shdemidemi:

ok, you actually know in parts. Your knowledge or mine can never be a standard, you can discard anything you find to be my opinion by telling me what the opinion of God is through the scriptures.

It will still boil down to my interpretation of scripture against your interpretation of scripture which arent perfect.

Thats why we have to let the Church interpret for us. The Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth, not the Bible. It was your beloved St Paul that said so.

shdemidemi:


Let me help you here, anything contrary or anything that as no precedence from the bible, especially the epistles written to the church by Paul should not be accepted.

Gal 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed

So the epistle of Paul now supersedes the words of Christ.

Now I know u've truly deviated from the teachings of Jesus Christ.

italo:

It will still boil down to my interpretation of scripture against your interpretation of scripture which arent perfect.

Thats why we have to let the Church interpret for us. The Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth, not the Bible. It was your beloved St Paul that said so.

ERROR...

That is the duty of the Holy Spirit and not the four walls you call a church.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

shdemidemi:


ERROR...

That is the duty of the Holy Spirit and not the four walls you call a church.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Jesus was saying that to the first Church fathers.

Sal C: So the epistle of Paul now supersedes the words of Christ.

Now I know u've truly deviated from the teachings of Jesus Christ.

you err.. Jesus Christ ministered to the Jews before He was sacrificed-

8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

The risen Christ spoke through Paul, we therefore got a mandate from the apostle-

11 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

italo:

Jesus was saying that to the first Church fathers.

O!! the Spirit is limited to the church fathers, right?

The Spirit's guidance in teaching God's doctrine is limited to the Church fathers.

No one else has the authority to teach God's people. Especially not a fallible heretic.

italo: The Spirit's guidance in teaching God's doctrine is limited to the Church fathers.

No one else has the authority to teach God's people. Especially not a fallible heretic.

When I call you a liar, you will be seeking pity-
Ephesians 1

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

When Paul writes his letters he talks about the spiritual gift of the people and of his which is in contrast to the rubbish you are spewing.

11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;

12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.


3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?


I can't find it anywhere in the scripture where the Holy Spirit is restricted to you pope.

The condition for teaching the word according to the scriptures can be found in 1 timothy 3-
3 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach..........

I dont understand what you are saying. Are you saying that everybody has the authority to teach God's doctrine?

shdemidemi:

Very correct, that takes us to the gift of prophesy been talked about in

1 cor 13
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.


Prophesy here is different from what prophets did in the old testament, it means teaching here- Paul was not alone in the teaching of the word, he sets up the church and he leaves. There were people that had the gift of knowledge and of teaching what Paul taught before the epistles were printed.
Ultimately the epistles have all the doctrines we need as a church.

Seriously? The epistles? You really believe this? You may need to read again 2Thess 2: 14 and John 21:25.

shdemidemi:

you err.. Jesus Christ ministered to the Jews before He was sacrificed-

8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

The risen Christ spoke through Paul, we therefore got a mandate from the apostle-

11 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

My problem with your explanation is that you singled out Paul as the only apostle whose epistle is to be used as the standard. What then happens to the likes of Peter, James, John and other apostles?.

All am saying is that the teachings of Christ himself must prevail.

shdemidemi:

you err.. Jesus Christ ministered to the Jews before He was sacrificed-

8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

The risen Christ spoke through Paul, we therefore got a mandate from the apostle-

11 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

So after the sacrificial death of Christ, his own chapter closed and that of Paul opened?.

Btw the bolded got me cracked up.

@shdemidemi started this thread with an arrogant condescending attitude believing that he knows it all and has direct access to God in determining who worships Him or not.

Alas, all his so called positions have fallen flat on his face.

Try again next time

youngies: @shdemidemi started this thread with an arrogant condescending attitude believing that he knows it all and has direct access to God in determining who worships Him or not.

Alas, all his so called positions have fallen flat on his face.

Try again next time

arrogance? I don't know what you are talking about, my reference is the scriptures. Where is the room for pride or arrogance?

Sal C: So after the sacrificial death of Christ, his own chapter closed and that of Paul opened?.

Btw the bolded got me cracked up.

It is right there in the scriptures bro, I didn't make it up. Christ's ministry on earth was primarily for the jews.

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth

Sal C: My problem with your explanation is that you singled out Paul as the only apostle whose epistle is to be used as the standard. What then happens to the likes of Peter, James, John and other apostles?.

All am saying is that the teachings of Christ himself must prevail.

That is where the problem of religion crops out from. Christ was under the law of Moses before He died for the propitiation of our sins. Christianity started after the old covenant of the law was annulled. Christ appeared and gave Apostle Paul the gospel to the church.

shdemidemi:

That is where the problem of religion crops out from. Christ was under the law of Moses before He died for the propitiation of our sins. Christianity started after the old covenant of the law was annulled. Christ appeared and gave Apostle Paul the gospel to the church.

