Dap07: General Shepherd, Plaetton, aManFromMars, Mazaje, i'm working on an article and i need ur opinions and any info i can get, i dnt wanna put the title here for some reasons...how do i get in touch? Tanx

Prncksh@gmail.com

Hope it isn't urgent.

Dap07: General Shepherd, Plaetton, aManFromMars, Mazaje, i'm working on an article and i need ur opinions and any info i can get, i dnt wanna put the title here for some reasons...how do i get in touch? Tanx

jiga_saw@yahoo.co.uk

GeneralShepherd:

If there was true freewill God will not be omniscient!

Freewill cannot be an attribute bestowed to man by a supposedly omniscient God!!

If I know you every choice you will make through out your lifetime,how is the ability to make that choice yours?

How is the ability to make that choice not yours? God does not make choices for you. He is all knowing. That means he just knows the final choice you'd make. The decision is in your hands.

Freewill does not debunk Gods omniscience, it actually confirms it.

Joshthefirst:

How is the ability to make that choice not yours? God does not make choices for you. He is all knowing. That means he just knows the final choice you'd make. The decision is in your hands.

Freewill does not debunk Gods omniscience, it actually confirms it.

If God knew I will always make my choice even before I was born,how is that choice mine!?

Someone pput the argument like this

1.A being with free will, given two options A and B, can freely
choose between A and B.
2. God is omniscient (all-knowing).
3. God knows I will choose A.
4. God cannot be wrong, since an omniscient being cannot have
false knowledge.
5. From 3 and 4, I will choose A and cannot choose B.
6. From 1 and 5, omniscience and free will cannot co-exist.

I have read many counter-arguments from apologetics sites,
but they were
either too technical (I couldn't understand them), or not
satisfying. so, I
was wondering what would your input be on this issue?
Thank you,
Justin

www.comereason.org/phil_qstn/phi038.asp

And d guy ended u running around in circles without providing answers!!

GeneralShepherd:

Why would come to save people you destined for hell..

Or are you saying that God doesn't know the exact number of people that will eventually go to hell before he created the world?

God knows, but God himself cannot infringe on mans freewill. He must give man a choice to make.
You choose your path. Be it rebellion or obedience.

Joshthefirst: :oGod knows, but God himself cannot infringe on mans freewill. He must give man a choice to make.
You choose your path. Be it rebellion or obedience.

As he knows what I will do!! What if I change my mind? He will surely know I will change my mind!! I see a contradiction. I don't think it will be fair for me to play poker with my dad if he knows all my cards!! Cos him pretending I fairly won if I win is pure hypocrisy!

But please can you address the premises of the argument above!

GeneralShepherd:

If God knew I will always make my choice even before I was born,how is that choice mine!?

Someone pput the argument like this

1.A being with free will, given two options A and B, can freely
choose between A and B.
2. God is omniscient (all-knowing).
3. God knows I will choose A.
4. God cannot be wrong, since an omniscient being cannot have
false knowledge.
5. From 3 and 4, I will choose A and cannot choose B.
6. From 1 and 5, omniscience and free will cannot co-exist.

I have read many counter-arguments from apologetics sites,
but they were
either too technical (I couldn't understand them), or not
satisfying. so, I
was wondering what would your input be on this issue?
Thank you,
Justin

www.comereason.org/phil_qstn/phi038.asp

And d guy ended u running around in circles without providing answers!!

okay. My former statement has thrashed the whole argument.

God's omniscience does not infringe on mans freewill.
Judge what I s ay carefully. God knows the end from the beginning. Time and history itself is planned and written down.(But this is based on Gods foreknowledge of mans choice, his omniscience does not expand its borders to mans freewill.)

They're both exclusive on their own.

Its not a case in which you are programmed to do what is written, what is written is not even exclusively made known to you. The end of your choice and actions are just preknown, and everything is preplanned and predetermined based on Gods foreknowledge on the final choice you make.

Judas's name was not mentioned in scripture. Just as your name is not recorded as an inhabitant of hell. Try and understand what the bible says when it says I have called you and predestinated you. The bible says God commands everyman to repent. It does not mean God already has classified men who will repent and who won't by his own will(that would make us all robots not responsible for our actions)

It means that he has recorded your final destination based on his foreknowledge of your final choice

Therefore he does not infringe on the choice itself. The choice is yours to make. The oppourtunity lies with you. He gives the invite. He advises you to take the good way, to make the right choice. But you make the final choice.
The only difference is that it is known already by him.

Joshthefirst: okay. My former statement has thrashed the whole argument.

God's omniscience does not infringe on mans freewill.
Judge what I s ay carefully. God knows the end from the beginning. Time and history itself is planned and written down.(But this is based on Gods foreknowledge of mans choice, his omniscience does not expand its borders to mans freewill.)

