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?

can covering hair be the only sign of being a muslim. pls show me where Paul talked about Allah, where he went to ramadan, where he talked about pilgrimage. is it possible for someone to be a muslim and only engage one pillar of islam and avoid the others [VERDICT: FAILED]

ayenny02:
Muslims worship with bowing, kneeling, prostration and without shoes as done by previous Prophet;
Psalm 95:6
6 O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the Lord our maker.

bowing down only

ayenny02:
Joshua 5:14
14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?

Nehemiah 8:4-6
4 And Ezra the scribe stood upon a pulpit of wood, which they had made for the purpose; and beside him stood Mattithiah, and Shema, and Anaiah, and Urijah, and Hilkiah, and Maaseiah, on his right hand; and on his left hand, Pedaiah, and Mishael, and Malchiah, and Hashum, and Hashbadana, Zechariah, and Meshullam.

5 And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people; (for he was above all the people and when he opened it, all the people stood up:

6 And Ezra blessed the Lord, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped the Lord with their faces to the ground.

Matthew 4:10
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

is it only bowing down that makes you a muslim. you didnt show where Jesus went to mecca. where he fasted ramadan

QUESTION: WAS ABRAHAM A JEWS OR CHRISTIAN? IF THERE WAS NO ANY CONTRARY VIEW, THEN QURAN IS TRUTH

yes Abraham was not a christian.
Abraham named his son IshmaEL after El his God. now tell me do you worship El.
the last time i checked it was the Jews worship a God they call El/ELOHIM and christianity coming from a jewish background worship that same God

let me at this point highlight that you are seriously running on assumptions(non facts). Most of your points are hinged on assumptions and It is wrong to live on assumptions.

For example your claim that other religions started out on a pure note but later deviated is unfounded.
Let it be clear to you that those religions budha, hindu etc started out exactly as what you can see them doing today. You can google hindu and budha and see wat the originators brought. Nothing has changed. They started out as pagan and are very much pagan today.[go on on google and search for history of budha,hindu]
The same can be said for christianity. There were no deviations but only that in the case of christianity there has always been misinterpretations and heresies but no utter deviation from the main stem which is Jesus and what he came to do.

2. I dont buy the idea that jewish historical stories were muslims in the way muslims are today.

For one, the bible from which you get your stories is being accused to be not 100% truth. But you seem to bypass this logic when you delve into it to acquire stories that support ur viewpoints. NOW HOW CAN YOU TRULY POINT OUT TO US THAT THOSE PARTS OF THE BIBLE YOU PASTED ARE NOT AMONG THE CORRUPTED PART OF THE BIBLE. Including all those other parts that alledgedly point to Jesus saying Allah, Mohamed beinng comforter etc.. Your answer as expected would be based on assumption.

This is what i want you to know. If the bible is not true then you are not to take ANY part of it. For as it is, you cannot tell which parts are corrupted or not. for example the verse you use to point that Jesus mentioned Muhameds name also talks about God being a father yet Muhamed says God does not beget..so is the part that says "i will pray the father" corrupted while the part that says "to send you the comforter" not corrupted.

But this is my position. The bible is true allround that is why u can guiltlessly open it and believe some parts of it. But you have to do better. You have to accept all of it. its either you take all or you take non..something that is polluted cannot be trusted. But when u find ursef trusting some part you are being deceptive to yourself. I will be opening a thread on this bible corruption issue soonest.

seconndly there are some other things these exampls of urs from the bible did that muslims dont do today. that disqualifys them also there are some thinngs moslems do today that they didnt do..these exampls you bring from the bible did not do ALL the points rasied in the Op and as such cannot pass for muslims..


The available evidence from the bible does not in any part show us any of these early muslims derived from the bible worshipping any entity known as Allah. The bible gives us the many terms referring to God and never ever used the word Allah. There was no place showing where these jewish patriachs calling their God Allah..instead they referred to their God as Elohim, Yahweh..
Allah being an arabic word would not have been pronounced by hebrew speaking jews. The Allah as represented in quran is in contrast to the God as represented in the bible.


