nannymcphee:

Herein lies my confusion, if I'm to practice the doctrines why can't I emulate Paul with respect to the snake bite

Because we do have things called 'signs'. We don't pitch our tents at the signs when traveling, they only help to navigate us to our destination. In this case, creation of the church was the mission, and the miracles were the signs leading the people to the truth.

Paul did not ask anyone to try what he tried, his teachings was centered around God's grace. He never encouraged any new revelations or supernatural experiences like he had, rather he warned them to stick to what they learned through him. Titus will automatically become a false teacher if he adds his personal experiences to what Paul had taught him. In other words, any personal experience will remain personal and not a standard or an addendum to the word of God.

nannymcphee:
you still haven't explained what Jesus meant & the application of the gifts of the Holy Spirit in the life of the present day Christian

Jesus said lay hands on the sick, they will recover, you said the sick should go for drugs

The job of the Holy Spirit was to teach us the truth- that was done through doctrine

His job is also to store in our heart(soul life) the truth that we have learned.

At the initiation of the Holy Spirit, gifts were given. We know from the history of the Jews and by the Word that the Jews only believe in signs, these signs were given so they will be of no excuse. Even with the signs, they refused the message which happens to be the main essence for miracles.

Jesus never said the present christian will have these powers, He was speaking to His apostles at the time. I think we must realise that Paul was not just making up words especially in that book of Romans where he explained what it means to be a christian and who a christian really is. He was actually a mouth piece of the risen Christ. I believed him when he said he was taught by Christ(risen) unlike the rest who learned through Jesus(earthly).

shdemidemi:

Because we do have things called 'signs'. We don't pitch our tents at the signs when traveling, they only help to navigate us to our destination. In this case, creation of the church was the mission, and the miracles were the signs leading the people to the truth.

Paul did not ask anyone to try what he tried, his teachings was centered around God's grace. He never encouraged any new revelations or supernatural experiences like he had, rather he warned them to stick to what they learned through him. Titus will automatically become a false teacher if he adds his personal experiences to what Paul had taught him. In other words, any personal experience will remain personal and not a standard or an addendum to the word of God.




The job of the Holy Spirit was to teach us the truth- that was done through doctrine

His job is also to store in our heart(soul life) the truth that we have learned.

At the initiation of the Holy Spirit, gifts were given. We know from the history of the Jews and by the Word that the Jews only believe in signs, these signs were given so they will be of no excuse. Even with the signs, they refused the message which happens to be the main essence for miracles.

Jesus never said the present christian will have these powers, He was speaking to His apostles at the time. I think we must realise that Paul was not just making up words especially in that book of Romans where he explained what it means to be a christian and who a christian really is. He was actually a mouth piece of the risen Christ. I believed him when he said he was taught by Christ(risen) unlike the rest who learned through Jesus(earthly).

things are a little bit clear, but in the quest for further clarification

1. Should present day Christian act on James instruction in the face of sickness

2. Do u believe in speaking in tongues for the present day Christian

3. Those gifts of the Holy Spirit was for the apostle not for the present day Christian

4. If Jesus empower the apostles to go teach all nations & gave them those power how will the present day Christian preach the gospel without such empowerment

thanks, I await answers

mbaemeka:

Simple comprehension again. In CHRIST I would have peace but In the WORLD I would have tribulation.

Am I In Christ OR am I in the WORLD?

of course you are in the world, i guess you wanted to say you are not of the world.

You ain't immune to world challenges bro, like Paul told Timothy, he told you this too -
2 Tim 1
8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

This is one of those rare moments when you see somebody you don't even know saying exactly 100% of what you have in your mind about a particular subject. GOD BLESS FOR THIS COMMENT


[quote author=Candour][/quote]

When people ask me today which church I attend, I tell them I belong to the body of Christ.

This is why Despite being a catholic inside out, I will never entertain the idea that the catholic church or any other church is the all and all when it comes to finding the one true church. The one true church is the BODY OF CHRIST! And we all esp those who worship God in truth and in spirit is part of that body! No matter the denomination you worship in.