They're both exclusive on their own.

Its not a case in which you are programmed to do what is written, what is written is not even exclusively made known to you. The end of your choice and actions are just preknown, and everything is preplanned and predetermined based on Gods foreknowledge on the final choice you make.

Judas's name was not mentioned in scripture. Just as your name is not recorded as an inhabitant of hell. Try and understand what the bible says when it says I have called you and predestinated you. The bible says God commands everyman to repent. It does not mean God already has classified men who will repent and who won't by his own will(that would make us all robots not responsible for our actions)

It means that he has recorded your final destination based on his foreknowledge of your final choice

Therefore he does not infringe on the choice itself. The choice is yours to make. The oppourtunity lies with you. He gives the invite. He advises you to take the good way, to make the right choice. But you make the final choice.
The only difference is that it is known already by him.

You have failed to see my point and sincerely I don't even know how to make you see it!

Its just too much work,so let us agree to disagree.

GeneralShepherd, how does what I know about you make you do anything? How does God's knowledge of what you will do cause you to do anything? Help me establish a clear cause-effect relationship here.

The reason God will still warn and still advise one to make the right choice is already satisfied by the fact that he cannot infringe on one's choice.

Justice requires him to advise you like he advises everyone else to do good. To embrace salvation from sin. His love requires him to do everything possible as an omniscient God to stop his son from perdition, and that is what he has done by sending Jesus Christ.

Jesus salvation and sacrifice was truly genius. For God did it wothout violating his role as a judge and violating mans attribute as a free moral being.

He knows the end from the beginning, but the choice is yours. And one chooses, knowing full well the consequences of his choice. One chooses knowing full well the outcome of his choice. Just as adam and eve sinned knowing full well that they'd die. Knowing full well that they were disobeying.
In judgement, no one would be able to say: "why didn't you warn me judge?! To abstain from evil, to forsake the way of sin and damnation?!"
No. He warns even now. His omniscience does not come into play among us. Among us, the choice is ours, we cannot blame Gods omniscience for our damnation. Gods omniscience would be the very thing that would seal his verdict, for although he must have known your final choice, he gave you every oppourtunity to make a good one, and you refused.

So this world and this salvation is the best case scenario to save to the uttermost those who believe in Christ Jesus.

@Josh, I would have quoted your reply to me but i'm afraid it is too far off now. Advice, pls refrain from infecting my posts with your foolish and re'tarded logic. I have told you before that you lack the common sense and rationality to debate atheists. until you improve pls don't try to engage me.



As for the argument about the fall of man, Adam and Eve are mythological beings. they didn't exist and I don't know why I should base my argument on a false premise from the bible that we had a perfect first human pair of which there is no evidence of. it is simply stupid and ignorant. man has continually improved right from antiquity. history proves it, physical evidence abound. the bible is full of bullshyt and lies. most of its scientific claims are simply false. if you, Josh want to debate science with me pls keep your bible away. thank you....

Ihedinobi: GeneralShepherd, how does what I know about you make you do anything? How does God's knowledge of what you will do cause you to do anything? Help me establish a clear cause-effect relationship here.

how can you in good conscience always pretend to be ignorant in order to defend your god?

Mr Troll: how can you in good conscience always pretend to be ignorant in order to defend your god?

I always pretend to be ignorant? Lol. How? You don't expect me to simply swallow whatever you say as true, do you? Aren't you irreligious folks the ones who insist that we should use our brains and ask questions?

If you know how one sentient being's knowledge can directly cause another to act in a particular way, please tell me and let me lose my "ignorance" or any excuse I have to pretend to it.

Ihedinobi: GeneralShepherd, how does what I know about you make you do anything? How does God's knowledge of what you will do cause you to do anything? Help me establish a clear cause-effect relationship here.

We have beewn thru this........


The knowledge of an omniscient is binding.....it must happen. Jesus knew that Judas would betray him and it happened.

If God knows that you will eat yam 2moro.....you must eat d yam d next day....or God aint omniscient

Ihedinobi:
I always pretend to be ignorant? Lol. How? You don't expect me to simply swallow whatever you say as true, do you? Aren't you irreligious folks the ones who insist that we should use our brains and ask questions?

If you know how one sentient being's knowledge can directly cause another to act in a particular way, please tell me and let me lose my "ignorance" or any excuse I have to pretend to it.

ok...

