debosky:

And does that basic understanding tell you you can change a nature you are born with?

Depending on what we think the word "nature" depicts. For me, nature should equate to something natural. Being gay is not natural.

debosky:
I disagree - I don't know what you mean by 'imperfectly' but there are people for example born with defects, without limbs, etc. Are those perfect? If those people are not perfect and are not denied access to God's kingdom, why do you assert that people cannot have been born homosexual in orientation?

I agree, but then again, if you are male - do you ask God to change you from being male for example? Or change you from being black to white?

Again, it depends on what we define as perfect and imperfect. I do not believe that a person being born without a limb can be compared to a person being born with homosexual tendencies. A person born without a limb, etc, can still grow up a well rounded individual and excel in life. The perfection of God in creating that person is in the fact that despite his deficiencies physically, he could still do well in life with God's help. Also, we human are not born perfect in the real sense of the word. We are born with a human nature that is sinful but the difference btw the sin of Adam and Eve, which a child displays in anger, stealing, lying, etc, with the imperfection of homosexuality, is that the former is not learnt; while the latter is learnt, somehow. What we call sin traditionally comes natural; what they call homosexuality or being gay is learnt.

Let me make a confession: I have nurtured homosexual thoughts before, though, thanks to God, I never practised it. How I got saved from it eventually, I cannot remember now; but I believe, that if I had nurtured it, found an avenue to practise it, etc, I would also, probably be selling the lie that I was born with an innate gay nature. No one is born that way; those who are gay today learnt the art.

debosky:

No need to apologise bro, I'm just trying to explain my own limited understanding of the subject.

Thanks for the understanding; it has given me greater freedom to respond here.

debosky:

Amen!

debosky:

But even with a strong belief in this, I am not aware of any men that have been converted to women (or vice versa), neither am I aware of other aspects of people's nature which they are born with changing. If that is not observed, is the expectation of those with gay orientation (who believe they are born that way) to change?

I maintain that no one is born with a gay nature: if there is ever a change anywhere it came about by the man's own persuasion (if I may use that word).

My position here really is not to condemn anyone for being gay or to join the myriads of Christians that look down on them. My position is that homosexuality is sin. And cannot be said to be a nature. Sin is a nature but homosexuality is a learnt sinful nature. In the cross of Jesus, the power of homosexuality can be abolished and gay Christians can be Christian-Christian. There is no need justifying their position for them: however, is the great need to point them to God's grace that cannot only save to the uttermost but save completely from every grip of sin.

I hope I have not said to much...

Yooguyz:
lemme explian some terms i use and the meaning i ascribe to them :
MAN OF ORIENTATION: someone who is attracted to the same sex, both sexes. It's something he finds himself in, it's beyond his control. He has accepted his. He can be reffered to as a homosexual based on his attraction.
GAY: is someone who assumes the identity above. It's a label. When one decides to act on his attraction, he's classified as gay. I know about all what the bible says about homosexuality. I came about the definitions above because i want to be at peace with myself and still make heaven.

Now, I have seen the OP use this term "make heaven" over and over again and I think that that mindset is another thing that is compounding his troubles.

When Jesus saves: he saves to the uttermost. No one can make heaven! It is either we have made heaven or we have not and cannot!! When you talk about making heaven you betray the mindset of one who is trying to get to heaven via his good deeds and not by the finished works of Christ on Calvary. When such an individual has such a mindset, he looks more to what he is doing than what Christ has done, to save him. Now, the orthodox view of homosexuality is that it is sin. But this individual know he has committed his life to Christ but is still bound to the lifestyle of homosexuality. All round him, he hears that gay people will burn in hell and he has no peace. But he is certain that he is born again, though with a gay mentality. How can he reconcile this? He chooses to find peace with himself by knowing fully well that he is born - again but then translates the grace of God in Christ Jesus into one that accepts gay people and does not discriminate; rather than seeing the grace of God as something available to deliver him from the power of homosexuality.

What I am saying is this: the first step in salvation is accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior. Repenting of our sin and trusting him for our salvation both for now and for all of eternity. By faith, we see that we are saved and we are safe; there should be no fear of loosing one's salvation, talkless of a talk of making heaven.

Next step is to avail ourselves to the power of the cross, by renewing our minds. What does a renewed saints mind say, despite his gay orientation: it does not say Christ accepts me the way I am and wants me to continue that way. NO! It says Christ accepts me the way I am and is able to make me a new person. Being gay is sinful before God and He is able to save me and deliver me from the power of it.