I am really not sure I get this. Where in all these comes in Peter and the rest of the apostles?

Syncan:

I am really not sure I get this. Where in all these comes in Peter and the rest of the apostles?

I will explain as briefly as I possibly can-
Mathew 10
These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Jesus sends the disciples out but told them not to go to Samaritans and gentiles. He had to die for them to become a part of God.

After Christ had paid the price, He says this in the book of Acts 1-

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

The disciples were never use to taking the gospel to the gentiles, the general belief is that God is theirs.

Acts 11:19
19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

Christ needed someone to take his gospel to the gentiles, he picked Saul. Christ kept him away for three years, he came back with the gospel of the mystical body of Christ called the 'church'.

Peter and the rest never understood what God had done, God had actually annulled legalism and Judaism.

Acts 10:13
13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.

14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common


Peter said no, simply because according to the law such animals were forbidden. God made him see, things have actually changed. He sent him to go preach the gospel to a gentile. Peter did, so when the rest heard about Paul preaching to gentiles, it was not strange to them any more. Peter was never comfortable with preaching the gospel to the gentiles, even when he did, he did in fear. Peter would now try to infuse the Jewish tradition with the gospel but Paul was very much against that-

11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

They agreed at a point that Peter and the rest should preach to the Jews + tradition while he preach to the gentiles faith + nothing

8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles

9 And when James, (Peter)Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

shdemidemi:


I will explain as briefly as I possibly can-
Mathew 10
These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Jesus sends the disciples out but told them not to go to Samaritans and gentiles. He had to die for them to become a part of God.

After Christ had paid the price, He says this in the book of Acts 1-

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

The disciples were never use to taking the gospel to the gentiles, the general belief is that God is theirs.

Acts 11:19
19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

Christ needed someone to take his gospel to the gentiles, he picked Saul. Christ kept him away for three years, he came back with the gospel of the mystical body of Christ called the 'church'.

So in your reckoning, the apostles did not fufill Christ's command of ...unto the uttermost part of the earth?

Preaching to the jews found in gentile areas first was not left for the apostles alone, Paul employed that method too, see Acts 17. Did the Bible tell you that Thomas died in India or that James who was later killed by Herod was in spain preaching, four years before his death? Making a conclusive statement on something that involves a whole lifetime of the apostles, by just a verse narrating what happened at the death of Stephen is faulty. Even my favorite Ethiopian eunoch was preached to by phillip and he was not a jew.

Again, Paul you said ,came with the gospel of the "church", I wonder if it is the same one built on Peter? Matt 16:18-19.

Syncan:

So in your reckoning, the apostles did not fufill Christ's command of ...unto the uttermost part of the earth?

Preaching to the jews found in gentile areas first was not left for the apostles alone, Paul employed that method too, see Acts 17. Did the Bible tell you that Thomas died in India or that James who was later killed by Herod was in spain preaching, four years before his death? Making a conclusive statement on something that involves a whole lifetime of the apostles, by just a verse narrating what happened at the death of Stephen is faulty. Even my favorite Ethiopian eunoch was preached to by phillip and he was not a jew.

Again, Paul you said ,came with the gospel of the "church", I wonder if it is the same one built on Peter? Matt 16:18-19.

Every reader must rightly divide the word of God- The Bible consists of a catalogue of events that occurred over a long period of time and over various dispensations, time and administrations. The events recorded in the bible was a progressive revelation and most prophets that have their books/letters within it might have never known they were writing what will become a canon as we have it today. To this end, during each period, a message was for and to a particular audience of people, race and culture. The audience were either:

. The Jews (Israelite)
. The Jewish believer of Christ
. The Gentiles (anyone that is not Jew)
. The Church (the believers of the gospel of Christ)

Before looking in to these different sects, we must distinguish between the 'world' and the 'earth'. We must understand the world is a system on earth, therefore, the world(system) would eventually come to an end but the earth remains forever. That takes us to the next point we must distinguish the 'Kingdom of God' and the 'Kingdom of Heaven'. The Kingdom of God is the universal and eternal rule of God. The Kingdom of Heaven is the earthly sphere of the Kingdom of God, the coming Messianic reign of Jesus Christ, the Son of David. Found only in Matthew's Gospel, the book of the King and His coming Kingdom, it looks to His heavenly rule over the earth in the soon-coming millennium.

John the baptist will then say the kingdom of God is at hand because the king was coming down to earth. As soon as the king was confirmed by God (This is my beloved son,in whom I am well pleased), John's ministry ended. We all know the Jewish nation as a whole did not accept him as their king/the son of God. They refused their king, they eventually killed him.