3. we have EVIDENCE of what happened in the Kabba before Mohamed came but there is no evidence that a one God was worshipped there. From this i can conclude that Mohamed speculated/assumed against any evidence that a one God was once worshipped in Kabba . Its an assumption because he was not in the time of Abraham to have known what Abraham did

history has it that kabba was a place of idolatory during the early life of Muhammad and you attest to this.that same history has it that Allah was one of the dieties worshipped there. At this point history stops and never tells us about Abraham and Ismael building any Kabba. But one thing we know Muhammed assumed that it was Abraham and Ishmael that built it as he was not there at the time and the people at the time did not have knowledge of such. So i can say he assumed but ofcos from an alledged revelation.

another reason why i can safely say Muhammed assumed is that once upon a time he changed the direction of prayer to Jerusalem and then back to Mecca. if he was so sure that Abram built that Kabba why would he change direction of praying from what God authorized Abraham to build

4. I can conclude that there were no muslims before Muhamad in arabia becos of the following reasons.
A. At the time of Muhammad early life. Idol worship was predominant in the Kabba. Most of the rituals undertaken by muslims today were actually practised by those idol worshipers such as circumbulating the kabba, kissing of stone etc
B.. there is no evidence of any group of people worshipping in mosques before Mohamed. Rather the people that were doing some of these things such pilgrimage, kissing stone., going round kabba were actually idol worshippers.
C. Muhamads fathers name was. Abdallah. . Was his grandfather who named his father a muslim. No he was pagan and he named his son after his pagan god. There is a story
From the above we see that there were no Muslims before Muhammad came. Muhammad started a new religion.

Muhammed started a religion but his new religiion eliminated some aspects of idol worship such as the associating of idols with Allah and left some..such as the circumbulating of kabba, the kissing of stone etc.

.

Those statement are fallacy. Thus it lacks an authoritative reference. It was those christian that inserted the noblest name "Allah" into the names of the Arabian gods.

Allah the Almighty is an idol in the common sense of d christian as shown in the statements. If all christian agree with those statement, then all of them, have agreed that Jesus Christ is a son of an idol.
This is confirmed in the Arabic translation of john 3:16 in the Bible published by the Gideons Int. Let us read as follows:

"For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life"

The Arabic translation of the above by the christian bible themselves is as below:
16 فَقَدْ أحَبَّ اللهُ العالَمَ كَثِيْراً، حَتَّى إنَّهُ قَدَّمَ ابْنَهُ الوَحِيْدَ، لِكَيْ لا يَهلِكَ كُلُّ مَنْ يُؤْمِنُ بِهِ، بَلْ تَكُونُ لَهُ الحَياةُ الأبَدِيَّةُ.


The point of interest in the above John 3:16 is that the christian translated God to Allah. Then, is Allah an idol or God?

The statement is not true at all based on four cogent points as below
Point one: Abdullah is a son of Abdul-muttolid, Abdul-l-Muttolib is a son of Haashim. Haashim is a son of Abdul-l-Munaaf. Abdul-l-Munaaf is a son Qusoyy. If it is automatic that every name attached to the prefix "Abdul" denotes an idol or god being worshipped by the concerned family, then Muttolib shall be the name of god that his father, Haashim worshipped. Also, if it is authentic that every name attached to the prefix "Abdul" denotes an idol or god worshipped by the concerned family, then Manaf shall be the name of god that is father, Qasayy worshipped. Neither Muttolib nor Manaf was a god of the arabs. So, whenever a compound name is made up of "Abdul" and another noun, it is either in sense of a worshipper and what or Who being worshipped, or in the senses of ther thing, as in the case of abdul-muttolib and Abdul-Manaaf. But the case Abdul-muttolib naming his son Abdul-llah has ni authoritative reference which indicates that Abdul-Muttolib named his son Abdul-llah because he worshipped Allah, true God.
Neither Abdul-l-Muttalib nor Abdul-llah worship Allah. Let us now know more abt how abdul-muttolid was named that compound noun, as in reference of Ar-Rashheq Al-Makhum (The sealed Nectar) vol 1, pages 51-52:


His father was Hāshim ibn `Abd Manāf and his mother was Salmah bint `Amr from the Banū Najjār tribe in Yathrib (later called, Madinah). On his father's side he belonged to the distinguished Banū Hāshim clan, a subgroup of the Quraish tribe of Makkah which traced their genealogy to Ismā'īl and Ibrāhīm. His father died while doing business in Gaza, before he was born.

He was given the name "Shaybah" meaning 'the ancient one' or 'white-haired' for the streak of white through his jet-black hair

After his father's death he was raised in Yathrib with his mother and her family until about the age of eight, when his uncle Muttolib went to see him and asked his mother Salmah bint `Amr to entrust Shaybah to his care. Salmah was unwilling to let her son go and Shaybah refused to leave his mother without her consent.