I think there's something about starting a new 'church' that turns the founders into monsters

This is the biggest problem I must say. Just look @ the saga btw 'United Kingdom and oyedepo' esp when it comes to that tithing aspect or is it the controversial comments of pastor chris on self-sex? Actually this is one of the places where I can't help but admire the catholic church (nobody's voice is final not even the pope)

in a short time that leaves me in no doubt that new testament Christianity is against denominationalism. God seeks those who will worship him in spirit and in truth and that picture gets clearer when you start digging into the core of any denominational group you find yourself. You will always find rottenness every time

Very true. There is hardly any denomination without some sort of question mark
This is why inspite of being against some meaningless and self-serving dogmas in the catholic church, unlike so many pipo who have been in this my position before, I have never ever kickstarted any unnecessary tour as to find the ultimate/true church to worship and I won't! Why? --answer is in john 4:21-24. Its simply a waste of time.

If my friends on NL decides to open a church, he can be sure I won't attend. If you say a bible study group where we can study, fellowship and challenge our positions on bible doctrine, then count me in.

Same with me. That's why making friends with my fellow catholic members looks to me like a task that not even hercules himself can solve. Why? Its simple. Aside fom members of the catholic charismatic renewal, it will take some thorough searching to find a catholic who has any iota of interest when it comes to studying the bible. Don't ask me how I knew becos you always know when you engage in spiritual/religious convos with them. That's why I am quiet sure--- though av not asked him--- that probability of sum1 like italo being a charismatic renewal member is very high!

shdemidemi:

of course you are in the world, i guess you wanted to say you are not of the world.

You ain't immune to world challenges bro, like Paul told Timothy, he told you this too -
2 Tim 1
8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

Salvation is of the soul. Your flesh is still of the adamic nature and subject to the elements of the world. The rapture will get us new bodies that will not be subject to any corruption.

Someone wrote the above earlier

Galatian4:1-4
1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law

in the light of ur post & the above quote, can u explain what Paul meant with the scripture I quoted especially the bolder part & the following verse?

Still expecting answers to my previous question

alentyno: This is why Despite being a catholic inside out, I will never entertain the idea that the catholic church or any other church is the all and all when it comes to finding the one true church. The one true church is the BODY OF CHRIST! And we all esp those who worship God in truth and in spirit is part of that body! No matter the denomination you worship in.

The catholic church teaches that it is the one true church that Jesus founded.

If you don't believe that, yet claim to be catholic and chant "I believe" at mass on Sunday. You are either ignorant or a hypocrite.

alentyno:
Very true. There is hardly any denomination without some sort of question mark
This is why inspite of being against some meaningless and self-serving dogmas in the catholic church, unlike so many pipo who have been in this my position before, I have never ever kickstarted any unnecessary tour as to find the ultimate/true church to worship and I won't! Why? --answer is in john 4:21-24. Its simply a waste of time.

If you're against the teachings of the Church, how can you say you're Catholic?

The Holy Spirit has told us that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. If you believe that church can teach false dogmas, there is something mightily wrong with you.

And there is nothing like "denominations." All those other organizations were founded b men to cater to their selfish desires.

Jesus has only one Church.

alentyno: Same with me. That's why making friends with my fellow catholic members looks to me like a task that not even hercules himself can solve. Why? Its simple. Aside fom members of the catholic charismatic renewal, it will take some thorough searching to find a catholic who has any iota of interest when it comes to studying the bible. Don't ask me how I knew becos you always know when you engage in spiritual/religious convos with them. That's why I am quiet sure--- though av not asked him--- that probability of sum1 like italo being a charismatic renewal member is very high!

Even though I know that many catholics dont study the bible as much as they should, they still know the bible more than most non-catholics. They have been taught the fullness of the truth from the bible as interpreted by the Church - pillar and foundation of truth, while protestants are being taught half truths and lies by selfish men who use the bible to pursue their own desires.

