isale_gan2:

You're well intentioned, but you lose your rag a little too quickly for a self-identified "researcher" engaged in a dispassionate scholarly debate.

Sorry, but history is a passionate topic for those interested. We do not take kindly to people airing unresearched views. A scholarly debate must involve researched findings, with verifiable, credible sources and links, not unfounded statements and biased 'support' for one side. Pagan has provided not one single link or resource to back any of his views. I have provided COUNTLESS sources. His first words on this thread to me was ''shut up and stop deceiving people''. Then you come in and say you support him, saying ''he makes more sense''. Based on what? His bold letter insults? That's why we lose our rag!!

Mad Cow: See as ehn humble..

If to say na today Nigerian Police arrest am, this picture for look something like this;

[img]http://4.bp..com/-1qfBaAEUq4o/UUx4mSJ-AbI/AAAAAAAAPEM/qgJ7evejyPE/s400/nigerian+police+arrest+abuja.jpg[/img]

_{**Oba shouting OGHENE BIKO all the way**}

Since you Urhobo I dont expect you to know anything about royalty

Rossikk:

None of these men has written any groundbreaking books on ancient African history. How many of them have even gone beyond Nigeria in their research and works? How many of them researched Egypt, Nubia, Kush, Kerma, and the Nile Valley civilizations? African history is not just about Yoruba, Igbo, Bini, starting from the 1800s. This is the period the likes of Kenneth Dike, Michael Crowder and co deal with. Did they research the great African migrations from north to south thousands of years ago following the desertification of the Sahara and foreign invasions culminating in the Arab invasions of the 7th century? Nope. But the people you call ''akata historians'' go the whole hog in African history, to the very beginnings, and do not limit themselves to Nigeria or to the 17th century onwards like your sources. Your sources are EXTREMELY LIMITED in the scope and depth of African history they cover This is why we cannot name a single work by any of them that has any real following.

Cheikh Anta Diop, author of The African Origin of Civilization was a Senegalese historian by the way, and he went ALL THE WAY BACK and defended his findings before his global peers at UNESCO in 1974. His findings based on groundbreaking evidence his peers were unable to dispute, were that the Ancient Egyptians were black Africans and that any history of Africa was incomplete without linking it to the great civilization of EGYPT.

In the context of Nigerian history, Egypt or any other Nile Valley civilisation is irrelevant as far as we know. The only pre-400 historical theory we can make for Nigeria are the Sudan migrations, Nok, and the Bantu expansion, all other Near-East centric stuff does not concern Nigerian history therefore there is no need for Nigerian historians to start diffusionist theories of Igala from Memphis. Many Nigerian historians do not care what the so called race of the ancient Egyptians was because it makes no difference to Nigerian history. You could say Black nationalism isn't very big in Africa in general because everyone already knows their ethnicity, unlike many in the diaspora, and relevant and mostly reliable West African historians do not necessarily look down on West African history in favor of the Nile. Nigerian historians aren't looking for an empire 2000 miles away and from 3000 years ago to boost their historical and cultural esteem. Anyone who makes absolute claims that Nigerian cultures were directly influenced by ancient Egyptians is usually not looked at as reliable. The first people to claim this Nile-Niger connections were European missionaries and colonial officials who held strong diffusionist theories.

It is patronising to suggest that Nigerian historians do not venture further back than 1800 because we know that is not true. Most of the arguments based on ancestry in Nigeria are set well before 1500 in most cases. Nigerian historians are for the most part confident in their own ancestors accomplishments which rivals and may even precede the so-called ancient Egyptians. If ancient Egyptians had met pre-1800 'Nigerians' they would have considered them as foreign as Libyans and Babylonians, maybe even more so, just like they saw Nubians as foreign, so it makes no difference to Nigerians/tropical Africans what their accomplishments were.

