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God Can Move Mountains? Phillipinos Betrayed? 10,000 Dead. - Religion (11) - Nairaland

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Re: God Can Move Mountains? Phillipinos Betrayed? 10,000 Dead. by Nobody: 6:16pm On Nov 14, 2013
Mr Troll: you are wasting your time with him. he spews contradictory statements left, right, and center and yet can't see it even if you show it to him.

Thank you so much for this brilliant piece of advice.
Re: God Can Move Mountains? Phillipinos Betrayed? 10,000 Dead. by Joshthefirst(m): 6:16pm On Nov 14, 2013
Mr Troll: you are wasting your time with him. he spews contradictory statements left, right, and center and yet can't see it even if you show it to him.
okay sir, let's put it another way.
I doubt this will work though.


Try to imagine yourself as an eternal judge who knows the end from the beginning.

Let's say I am a man, you know me. I claim to profess christ, but in secret, I commit sin, you know that I will continue to commit sin and be condemned as a result.
Now answer these questions:

1. Does your foreknowledge of my choices influence my choices?

2. Does justice not require you as a judge to warn me through all possible means to not continue in my path?

How you answer the first will determine how you answer the second.
Re: God Can Move Mountains? Phillipinos Betrayed? 10,000 Dead. by Joshthefirst(m): 6:18pm On Nov 14, 2013
Mr Troll: bros, I've told you. Stay away from my posts. don't argue with me. I have no time to entertain your foolish logic.
sorry, I didn't see this post before I made the other one. I won't argue with you. Never mind my questions.
Re: God Can Move Mountains? Phillipinos Betrayed? 10,000 Dead. by Nobody: 6:26pm On Nov 14, 2013
rationalmind:

Good. Now that ure equating the law of the land with objective moral authority, you have raised more questions than answers. You said when people subscribe to the same objective moral authority like the law of the land, there won't be conflicts.

Can you please help me explain how subscrbing to the law of the land prevents conflicts between a husband and the wife? If subscribing to the law of the land was all that's necessary to prevent couples from conflicting, there won't be failed marriages.

Can you help me explain how subscribing to the law of the land prevents conflicts between me and my younger brother?

Can you please help explain how subscribing to the law of the land prevents conflicts an apprentice and his boss?

Whatever way you define objective moral standards, it can never prevent conflicts even though everyone subscribes to it.

As for the case of sunni and shiite muslims, you said something I really liked, "if they disagree on any of them, there would be conflicts". Meaning their objective moral standards is itself not sufficient to prevent conflicts between them as it is subject to disagreement or agreements. For something to be really objective, everyone (except psychopaths and mentally challenged ones) has to agree with it or disagree with it. So far, no moral has been shown to be so.
Dude, the law of the land is an example. It may deal with domestic issues comprehensively or it may not. Regardless, in the things that it does deal with as comprehensively as possible, it will end conflicts.

No, no one needs to agree with any standard for it to be objective. I may disagree with the law of the land that killing a man in cold blood is wrong or a crime, but if I do it, ideally, the law will apply to me the full consequence of my actions.

A standard is objective because the entity that produced it knows better than the entities upon whom it is binding. Thus, the law of Nigeria is the standard regardless how any given inhabitant of the country is feeling on a given day. This is because ideally the senate that produced it is supposed to be smarter than everyone else and know everything about everything concerning Nigeria.

The bare existence of a universal moral code is not what resolves conflicts. Some will interpret the code one way, others will interprt it another. The conflicts will end when the person who made the code shows up and explains it and shows everyone where they are right and wrong about it.
Re: God Can Move Mountains? Phillipinos Betrayed? 10,000 Dead. by MrTroll(m): 6:27pm On Nov 14, 2013
Joshthefirst: sorry, I didn't see this post before I made the other one. I won't argue with you. Never mind my questions.
thank you.
Re: God Can Move Mountains? Phillipinos Betrayed? 10,000 Dead. by Nobody: 6:28pm On Nov 14, 2013
Mr Troll: at least the state is not omniscient. do you know what omniscience means?
I do. Is it your opinion that both cases are not parallel?
Re: God Can Move Mountains? Phillipinos Betrayed? 10,000 Dead. by Nobody: 6:30pm On Nov 14, 2013
nnofaith: since i am hell bound, i might as well say my mind to god and have my peace;









fu*k you!

grin grin grin grin grin. 1 million likes
Re: God Can Move Mountains? Phillipinos Betrayed? 10,000 Dead. by MrTroll(m): 6:31pm On Nov 14, 2013
Ihedinobi:
Dude, the law of the land is an example. It may deal with domestic issues comprehensively or it may not. Regardless, in the things that it does deal with as comprehensively as possible, it will end conflicts.

