Mr Troll: no. the robot use was an example. you switch the word robot, for a man if you like.

you cannot prove omniscience using a reduced scale. by doing that, you are deviating from the true meaning of omniscience. your use of all possible outcomes will not cut it here, my friend.

Lol. Only an example. This example is to what purpose exactly? Not to prove your position? And how does it do so?

I can't? Because you say so? C'mon, be serious I may call it an argument using scales but I really only did what we all do when we use examples and analogies. It is up to you to show how I cannot illustrate something about the quality of unlimited knowledge with the quality of limited knowledge. Me, my own job is done until you can show that I did ojoro anywhere.

OilSubsidy:

oohhh. Are you saying that he knows that you are going to hell by your own choice but he doesn't affect those choices? I understand you now.

But then again he knows you are going to hell anyway (bottomline). You will end up in hell!!

Where is the freewill then?

Not a very smart comment.

frank3.16:


Mr josh, are u really ok? I am a bit worried for u. I know u are intelligent, but i think u are intelligently delusioned, and that is too bad.
If god knows the choice i will make and yet the choice is mine to make, is it possible that i can make a choice that is different from what he know?
If there is this possiblity, then he really does not know. If there is No possibility of that then i am bounded by what he knows.
Why are u trying to make this sound difficult. Stop it, iit is annoyiing. God is even angry with u. Cos u make sound confused.

Why are you people trying to make it silly? Simply establish a cause-effect relationship between God's knowledge and your actions and we will stop "making it difficult". How does God's knowing what you will do force you to do it? If you find that a difficult question to answer maybe you should rethink your position.

Ihedinobi:
Why are you people trying to make it silly? Simply establish a cause-effect relationship between God's knowledge and your actions and we will stop "making it difficult". How does God's knowing what you will do force you to do it? If you find that a difficult question to answer maybe you should rethink your position.

I just had to take a break from you and Josh's silliness, only to come back and meet more.


Anony must have taught you this ridiculous method of thinking. You want to apply "cause and effect" to a metaphysical concept.

In short, you want to tie a physical explanation (cause-effect) to a metaphysical concept (omniscience)


Why not ask for the cause and effect of prophecies to action? What is the cause and effect of a prophet of God in the old testament saying that a Messiah will come and hundreds of years later, Mary gives birth to the Messiah.......how did the prophet make Mary to give birth to the Messiah? Where is the cause and effect?


See your silliness? Sorry, but you and Joshthefirst are trolls, you just make up silly arguments whenever cornered and then act ignorant to the solid rebuttals.



Back to the topic, omniscience, prophecies and other metaphysical claims are assessed with logic. The problem is that all these metaphysical claims of religion are always found wanting....they are illogical.

Omniscience is a self contradictory concept. This is why it has problems in the real world. Omniscience can not exist with man's freewill because everything that will happen is known. Whatever choices you make are already known- meaning that you are just with an illusion of choice as your path has already been set. Professional philosophers have already explained this problem. Even christians have acknowledged this problem. The logic is simple and clear.


Omniscience itself can not exist. An omniscient being cant exist

Logicboy03: [size=18pt]4. The Paradox of omniscience[/size]


We agree that a "married bachelor" can not exist because it is contradictory and self-refuting. An omniscient God is self-refuting and contradictory.

-Omniscience means knowing all things



If God knows everything, then he can not forget because the moment he forgets, he doesn't know everything. However, if God cant forget, he then doesnt know how to remember or recollect. If he can't recollect. then there is something he doesn't know- he doesnt know how it feels to recollect or remember something.