You said it all. Thanks for you and pagan and others who reject this dumb afro- centrist theories, blah blah we are all from Egypt or have been influenced by them nonsense

Rossikk:

None of these men has written any groundbreaking books on ancient African history. How many of them have even gone beyond Nigeria in their research and works? How many of them researched Egypt, Nubia, Kush, Kerma, and the Nile Valley civilizations? African history is not just about Yoruba, Igbo, Bini, starting from the 1800s. This is the period the likes of Kenneth Dike, Michael Crowder and co deal with. Did they research the great African migrations from north to south thousands of years ago following the desertification of the Sahara and foreign invasions culminating in the Arab invasions of the 7th century? Nope. But the people you call ''akata historians'' go the whole hog in African history, to the very beginnings, and do not limit themselves to Nigeria or to the 17th century onwards like your sources. Your sources are EXTREMELY LIMITED in the scope and depth of African history they cover This is why we cannot name a single work by any of them that has any real following.

Cheikh Anta Diop, author of The African Origin of Civilization was a Senegalese historian by the way, and he went ALL THE WAY BACK and defended his findings before his global peers at UNESCO in 1974. His findings based on groundbreaking evidence his peers were unable to dispute, were that the Ancient Egyptians were black Africans and that any history of Africa was incomplete without linking it to the great civilization of EGYPT.

You need to rid yourself of the arrogance of a foool. You are nowhere near as well-read as you seem to think you are. Insulting Basil Davidson and Martin Bernal while propping up your upstart, unknown local champion historians?

Ridiculous. As for the African migrations, there were several, and the Arab one was only the last. Prior to that there were Greek, Roman, and Assyrian invasions. These always led to southward migrations by African populations. Go and read Olumide Lucas. This has been the most enlightened Nigerian historical chronicler in my view. He wrote The Religion of the Yorubas. In that book, he traces the Yorubas' history straight to ancient Egypt, using a variety of proofs comprising oral and written history, artefacts, and linguistics. He even found evidence of hieroglyphs in Yorubaland. There is a lot you need to learn..

Some of the authors mentioned by the poster Ola Johnson have published classic works on African history and all of them have published important work on African history. And both Basil Davidson (in several of his books) and Cheikh Anta Diop (in his book Precolonial Black Africa), have cited work by some of those scholars.

PAGAN 9JA:



so you think that trash by basil davidson and martin bernal is GROUNDBREAKING!!! LMFAOOO!!!
The African scholars were interested in their own histories, not digging up someone elses histories. This is why they have more reliable sources, since they concentrated on certain points which those akatas were incapable of doing, mostly biblically educated nutcases. WTF? Are you referring to the BAntu migrations? THose didnt take place from Egypt, you deluded man! THere is fossil evidence from the KEnyan/Tanzanyan BAsins that predate evolution itself. The foreign invasions by the Arabs is of no significance. It took place only as far as the Northern Sahel and the MAghreb. It had no displacing effect on the current Tribal Populations of Nigeria, except maybe certian groups of Fula.

STOP FOOLING YOURSELF.

Davidson did not write "trash." You should read some of his books before commenting on them. I think you may have assumed he was a hard core hyper-diffusionist or something because of the fact that Rossike mentioned him, but he wasn't.

Bernal is not really a historian of Africa, but just someone who put forward a particular theory about there being much more non-European influence on ancient Greece than was usually acknowledged - a view he is certainly not alone in holding - and although he didn't marshal up enough direct evidence for all his claims, he made some interesting and plausible arguments for some of them. At the time his book was first published there was even less acknowledgement of significant non-European influence on ancient Greece than there is now, so it met with some additional controversy beyond what was merited by the contents of the books themselves, but the debate over his work is actually still ongoing, and it's certainly not the case that the basic idea of his thesis (of significant Afroasiatic influence on the Mediterranean) is really so strange or implausible.

I hate to say this; but I somewhat agree with everything Rossik said on this thread.

Cheikh Anta Diop and Dr. Chancellor Williams gave you lot a "Bible" about your history and where your ancestors came from, yet you white-washed Eurocentric never-proud-of-your-blackness coons are still hanging on to the Eurocentric lies and a Nigeria, or West Africa that had no human habitat, up until 1500BCE. SMFDH at these coons!