If you study the bible erroneously 24-7 and I am taught just one truth a year, I'm still more knowledgeable than you.

And I am not, and have never been a member of Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

nannymcphee:

things are a little bit clear, but in the quest for further clarification

1. Should present day Christian act on James instruction in the face of sickness

This issue of James and the Old Testament raises a lot of confusion even amongst pastors. Most people use the scripture that says "all scripture is God breathed" hence we must apply every part of the scripture even as non-Jews. This sort of doctrine permits one to go into a book like psalm to pick and claim promises while we ignore curses regardless of whom the audience or the speaker is.

The book of James is God breathed quite all right, but, should it be applied as a doctrinal book to Christians?

Was it addressed to the church, James 1:1? I believe James was speaking from what use to be the norm among the Jews.

The Jews had their tradition, customs, temple worship and the earthly oracle of God which happens to be a shadow of the spiritual. They had things like oil amongst other things which they used on their sick. From a Christian viewpoint, oil is a symbol of the Holy Spirit, therefore the use of oil on the sick isn't applicable to the church.

nannymcphee:


2. Do u believe in speaking in tongues for the present day Christian

I believe all the other gifts save the gift of Evangelism and the gift of teaching were signs that brought about the truth. I don't think speaking in tongue edifies the body of Christ, if it doesn't, I really do not see the use for speaking in tongues within the church.

nannymcphee:
3. Those gifts of the Holy Spirit was for the apostle not for the present day Christian

I think we should ask ourselves if the apostles that had the power to wrought countless miracles had it permanently and all through their lives.

nannymcphee:
4. If Jesus empower the apostles to go teach all nations & gave them those power how will the present day Christian preach the gospel without such empowerment

thanks, I await answers

They never had the bible at the time, the apostles went by the way of miracles to prove to the people that they were really of God. God gave the people the opportunity to see that they might believe. Today, God isn't operating with us based on the worldly phrase that says 'seeing is believing', He is saying believe even when you do not see wonders.

Jesus never got the people to hear him by miracles, they see the miracles, yet they conspire to kill him and still walk away when He starts to speak the word. Miracles never change the mind of anyone today, the power to bring change is in the Word.

'For I am not ashamed of the gospel of God for it is the power of God unto salvation'.

italo:


The catholic church teaches that it is the one true church that Jesus founded.

If you don't believe that, yet claim to be catholic and chant "I believe" at mass on Sunday. You are either ignorant or a hypocrite.

There is no point arguing this one with you because your definition of church (ie the physical structure is more important than the spiritual structure) and mine (the spiritual structure is and will always be more important than the physical structure anytime anyday!) are both parallel and opposite.

If you're against the teachings of the Church, how can you say you're Catholic?

The Holy Spirit has told us that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. If you believe that church can teach false dogmas, there is something mightily wrong with you.

I believe in holy eucharist, holy penance, holy orders, baptism, confirmation etc. Read my sentence again it says 'some'. If you still confused consult the dictionary to check out the meaning.
Yes.what is mightily wrong in your eyes is I alentyno refuse to be stupid in reciting 'the hail mary' 53 times while I only say 'the lord's prayer' only 6 times in the course of praying the rosary and yet still foolishly and dumbly claim that I reverence Jesus christ more than mary. Its dumb.

2. I can't greet catholics 'ave maria' 90 percent of the time I run into them thus rarely saying 'praise God' and still claim the reverence I have for Jesus is greater than that for mary. Delusion is the last thing I will ever buy in my life.

And there is nothing like "denominations." All those other organizations were founded b men to cater to their selfish desires.

Jesus has only one Church.