No, no one needs to agree with any standard for it to be objective. I may disagree with the law of the land that killing a man in cold blood is wrong or a crime, but if I do it, ideally, the law will apply to me the full consequence of my actions.

A standard is objective because the entity that produced it knows better than the entities upon whom it is binding. Thus, the law of Nigeria is the standard regardless how any given inhabitant of the country is feeling on a given day. This is because ideally the senate that produced it is supposed to be smarter than everyone else and know everything about everything concerning Nigeria.

The bare existence of a universal moral code is not what resolves conflicts. Some will interpret the code one way, others will interprt it another. The conflicts will end when the person who made the code shows up and explains it and shows everyone where they are right and wrong about it.
the problem here is that you cannot even prove the existence of this universal being. so your claim of universal moral code is standing on uncertain ground, at least to every other person who doesn't subscribe to your worldview.

we humans make our own moral code. this is self evident bros. study your history properly.
Re: God Can Move Mountains? Phillipinos Betrayed? 10,000 Dead. by Nobody: 6:35pm On Nov 14, 2013
Mr Troll: @bold, this is circular reasoning my friend. you cannot assume the position you are trying to prove, in this case that Man is not a robot with an illusion of freewill.

omniscience is not a case of knowing all the possible outcomes. it is knowing, with certainty what action the being will take. and being the creator of said being, also implies giving the being the ability to do what you already know it will do....
Lol. Then I'm as guilty of circular reasoning as you are. If you can assume that it was a robot that was created with a fixed programming - the same position that you're trying to prove - I can assume that it wasn't a robot with a fixed programming too, can I not? Fair's fair smiley

But of course, omniscience is certain knowledge of everything not probable knowledge of everything, I get that. But I just worked with scales, you can appreciate that, right? I can prove a matter about omniscience to you using a reduced scale of probable knowledge, can I not?
Re: God Can Move Mountains? Phillipinos Betrayed? 10,000 Dead. by NativeBoy: 6:38pm On Nov 14, 2013
Let me first say that my heart goes out to the people of the Philippines and I think events like this sobers every one.

These are not easy topics that we are discussing. The problem of evil and the omniscience of God are philosophical notions that have been debated since the days of the Greek philosophers.

Here are my two cents. God is omniscient. Can this be fully explained, NO since our minds can only grasp the finite. As creator, God is outside the space-time construct, therefore it is most difficult to explain omniscience. The best way I think about it is to say that God knows the outcome of every decision we make though we are free moral agents. God knows the heart of man so he knows even whether you will change your mind. It is a very complex topic but the bible does provide a case we can look at: the story of Judas Iscariot. Christ had already spoken way ahead of time that one of his disciples would betray him and that even at the last supper he clearly identified that it was Judas. Yet we know that Judas still had to make the choice. Jesus didn't force him to act. I think this shows that the concept of past, present, and future are for us and not God.

If God is all powerful, why does he allow evil like natural disasters to happen? The world as it is now is a fallen world as a result of sin. It evidences sins destructive nature. It was the world that man could only live in when he fell. The world that we live in is an ever-present reminder of that. Paul speaks to this effect when he says

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. (Romans 8:18-22 NKJV)

But this is why the words contained in the book of revelations are vitally important. God will create a new world where there will be no more natural disasters, a world without pain and suffering, where God will personally wipe away the tears from every eye.
Re: God Can Move Mountains? Phillipinos Betrayed? 10,000 Dead. by OilSubsidy: 6:41pm On Nov 14, 2013
Joshthefirst: okay sir, let's put it another way.
I doubt this will work though.


Try to imagine yourself as an eternal judge who knows the end from the beginning.

Let's say I am a man, you know me. I claim to profess christ, but in secret, I commit sin, you know that I will continue to commit sin and be condemned as a result.
Now answer these questions:

1. Does your foreknowledge of my choices influence my choices?

2. Does justice not require you as a judge to warn me through all possible means to not continue in my path?

How you answer the first will determine how you answer the second.

O'l boy, na wa for you o o. It is plain obvious that whoever engages you in this christianity and God argument is merely wasting their time because your mind is already made up and can never be changed.

