Let us just agree with the independent relationship between omniscience and freew8ll.
Are you guys (xtians) trying to tell me that we are going to be judged by an omniscience being that created us? Meaning the omniscient being which gave you the ability to make choices, knew and knows where your final choices will lead you to before you were made(heaven/hell). Isnt creating man as robots without freewill is better?

Ihedinobi:
Well, nobody can say that neither of us tried, abi?

Point of correction! Nobody can say you didn't try! Count Josh out of it,even when I was a christian I always respected the way you attempt to answer these question. Josh? No way, his answers address nothing

Joshthefirst: he's waiting for you and others, giving them time

Doesnt this statement contradict his power of omniscience!!!

Joshthefirst: he's waiting for you and others, giving them time

this contradicts his omniscience!

@ GeneralShepherd you can email me on mazaje247@yahoo.com. . .

nnofaith: Doesnt this statement contradict his power of omniscience!!!

no. Justice requires him to give everyone a chance to make a choice. Love requires him to be longsuffering

Joshthefirst: no. Justice requires him to give everyone a chance to make a choice. Love requires him to be longsuffering

he already knows they are beyond redemption what time is he giving them again?!!

omniscience doesnt make any sense. be honest for once.

nnofaith: he already knows they are beyond redemption what time is he giving them again?!!

omniscience doesnt make any sense. be honest for once.

you will be the same one to curse him in judgement saying:
You didn't give me enough time and patience like you gave others, I would have repented!

Now in convinced christians are brain dead. I'm encouraging everyone to click on the link provided by Josh to read what they refer to as archealogical evidence.

GeneralShepherd:

Point of correction! Nobody can say you didn't try! Count Josh out of it,even when I was a christian I always respected the way you attempt to answer these question. Josh? No way, his answers address nothing

I guess ihe was referring to both of us initially. All the same, I concur with you. Ihe is really trying. Unlike Josh who answers nothing.

rationalmind: Now in convinced christians are brain dead. I'm encouraging everyone to click on the link provided by Josh to read what they refer to as archealogical evidence.

see another link here:

http://www.everystudent.com/features/bible.html#arch

Joshthefirst: you will be the same one to curse him in judgement saying:
You didn't give me enough time and patience like you gave others, I would have repented!

he would have known the above too. why should it bother him?!

Culled from the link Josh provided....


Historical/Archeological Facts. One very interesting
area of historical facts about Christianity is the area of
archeology in the Old Testament. Here are two
examples.
Example #1. Prior to 1853 there were some who did
not believe that the nation of Israel crossed the Red Sea
as mentioned in the Old Testament (Exodus 14:13-31).
They claimed the Israelites really walked across ankle
deep water. There are problems with this view. The first
is very obvious - how did the Egyptian army drown in
ankle deep water? The second problem is that the
absence of an archeological record does not mean the
event did not occur. It would be like saying 1,000 years
from now that I did not go to a particular resturant for
dinner because there is no record. What is worse, in
1853, Dr. P. A. Stanley discovered six ancient, Aramic
inscriptions on the cliffs of the Wadi Sidri in the
Penunsula of Sinai . The inscriptions recorded the
historical crossing of the Red Sea. Here is an excerpt
from the Aramic inscriptions (A. P. Stanley, Sinai and
Palestine, London: John Murray, 1905, p. 70),
The leader divided part the sea, its waves
roaring.
The people enter, and pass through the midst
of the waters.
The wind blowing, the sea dividing into parts,
they pass over.
The Hebrews flee through the sea, the sea is
turned into dry land.
Their enemies weep for the dead, the virgins
are wailing.
The sea flowing down overwhelmed them.
The waters were let loose to flow again.

Joshthefirst: oh so now you claim jesus didn't exist?
Lol.
What did mohammed do and say and claim?
Jesus went about teaching and healing and preaching. Then he went and died for our sins. Did mohammed die for our sins?
Did mohammed save us from hell and Gods judgement?
Did mohammed heal.