The cross of Jesus secures eternity for us; and also saves us from the grip of sin. There is a grace that delivers from the grip of homosexuality, if we shall avail ourselves to it. One way to deny ourselves from it is to say we do not need it. And since Justification is both by faith and shown via good works; the very proof that an individual is truly saved via Jesus' cross is the fact that Jesus is able to change him from being gay to the perfect human being God has made him to be: heterosexual.

DrummaBoy:

Now, I have seen the OP use this term "make heaven" over and over again and I think that that mindset is another thing that is compounding his troubles.

When Jesus saves: he saves to the uttermost. No one can make heaven! It is either we have made heaven or we have not and cannot!! When you talk about making heaven you betray the mindset of one who is trying to get to heaven via his good deeds and not by the finished works of Christ on Calvary. When such an individual has such a mindset, he looks more to what he is doing than what Christ has done, to save him. Now, the orthodox view of homosexuality is that it is sin. But this individual know he has committed his life to Christ but is still bound to the lifestyle of homosexuality. All round him, he hears that gay people will burn in hell and he has no peace. But he is certain that he is born again, though with a gay mentality. How can he reconcile this? He chooses to find peace with himself by knowing fully well that he is born - again but then translates the grace of God in Christ Jesus into one that accepts gay people and does not discriminate; rather than seeing the grace of God as something available to deliver him from the power of homosexuality.

What I am saying is this: the first step in salvation is accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior. Repenting of our sin and trusting him for our salvation both for now and for all of eternity. By faith, we see that we are saved and we are safe; there should be no fear of loosing one's salvation, talkless of a talk of making heaven.

Next step is to avail ourselves to the power of the cross, by renewing our minds. What does a renewed saints mind say, despite his gay orientation: it does not say Christ accepts me the way I am and wants me to continue that way. NO! It says Christ accepts me the way I am and is able to make me a new person. Being gay is sinful before God and He is able to save me and deliver me from the power of it.

The cross of Jesus secures eternity for us; and also saves us from the grip of sin. There is a grace that delivers from the grip of homosexuality, if we shall avail ourselves to it. One way to deny ourselves from it is to say we do not need it. And since Justification is both by faith and shown via good works; the very proof that an individual is truly saved via Jesus' cross is the fact that Jesus is able to change him from being gay to the perfect human being God has made him to be: heterosexual.

lemme ask a question,
are you attracted to the same-sex? No offence please.

Yooguyz:
lemme ask a question,
are you attracted to the same-sex? No offence please.

No. I am not.

Your quote

DrummaBoy:
Let me make a CONFESSION: I have nurtured homosexual thoughts before, though, thanks to God, I never practised it. How I got saved from it eventually, I cannot remember now; but I believe, that if I had nurtured it, found an avenue to practise it, etc, I would also, probably be selling the lie that I was born with an innate gay nature. No one is born that way; those who are gay today learnt the art.

You are not being sincere with yourself.

DrummaBoy:
I maintain that no one is born with a gay nature

how come were you nuturing thoughts that repulse millions of people if your don't have a tendency towards homosexuality.

DrummaBoy:
Sin is a nature but homosexuality is a learnt sinful nature. In the cross of Jesus, the power of homosexuality can be abolished and gay Christians can be Christian-Christian.

It's not possible to banish people's attraction. Its like saying in the cross of Jesus the power to change the black skin color to white is possible. If your quote were true, with all the years of fasting and prayer i would have changed. Isn't it funny that Jesus never made any reference to homosexuality? Am sure he's not bothered by our orientation. How am i sure that you still don't relish those homosexual thoughts you talked about?

DrummaBoy:

Let me make a confession: I have nurtured homosexual thoughts before, though, thanks to God, I never practised it

you are not sincere as to if you've ever had feelings for the same-sex.

Yooguyz: @hezron,
safe journey. @masonkz how you dey na?

I'm great sir, thanks. Watching the thread from the rear-view mirror ...I'm sure you're doing well.

Yooguyz:

you are not sincere as to if you've ever had feelings for the same-sex.

Unfortunately, despite all I wrote, U heard only what U wanted to hear.

U asked a question, I answered and U are still insinuating I am attracted to same sex.

Well I thought I could help U and your likes. When U have the time study what I wrote and study scriptures. There U will find the help for your predicament.

Cheers.