The Jews (Israelite)
A certain man called Abraham was elected by God.As a result we have the appearance of the Nation of Israel, the Jew.
God had set them apart from all other race, He committed his oracle(word)unto them. That covers everything then from Genesis chapter 12 until we go into the Book of Acts chapter 8. God at that time is dealing with Jew only with a few exceptions.

The Jewish believer of Christ
Jewish believers are the Jews that accepted Christ as their king as it has been prophesied by their fathers/prophets. An example of these people were the twelve disciples(all jews) of Christ and all the Jewish people that accepted Christ as the son of God. Then when Christ starts His earthly ministry to the Nation of Israel, the Jew, there were only two exceptions where he ministered to Gentiles, and don't let anyone ever try to tell you that He went to Jews and Gentiles. I guess I'd better back that statement up, so turn with me to Matthew chapter 10:5-6


"These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, `Go not unto the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans (who were half breeds) enter ye not: (but here was His command) 6. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.'" (God's earthly people)

Christ's earthly ministry was confined to the Jews because he was there to fulfill the covenants made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Peter will then ask Christ "'Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?'". The kingdom is talking about isn't kingdom of God but kingdom of heaven.

It is ridiculous for anyone to claim only st Paul understood the gospel of Jesus or that he alone ministered to the gentiles in the first century.

This is the same heresy propounded by one of the greatest heretics in the history of the church Marcion of sinope in the second century.

St pauls converted after three years of Jesus's ressurection.Other apostles have been preaching and working before him and continued after he converted.Peter converted 3000 souls on the day of pentecost.

Peter wrote and preached to the gentile nations of galatia,pontus e.t.c ditto other apostles.it is ridiculous for any one to claim only paul preached to the gentiles.

Syncan:

So in your reckoning, the apostles did not fufill Christ's command of ...unto the uttermost part of the earth?

Preaching to the jews found in gentile areas first was not left for the apostles alone, Paul employed that method too, see Acts 17. Did the Bible tell you that Thomas died in India or that James who was later killed by Herod was in spain preaching, four years before his death? Making a conclusive statement on something that involves a whole lifetime of the apostles, by just a verse narrating what happened at the death of Stephen is faulty. Even my favorite Ethiopian eunoch was preached to by phillip and he was not a jew.

Again, Paul you said ,came with the gospel of the "church", I wonder if it is the same one built on Peter? Matt 16:18-19.

@Shdemidemi, My questions here are not answered yet.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


Like I said before, there is a difference between kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God - The Kingdom of Heaven is the earthly sphere of the Kingdom of God.

I have also made it clear that all Jesus did in his earthly ministry was primarily for the nation of Israel. The New Testament and the agreement between Paul and the disciples proved Christ right, Peter remained a minister to the circumcised.

The gospel to the uncircumcised is totally new, it only came into existence after the ascension of Christ.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

@shdemidemi,

Matt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Heretic! Was Jesus talking about the earthly sphere of the kingdom of God there?

Why should you honour mary? She was born in sin... No where in the bible says she should be honoured or people worshipping her like they did with Jesus

benalvino: Why should you honour mary? She was born in sin... No where in the bible says she should be honoured or people worshipping her like they did with Jesus

God honoured her. Her older cousin Elizabeth honoured her under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit. Who are we 'filthy worms' not to honour her?

italo:

God honoured her. Her older cousin Elizabeth honoured her under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit. Who are we 'filthy worms' not to honour her?

So you honour her more than you honour Jesus and the father abi?
in revelations when the father and Jesus are receiving worship and Honour where was she? honour is not Wrong the bible says honour thy mother and father... we are talking about worship here. my earlier post is the kind of honour she gets which is worship. and besides that... they do it through images molded by MAN. thats pure idol

See how confused and unreasonable you are.

You asked...

benalvino: Why should you honour mary? She was born in sin...

Then you answered...

benalvino:
honour is not Wrong the bible says honour thy mother and father...

italo: @shdemidemi,

Matt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Heretic! Was Jesus talking about the earthly sphere of the kingdom of God there?

Are you so blinded by your religion that you refuse to see?


8 For I tell you that Christ (the Messiah) became a servant and a minister to the circumcised (the Jews) in order to show God’s truthfulness and honesty by confirming (verifying) the promises [given] to our fathers,


Christ was talking to Israel and the promise to Israel stands even until today. But, the promise to the church(faith alone) is even better.

italo: See how confused and unreasonable you are.

You asked...



Then you answered...

which i said... am not confused.... why should anyone honour her was referring to Roman catholics that honour her more than anything....