[img]http://t.qkme.me/42ef.jpg[/img]

Ihedinobi:
Why are you people trying to make it silly? Simply establish a cause-effect relationship between God's knowledge and your actions and we will stop "making it difficult". How does God's knowing what you will do force you to do it? If you find that a difficult question to answer maybe you should rethink your position.

i have never liked responding to ur post because u prefer to sound smart by playing ignorance... very annoying.

nobody here is stuupid, why are you asking such a senseless question, yet think its wise.

how does God's knowing what you will do force you to do it? i have never seen such a sillly question, are you assuming every person here is foolish?

if God knows i will sleep by 4am am i not bound to sleep by 4am? if i sleep by 3am what does it say about what God knows? if God knows i will sleep by 4am how can i make a choice different from what God knows? if what HE knows does not come to pass, how can he claim he knows it? once he knows it what he knows must be, if not he does not know it, if it does then there is no freewill. you cant twist this and come out with anything reasonable. its either he knows or he does not know(you can say chose not to know) but both cant be possible yet you preach freewill.

you call him Omnipotent and try to make him sound like an ordinary human.

Bold foolishness. Until you can refute what I said, which is supported by Gods very actions in the bible, you are wasting your time.

[size=20pt]Gods omniscience does not infringe on mans freewill[/size]

God indeed knows who will end up in hell because he knows the final choices we make. I repeat, because he knows the final choices we make. We make these choices not to fulfill his own pattern that is preknown, we make this choices because they are our choices to make. It is foolish thinking to think that they're both intertwined. This is another case of you trying to evade responsibility for your actions when you realize indeed that there's a God.

God knows the final choices we make, but does he want us to go to heaven? Yes. Does he want anyone to make a choice of going to hell? No. How do we know? Because he sent Jesus to die for our sins while we were yet sinners. No one will have an excuse for choosing to continue in iniquity because Gods will is known. If God wanted to actually set everyone's destiny(thus making us programmed robots), he would set us on a straight course to heaven of course. But his will is not always done in our lives. That's right, we can choose to ignore his will for foolish reasons such as the basis of this argument. Nonsense.

This argument will land you where nnofaith landed. Cursing God for sending him to hell after foolishly puting his name on the list to hell he does not believe exists.

If you still choose to be willfully deluded after this...if you still think that you're not responsible for your choices and actions...

The problem is that they have already dug themselves up in a big hole, people like Ihe and Josh are very dishonest people that will use what ever trick there is to fiurther their belief in mythology. . .Honest christian philosophers like Gary Habermers and James Clerk have acknowledge this problem. . .Sophist and liars will continue to dance around claiming ignorance. . .The concept that god is omniscient is a man made concept and attribute to give god more power, those that formulated that attribute didn't think it through very well. . .The bible says god know the beginning and the end so how those free will come into play here?. . .He already knows the beginning and the end so what ever you do he knows. . .

The problem is that christians define their god and give him impossible or contradictory attributes like a married bachelor. ..How can one be married and yet be a bachelor at the same time. . .An omniscient god that acts the way the bible god does is impossible. . .

Ihedinobi:
Are you serious, Mazaje? Should I go find all the places the Scriptures say that we are condemned for oue sins? "The wages of sin is death". "Through one man's sin, death passed upon all." "We shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ and receive the due for the things done in our body." There's a lot more, Mazaje. You want where the Bible says somethong about sin and iniquity?

It's clear. You don't die from refusing to believe that chemotherapy can save you from the death thay the cancer in your body is certainly bringing about, you die from the cancer. We are already condemned to death for our sin. If we believe in Jesus, we are saved from the sin for which we are condemned and therefore from the death that it would have certainly brought. If we don't believe, we're still guilty and stand condemned for it.

What are you on about?. . .A very pious muslim, buddist etc and a very good and humane atheist all perish for not accepting the Jesus story according to the theology you subscribe to. . .So what exactly are you on about?. . .

Joshthefirst: Bold foolishness. Until you can refute what I said, which is supported by Gods very actions in the bible, you are wasting your time.