If for example I was born into an RCCG family and I grow up to know Jesus christ, believe in him, live according to his standards, abhor pride of life and lust of the flesh, be steadfast and prayerful all my life, pay my tithe, give alms to the poor, strive with all my might to live a holy (and thus achieve it in the process) and last but not the least win souls for Him through evangelization. Remember I did all these without believing in the rosary, pulgatory nor praying to saints and all that due to my christain background. If I die today(in a holy state) where will I go? Heaven or hell?
Answer this question or don't ever quote me again!.......syncan, candour, pastoroluT salC, francistony, babestell et all you're needed for this particular question

Even though I know that many catholics dont study the bible as much as they should, they still know the bible more than most non-catholics. They have been taught the fullness of the truth from the bible as interpreted by the Church - pillar and foundation of truth

The bolded just won award for 'the most delusioned lie of the century'. Clap for yourself

while protestants are being taught half truths and lies by selfish men who use the bible to pursue their own desires.

Answer this---- is it ALL OF THEM? Ie 100% of all pentecostals? Remember if you dont have any answer, then forget about deviating from the question thus explaining what you were not asked. Don't just quote me!

If you study the bible erroneously 24-7 and I am taught just one truth a year, I'm still more knowledgeable than you.

I know you're trying all you can to drive home your point but my dear sire even the devil knows that the only reason why you have been able to indulge in debates with atheists and protestants is mostly due your diligence in studying the bible.
Remember the catholic church takes nothing less than 2 years to cover the bible due to the fact that their approach towards God's word is that of a kid who was given the license to eat a plate of rice yet the kid prefers to 'count-eat' it grain by grain. If you doubt the stat, ask your priest

And I am not, and have never been a member of Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

You need to be one. Your sincerity and eagerness to study God's word can't just waste away like that!

alentyno:

If for example I was born into an RCCG family and I grow up to know Jesus christ, believe in him, live according to his standards, abhor pride of life and lust of the flesh, be steadfast and prayerful all my life, pay my tithe, give alms to the poor, strive with all my might to live a holy (and thus achieve it in the process) and last but not the least win souls for Him through evangelization. Remember I did all these without believing in the rosary, pulgatory nor praying to saints and all that due to my christain background. If I die today(in a holy state) where will I go? Heaven or hell?
Answer this question or don't ever quote me again!.......syncan, candour, pastoroluT salC, francistony, babestell et all you're needed for this particular question

If 'I' for an example was born a muslim, do what pleases God, obey God's commandment, believe in Jesus and uphold to his teaching(atleast, quaran said they should do so), gives arm to the needy and never murdered anybody in the name of jihad(holy war). Do you believe I will make heaven or hell?

Answer my question or don't try giving me a mention again.


As for 53hail Mary, atleast she ain't been praised whenever we say it but asking her to pray for us. God work in her is being acknowleged

While Our father is praising God the creator of heaven and earth.

shdemidemi:

of course you are in the world, i guess you wanted to say you are not of the world.

You ain't immune to world challenges bro, like Paul told Timothy, he told you this too -
2 Tim 1
8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

I was taught in English language to always consider the 'but' when two simple sentences are combined. Let us re-read Jesus' words:

In me you will have peace BUT in the world you will have tribulation.

It is clear that he is comparing the "In him" to the "in the world" and this can only bring us to one conclusion and the latter part of the verse proves it. He said "BUT be of good cheer, I have already overcome the world" and we can cross-reference it with what Paul said in Romans 8:37: In all these things we ARE (not going to be) more than conquerors.

We already are!

nannymcphee:




Someone wrote the above earlier

Galatian4:1-4
1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law

in the light of ur post & the above quote, can u explain what Paul meant with the scripture I quoted especially the bolder part & the following verse?

Still expecting answers to my previous question

The apostle was addressing a predominantly gentile congregation in this chapter. He had picked them up from their gods and idols and had tutored them to the knowledge of the truth not by the way of the Jewish laws but by the way of the risen Christ. They left their idols only to pick up the old Jewish laws that they had been redeemed from.

Now, to the question- verse 5 tells us what we have been redeemed from-

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

The verse above says those who were under the law were redeemed from the law through Christ. I don't think it says we are now immune from nature but from the bondage(elements of the world) of the law. We seized being subjects, we became sons and heir through adoption.