Ques: Your teacher already know you will fail exam no matter how you try because he is 'all knowing'. Can you do anything about it?

Ques: If God had already pencilled you down for hell becos he knows the end from the beginning, of what use is the freewill then? You are going to hell no matter what!

If God knows that your going to hell is assured, your being a christian today does not mean a thing because you will backslide eventually and still end up in hell in any case because he knew that is where you will end up.
Re: God Can Move Mountains? Phillipinos Betrayed? 10,000 Dead. by Nobody: 6:43pm On Nov 14, 2013
Mr Troll: the problem here is that you cannot even prove the existence of this universal being. so your claim of universal moral code is standing on uncertain ground, at least to every other person who doesn't subscribe to your worldview.

we humans make our own moral code. this is self evident bros. study your history properly.
Lol. Since when can I not prove it?

I'm curious though. How does the fact that we can develop what moral codes we please prove that there is no objective moral code? And, in fact, HOW have we ever developed moral codes? Have huma beings ever developed moral codes that do not attempt to draw authority from something even conceptually greater than humans?
Re: God Can Move Mountains? Phillipinos Betrayed? 10,000 Dead. by Nobody: 6:47pm On Nov 14, 2013
Ihedinobi:
Dude, the law of the land is an example. It may deal with domestic issues comprehensively or it may not. Regardless, in the things that it does deal with as comprehensively as possible, it will end conflicts.

No, no one needs to agree with any standard for it to be objective. I may disagree with the law of the land that killing a man in cold blood is wrong or a crime, but if I do it, ideally, the law will apply to me the full consequence of my actions.

A standard is objective because the entity that produced it knows better than the entities upon whom it is binding. Thus, the law of Nigeria is the standard regardless how any given inhabitant of the country is feeling on a given day. This is because ideally the senate that produced it is supposed to be smarter than everyone else and know everything about everything concerning Nigeria.

The bare existence of a universal moral code is not what resolves conflicts. Some will interpret the code one way, others will interprt it another. The conflicts will end when the person who made the code shows up and explains it and shows everyone where they are right and wrong about it.

Lol bros, I no get power again. I don tire. I will keep disagreeing with you n u'll keep disagreeing with me. The msgs will go on n on. I don rest.
Re: God Can Move Mountains? Phillipinos Betrayed? 10,000 Dead. by OilSubsidy: 6:52pm On Nov 14, 2013
rationalmind:

Lol bros, I no get power again. I don tire. I will keep disagreeing with you n u'll keep disagreeing with me. The msgs will go on n on. I don rest.

You can never win an argument with a brainwashed or religious mind. With religion, reason goes out the window. Why do you think Al queda people do what they do? grin
Re: God Can Move Mountains? Phillipinos Betrayed? 10,000 Dead. by MrTroll(m): 6:56pm On Nov 14, 2013
Ihedinobi:
Lol. Since when can I not prove it?

I'm curious though. How does the fact that we can develop what moral codes we please prove that there is no objective moral code? And, in fact, HOW have we ever developed moral codes? Have huma beings ever developed moral codes that do not attempt to draw authority from something even conceptually greater than humans?
oh! by all means prove it.

and while you are at it, tell me how a real secular state runs and where they draw their authority and laws from.
Re: God Can Move Mountains? Phillipinos Betrayed? 10,000 Dead. by MrTroll(m): 7:01pm On Nov 14, 2013
Ihedinobi:
Lol. Then I'm as guilty of circular reasoning as you are. If you can assume that it was a robot that was created with a fixed programming - the same position that you're trying to prove - I can assume that it wasn't a robot with a fixed programming too, can I not? Fair's fair smiley

But of course, omniscience is certain knowledge of everything not probable knowledge of everything, I get that. But I just worked with scales, you can appreciate that, right? I can prove a matter about omniscience to you using a reduced scale of probable knowledge, can I not?
no. the robot use was an example. you switch the word robot, for a man if you like.

you cannot prove omniscience using a reduced scale. by doing that, you are deviating from the true meaning of omniscience. your use of all possible outcomes will not cut it here, my friend.
Re: God Can Move Mountains? Phillipinos Betrayed? 10,000 Dead. by Joshthefirst(m): 7:02pm On Nov 14, 2013
OilSubsidy:

O'l boy, na wa for you o o. It is plain obvious that whoever engages you in this christianity and God argument is merely wasting their time because your mind is already made up and can never be changed.