The Egypt theory doesnt make any sense..it is impossible, stop dreaming , we have no connection up there. Let's end these bogus claims and this cheap and dumb afro centrism, be proud of your tribe/ethnicity great achievements or not, recognition or not....

We are not one and have never been one ..so how come we suddenly come from the same place or are influenced by a foreign empire.

ezeagu:

In the context of Nigerian history, Egypt or any other Nile Valley civilisation is irrelevant as far as we know. The only pre-400 historical theory we can make for Nigeria are the Sudan migrations, Nok, and the Bantu expansion, all other Near-East centric stuff does not concern Nigerian history therefore there is no need for Nigerian historians to start diffusionist theories of Igala from Memphis. Many Nigerian historians do not care what the so called race of the ancient Egyptians was because it makes no difference to Nigerian history. You could say Black nationalism isn't very big in Africa in general because everyone already knows their ethnicity, unlike many in the diaspora, and relevant and mostly reliable West African historians do not necessarily look down on West African history in favor of the Nile. Nigerian historians aren't looking for an empire 2000 miles away and from 3000 years ago to boost their historical and cultural esteem. Anyone who makes absolute claims that Nigerian cultures were directly influenced by ancient Egyptians is usually not looked at as reliable. The first people to claim this Nile-Niger connections were European missionaries and colonial officials who held strong diffusionist theories.

It is patronising to suggest that Nigerian historians do not venture further back than 1800 because we know that is not true. Most of the arguments based on ancestry in Nigeria are set well before 1500 in most cases. Nigerian historians are for the most part confident in their own ancestors accomplishments which rivals and may even precede the so-called ancient Egyptians. If ancient Egyptians had met pre-1800 'Nigerians' they would have considered them as foreign as Libyans and Babylonians, maybe even more so, just like they saw Nubians as foreign, so it makes no difference to Nigerians/tropical Africans what their accomplishments were.

amen. I don't get the obsession with ancient Egypt, we existed before them and still exist after them. Empire/civilizations come and go ...reducing a whole continent esp a diverse continent like Africa to ancient Egypt is laughable.

shymexx: I hate to say this; but I somewhat agree with everything Rossik said on this thread.

Cheikh Anta Diop and Dr. Chancellor Williams gave you lot a "Bible" about your history and where your ancestors came from, yet you white-washed Eurocentric never-proud-of-your-blackness coons are still hanging on to the Eurocentric lies and a Nigeria, or West Africa that had no human habitat, up until 1500BCE. SMFDH at these coons!

Cheikh Anta Diop or whoever wrote next to nothing as far as I can see about southern Nigerians, so there is no bible on anyones history here at least. These writers came at a time when there was a big afrocentric push to prove that Africans had civilisations that were basically fashioned in the same style as European ones, with the intent to show that the African was as intelligent because they could fit into Eurocentric notions of intelligence. The Eurocentric lies you should be challenging are those that claim that your ancestors accomplishments all hail from the near east and that without ancient Egyptians, which none of the southern Nigerians ever knew or cared about (and the same is the truth today), there'd be no civilisation in West Africa.

Everyone who believes in this mess can take their Egyptians and their "bible" and stop trying to force false ancestry on everyone else who are fine with who they are. After all, before Europeans arrived did any southern Nigerian have knowledge of an Egypt? There goes the so called Eurocentricity. If the Egyptians existed they'd mock your 'barbaric' selves for trying to history-jack in order to be in their pharaohnic league. The same Egyptians that smitted the Nubians just like the Libyans? Nonsense.

isale_gan2: I respect Rossike for being a patriotic Nigerian and a Pan-Africanist, but in this debate, Pagan makes more sense. I know many who hold this Egyptian/Black view, but I am not convinced - no offense.
BTW, is Rossike's stance similar to Morpheus' view? Or do Morpheus' posts usually deal with racial classifications without any commentary about sub-Saharan peoples' transplant from North Africa?



Very sick and disgusting comment. If you're African at all, go and say the bolded to anyone in your family, if you dare.