The full adoption has not taken place, but we know we can't comprehend the glory that will be revealed when the time come.

Romans 8 puts it more clearly, it says

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit(Christians), even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

mbaemeka:

I was taught in English language to always consider the 'but' when two simple sentences are combined. Let us re-read Jesus' words:

In me you will have peace BUT in the world you will have tribulation.

It is clear that he is comparing the "In him" to the "in the world" and this can only bring us to one conclusion and the latter part of the verse proves it. He said "BUT be of good cheer, I have already overcome the world" and we can cross-reference it with what Paul said in Romans 8:37: In all these things we ARE (not going to be) more than conquerors.

We already are!

Romans 8 speaks a lot about the 'HOPE' of what is to come, if we are truly immune from tribulations as Christians today, why would we have to hope?

Pls check the 2 Timothy I quoted earlier.

FrancisTony:



[s]If 'I' for an example was born a muslim, do what pleases God, obey God's commandment, believe in Jesus and uphold to his teaching(atleast, quaran said they should do so), gives arm to the needy and never murdered anybody in the name of jihad(holy war). Do you believe I will make heaven or hell?

Answer my question or don't try giving me a mention again.


As for 53hail Mary, atleast she ain't been praised whenever we say it but asking her to pray for us. God work in her is being acknowleged

While Our father is praising God the creator of heaven and earth. [/s]

I thought only italo had that innate ability of dodging and deviating a simple 'yes or no' question
Btw you sound painly fustrated. I hope your UI pume went well + you shudnt have bothered quoting me if you had nothing meaningful to say....... *wonders how a jambite can't answer simple 'yes or no' question*

alentyno:
I thought only italo had that innate ability of dodging and deviating a simple 'yes or no' question
Btw you sound painly fustrated. I hope your UI pume went well + you shudnt have bothered quoting me if you had nothing meaningful to say....... *wonders how a jambite can't answer simple 'yes or no' question*

1) Yes or No? Am I God?

2) Yes! It went well. I guess my reply hit a nerve.

What is wrong in being a jambite? Un-intelligent mind like you. Atleast, I am still a teen.

Have a nice day.

@ nannymcphee

I will still enjoin you to pay close attention to the discussions the thread has enumerated.

The Christian Church continues to find itself walking a straight path between ensuring it is not corrupted by false doctrines that Satan endeavors to sow in its midst and the need to walk in love. Paul, in Ephesians, calls this holding the truth in love. In one extreme some proclaim truth without an iota of concern for those who hear it: the attitude is "whoever ox is gored is their business"; on the other extreme some sacrifice truth to ensure love and some kind of ecumenism in the church is achieved. Neither is right. We must simply hold the truth in love.

Listening to the testimony of the likes of Candour on this forum gives me hope that the church will still rise in this country. In the late 90s as a young believer, I was continually appalled by the attitude of Christian ministers in Pentecostal churches. The pomposity, the boast, the lording it over the sheep, the penchant for divisiveness, etc. I only realized recently that the root course of it all was this WOF cancer. Read the document Nora pasted here, WOF has been like this from inception. Nothing has changed!

What then is our duty: we must recognize first that Jesus is not the author of any organized church (pls read BabaGnoni excellent position on this in his paper at the just concluded Grace Convention). He might permit them but that is not his ultimate desire. Jesus' supreme desire is to be build a church - an ekklesia, a body of called out folks, a church without boundaries or walls, a body of Christians on the streets. A church that bears no name than Christ's. Those he would use to build this church are you and I, people who recognize the fact that God's people are a mystical body and not something that can be seen.

The best gift any Christian can have is ability to discern Christ body in anyone regardless of denominational divide. This gift also comes with an ability to discern falsehood - knowing those who are Antichrist thought they name the name Jesus on their lips. That's the tragedy of WOF.

I do not agree with everything shdemidemi says here. He is a dispensationalist like many of my friends in this forum. But I consider his views "safe". I have never disputed them on this forum. I think it is part of discerning Christ's body. Another excuse I give for his views is that Christ builds our theological outlook based on our experiences, our understanding of scripture and our calling in his body. If all this will make us more effective Christians, then keep your views.