[size=20pt]Gods omniscience does not infringe on mans freewill[/size]

God indeed knows who will end up in hell because he knows the final choices we make. I repeat, because he knows the final choices we make. We make these choices not to fulfill his own pattern that is preknown, we make this choices because they are our choices to make. It is foolish thinking to think that they're both intertwined. This is another case of you trying to evade responsibility for your actions when you realize indeed that there's a God.

God knows the final choices we make, but does he want us to go to heaven? Yes. Does he want anyone to make a choice of going to hell? No. How do we know? Because he sent Jesus to die for our sins while we were yet sinners. No one will have an excuse for choosing to continue in iniquity because Gods will is known. If God wanted to actually set everyone's destiny(thus making us programmed robots), he would set us on a straight course to heaven of course. But his will is not always done in our lives. That's right, we can choose to ignore his will for foolish reasons such as the basis of this argument. Nonsense.

This argument will land you where nnofaith landed. Cursing God for sending him to hell after foolishly puting his name on the list to hell he does not believe exists.

If you still choose to be willfully deluded after this...if you still think that you're not responsible for your choices and actions...

Later this deluded one will come here saying he isn't afraid of hell. . .Why the hell then does it keep coming out of most things you say, why use it as a bargaining chip to scare people?. . .I find it disgusting that you still believe in this sadist idea, christians in many parts of the world are already running away from this sadist idea. . . .But to you its fair game because you are already a failed human being who is not different from the muslim terrorist. . .The only difference is that you believe people deserve to suffer in the after life while the muslism terrorist believes their need to suffer immediately. . .

mazaje: The problem is that they have already dug themselves up in a big hole, people like Ihe and Josh are very dishonest people that will use what ever trick there is to fiurther their belief in mythology. . .Honest christian philosophers like Gary Habermers and James Clerk have acknowledge this problem. . .Sophist and liars will continue to dance around claiming ignorance. . .The concept that god is omniscient is a man made concept and attribute to give god more power, those that formulated that attribute didn't think it through very well. . .The bible says god know the beginning and the end so how those free will come into play here?. . .He already knows the beginning and the end so what ever you do he knows. . .

The problem is that christians define their god and give him impossible or contradictory attributes like a married bachelor. ..How can one be married and yet be a bachelor at the same time. . .An omniscient god that acts the way the bible god does is impossible. . .

I used to think Trhat JOshthefirst and ihedinobi were foolish but they are smart.

They use dishonest arguments and feign igorance to promote their christianity. I thibk it is pride.....they also need the religion so that they can bé among friends....i can imagine how important the xtian chatbox is to them.....there is incentive to bé a xtian on NL and in nigeria.......the babes, the tithe money, the connections......

mazaje:

Later this deluded one will come here saying he isn't afraid of hell. . .Why the hell then does it keep coming out of most things you say, why use it as a bargaining chip to scare people?. . .I find it disgusting that you still believe in this sadist idea, christians in many parts of the world are already running away from this sadist idea. . . .But to you its fair game because you are already a failed human being who is not different from the muslim terrorist. . .The only difference is that you believe people deserve to suffer in the after life while the muslism terrorist believes their need to suffer immediately. . .

honestly if you see a child heading toward a fire won't you warn him to stop?

I tell the truth. Hell is the sober truth. It is only when people realize the penalty of their sins and feel remorse for breaking Gods law that they'll reach for the saviour: Jesus Christ.

And I don't preach a condemnation message btw, I preach a salvation message. We have been saved from condemnation and sin and hell. I zero in on the messiah

Christian philosophers, atheisdt philosophers etc have all come tto the logical conclusion that omniscience and freewill cant exist together.....


But no, JOsh and Ihe would like us to believe otherwise.

Even the encyclopedia of philosophy is clear on this issue. I put two encyclopedias forward, yet ihe rejected them........this is the madness of faith.....rejecting common sense when it defies ur religion.....



And before anyone claims that i amb using appeal to authoerity......the logic is quite clear.......god knows everything and so, all you are doing is following gods knowledge...u aint making any choice

@Josh:

Simple question: Does God know the exact choice you will make before you make them?