Say i'm a programmer and I make a robot that can move form point A to point B through point C,D, and E. omniscience requires that I fully know that the robot must move from A to B through C,D and E. if I then now say that the robot has 'freewill', that it can choose to go from A to B through any other route. is this not a mockery of so called freewill? I already know how the robot will move. saying the robot has freewill is simply laughable because no matter that the robot thinks it is making a conscious choice to move from A to B through C,D, and E, it is only doing what it has been programmed to do. if the robot passes through another route, it simply implies that either I , the maker am really not omniscient with respect to the robot or that I actually didn't make the robot because if make something and have omniscience then I totally KNOW all what the robot will do and the ability to do what it will do was put there by me. so pls tell me how Gods Omniscience and my 'Freewill" can go together.


I know you are quite intelligent but you can't pull off this type of sophistry. you can simply say you don't know. it takes nothing away from your belief in Yahweh.

Logicboy03:



We have beewn thru this........


The knowledge of an omniscient is binding.....it must happen. Jesus knew that Judas would betray him and it happened.

If God knows that you will eat yam 2moro.....you must eat d yam d next day....or God aint omniscient

Of course we have. We have been through a lot that appears never actually went hrough you.

Insisting that you are right is not going to prove to me that you are. It's a simple question I asked. How does God's knowledge cause you to do anything? If I push you off a cliff, I have caused you to fall off a cliff. Direct involvement. Now show me how God knowing that you'll eat yam tomorrow causes you to eat yam. How does His knowledge directly result in any action you take or your refraining from some action?

^^^
@Ihe, he also made us. so whatever ability we have to do anything was given to us by him. knowing what we will do with the ability he gave us to do it implicitly contradicts whatever notion we have of freewill.

Ihedinobi:
Did you realize that by saying "as long as they don't go against the law of the land" you just agreed with me? The law of the land in the case you refered to is the objective moral standard every inhabitant of said land must submit to, so obviously they can't do just whatever they please unless they are only ever pleased to dp what the law allows.

Of course if everyone subscribed to a universal moral standard, there would be no conflicts at all. But we don't. There is a difference between claiming the same lawgiver and claiming the same laws with another person or other people. Sun'nis and Shi'ites both claim Allah as their Supreme Moral Authority but they disagree on what some of his laws are. The laws themselves, not Allah, are the objective moral standard. If they disagree on any of them there'll be conflict and that is what the case is.

Good. Now that ure equating the law of the land with objective moral authority, you have raised more questions than answers. You said when people subscribe to the same objective moral authority like the law of the land, there won't be conflicts.

Can you please help me explain how subscrbing to the law of the land prevents conflicts between a husband and the wife? If subscribing to the law of the land was all that's necessary to prevent couples from conflicting, there won't be failed marriages.

Can you help me explain how subscribing to the law of the land prevents conflicts between me and my younger brother?

Can you please help explain how subscribing to the law of the land prevents conflicts an apprentice and his boss?

Whatever way you define objective moral standards, it can never prevent conflicts even though everyone subscribes to it.

As for the case of sunni and shiite muslims, you said something I really liked, "if they disagree on any of them, there would be conflicts". Meaning their objective moral standards is itself not sufficient to prevent conflicts between them as it is subject to disagreement or agreements. For something to be really objective, everyone (except psychopaths and mentally challenged ones) has to agree with it or disagree with it. So far, no moral has been shown to be so.

Mr Troll:

ok...

Say i'm a programmer and I make a robot that can move form point A to point B through point C,D, and E. omniscience requires that I fully know that the robot must move from A to B through C,D and E. if I then now say that the robot has 'freewill', that it can choose to go from A to B through any other route. is this not a mockery of so called freewill? I already know how the robot will move. saying the robot has freewill is simply laughable because no matter that the robot thinks it is making a conscious choice to move from A to B through C,D, and E, it is only doing what it has been programmed to do. if the robot passes through another route, it simply implies that either I , the maker am really not omniscient with respect to the robot or that I actually didn't make the robot because if make something and have omniscience then I totally KNOW all what the robot will do and the ability to do what it will do was put there by me. so pls tell me how Gods Omniscience and my 'Freewill" can go together.

You made a robot. You programmed it to act in a fixed way. That is the source of your omniscience. That is why your robot has no free will.

God created man, not a robot. If we can use the programming logic, then man was programmed to program himself, that is, man is a self-writing program, one that is able to delete codes in itaelf, rewrite itself and reinvent itself as many times as allowed by its run-life. God is just the super-smart programmer who knows all the possible alternatives that the program (man) can choose and knows which a given program will choose because He knows every possible property of the program.

I think it's really simple. I don't have to program anything to know with 100% accuracy what it will do. I just need to know everything possible about it and the environment it operates in. That information related correctly mathematically will tell me, a finite being, what exactly a being I have NO control over will do in any particular situation.

We do this in probability classes all the time. I shouldn't need to write a long lecture about it.

I know you are quite intelligent but you can't pull off this type of sophistry. you can simply say you don't know. it takes nothing away from your belief in Yahweh.