Ques: Your teacher already know you will fail exam no matter how you try because he is 'all knowing'. Can you do anything about it?

Ques: If God had already pencilled you down for hell becos he knows the end from the beginning, of what use is the freewill then? You are going to hell no matter what!
God's omniscience and freewill are exclusive(parallel). You are going to hell because you choose to do so. Gods omniscience is exclusive to the matter. How does the fact that he knows your final choice downgrade freewill?

If God knows that your going to hell is assured, your being a christian today does not mean a thing because you will backslide eventually and still end up in hell in any case because he knew that is where you will end up.
I don't know how it is difficult to understand that God knows that your going to hell is ASSURED BY YOUR OWN CHOICE. Your "backsliding eventually" will not happen because he knows your choice, your choice is independent of his foreknowledge

How is this difficult to understand? Smh.
Re: God Can Move Mountains? Phillipinos Betrayed? 10,000 Dead. by Nobody: 7:09pm On Nov 14, 2013
OilSubsidy:

You can never win an argument with a brainwashed or religious mind. With religion, reason goes out the window. Why do you think Al queda people do what they do? grin

grin grin. I tire my brother.
Re: God Can Move Mountains? Phillipinos Betrayed? 10,000 Dead. by OilSubsidy: 7:19pm On Nov 14, 2013
Joshthefirst: God's omniscience and freewill are exclusive(parallel). You are going to hell because you choose to do so. Gods omniscience is exclusive to the matter. How does the fact that he knows your final choice downgrade freewill?

I don't know how it is difficult to understand that God knows that your going to hell is ASSURED BY YOUR OWN CHOICE. Your "backsliding eventually" will not happen because he knows your choice, your choice is independent of his foreknowledge

How is this difficult to understand? Smh.

oohhh. Are you saying that he knows that you are going to hell by your own choice but he doesn't affect those choices? I understand you now.

But then again he knows you are going to hell anyway (bottomline). You will end up in hell!!

Where is the freewill then? grin
Re: God Can Move Mountains? Phillipinos Betrayed? 10,000 Dead. by Nobody: 7:26pm On Nov 14, 2013
Actually, he knows you're going to hell before your grandmother knows your mum. You are still sperm and an omniscient God, who is a slave to his attributes, somehow knows with CERTAINTY how your life will turn in before you start living it.

Automatically when you're born, you act out His knowledge, as your actions while alive are already stored in his knowledge. You simply can't surprise God, he knows before you ever know.



Figure it out.
Re: God Can Move Mountains? Phillipinos Betrayed? 10,000 Dead. by nnofaith: 7:50pm On Nov 14, 2013
Joshthefirst: God's omniscience and freewill are exclusive(parallel). You are going to hell because you choose to do so. Gods omniscience is exclusive to the matter. How does the fact that he knows your final choice downgrade freewill?

I don't know how it is difficult to understand that God knows that your going to hell is ASSURED BY YOUR OWN CHOICE. Your "backsliding eventually" will not happen because he knows your choice, your choice is independent of his foreknowledge

How is this difficult to understand? Smh.
@josh
The problem is not that he knows.
it is that he created you to go to hell!
he creates pple to send them to hell for eternity.
Re: God Can Move Mountains? Phillipinos Betrayed? 10,000 Dead. by Joshthefirst(m): 7:57pm On Nov 14, 2013
nnofaith: @josh
The problem is not that he knows.
it is that he created you to go to hell!
he creates pple to send them to hell for eternity.
you're still making this blind argument and cursing God, endangering yourself all the more.

Let me ask you some questions:
Answer honestly.

Were you created to go to hell? Tell me with all sincerity, do you want to go to hell? Does God want you to go to hell?

If you're too embarrased by the answer to the questions to post them publicly, keep them to yourselves and think well of why you would say f*uck you to a God who has done everything in paradox to save your soul from hell.
Re: God Can Move Mountains? Phillipinos Betrayed? 10,000 Dead. by MrTroll(m): 7:58pm On Nov 14, 2013


Nice logic
Re: God Can Move Mountains? Phillipinos Betrayed? 10,000 Dead. by Joshthefirst(m): 8:16pm On Nov 14, 2013
Joshthefirst: as usual, you keep repeating the same nonsense. How many times will it be drummed into your thick skull that people go to hell for commiting iniquity. You keep repeating this idiotic statement and calling others fools. Smh.
Re: God Can Move Mountains? Phillipinos Betrayed? 10,000 Dead. by Nobody: 8:16pm On Nov 14, 2013
Joshthefirst:
Were you created to go to hell? Tell me with all sincerity, do you want to go to hell? Does God want you to go to hell?
First of all, atheists don't believe in hell.