For your own peace of mind, please do not have Black or half-Black children. Do like Michael Jackson and get white sperm and egg together or simply adopt any other race of children but Black.

i beg to differ, Rossike has presented his points well. how come the Greeks attest to the color of the Egyptian skin @pagan no offense but i think it is a imaginary argument to claim that historian can't be eye witness, when i read that i could only think of one phrase ''what tha f.uck''??

blocker: Nellaluv The Oba was not arrested and exiled in the 19th century but 20th century (1914). But ur post good no mind me.

the oba died in 1914 he wasn't arrested in 1914

ezeagu:
Cheikh Anta Diop or whoever wrote next to nothing as far as I can see about southern Nigerians, so there is no bible on anyones history here at least. These writers came at a time when there was a big afrocentric push to prove that Africans had civilisations that were basically fashioned in the same style as European ones, with the intent to show that the African was as intelligent because they could fit into Eurocentric notions of intelligence. The Eurocentric lies you should be challenging are those that claim that your ancestors accomplishments all hail from the near east and that without ancient Egyptians, which none of the southern Nigerians ever knew or cared about (and the same is the truth today), there'd be no civilisation in West Africa.

Everyone who believes in this mess can take their Egyptians and their "bible" and stop trying to force false ancestry on everyone else who are fine with who they are. After all, before Europeans arrived did any southern Nigerian have knowledge of an Egypt? There goes the so called Eurocentricity. If the Egyptians existed they'd mock your 'barbaric' selves for trying to history-jack in order to be in their pharaohnic league. The same Egyptians that smitted the Nubians just like the Libyans? Nonsense.

No, what Cheikh Anta Diop was to prove all liars wrong about the origin of the Egyptian/Nile-Valley civilisation and how quintessentially African it's. By using scientific methods. And yeah, that's an African "Bible." If Europe can lay claims to the Greeks and Romans - why can't we claim Egypt as well? Also, the source of the Egyptian civilisation is from both Nubia and Kush - and most Southern Nigerian tribes are of Nubian origins.

You need to stop being myopic and look at the bigger picture. How are we sure that some of the people in present day Nigeria didn't migrate from there, after the different invasions by foreigners? Most of the people who built that civilisation migrated towards inner-Africa. So where are these people?

They might have "smitted" the Nubians, but the fact that they never fought any war with their Nubians neighbours like they did with other invaders - Nubia being the of their renaissance after every invasion, should tell you everything you need to know.

Also, I see you omitted Dr. Chancellor Williams from your rebuttal.

Ubenedictus: i beg to differ, Rossike has presented his points well. how come the Greeks attest to the color of the Egyptian skin @pagan no offense but i think it is a imaginary argument to claim that historian can't be eye witness, when i read that i could only think of one phrase ''what tha f.uck''??

I like Pagan - but he's absolutely clueless on this subject matter.

Till any Nigerian tribe can prove to me that their ancestors were created in Nigeria, and they didn't migrate from the North East, or East - then his argument is just utter nonsense!

anonimi: Is it not VERY TELLING that despite the reputation the Binis have about juju and plenty jazz and sacrifices the white colonial masters could have ordinary African police men arrest him.

Says a lot about belief in juju specifically but also about religions and SPIRITUAL things generally.

Time for Africans to focus on knowledge, analysis and science for growth without neglecting the HERITAGE/HISTORY/LEGACY aspects of our religions

i doubt those who are learned in the distinct and traditional acts of the royal family especially that of the ascension of the throne will agree will the above. those i know will argue that the oba would never have been a prisoner if he didn't surrender.

shymexx:

I like Pagan - but he's absolutely clueless on this subject matter.

Till any Nigerian tribe can prove to me that their ancestors were created in Nigeria, and they didn't migrate from the North East, or East - then his argument is just utter nonsense!

this is an interesting point, it seems the oldest or most ancient civilization in the place presently called Nigeria is the Nok civilization, this simply raises more question, where did the Nok guys come from

Ubenedictus: this is an interesting point, it seems the oldest or most ancient civilization in the place presently called Nigeria is the Nok civilization, this simply raises more question, where did the Nok guys come from

okay when you at it ask yoursf where did the ancient Egyptian come from?