I'm sure you know what you know. I also know what I know. When I don't know I declare that I don't or refrain from offering an opinion. I won't claim ignorance when I do know something, bro.

Mr Troll: ^^^
@Ihe, he also made us. so whatever ability we have to do anything was given to us by him. knowing what we will do with the ability he gave us to do it implicitly contradicts whatever notion we have of freewill.

Actually it doesn't. Men around the world right this minute are being given very deadly skills to protect their fellow countrymen. Those skills can also be turned around to harm their fellow countrymen and some of those men do turn them around so. Does the fact that they do mean that the state made them murderers?

Ihedinobi:
Actually it doesn't. Men around the world right this minute are being given very deadly skills to protect their fellow countrymen. Those skills can also be turned around to harm their fellow countrymen and some of those men do turn them around so. Does the fact that they do mean that the state made them murderers?

at least the state is not omniscient. do you know what omniscience means?

So god already knows i am going to hell! cool!!

Mr Troll: at least the state is not omniscient. do you know what omniscience means?

do you know what freewill means?

free will
n.
1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.


Man has the ability to choose. God knows the end, his final choice. But the choice is man's

nnofaith: So god already knows i am going to hell! cool!!

And yet, he created you

nnofaith: So god already knows i am going to hell! cool!!

we don't know if you're going to hell or heaven. God knows. We are here to preach to you, to advise you not to go to hell. God is in us. Preaching to you.

Joshthefirst: do you know what freewill means?

free will
n.
1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.


Man has the ability to choose. God knows the end, his final choice. But the choice is man's

If you really can't see the problem with the bolded, anyone trying to reply you is just wasting his time. You won't still see it

Ihedinobi:
You made a robot. You programmed it to act in a fixed way. That is the source of your omniscience. That is why your robot has no free will.

God created man, not a robot. If we can use the programming logic, then man was programmed to program himself, that is, man is a self-writing program, one that is able to delete codes in itself, rewrite itself and reinvent itself as many times as allowed by its run-life. God is just the super-smart programmer who knows all the possible alternatives that the program (man) can choose and knows which a given program will choose because He knows every possible property of the program.

I think it's really simple. I don't have to program anything to know with 100% accuracy what it will do. I just need to know everything possible about it and the environment it operates in. That information related correctly mathematically will tell me, a finite being, what exactly a being I have NO control over will do in any particular situation.

We do this in probability classes all the time. I shouldn't need to write a long lecture about it.


I'm sure you know what you know. I also know what I know. When I don't know I declare that I don't or refrain from offering an opinion. I won't claim ignorance when I do know something, bro.

@bold, this is circular reasoning my friend. you cannot assume the position you are trying to prove, in this case that Man is not a robot with an illusion of freewill.

omniscience is not a case of knowing all the possible outcomes. it is knowing, with certainty what action the being will take. and being the creator of said being, also implies giving the being the ability to do what you already know it will do....

rationalmind:

If you really can't see the problem with the bolded, anyone trying to reply you is just wasting his time. You won't still see it

if you really can't see the equation of omniscience from the standpoint of an eternal judge who is also a loving father, you're being willfully decieved.

rationalmind:

If you really can't see the problem with the bolded, anyone trying to reply you is just wasting his time. You won't still see it

you are wasting your time with him. he spews contradictory statements left, right, and center and yet can't see it even if you show it to him.

Mr Troll: @bold, this is circular reasoning my friend. you cannot assume the position you are trying to prove, in this case that Man is not a robot with an illusion of freewill.

omniscience is not a case of knowing all the possible outcomes. it is knowing, with certainty what action the being will take. and being the creator of said being, also implies giving the being the ability to do what you already know it will do....

the bolded is where your problem lies.

God has given man the ability to make a free choice. As I said before, his omniscient knowledge does not infringe on mans ability.

The ability you speak of, is freewill itself, and it does not enable or monopolize man to make God's choice. THE CHOICE IS GOD's NOT MANS. Freewill is the ability to choose.

Omniscience is the knowledge of the final choice. Both of them are exclusive.

nnofaith: So god already knows i am going to hell! cool!!

since i am hell bound, i might as well say my mind to god and have my peace;









fu*k you!

Joshthefirst: the bolded is where your problem lies.

God has given man the ability to make a free choice. As I said before, his omniscient knowledge does not infringe on mans ability.

The ability you speak of, is freewill itself, and it does not enable or monopolize man to make God's choice. THE CHOICE IS GOD's NOT MANS. Freewill is the ability to choose.

Omniscience is the knowledge of the final choice. Both of them are exclusive.

bros, I've told you. Stay away from my posts. don't argue with me. I have no time to entertain your foolish logic.