Upon first arriving in Makkah, the people assumed the unknown child was Muttalib's slave, giving him the name `Abdu'l-Muttalib (slave of Muttalib). When Muttalib died, Shaybah succeeded him as the chief of the Banū Hāshim clan.

Can you see why Arabs called Shaebah, Abdul-Muttalib; they thought he was a slave purchased by Al-Muttolib, not that Muttolid is a god or idol. Any contrary view is therefore null and void.

Point two: Whoever worships Allah must be a muslim. Abdul-l-Muttalib was never a Muslim. He was an idolater and died as an idolater.

The noblest name "Allah" is not uncommon among the arabian pagans. It is in their vocabulary. It is a name know to them since Prophet Adam (AS) was on the surface of land. More precisely, the Arabian pagans have fake ideas about Islam before the advent of the Prophet Muhammad (saw). This is so because Prophet Ismail (as), the father of the Arabs was a Muslim by religion.

So if any pagans Arab names his son Abdu-llah, it is not because he worships Allah, nor does it mean that such parent believes in Allah. But pagans Arab do so , because "Allah" is part of their vocabulary.

ayenny02: Those statement are fallacy. Thus it lacks an authoritative reference. It was those christian that inserted the noblest name "Allah" into the names of the Arabian gods.

Allah the Almighty is an idol in the common sense of d christian as shown in the statements. If all christian agree with those statement, then all of them, have agreed that Jesus Christ is a son of an idol.
This is confirmed in the Arabic translation of john 3:16 in the Bible published by the Gideons Int. Let us read as follows:

"For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life"

The Arabic translation of the above by the christian bible themselves is as below:
16 فَقَدْ أحَبَّ اللهُ العالَمَ كَثِيْراً، حَتَّى إنَّهُ قَدَّمَ ابْنَهُ الوَحِيْدَ، لِكَيْ لا يَهلِكَ كُلُّ مَنْ يُؤْمِنُ بِهِ، بَلْ تَكُونُ لَهُ الحَياةُ الأبَدِيَّةُ.


The point of interest in the above John 3:16 is that the christian translated God to Allah. Then, is Allah an idol or God?

its agood thing that you saw the truths in my first points about not using bible examples as early muslims and my point on the hindu/budha and as such you could not say anything on them. atleast i am making some progress with you.


the christian translation of hebrew God to Allah is clearly misguided.
The arabs before Mohammed knew their Allah as one that had relations(daughters and sons) with other gods even though they gave him a higher status. he was one of their gods. what Muhammed did was to repackage Allah as monoeisthic and referring to the creator.He fought against the use of relating Allah the cheif god with other gods. Mohameds influence was far reaching and so Allah came to be known as the creator God. so that is wat it is now to all Arabs. so there is the original initial meaning and the present day meaning. But Muhammad did not completely eradicate the rituals associated with these idols.. He allowed for the circumbulation of the kabba, kissing of stone, pilgrimage etc as was used by the pagans to be used by his followers

let me say it like this.
there is a particular village that worships so many gods but they refer to one particular idol as the cheif of these gods. they call this cheif god Sango. In their dialect Sango means cheif god but this cheif god was the father of other gods who had diferent other roles such as fertility, war, success etc. This cheif gods particular role was protection of the village. With time, someone came to the village and started telling them of an almighty God(not a small god) remeber this village refers to Sango as almighty since he is the chief. as people began to accept this visitors God. they began to refer to this new God as Sango since to them Sango represents cheif. so now they call this new God cheif/Sango. as generation pass by Sango is now generally accepted as the Almighty God. they replaced the Sango(idol)whose primary role is protection with Sango (God).creator God

the igbos are a clear example to this. Initially Chi was an igbo god. when christianity came the igbos now refer to Almighty God as Chi. when they say Chi ukwu(chukwu) it means big God to diferntiate him from other chis/gods. They also say chi neke (God that creates) to refer to this particular God that creates. The former diety was never worshipped as a creator.. so you see Chi has not always being used to refer to a creator God but a diety who had its main function and never claimed to create. but now Chi is being used as to refer to God the creator.

its just a situation of change in representations.