Joshthefirst: honestly if you see a child heading toward a fire won't you warn him to stop?

I tell the truth. Hell is the sober truth. It is only when people realize the penalty of their sins and feel remorse for breaking Gods law that they'll reach for the saviour: Jesus Christ.

And I don't preach a condemnation message btw, I preach a salvation message. We have been saved from condemnation and sin and hell. I zero in on the messiah

You are afraid of hell and you want to share the fear of hell.

The Zeus worshipper is afraid of thunder and would want to warn people of zeus's lightening bolts...


Problem is that both zeus and hell do not exist.....both of you have no proof and it is unscientific.

Hell has no directions. You can point out where hell is just as no one can point out where zeus lives.


Hell is said to bé everlasting fire but entrropy and the impossibility of perpertual motion make it impossible


Zeus- a white man with beards could not live on a mountain and the sky at the same time and also throw thunderbolts

aManFromMars: @Josh:

Simple question: Does God know the exact choice you will make before you make them?

yes.

And I know you'll reply by saying: "that means you have to make the choice he knows."

Then I'll repeat myself by saying:
"As I said before, you make your choice independent of his omniscience"

Logicboy03:




You are afraid of hell and you want to share the fear of hell.

The Zeus worshipper is afraid of thunder and would want to warn people of zeus's lightening bolts...


Problem is that both zeus and hell do not exist.....both of you have no proof and it is unscientific.

Hell has no directions. You can point out where hell is just as no one can point out where zeus lives.


Hell is said to bé everlasting fire but entrropy and the impossibility of perpertual motion make it impossible


Zeus- a white man with beards could not live on a mountain and the sky at the same time and also throw thunderbolts

God has been logically proven, psychologically proven, physically appeared(in the form of Jesus Christ, but you won't accept that will you?), supernaturally proven.

If God fulfills the parameters of science, he ceases to be God in his characteristics. And our limited knowledge and testing will even be unable to prove his claims.

Why do you try to complicate this basic issue of life? The fact that people even feel remorse for their sins show there's a God. The fact that they're touched by Gods power and love and accept Christ show that God is active. I've seen lives changed and people healed.
I will still see more lives changed and people healed.

I've got to congratulate you atheists though. When I came here with my first moniker, I was quite surprised that this new challenge was already creeping into nigeria. And all your questions have only helped me study more and grow in Christ.

My faith is continually and daily strenghtened all the more. Praise the lord!

Who's next? We'll hear more testimonies from people who met God and reality very soon.

Revival is coming.

Stop living life in the mundane lb, stop justifying sin and wrongdoing. Each time, your questions are answered, and you either refuse the answers or come up with more silly questions. This is what Jesus had to say about that:

You might be a respected atheist cabal leader but..

John 3:10-12 Jesus said, "You're a respected teacher of Israel and you don't know these basics? Listen carefully. I'm speaking sober truth to you. I speak only of what I know by experience; I give witness only to what I have seen with my own eyes. There is nothing secondhand here, no hearsay. Yet instead of facing the evidence and accepting it, you procrastinate with questions. If I tell you things that are plain as the hand before your face and you don't believe me, what use is there in telling you of things you can't see, the things of God?


John 8:23-24 Jesus said, "You're tied down to the mundane; I'm in touch with what is beyond your horizons. You live in terms of what you see and touch. I'm living on other terms. I told you that you were missing God in all this. You're at a dead end. If you won't believe I am who I say I am, you're at the dead end of sins. You're missing God in your lives."

It's funny how Christians defy logic just to save their all powerful god but want their court cases to be settled based on the defied logic.
PS: @ Josh
So god came physically in form of Jesus? What about Mohamed and my village oracle that appears in form of relatives? God does not expect us to believe in a mythical Jesus that didn't exist.Let god come down during the champions' league final.if he can't, then so much for an all powerful, freewill doling god.