@ Yooguyz: Having homosexual thoughts doesn't equate to having gay tendencies, and this is crucial, in the manner I surmise you allude to.

@ DrummaBoy: You had better come to terms with the fact that some people are born and grow with a $€xual desire for the same s€x and little or no desire for the opposite $€x. Whilst it is true environment plays a role in making gays, some people are born as I've described. They are born gay.

^^

Hmm...Uyi Uyi. Hehe

Uyi Iredia: @ Yooguyz: Having homosexual thoughts doesn't equate to having gay tendencies, and this is crucial, in the manner I surmise you allude to.

Its just like saying a single guy fantasizing about pornography doesn't equate to having the tendency to have premarital sex.

Uyi Iredia: @ DrummaBoy: You had better come to terms with the fact that some people are born and grow with a $€xual desire for the same s€x and little or no desire for the opposite $€x. Whilst it is true environment plays a role in making gays, some people are born as I've described. They are born gay.

you just spoke my mind!

DrummaBoy:

Well I thought I could help U and your likes. When U have the time study what I wrote and study scriptures. There U will find the help for your predicament.

Cheers.

well, thanks for your "help". You see i DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM neither am i looking for solutions. Am just learning to embrace the other part of me i recently discovered.

masonkz:

I'm great sir, thanks. Watching the thread from the rear-view mirror ...I'm sure you're doing well.

you go fear na

Yooguyz:
Its just like saying a single guy fantasizing about pornography doesn't equate to having the tendency to have premarital sex.

You can have flashes of hom$€xual thoughts without actively fantasizing about it.

Yooguyz:
you just spoke my mind!

Okay.

DrummaBoy:

OP is an abbreviation I found here on nairaland that I think means OPENER. I may be wrong. But it can be used in a dual manner: to either refer to this first post on a thread or to the person who posted it. I think I used it to refer to the person who opened the thread.

Now welcome. You have an unfinished business on nairaland.

We are still looking forward to your posting your paper on Walking in the Spirit in the concluded E-Convention. Pls refer to this thread https://www.nairaland.com/1416947/welcome-e-grace-convention-2013/1#17754058. Let me know when you can upload your paper and then we'll invite the house to it.

Thanks.

I think OP means Opening Post.. then some got it confused for owner of first post.

Hailings, my senior ogas, Debosky and DrummaBoy.. glad to see a more mature discussion..

Reading from the sidelines...

Uyi Iredia:

You can have flashes of hom$€xual thoughts without actively fantasizing about it.

ok thanks for the little enlightment

Wow! Its so cool coming outta closet online, am nicer, less sensitive and touchy than before. How would it be like if i come out of the closet in real life?

You know you have created
God in your own image, when
you find that your God hates
the same people that you
do."— Lois Wilson.
guys what do you make out of the post above? I wanna hear your thoughts on the above?

Yooguyz: Wow! Its so cool coming outta closet online, am nicer, less sensitive and touchy than before. How would it be like if i come out of the closet in real life?

Coming out of the closet in real life is a different ball game., especially to family and friends. But if there's one thing I've come to understand amongst people that have come out to their families (or were forced to, in a way), it's the fact that despite the hatred and "dis-owning" at first, they still end up being closer to the person after a while.

But then families and friends are different from one person to another.

masonkz:

Coming out of the closet in real life is a different ball game., especially to family and friends. But if there's one thing I've come to understand amongst people that have come out to their families (or were forced to, in a way), it's the fact that despite the hatred and "dis-owning" at first, they still end up being closer to the person after a while.

But then families and friends are different from one person to another.

true talk. Its one huge risk i wouldn't dare to take.

.

Keep the thread going

GSKing: Keep the thread going

hi, it seems like you are new in NL or is this your other boniker?

Yooguyz:
hi, it seems like you are new in NL or is this your other boniker?

not new to NL, just registered though

GSKing: Keep the thread going

The thread is not just for me, it's for everyone out there who face what i face. Your maturied input is welcomed.

Yooguyz:
The thread is not just for me, it's for everyone out there who face what i face. Your maturied input is welcomed.

i understood the purpose of the thread. I was repeating what hezron said be4 he left 4 norway.

Wow.a lot did happen here.feels good to be back.

^^^unfortunately, Hettymoore is nowhere to be found

Hezron Lorraine: Wow.a lot did happen here.feels good to be back.

ya! Wat's up with you

GSKing: ^^^unfortunately, Hettymoore is nowhere to be found

good p.m to ya, how's ya day been?