so Allah changed from a chief god with relations to Al Uzat etc to a monotheist creator God. but even this new concept of Allah as used by Muhammed does not fit into what Elohim/Yahweh represents.
there are so many reasons why i say this. but i will just give a few
1. Elohim is refered as father but Allah as represented by quran does not beget
2. Allah contradicts many things Elohim said.
3.. Allah seemed to endorse lust to his prophet by allowing him marry several wives. a prophet is supposed to be more sober and restrictive than ordinary followers.
4. Allah's worshippers still engage in rituals engaged by pre islamic pagans.


so the arabs used to refer to a cheif god hubal as Al-ilah(the god). but now they refer to a creator God as Al-ilah(the god) due to influence of islam. but the deity being refered to as a creator God is not the same as the creator God that has being known before. it seems to me that some other diety is impersonating, using the creator God title to attack the real creator God that has being before.(this explains why this impersonator is almost totally against the creator God that has been before and his worshippers. this explains why this impersonator has taken the holy site of the creator God that has been before. this explains why this impersonator has commanded his followers to curse, bomb, subject to second class status by paying jizyah the worshipers of this God that has been before).

like i told you in the other thread. you and Mohamed are not in the right religion the religion as practised by Moses and Aaron. You are not doing so many things Moses and Aaron did. They washed themselves yes but they also used arks, alters, anointing oils, Bread, incense, burnt offerings in their worship and this you are not doing. It means you have missed it.

Allow me to direct you to the people who still follow Moses. Yeah the Jews. We will begin with their religous books. Then from then we can move on.

After all i have said. Pls dont stay back in a wrong religion. I know it may be difficult but its a worthy price to get the real deal..

CHEERS.
$&¤~ deSika .....gladly at your service

ayenny02: The statement is not true at all based on four cogent points as below
Point one: Abdullah is a son of Abdul-muttolid, Abdul-l-Muttolib is a son of Haashim. Haashim is a son of Abdul-l-Munaaf. Abdul-l-Munaaf is a son Qusoyy. If it is automatic that every name attached to the prefix "Abdul" denotes an idol or god being worshipped by the concerned family, then Muttolib shall be the name of god that his father, Haashim worshipped.

i didnt say that every name attached to abdul is a god. pls try to comprehend what i write. i said that abdullah is points to an Allah before Mohamed came. how was this Allah worshiped. he was worshipped as a cheif idol/god who had son and daughter gods

Also, if it is authentic that every name attached to the prefix "Abdul" denotes an idol or god worshipped by the concerned family, then Manaf shall be the name of god that is father, Qasayy worshipped. Neither Muttolib nor Manaf was a god of the arabs. So, whenever a compound name is made up of "Abdul" and another noun, it is either in sense of a worshipper and what or Who being worshipped, or in the senses of ther thing, as in the case of abdul-muttolib and Abdul-Manaaf. But the case Abdul-muttolib naming his son Abdul-llah has ni authoritative reference which indicates that Abdul-Muttolib named his son Abdul-llah because he worshipped Allah, true God.

refer to my first response above.. abdullah means slave of Allah. he was tryinng to say his son would be or is a slave of Allah his cheif god

Neither Abdul-l-Muttalib nor Abdul-llah worship Allah.

so how did they come about the name Allah in abdullah.

Let us now know more abt how abdul-muttolid was named that compound noun, as in reference of Ar-Rashheq Al-Makhum (The sealed Nectar) vol 1, pages 51-52:


His father was Hāshim ibn `Abd Manāf and his mother was Salmah bint `Amr from the Banū Najjār tribe in Yathrib (later called, Madinah). On his father's side he belonged to the distinguished Banū Hāshim clan, a subgroup of the Quraish tribe of Makkah which traced their genealogy to Ismā'īl and Ibrāhīm. His father died while doing business in Gaza, before he was born.

He was given the name "Shaybah" meaning 'the ancient one' or 'white-haired' for the streak of white through his jet-black hair

After his father's death he was raised in Yathrib with his mother and her family until about the age of eight, when his uncle Muttolib went to see him and asked his mother Salmah bint `Amr to entrust Shaybah to his care. Salmah was unwilling to let her son go and Shaybah refused to leave his mother without her consent.

Upon first arriving in Makkah, the people assumed the unknown child was Muttalib's slave, giving him the name `Abdu'l-Muttalib (slave of Muttalib). When Muttalib died, Shaybah succeeded him as the chief of the Banū Hāshim clan.