Did mohammed say these words:

John 8:58 "Believe me," said Jesus, "I am who I am long before Abraham was anything." (The Message)

John 11:25-26 "You don't have to wait for the End. I am, right now, Resurrection and Life. The one who believes in me, even though he or she dies, will live. And everyone who lives believing in me does not ultimately die at all. Do you believe this?"

John 14:6-7 Jesus said, "I am the Road, also the Truth, also the Life. No one gets to the Father apart from me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him. You've even seen him!"

What has mohammed and your atheism done for you? Has it tackled the problem of your sins? No. Jesus did that by dieing for us on that cross.

It is recorded. And it is proved in our lives.

What is sin? what has Christianity done for Nigeria? Doesn't it bother you that there are crippled beggars outside churches? Tell your Jesus to heal them. Because Jesus said something doesn't make it true.

Joshthefirst: oh so now you claim jesus didn't exist?
Lol.
What did mohammed do and say and claim?
Jesus went about teaching and healing and preaching. Then he went and died for our sins. Did mohammed die for our sins?
Did mohammed save us from hell and Gods judgement?
Did mohammed heal.

Did mohammed say these words:

John 8:58 "Believe me," said Jesus, "I am who I am long before Abraham was anything." (The Message)

John 11:25-26 "You don't have to wait for the End. I am, right now, Resurrection and Life. The one who believes in me, even though he or she dies, will live. And everyone who lives believing in me does not ultimately die at all. Do you believe this?"

John 14:6-7 Jesus said, "I am the Road, also the Truth, also the Life. No one gets to the Father apart from me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him. You've even seen him!"

What has mohammed and your atheism done for you? Has it tackled the problem of your sins? No. Jesus did that by dieing for us on that cross.

It is recorded. And it is proved in our lives.

What is sin? what has Christianity done for Nigeria? Doesn't it bother you that there are crippled beggars outside churches? Tell your Jesus to heal them. Because Jesus said something doesn't make it true.

Joshthefirst: oh so now you claim jesus didn't exist?
Lol.
What did mohammed do and say and claim?
Jesus went about teaching and healing and preaching. Then he went and died for our sins. Did mohammed die for our sins?
Did mohammed save us from hell and Gods judgement?
Did mohammed heal.

Did mohammed say these words:

John 8:58 "Believe me," said Jesus, "I am who I am long before Abraham was anything." (The Message)

John 11:25-26 "You don't have to wait for the End. I am, right now, Resurrection and Life. The one who believes in me, even though he or she dies, will live. And everyone who lives believing in me does not ultimately die at all. Do you believe this?"

John 14:6-7 Jesus said, "I am the Road, also the Truth, also the Life. No one gets to the Father apart from me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him. You've even seen him!"

What has mohammed and your atheism done for you? Has it tackled the problem of your sins? No. Jesus did that by dieing for us on that cross.

It is recorded. And it is proved in our lives.

What is sin? what has Christianity done for Nigeria? Doesn't it bother you that there are crippled beggars outside churches? Tell your Jesus to heal them. Because Jesus said something doesn't make it true.

For all it's worth, am wondering what quite a lot of pple are saying these days. NJot quite surprised though because in these day pple shall become loveer of themselves, puffed up and knowledge the bible says shall increase.
Mind you religion is not the salvation of the world, Jesus is. Christianity is not religion. It is a way of life. Every man has the power of choice hence God saying in Deut30: 15 - 20, he has place before man the choice, and he is admonishing us to choose correctly. My prayer is that we don't make choices that leads to damnation and hell.

Come to think of it. Jesus greatest word to us is all about love, not just loving God but loving ourselves. He even said if we do not love others then how can we claim to love God. And if we can just accept his love, what do we have to lose except for those worldly pleasure that often bring regret on the long run, fornication/adultery, lying, drinking, murder, slandering, etc. These are what we feel we gain, they may bring power, wealth and fame but on the long run, we start to regret saying I could have done this better, I shouldn't have done this. But with Christ you can have all these and more as life only is complete in him.