Joshthefirst: honestly if you see a child heading toward a fire won't you warn him to stop?

I tell the truth. Hell is the sober truth. It is only when people realize the penalty of their sins and feel remorse for breaking Gods law that they'll reach for the saviour: Jesus Christ.

And I don't preach a condemnation message btw, I preach a salvation message. We have been saved from condemnation and sin and hell. I zero in on the messiah

You only use the excuse of sin to rationalize your sadism. . .You have not been saved from anything. . .You need to save yourself from ancient myths, delusions and imaginations. . .Stop using human analogy when describing your nonsense. . .If you see a child walking towards a fire you will not only warn the child you will quickly run and take the child away. . Will you as a parent allow a disobedient child to burn in fire for 100 years?. . .Stop talking nonsense. . You are a sadist and a deluded one at that. . .Hell is no sober truth but the imaginations of deluded sadist like you who just use some stupid theology to make themselves feel happy about their miserable existence. . .

peterphd: It's funny how Christians defy logic just to save their all powerful god but want their court cases to be settled based on the defied logic.
PS: @ Josh
So god came physically in form of Jesus? What about Mohamed and my village oracle that appears in form of relatives? God does not expect us to believe in a mythical Jesus that didn't exist.Let god come down during the champions' league final.if he can't, then so much for an all powerful, freewill doling god.

oh so now you claim jesus didn't exist?
Lol.
What did mohammed do and say and claim?
Jesus went about teaching and healing and preaching. Then he went and died for our sins. Did mohammed die for our sins?
Did mohammed save us from hell and Gods judgement?
Did mohammed heal.

Did mohammed say these words:

John 8:58 "Believe me," said Jesus, "I am who I am long before Abraham was anything." (The Message)

John 11:25-26 "You don't have to wait for the End. I am, right now, Resurrection and Life. The one who believes in me, even though he or she dies, will live. And everyone who lives believing in me does not ultimately die at all. Do you believe this?"

John 14:6-7 Jesus said, "I am the Road, also the Truth, also the Life. No one gets to the Father apart from me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him. You've even seen him!"

What has mohammed and your atheism done for you? Has it tackled the problem of your sins? No. Jesus did that by dieing for us on that cross.

It is recorded. And it is proved in our lives.

What proof do you have that Jesus solved the problem of sin? Even those who believe still battle with sin everyday.

Jesus, if he lived, died for himself and no other. No proof that he ever resurrected.

mazaje:

You only use the excuse of sin to rationalize your sadism. . .You have not been saved from anything. . .You need to save yourself from ancient myths, delusions and imaginations. . .Stop using human analogy when describing your nonsense. . .If you see a child walking towards a fire you will not only warn the child you will quickly run and take the child away. . Will you as a parent allow a disobedient child to burn in fire for 100 years?. . .Stop talking nonsense. . You are a sadist and a deluded one at that. . .Hell is no sober truth but the imaginations of deluded sadist like you who just use some stupid theology to make themselves feel happy about their miserable existence. . .

why are you making me repeat myself? God is not just a parent as I sid before. He's also an eternal judge. And you're not a child anymore that is not responsible for your actions. You're a grown man. Judgement Is coming, hell is real. But heaven is also real. Thank God. He has saved all who trust him from hell and sin and wrath. Archaeology and history has continually proved the bible is no ordinary book.

Receive Jesus today and be free from the burdens of sin.

aManFromMars: What proof do you have that Jesus solved the problem of sin? Even those who believe still battle with sin everyday.

Jesus, if he lived, died for himself and no other. No proof that he ever resurrected.

the proof that we can actually battle with sin is proof enough. Do you battle with sin?

As christians, we're delivered from the power of lust, we owe no obligation to the flesh, to live as flesh controlled men anymore.