Can you see why Arabs called Shaebah, Abdul-Muttalib; they thought he was a slave purchased by Al-Muttolib, not that Muttolid is a god or idol. Any contrary view is therefore null and void.

you can be a slave to a god and also to a man. abdul Muttolib means slave of Muttolib(a man) while abdullah means slave of Allah(a god). the name indicates who he is a slave to. i didnt say muttolib is a god

ayenny02: Point two: Whoever worships Allah must be a muslim. Abdul-l-Muttalib was never a Muslim. He was an idolater and died as an idolater.

you know what.. 1000likes for this post.. This is exactly wat am trying to tell you. As an idolater he names his son after his idolatrous god/God Allah. He cant name his son after another god. It has to be his own god. Except you can tell me that Allah in Abdullah means a person and not a diety. If Allah is a person then he named his son after a person. But no. Allah is a diety. He names his son after a diety..since he is an idolater his diety must be idolatrous too. I know it will dificult for you to accept. But this is the fact. An idolater named his son after his idol god.

The noblest name "Allah" is not uncommon among the arabian pagans. It is in their vocabulary. It is a name know to them since Prophet Adam (AS) was on the surface of land. More precisely, the Arabian pagans have fake ideas about Islam before the advent of the Prophet Muhammad (saw). This is so because Prophet Ismail (as), the father of the Arabs was a Muslim by religion.

So if any pagans Arab names his son Abdu-llah, it is not because he worships Allah, nor does it mean that such parent believes in Allah. But pagans Arab do so , because "Allah" is part of their vocabulary.

because Allah is part of their vocabulary as what?
Let me answer the question
Because Allah is part of their vocabulary as their diety. Remember they are pagans this means that their diety is a pagan diety.

so you can now see now that Mutalib is an idolater and served an pagan god. how do we know his diety. he names his son after his diety. this shows us that his pagan diety is Allah.
he is saying that his son would be a slave of his diety Allah. so he names him so.

its really simple to see bro. dont continue in this stuff. it originated from pagan.

please read this

One day when the Quraysh had assembled on a feast day to venerate and circumambulate the idol to which they offered sacrifices, this being a feast which they held annually, four men drew apart secretly and agreed to keep their counsel in the bonds of friendship. They were Waraqa b.Naufal, Ubaydullah b.Jahsh, whose mother was Umayma d.'Abdu'l Muttalib, Uthman b.al-Huwayrith and Zayd b.'Amr. They were of the opinion that their people had corrupted the religion of their father Abraham, and that the stone they went round was of no account, it could neither hear nor see, nor hurt nor help. ``Find yourselves a religion,'' they said, ``for by God you have none.'' So they went their ways seeking the ``Hanaffiya'' -- the religion of Abraham." (Ibn Ishaq, Life of Muhammad, tr. Guillaume, p. 99)

It is interesting that these four monotheists did not believe in the pagan ritual of circumabulating the Ka'aba. The ritual was later adopted by the Muslims.

pagan practises carried over by islam
Tawaf between Safa and Marwa

Doing Tawaf between Safa and Marwa is an Islamic ritual associated with the pilgrimage to Mecca. Safa and Marwa are two mounts, located at Mecca. This ritual entails Muslims walking frantically between the two mounts, seven times. This was originally a pagan pre-Islamic practice. Muhammad retained it for Islam, sanctioning it with yet another Qur'anic revelation .

Narrated 'Asim: I asked Anas bin Malik: "Did you use to dislike to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa?" He said, "Yes, as it was of the ceremonies of the days of the Pre-lslamic period of ignorance, till Allah revealed: 'Verily! (The two mountains) As- Safa and Al-Marwa are among the symbols of Allah. It is therefore no sin for him who performs the pilgrimage to the Ka'ba, or performs 'Umra, to perform Tawaf between them.' " (2.158) Sahih Bukhari 2:26:710

Clearly, the Hadith testifies that Muhammad merely adopted this pagan ceremony from the pre-Islamic "period of ignorance" and justified it with yet another convenient Qur'anic revelation. A myth was also created about Hagar running between these two mounts in search of water until she found the Zamzam Well . Even if this story were true, why is this reason for people to run up and down between two mounts to please a god?

preislamic pagan practices carried over by islam

Worship at the Ka’aba According to the hadith, the Ka'aba in Mecca was a center of idol- worship, with the Ka'aba housing 360 idols:

Narrated 'Abdullah bin Masud: The Prophet entered Mecca and (at that time) there were three hundred-and-sixty idols around the Ka’aba. He started stabbing the idols with a stick he had in his hand and reciting: "Truth (Islam) has come and Falsehood (disbelief) has vanished." Sahih Bukhari 3:43:658

Prophet Muhammad discarded the 360 idols but retained for Islam, the Ka’aba with its Black Stone, justifying it with the claim that Abraham and Ishmael originally constructed it. However, there is no historical or archaeological evidence for the existence of the Ka’aba beyond a few hundred years before Muhammad's lifetime. In fact, Muhammad's own words disprove any connection he was attempting to make between Abraham, Ishmael and the Ka’aba. The Qur'an

. Prior to Islam the Kaaba of Mecca was covered in symbols representing the myriad demons , djinn , demigods , or simply tribal gods and other assorted deities which represented the polytheistic culture of pre-Islamic Arabia . It has been inferred from this plurality an exceptionally broad context in which mythology could flourish. [1] Many of the physical descriptions of the pre-Islamic gods are traced to idols , especially near the Kabba, which is asserted to have contained up to 360. [1] Gods The main god in the Arabian peninsula was Hubal ( Arabic: ﻞﺒﻫ), who is regarded as the most notable and chief of the gods. The Kaaba may have been dedicated to Hubal. [1] An idol of Hubal said to have been near the Kaaba is described as shaped like a human with the right hand severed and replaced with a golden hand. [2] The three daughters of Hubal, and chief goddesses of Meccan Arabian mythology, were Al-lāt , Al-‘Uzzá , and Manāt . Each is associated with certain domains and had shrines with idols located near Taif [3] which have been destroyed. [4] Allāt (Arabic : ﺕﻼﻟﺍ) or Al-lāt is the goddess associated with the underworld . [5] Al-‘Uzzá (Arabic : ﻯﺰﻌﻟﺍ) "The Mightiest One" or "The Strong" was an Arabian fertility goddess. She was called upon for protection and victory before war. [6] Manāt (Arabic : ﺓﺎﻨﻣ) was the goddess of fate, the Book of Idols describes her as the most ancient of all these idols. An idol of Manāt was erected on the seashore in the vicinity of al- Mushallal in Qudayd, between Medina and Mecca. The Aws and the Khazraj, as well as the inhabitants of Medina and Mecca and their vicinities, venerated Manāt and performed sacrifices before her idol, including offering their children. Pilgrimages of some Arabs, including the Aws, Khazraj, Yathrib and others, were not considered completed until they visited Manāt and shaved their heads. [7]
source: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabian_mythology

my purpose here is just to show you the truth

deSika: yes Abraham was not a christian.
Abraham named his son IshmaEL after El his God. now tell me do you worship El.
the last time i checked it was the Jews worship a God they call El/ELOHIM and christianity coming from a jewish background worship that same God

What is the religion of ibrahim when he was not christian?

What is the meaning of ELOHIM? Back with authoritative references

The Quraysh continued to hold to the religion of Ibrahim and Isma'il, glorifying the creed of tawhid and the worship of Allah alone, until Amr ibn Luhayy became their chief. He was the first to deviate from the religion of Isma'il and to set up idols which he encouraged people to worship. Once he had travelled from Makkah to Syria on business where he saw people worshipping idols. He was so impressed that he brought some idols back to Makkah and set them up, commanding the people there to venerate them.

IN CONQUERD OF MECCA, The Messenger of Allah got down from his camel when everything had calmed down. He went to the Ka'bah first and performed tawaf. Around the Ka'bah were three hundred and sixty idols. With a stick he was carrying he began to push them over, saying, 'The truth has come and falsehood has vanished away. Falsehood is ever vanishing.
Q (17: 81) 'The truth has come and falsehood originates not nor brings again.' (34: 49) The idols collapsed one by one, falling onto their faces. Pictures and statues were found in the Ka'bah and the Messenger of Allah ordered that they should also be destroyed.