Regardless of my position so far, I maintain that the biggest emergency in the body of Christ are Word of Faith doctrines. Not Catholicism but WOF. The reason is simple: the other problems Christianity has contended with usually have a denominational bias. So one could easily take care of the problem by avoiding the denomination. But WOF caught across all denominations. WOF has a doctrinal bias, so it can reach all denomination and its almost impossible to avoid. WOF is like the old Gnostic heresy. Gnosticism is another kettle of fish - pls use Google or Wikipedia for more on that.

Again I enjoin you to sit back and watch the tape roll on this thread. BabaGnoni, I think, still has something to present on F12. After that we proceed to F13. Soon we would be done and will have ample opportunity to answer both your questions and queries.

FrancisTony:



1) Yes or No? Am I God?

Exactly what you shud have said and kept your mouth shut

2) Yes! It went well. I guess my reply hit a nerve.

Lmao you sound like my 9 year old kid bro despite being an 18yr old. What sort of nerve will this hit a 19yr old (never wanted to reveal it!) who will be a graduating in 2yrs time?........or is it an engineering student getting walked up that a disrespectful tyke on NL was able to get a score that will at least fetch biochem?

What is wrong in being a jambite?

Never said there was anything wrong with it.

Un-intelligent mind like you.

You should be referring to yourself due to the fact that you forgot that NL makes a provision whereby one could see anothers posts. It didn't even take up to 2mins to scan through your posts in UI's admin thread to know if you were lieing as usual

In summary--- you need to buy books on
Manners and courtsey
Humility
Using your God given potential positively.....

Have a nice nap.

shdemidemi:
Romans 8 speaks a lot about the 'HOPE' of what is to come, if we are truly immune from tribulations as Christians today, why would we have to hope?
Pls check the 2 Timothy I quoted earlier.

Afflictions because of the gospel which is persecution for the gospel in otherwords. We know about that and generally agree on that. Paul spoke about it too in Romans 8:37 as I referred you to. He said "In (amid all these things) tribulations. . .and persecution. . .we are more than conquerors.

BTW the book of Romans 8 wasn't only about the hopes we have. He spoke about the past, present and future. The past being Christ's death; the present being what it achieved for us now I.e the Holy Spirit's presence and his effect vv11, vv26; and our future being the Immortal body we would have at his appearing.

We can't lump everything into the future when Jesus didn't.

DrummaBoy:
1

Thanks

alentyno:
I thought only italo had that innate ability of dodging and deviating a simple 'yes or no' question
Btw you sound painly fustrated. I hope your UI pume went well + you shudnt have bothered quoting me if you had nothing meaningful to say....... *wonders how a jambite can't answer simple 'yes or no' question*

I dont remember evading any 'yes or no' question from you. Can you show me where.?

And can I open a thread where we both ask each other 'yes or no' questions and see who is truthful and who is not..?

alentyno:
You should be referring to yourself due to the fact that you forgot that NL makes a provision whereby one could see anothers posts. It didn't even take up to 2mins to scan through your posts in UI's admin thread to know if you were lieing as usual

What do you mean by the bolded?

FrancisTony:


What do you mean by the bolded?

Is simple english that hard?

alentyno:
Is simple english that hard?

Yes. When it's not spoken well.

Never knew this boy is 19year old.

Small boy forming boss.

italo:

I dont remember evading any 'yes or no' question from you. Can you show me where.?

And can I open a thread where we both ask each other 'yes or no' questions and see who is truthful and who is not..?

You can start from the latest one you just evaded

alentyno:





If for example I was born into an RCCG family and I grow up to know Jesus christ, believe in him, live according to his standards, abhor pride of life and lust of the flesh, be steadfast and prayerful all my life, pay my tithe, give alms to the poor, strive with all my might to live a holy (and thus achieve it in the process) and last but not the least win souls for Him through evangelization. Remember I did all these without believing in the rosary, pulgatory nor praying to saints and all that due to my christain background. If I die today(in a holy state) where will I go? Heaven or hell?