Shalom. Do have a lovely day
Abimei

@ Joshthefirst .....your argument are very illogical to the intellect. It may be better for you to own up to the fact that some occurrences are beyond even faith in God!

You appear to me like you are completely brainwashed and without hope of redemption!

Ihedinobi:
And that would be the, what, millionth time on NL? Beyond amusement, why should I spend the energy yet again?

You threw down the bait only to leave it hanging. Funny dude.

Answer my own questions first.

What is the question?

@Joshthefirst.......its clear to everyone who chooses to be honest and forthright that your arguments concerning 'God's' omniscience and freewill are simply tenuous and ridiculous!

Omniscience of God and man's freewill are irreconcilable.....no amount of demagoguery and parochial quotes from your holy book will change that...there are many 'infallible holy books' in the world joor!

aManFromMars:
What's keeping him?

E never finish the mansion them. For someone who created the universe in 6 days though. . .

aManFromMars: What proof do you have that Jesus solved the problem of sin? Even those who believe still battle with sin everyday.

Jesus, if he lived, died for himself and no other. No proof that he ever resurrected.

i've sent u a mail..i'm expecting ur reply..tanx

So far say amanfrommars don come inside the matter make una Giv am road... The guy no well... ND who come be all this new atheists?......

anthoniosp: So far say amanfrommars don come inside the matter make una Giv am road... The guy no well... ND who come be all this new atheists?......

. Who bé this?

Logicboy03: . Who bé this?

TFJ - Troll For Jesus.

aManFromMars:

TFJ - Troll For Jesus.

smh...... Shey I tell una the guy no well...

Logicboy03:

1) Abortion is not forced by any government. I saw your lies about China. Abortion is only permitted. You are allowed to have only one child. Abortions caused by certain mistakes or illnesses have been reduced by modern science.

Stop lying

Olodo! Google forced abortions and cure your arrogance in ignorance!

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_abortion

Logicboy03: 2) We are talking about chattel slavery.....chattel slavery. That doesnt exist in any developed country. That is progress. There is no where you will see a chained man being bargained for like a piece of cloth.

chattel slavery has been replaced by modern day slavery. I think you spend all your life on nairaland. Learn about modern day slavery.

Logicboy03: 3) New diseases are a product of evolution and experimentation which most of the time are beyond human capabilities to stop. However, we have removed and destroyed many diseases as a result of modern science. That is progress. New diseases will always come but we are now better equipped to fight any new disease. Progress

Many new diseases are as a result of man's artificial activities or abuse of nature. Many of these can be curtailed or eradicated. Man has just refused to do so.

Logicboy03: 4) Global warming and ozone depletion will happen and it is almost beyond man's ability to stop. As long as we use fire, heat and steam, it is inevitable....blame God for creating such a flawed atmosphere

Are you this uninformed or are you just being dishonest?

Global warming can be stopped according to scientists.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/05/070504-global-warming.html

THIS IS REGRESS, not progress.

Logicboy03:



I just had to take a break from you and Josh's silliness, only to come back and meet more.


Anony must have taught you this ridiculous method of thinking. You want to apply "cause and effect" to a metaphysical concept.

In short, you want to tie a physical explanation (cause-effect) to a metaphysical concept (omniscience)


Why not ask for the cause and effect of prophecies to action? What is the cause and effect of a prophet of God in the old testament saying that a Messiah will come and hundreds of years later, Mary gives birth to the Messiah.......how did the prophet make Mary to give birth to the Messiah? Where is the cause and effect?


See your silliness? Sorry, but you and Joshthefirst are trolls, you just make up silly arguments whenever cornered and then act ignorant to the solid rebuttals.



Back to the topic, omniscience, prophecies and other metaphysical claims are assessed with logic. The problem is that all these metaphysical claims of religion are always found wanting....they are illogical.