deSika: . Prior to Islam the Kaaba of Mecca was covered in symbols representing the myriad demons , djinn , demigods , or simply tribal gods and other assorted deities which represented the polytheistic culture of pre-Islamic Arabia . It has been inferred from this plurality an exceptionally broad context in which mythology could flourish. [1] Many of the physical descriptions of the pre-Islamic gods are traced to idols , especially near the Kabba, which is asserted to have contained up to 360. [1] Gods The main god in the Arabian peninsula was Hubal ( Arabic: ﻞﺒﻫ), who is regarded as the most notable and chief of the gods. The Kaaba may have been dedicated to Hubal. [1] An idol of Hubal said to have been near the Kaaba is described as shaped like a human with the right hand severed and replaced with a golden hand. [2] The three daughters of Hubal, and chief goddesses of Meccan Arabian mythology, were Al-lāt , Al-‘Uzzá , and Manāt . Each is associated with certain domains and had shrines with idols located near Taif [3] which have been destroyed. [4] Allāt (Arabic : ﺕﻼﻟﺍ) or Al-lāt is the goddess associated with the underworld . [5] Al-‘Uzzá (Arabic : ﻯﺰﻌﻟﺍ) "The Mightiest One" or "The Strong" was an Arabian fertility goddess. She was called upon for protection and victory before war. [6] Manāt (Arabic : ﺓﺎﻨﻣ) was the goddess of fate, the Book of Idols describes her as the most ancient of all these idols. An idol of Manāt was erected on the seashore in the vicinity of al- Mushallal in Qudayd, between Medina and Mecca. The Aws and the Khazraj, as well as the inhabitants of Medina and Mecca and their vicinities, venerated Manāt and performed sacrifices before her idol, including offering their children. Pilgrimages of some Arabs, including the Aws, Khazraj, Yathrib and others, were not considered completed until they visited Manāt and shaved their heads. [7]
source: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabian_mythology

I known you go to anti-islam website to copy and paste ur fabricated and fallacy statement

Let me lecture u how the prophet destroyed al-Uzza, Manat, al-lat.

The Messenger of Allah sent groups of his Companions to destroy the idols standing round the Ka'bah. All of the idols were broken including al-Lat, al-Uzza, and Manat. He sent a crier to announce in Makkah, 'Whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day should destroy any idol in his house.' He also sent representatives to the surrounding tribes telling them to destroy their idols.

There were other idols in the Arabian Peninsula that the Arabs revered just as they revered the Ka`bah, besides the three idols that Allah mentioned in His Glorious Book. Allah mentioned these three here because they were more famous than the others.

“Have you then considered Allat and the ‘Uzza, and Manat, the third, the last? What! for you the males and for Him the females! This indeed is an unjust division! They are naught but names which you have named, you and your fathers; Allah has not sent for them any authority. They follow naught but conjecture and the low desires which (their) souls incline to; and certainly the guidance has come to them from their Lord”. [S?rah al-Najm:19-23]

An-Nasa'i recorded that Abu At-Tufayl said, "When the Messenger of Allah conquered Makkah, he sent Khalid bin Al-Walid to the area of Nakhlah where the idol of Al-`Uzza was erected on three trees of a forest. Khalid cut the three trees and approached the house built around it and destroyed it. When he went back to the Prophet and informed him of the story, the Prophet said to him,

(Go back and finish your mission, for you have not finished it.) Khalid went back and when the custodians who were also its servants of Al-`Uzza saw him, they started invoking by calling Al-`Uzza! When Khalid approached it, he found a naked woman whose hair was untidy and who was throwing sand on her head. Khalid killed her with the sword and went back to the Messenger of Allah , who said to him that was Al-`Uzza!''

Pls don't dodge my question: what was religion of ibrahim and what is the meaning of ELOHIM

ayenny02:
What is the religion of ibrahim when he was not christian?

What is the meaning of ELOHIM? Back with authoritative references

i answered you boy.

the religion of Abraham was not christianity. the jews worships the El that Abraham worship. as Abraham named his son IshmaEL. so Moses religion is derived from Abrahams relationship with God.

so my answer is this.
As Abraham was not a idol worshipper and also as at the time of Abraham there was no institionalised organised religion. its safe to say That Abraham had no religion with set down doctrines. ABRAHAM HAD A RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD. same with Adam.


#Abraham and Adam canot be said to be muslims why.
they didnt have mosques or temples. they didnt go to mecca. yes Adam didnt go to Mecca. they didnt fast in ramadan. they didnt pay zakat.. they didnt say "there is only one God and Muhammed is a prophet" are these not symbols of islam how could they have been muslim when they did not do this. if you say they can be muslims without doing this. then again all the people that do dont do these are muslims.