Not just that, our sins can be and have been forgiven as we trust in Christs sacrifice. Its an awesome life to live. A resurrected life

Joshthefirst: why are you making me repeat myself? God is not just a parent as I sid before. He's also an eternal judge. And you're not a child anymore that is not responsible for your actions. You're a grown man. Judgement Is coming, hell is real. But heaven is also real. Thank God. He has saved all who trust him from hell and sin and wrath. Archaeology and history has continually proved the bible is no ordinary book.

Receive Jesus today and be free from the burdens of sin.

You are completely deluded to have uttered such. . .Hope you know that most of the events in the bible have no historical backing outside the bible?. . .Archaeology and history actually disproof the bible. . .Don't go to christian fundamentalist sites and be reading nonsense and lies by people that will do or say anything to further their faith. .

peterphd: It's funny how Christians defy logic just to save their all powerful god but want their court cases to be settled based on the defied logic.
PS: @ Josh
So god came physically in form of Jesus? What about Mohamed and my village oracle that appears in form of relatives? God does not expect us to believe in a mythical Jesus that didn't exist.Let god come down during the champions' league final.if he can't, then so much for an all powerful, freewill doling god.

when Jesus truly comes down in all might and power, he'll come as the all-powerful and immediately judge the people who have sinned and continually rejected and insulted the free solution to their sins.

Joshthefirst: when Jesus truly comes down in all might and power, he'll come as the all-powerful and immediately judge the people who have sinned and continually rejected and insulted the free solution to their sins.

Did he Jesus tell his disciples and his followers that he will do that during their life times?. . .That was 200 thousand years ago. . .Another nonsense talk from the bible. . .

Joshthefirst:
the proof that we can actually battle with sin is proof enough. Do you battle with sin?

NO, I don't.

Joshthefirst:
As christians, we're delivered from the power of lust, we owe no obligation to the flesh, to live as flesh controlled men anymore.

All fairy tales. Show me one Christian who doesn't ask God for forgiveness of sins, at least weekly.

Joshthefirst:
Not just that, our sins can be and have been forgiven as we trust in Christs sacrifice. Its an awesome life to live. A resurrected life

Yawn. My life is more awesome.

Joshthefirst: when Jesus truly comes down in all might and power, he'll come as the all-powerful and immediately judge the people who have sinned and continually rejected and insulted the free solution to their sins.

What's keeping him?

mazaje:

You are completely deluded to have uttered such. . .Hope you know that most of the events in the bible have no historical backing outside the bible?. . .Archaeology and history actually disproof the bible. . .Don't go to christian fundamentalist sites and be reading nonsense and lies by people that will do or say anything to further their faith. .

there is actually. But even if there isn't, why won't you believe the historical data recorded in the bible that is backed up by archaeological facts?

Here are some historical data from a website:
http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/corner/read/r00175.html

aManFromMars:
What's keeping him?

he's waiting for you and others, giving them time

I ve been watching from the sidelines.
You guys are giving ihe and josh enough space to give dishonest answers and feel smart.
Mr josh. Let me ask.
Does god know those going to hell before they are born?

Joshthefirst: there is actually. But even if there isn't, why won't you believe the historical data recorded in the bible that is backed up by archaeological facts?

Here are some historical data from a website:
http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/corner/read/r00175.html

I have told you to stop going to christian websites that spread lies just to promote their faith. . .So far there is NO archaeological evidence any where that supports the exodus. ..Jews themselves have acknowledged that I don't even know why christians keep telling lies all the time, any way your religion is based ion a lie so you must keep telling lies to promote it. . .Christianity is big business and has always been so lies must be concocted to promote and further the lies of christianity. . .

nwuyag: I ve been watching from the sidelines.
You guys are giving ihe and josh enough space to give dishonest answers and[b] feel smart[/b].
Mr josh. Let me ask.
Does god know those going to hell before they are born?

Smart, you can not put smart and these two in the same sentence, ihe is just a dishonest person while Josh is just a deluded drone that can not think outside the normal christian platitudes. . .