Omniscience is a self contradictory concept. This is why it has problems in the real world. Omniscience can not exist with man's freewill because everything that will happen is known. Whatever choices you make are already known- meaning that you are just with an illusion of choice as your path has already been set. Professional philosophers have already explained this problem. Even christians have acknowledged this problem. The logic is simple and clear.


Omniscience itself can not exist. An omniscient being cant exist

What silliness? You think we're silly for thinking for ourselves and not accepting your dogma that omniscience contradicts free will. We're silly for demanding proof? But y'all aren't for insisting that theists prove the existence of God without appeal to any authority that upholds it? Lolololol.

Proof is not:
1. Even Christians agree that free will and omniscience are mutually exclusive

2. Two encyclopaedias have articles on the "contradiction".

3. Physical metaphysical mumbo jumbo.

Are you saying that cause-effect is operative only on physical things? Love causes men to do the silliest things, things like take the longer way to the coffee pot just to catch a glimpse of their sweetheart. Is love physical?

You say omniscience is self-contradicting because God doesn't know how to remember. Lol. If memory recall is something God designed himself as a feature of his sentient creatures, He obvioualy doesn't need to possess the feature Himself to know how it works. It's just like saying that an engineer does not know how to produce music because he doesn't sing even though he created computers and devices that make or produce music.

frank3.16:


i have never liked responding to ur post because u prefer to sound smart by playing ignorance... very annoying.

nobody here is stuupid, why are you asking such a senseless question, yet think its wise.

how does God's knowing what you will do force you to do it? i have never seen such a sillly question, are you assuming every person here is foolish?

if God knows i will sleep by 4am am i not bound to sleep by 4am? if i sleep by 3am what does it say about what God knows? if God knows i will sleep by 4am how can i make a choice different from what God knows? if what HE knows does not come to pass, how can he claim he knows it? once he knows it what he knows must be, if not he does not know it, if it does then there is no freewill. you cant twist this and come out with anything reasonable. its either he knows or he does not know(you can say chose not to know) but both cant be possible yet you preach freewill.

you call him Omnipotent and try to make him sound like an ordinary human.

Lol @ sounding smart by playing ignorance. What does that even mean?

Dude, you have not made an argument. You have continued to perpetuate a statement and try to shove some conviction of yours down our throat. An argument starts with premises that lead to a conclusion. Your premise and conclusion are the same, that is circular reasoning. You insist that God's omniscience contradicts human free will because human free will contradicts Gid's omniscience. How does that sound like a serious argument to you? Even if 6.9 billion people make that same argument, it would still be ridiculous.

You still need to show how either contradicts the other. It is not enough to insist that one does because the other does too.

mazaje:

What are you on about?. . .A very pious muslim, buddist etc and a very good and humane atheist all perish for not accepting the Jesus story according to the theology you subscribe to. . .So what exactly are you on about?. . .

What, are you now being dishonest or suffering from amnesia? Weren't you claiming that the Bible didn't say anything about sin and iniquity?

Logicboy03: Christian philosophers, atheisdt philosophers etc have all come tto the logical conclusion that omniscience and freewill cant exist together.....


But no, JOsh and Ihe would like us to believe otherwise.

Even the encyclopedia of philosophy is clear on this issue. I put two encyclopedias forward, yet ihe rejected them........this is the madness of faith.....rejecting common sense when it defies ur religion.....



And before anyone claims that i amb using appeal to authoerity......the logic is quite clear.......god knows everything and so, all you are doing is following gods knowledge...u aint making any choice

Christian philosophers and former atheists too have acknowledged the existence of God. I don't see you rushing to church to enjoy fellowship with fellow believers.

Oh, this is not exactly the fallacy of appeal to authority but it's certainly not logic either.

mazaje:

You are completely deluded to have uttered such. . .Hope you know that most of the events in the bible have no historical backing outside the bible?. . .Archaeology and history actually disproof the bible. . .Don't go to christian fundamentalist sites and be reading nonsense and lies by people that will do or say anything to further their faith. .

Of course he shouldn't go to "fundamentalist christian sites", he should go to "rational atheistic sites".