SUMMARY
Abrahams religion: Relationship with God
why
you must undertstand that man has become more developed over the years better than he was when he first started as Adam. Now people fly to distant countries in just days this was not the case with Adam, Abraham etc. this development includes Religion. as at when Adam started there was no religion. he had a Relationship with God. as time went on men began to seek ways of worshipping other spiritual entities. this now resulted in religions.. atleast you must agree that Adam didnt have any relationship with Mecca your most holy site as Kabba was built by Abraham. this means that atleast Adam didnt pray to or on any Kabba. so i can say your religion started with Abraham but not Adam so stop roping Adam into it..so you see from your records that religion evolved from Adam with no kabba to Abraham with Kabba.. this is not to say that i agree with such baseless assumptions. but just to let you know that the supposed religion of Adam was less developed than that of Abraham.. this explains why i say Adam,. Abraham didnt have a relgion. organised Religion started with Moses. but if you think otherwise show me where these guys upheld the five pillar of islam.

WHAT IS THE MEANING OF ELOHIM
Elohim means God

<< 429 430. elohim 431 >>

elohim: God, god
Original Word: םיִהֹלֱא
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: elohim
Phonetic Spelling: (el-o-heem')
Short Definition: God
Word Origin pl. of eloah
Definition God, god

NAS Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible with Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries Copyright © 1981, 1998 by The Lockman Foundation All rights reserved Lockman.org

#take note that i answered you. pls return the favour and answer me. can you show me where Adam and Abraham
1.. recited "there is no God but Allah, and Muhammed is his last prophet"
2.. where they went to mecca on pilgrimage. especially Adam as Abraham is reputed to have built kabba
3. where they fasted this one is important IN RAMADAN
4.. Where they payed zakat and to who
5. where they prayed five times

i known you go to anti-islam website to copy and paste ur fabricated and fallacy statement Let me lecture u how the prophet destroyed al-Uzza, Manat, al- lat.

do you what. you are actually confirming wat i said. we are not saying difernt things at all

i say there were idols in kabba before Muhammed
and you say
Muhamed destroyed the idols.

so both of us agree that there were idols.. it does not help you. because as it is if idols were worshipped in your Kabba. one of them is the stone that you kiss. one of them is the Allah that you worship. truth. this is truth. there were idols. there were idols. there were idols in kabba.. i feel like shouting it to you from here.. Muhamed destroyed some but not all.. he retained Allah. he retained black stone. he retained kabba. he retained circumbulation. he retained pilgrimage yes the pagans used to come for pilgrimage. the truth i feel like shouting it out to you. think about it wat does kissing a stone got to do with God. you kiss what you cherish. its idolatry bro. its idolatry. you stone Shaitan year in year out. ask yourself. why am i stoning this shaitan everytime. is it not supposed to have died as a result of a million stones. if its stil living then your stoning is ineffective. why should you continue doing an inneffective thing. the truth. my brother you need to accept it.. your religion is idolatry.

do you know that Muhamed ate food presented to idols..
Narrated 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle said that he met Zaid bin 'Amr Nufail at a place near Baldah and this had happened before Allah's Apostle received the Divine Inspiration. Allah's Apostle presented a dish of meat (that had been offered to him by the pagans) to Zaid bin 'Amr, but Zaid refused to eat of it and then said (to the pagans), "I do not eat of what you slaughter on your stone altars (Ansabs) nor do I eat except that on which Allah's Name has been mentioned on slaughtering." (Sahih al- Bukhari 7:407 )

this is bukhari hadith saying Muhammed presented an idolatrous food to Zaid. it seems Zaid is more pious than Muhammed

read this

"And when the apostle of God had finished his period of seclusion and returned (to Mecca), in the first place he performed the circumambulation of the Ka'ba, AS WAS HIS WONT. While he was doing it , Waraqa met him and said, ‘O son of my brother, tell me what thou hast seen and heard.'" (Sirat Rasulullah, trans. Alfred Guillaume, The Life of Muhammad [Oxford University Press, Karachi], p. 107;

AS WAS HIS WONT means that before his revelations he used to perform circumbulation as a pagan.

i write this with so much passionn in my heart for you..

do you know that budhas and hindus. the religion you accuse of idolatory also engages in circumbulation.

do you know that Zoroastrians an idolatrous group also recite prayers five times after ablutions.

if you have read all i have written and still continue in your idolatory. then am afraid for you.

.