As for the thread you are 100% free to open it. Am in

FrancisTony:


Yes. When it's not spoken well.

You can point out the error(s)

Never knew this boy is 19year old.

Small boy forming boss.

Yes. But am not a small boy
That's one of the reasons I never wanted to reveal my age! no thanks to how nigerians refuse to accept the fact that maturity is of the mind. It helps me to rub mind with top guys. Damn! you forced me to let it out.
If I loose my followers am gonna sue you for this

alentyno:
You can point out the error(s)


Yes. But am not a small boy
That's one of the reasons I never wanted to reveal my age! no thanks to how nigerians refuse to accept the fact that maturity is of the mind. It helps me to rub mind with top guys. Damn! you forced me to let it out

You were forming boss on a thread about TOP PHARMACY SCHOOL IN NIGERIA.


Btw, what's your former moniker before Nairaland crashed?

mbaemeka:

Afflictions because of the gospel which is persecution for the gospel in otherwords. We know about that and generally agree on that. Paul spoke about it too in Romans 8:37 as I referred you to. He said "In (amid all these things) tribulations. . .and persecution. . .we are more than conquerors.

We are saying the same thing here, I think. Though we go through afflictions (a proof that we won't have it all smooth even as Christians), we are sure(because we trust and believe the word) that we are more than conquerors.

Now, it all boils down to how much we can see our present condition in the light of the hope we have in God. I believe 'amid all these things' can come in any form- impoverished, bedridden, incarcerated, rejected, poor.

Our afflictions and sufferings are relational, the apostles suffered great afflictions at their time, I might not suffer that same affliction today; mine might come in the form of been labelled, maligned, isolated ......whichever way it comes I put my mind at rest with the hope that a glory will be revealed at the advent of Christ.

Peter said-
12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

Paul told the Corinth church in 2 Corinthians 1:7

6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.

7 And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation.

This shows the suffering was not just designed for Paul or Peter or Timothy but for every soldier in Christ.

mbaemeka:
BTW the book of Romans 8 wasn't only about the hopes we have. He spoke about the past, present and future. The past being Christ's death; the present being what it achieved for us now I.e the Holy Spirit's presence and his effect vv11, vv26; and our future being the Immortal body we would have at his appearing.

We can't lump everything into the future when Jesus didn't.

I don't think the chapter mentions anything about exempting Christians from sufferings today.

FrancisTony:


You were forming boss on a thread about TOP PHARMACY SCHOOL IN NIGERIA.


Btw, what's your former moniker before Nairaland crashed?

For sure you look set to taking me to be another folk.
Former moniker?-----sammiedicy

alentyno:
For sure you look set to taking me to be another folk.
Former moniker?-----sammiedicy

Okay. Never came across the moniker before.

mbaemeka:

Afflictions because of the gospel which is persecution for the gospel in otherwords. We know about that and generally agree on that. Paul spoke about it too in Romans 8:37 as I referred you to. He said "In (amid all these things) tribulations. . .and persecution. . .we are more than conquerors.

BTW the book of Romans 8 wasn't only about the hopes we have. He spoke about the past, present and future. The past being Christ's death; the present being what it achieved for us now I.e the Holy Spirit's presence and his effect vv11, vv26; and our future being the Immortal body we would have at his appearing.

We can't lump everything into the future when Jesus didn't.

shdemidemi:

Romans 8 speaks a lot about the 'HOPE' of what is to come, if we are truly immune from tribulations as Christians today, why would we have to hope?

Pls check the 2 Timothy I quoted earlier.