Mudley313:



What I can deduce from physic's post and the bolded above is that, although it's debatable that obaseki actually directly betrayed ovonramwen, ovonranmwen's son-in-law ologbosere was definitely used as the scape goat...obaseki probably negotiated with the british to spare the kings life in exchange of forfeiting his crown; whether ovoramwen was decieved to come out of hiding is what i don't know, but at the end it was obaseki who got all the gains (from the local side) in the aftermath of the kingdom's destruction


Chief Agho Obaseki

Why the interest in the topic ? Do you happen to come from Edo ?

shymexx:

No, what Cheikh Anta Diop was to prove all liars wrong about the origin of the Egyptian/Nile-Valley civilisation and how quintessentially African it's. By using scientific methods. And yeah, that's an African "Bible." If Europe can lay claims to the Greeks and Romans - why can't we claim Egypt as well? Also, the source of the Egyptian civilisation is from both Nubia and Kush - and most Southern Nigerian tribes are of Nubian origins.

You need to stop being myopic and look at the bigger picture. How are we sure that some of the people in present day Nigeria didn't migrate from there, after the different invasions by foreigners? Most of the people who built that civilisation migrated towards inner-Africa. So where are these people?

They might have "smitted" the Nubians, but the fact that they never fought any war with their Nubians neighbours like they did with other invaders - Nubia being the of their renaissance after every invasion, should tell you everything you need to know.

Also, I see you omitted Dr. Chancellor Williams from your rebuttal.

Nobody said you can't claim Egypt and Somalia, but what you can't do is try and act like everyone in Nigeria came from Cairo. The comparison with the Greeks and Romans is invalid because obviously the whole of Europe was influenced by those civilisations, West Africa however was never in the sight of ancient Egyptians. It is untrue that most southern Nigerian groups are of Nubian origin and there are no such valid claims of descending from this place.

shymexx:

I like Pagan - but he's absolutely clueless on this subject matter.

Till any Nigerian tribe can prove to me that their ancestors were created in Nigeria, and they didn't migrate from the North East, or East - then his argument is just utter nonsense!

So the conclusion to unknown origins means that a particular came from Egypt? What kind of theory is that?

Ubenedictus: this is an interesting point, it seems the oldest or most ancient civilization in the place presently called Nigeria is the Nok civilization, this simply raises more question, where did the Nok guys come from

Nok people have a NE/Eastern origin.

shymexx:

Nok people have a NE/Eastern origin.

The people who did the uncovering don't even know what language they spoke, and you're claiming they came from a particular direction.

ezeagu:
Nobody said you can't claim Egypt and Somalia, but what you can't do is try and act everyone in Nigeria came from Cairo. The comparison with the Greeks and Romans are invalid because obviously the whole of Europe was influenced by those civilisations, West Africa however was never in the sight of ancient Egyptians. It is untrue that most southern Nigerian groups are of Nubian origin and there are no such valid claims of descending from this place.

How's the comparison with Romans and Greeks invalid? Isn't Egypt on the African continent? And were those two other civilisations in the Mediterranean and far from proper Europe? So why is Europe hell-bent on claiming them, yet we can't claim Egypt?

Well, it's well established that most Nigerian tribes that aren't proto-bantu migrated from the North East.

ezeagu:

So the conclusion to unknown origins means that a particular came from Egypt? What kind of theory is that?

No, use linguistic and migration pattern.

ezeagu:

The people who did the uncovering don't even know what language they spoke, and you're claiming they came from a particular direction.

That's the fact.

They migrated there and they didn't just drop from the sky.

shymexx:

How's the comparison with Romans and Greeks invalid? Isn't Egypt on the African continent? And were those two other civilisations in the Mediterranean and far from proper Europe? So why is Europe hell-bent on claiming them, yet we can't claim Egypt?

Well, it's well established that most Nigerian tribes that aren't proto-bantu migrated from the North East.

The only ones that can claim ancient Egypt are the modern day Copts. Stop trying to history-jack them in order to belong. You have no stake or claim. The Romans and Greeks have influenced the whole of Europe directly (Greeks literally defined and named Europe), while the Egyptians have never.