Beyond the emotional appeal, God has a list of people in his hands now of the people going to hell- the dead, the living and GENERATIONS YET UNBORN.

So why bother?
Re: God Can Move Mountains? Phillipinos Betrayed? 10,000 Dead. by Joshthefirst(m): 8:20pm On Nov 14, 2013
aManFromMars:
First of all, atheists don't believe in hell.

Beyond the emotional appeal, God has a list of people in his hands now of the people going to hell- the dead, the living and GENERATIONS YET UNBORN.

So why bother?
is your name there?

If he does not believe in God or hell? Why would he bother to classify himself in the "imaginary list of an imaginary God made of people who choose to go to imaginary hell"? And curse God for him willingly putting himself in that list? Smh.

How would he foolishly support the notion of God wanting him to go to hell when God sacrificed his son, and poured his wrath on God-the-son to keep him from going there?
Re: God Can Move Mountains? Phillipinos Betrayed? 10,000 Dead. by Nobody: 8:42pm On Nov 14, 2013
OilSubsidy:

You can never win an argument with a brainwashed or religious mind. With religion, reason goes out the window. Why do you think Al queda people do what they do? grin
Lololol. Stop whining and debate. I'm not accusing y'all of dogmatism and bull-headedness, am I? I could but I don't care to.

1 Like

Re: God Can Move Mountains? Phillipinos Betrayed? 10,000 Dead. by nnofaith: 8:44pm On Nov 14, 2013
Joshthefirst: you're still making this blind argument and cursing God, endangering yourself all the more.

Let me ask you some questions:
Answer honestly.

Were you created to go to hell? Tell me with all sincerity, do you want to go to hell? Does God want you to go to hell?

If you're too embarrased by the answer to the questions to post them publicly, keep them to yourselves and think well of why you would say f*uck you to a God who has done everything in paradox to save your soul from hell.
What the Fu*k has he done for me lately?!
Re: God Can Move Mountains? Phillipinos Betrayed? 10,000 Dead. by Joshthefirst(m): 8:45pm On Nov 14, 2013
nnofaith: What the Fu*k has he done for me lately?!
you didn't answer my questions...I'm not surprised.

Edit: you might refuse to see what he has done for you, but answer me another question;
How has he wronged you? How so to the extent that you first deny his existence and then scream fu*k him for you putting yourself in a list of hell you believe to be imaginary?
Re: God Can Move Mountains? Phillipinos Betrayed? 10,000 Dead. by Nobody: 8:49pm On Nov 14, 2013
rationalmind:

Lol bros, I no get power again. I don tire. I will keep disagreeing with you n u'll keep disagreeing with me. The msgs will go on n on. I don rest.
Well, nobody can say that neither of us tried, abi? wink

2 Likes

Re: God Can Move Mountains? Phillipinos Betrayed? 10,000 Dead. by Nobody: 8:59pm On Nov 14, 2013
Mr Troll: oh! by all means prove it.

and while you are at it, tell me how a real secular state runs and where they draw their authority and laws from.
And that would be the, what, millionth time on NL? grin Beyond amusement, why should I spend the energy yet again?

Answer my own questions first.
Re: God Can Move Mountains? Phillipinos Betrayed? 10,000 Dead. by frank317: 10:08pm On Nov 14, 2013
Joshthefirst: okay sir, let's put it another way.
I doubt this will work though.


Try to imagine yourself as an eternal judge who knows the end from the beginning.

Let's say I am a man, you know me. I claim to profess christ, but in secret, I commit sin, you know that I will continue to commit sin and be condemned as a result.
Now answer these questions:

1. Does your foreknowledge of my choices influence my choices?

2. Does justice not require you as a judge to warn me through all possible means to not continue in my path?

How you answer the first will determine how you answer the second.

Mr josh, are u really ok? I am a bit worried for u. I know u are intelligent, but i think u are intelligently delusioned, and that is too bad.
If god knows the choice i will make and yet the choice is mine to make, is it possible that i can make a choice that is different from what he know?
If there is this possiblity, then he really does not know. If there is No possibility of that then i am bounded by what he knows.
Why are u trying to make this sound difficult. Stop it, iit is annoyiing. God is even angry with u. Cos u make sound confused.

1 Like

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