You can say proto-this, semi-that, it doesn't change the fact that none of the history of the near-east matches significantly with anything in southern Nigeria. I don't know where this north east established migration came from, maybe more diffusionist European essays? Leave Nubia and Egypt to the Egyptians and the Sudanese who can claim them rightfully. You will never hear a Nubian trying to link with your people.

^^^^When I asserted that most of you have been brain-washed by Eurocentric lies, you disagreed. However, you just proved my assertion right by posting a picture of Egypt during the rule of foreign invaders.

Why can't you post pictures of Egypt from the pre-dynasty periods to the 23rd dynasty when everyone that ruled Egypt was black?

You're a joker!!!

I bet Obama being the President of America also means all Americans are black, no?

ezeagu:

The Romans and Greeks have influenced the whole of Europe directly (Greeks literally defined and named Europe), while the Egyptians have never.

Wow! On the contrary, I believe the primacy of Egyptian civilisation over the Greeks is beyond question. Even college freshmen learn that, at the minimum, the Greeks borrowed a lot from Egypt. And these are facts stipulated by Oyinbos who still want us all to believe that "Western Civilisation" is all there is. Studying in an all-white university, we were all required to take Western Civ I & II, where they proceeded to laud it over us on how great the Europeans are, despite the fact that they're not all in the west geographically. Western by association, you know. But they still had to concede that Egypt was a precursor to the advancement of Greece.

About the Nok, I believe they were in what is now considered northern Nigeria.

shymexx:
How's the comparison with Romans and Greeks invalid? Isn't Egypt on the African continent? And were those two other civilisations in the Mediterranean and far from proper Europe? So why is Europe hell-bent on claiming them, yet we can't claim Egypt?

Well, it's well established that most Nigerian tribes that aren't proto-bantu migrated from the North East.

Like I said, I know a lot of people with concurring Egyptian/Middle Eastern origin theories of Yorubas and Africans in general. So, uh-hum! I no want wahala sha. I won't say, no, its not possible.

What do you think is the connection between Egyptian religious artifacts and Yoruba/Benin religious and royal artwork? What is the correlation? Did ancient West Africans pass it on northwards? Did 1st-4th century Egyptians teach Yorubas the style, did some West Africans bring it with them if truly they migrated from Egypt, etc? I'm sure you've seen the similarity - the looted Bini pieces, the terra cotta Egyptian style and the Yoruba bust in my profile from the 5th-8th century.

History never lies and justice never sleeps
Long live the Bini kingdom
Oba gha atokpere ise

Ubenedictus: i doubt those who are learned in the distinct and traditional acts of the royal family especially that of the ascension of the throne will agree will the above. those i know will argue that the oba would never have been a prisoner if he didn't surrender.

And why do you think he surrendered despite the reputation for juju/ sacrifices and related power

Do you remember OBJoke saying we should use juju to fight the whites in apartheid South Africa way back?
Have you considered that rivers and sacred forests that we worshipped and were so scared of, the whites came and constructed right there?

My contribution to this thread is that we need to open our eyes to the scientific analysis and technological development that EMPOWERS a group while NOT NEGLECTING the historical/legacy etc aspect of our ancient traditions/religions.
Dwelling so much on religious beliefs and thinking God will fix everything for us only makes us very backward as it did to the Europeans many centuries ago.

I hope you can understand that.

isale_gan2:

Wow! On the contrary, I believe the primacy of Egyptian civilisation over the Greeks is beyond question. Even college freshmen learn that, at the minimum, the Greeks borrowed a lot from Egypt. And these are facts stipulated by Oyinbos who still want us all to believe that "Western Civilisation" is all there is. Studying in an all-white university, we were all required to take Western Civ I & II, where they proceeded to laud it over us on how great the Europeans are, despite the fact that they're not all in the west geographically. Western by association, you know. But they still had to concede that Egypt was a precursor to the advancement of Greece.

About the Nok, I believe they were in what is now considered northern Nigeria.

I was referring to Egyptian influence over Africa.