Hope in Romans 8 refers to a future prospect; the anticipation of something NOT YET present. I believe that is the point Shidemidemi is presenting here. When that hope is fulfilled - when that future event becomes a reality - it will no longer be a hope.
If we are hoping - having absolute confidence - for a better future it means the present is not as good as that future. In other words what we can have NOW cannot be like what we will have in the future. For now there is still the 'present sufferings'(v.18), 'bondage of corruption'(v.21), 'eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body'(v.23)
For now there will still be 'tribulation ', 'distress', 'persecution', 'famine', 'unclothedness', 'peril', or 'sword'(v.35). These will still be a present reality. But nothing can separate us from the love of Christ in all these because the believer who rightly applies the Word of God can face them with 'hope' and other divine provisions.

trustman:
Hope in Romans 8 refers to a future prospect; the anticipation of something NOT YET present. I believe that is the point Shidemidemi is presenting here. When that hope is fulfilled - when that future event becomes a reality - it will no longer be a hope.
If we are hoping - having absolute confidence - for a better future it means the present is not as good as that future. In other words what we can have NOW cannot be like what we will have in the future. For now there is still the 'present sufferings'(v.18), 'bondage of corruption'(v.21), 'eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body'(v.23)
For now there will still be 'tribulation ', 'distress', 'persecution', 'famine', 'unclothedness', 'peril', or 'sword'(v.35). These will still be a present reality. But nothing can separate us from the love of Christ in all these because the believer who rightly applies the Word of God can face them with 'hope' and other divine provisions.

I agree with the notion of a future: one to look forward to. And I agree that Paul addressed it there too. I only said that wasn't all he alluded to there. For example, the very verse 11 isn't futuristic and we know this because he said the Holy Spirit will vitalize our MORTAL bodies.

I believe the underlying point is that no matter what we enjoy from the fortaste of the glory now it will never be compared to the one that will be revealed. That's why I have been imploring us all not to focus so much on the future one thereby missing out on the present. It is with this Eido (awareness) that the apostles still went on to heal as many sick people as they encountered instead of just reminding them to suffer the disease now so they would enjoy the glory in heaven.

shdemidemi:

We are saying the same thing here, I think. Though we go through afflictions (a proof that we won't have it all smooth even as Christians), we are sure(because we trust and believe the word) that we are more than conquerors.

Now, it all boils down to how much we can see our present condition in the light of the hope we have in God. I believe 'amid all these things' can come in any form- impoverished, bedridden, incarcerated, rejected, poor.

Our afflictions and sufferings are relational, the apostles suffered great afflictions at their time, I might not suffer that same affliction today; mine might come in the form of been labelled, maligned, isolated ......whichever way it comes I put my mind at rest with the hope that a glory will be revealed at the advent of Christ.

Peter said-
12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

Paul told the Corinth church in 2 Corinthians 1:7

6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.

7 And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation.

This shows the suffering was not just designed for Paul or Peter or Timothy but for every soldier in Christ.




I don't think the chapter mentions anything about exempting Christians from sufferings today.

The keywords are 'partakers of the sufferings of christ' or 'afflictions for the GOSPEL'. The afflictions/persecutions/tribulations/impoverishment/incarceration/labelling etc. Should be for the GOSPEL'S sake and nothing else.

If we are partaking of christs sufferings then we ought to suffer what Christ suffered and nothing more and it has to be for the reason he suffered- which is because of his convictions.

Did Christ suffer sickness? Did Christ suffer 'poverty' by virtue of his birth or because of the gospel? Was Christ subject to the principles of the world?

Then we cannot teach people to accept such things except they are in tandem with the gospel or the preaching of it. Epaphroditus didn't take care of himself well and took ill BECAUSE of the work of the ministry. Paul told us that much and that's a worthy example.

mbaemeka:

The keywords are 'partakers of the sufferings of christ' or 'afflictions for the GOSPEL'. The afflictions/persecutions/tribulations/impoverishment/incarceration/labelling etc. Should be for the GOSPEL'S sake and nothing else.].
If we are partaking of christs sufferings then we ought to suffer what Christ suffered and nothing more and it has to be for the reason he suffered- which is because of his convictions.

Did Christ suffer sickness? Did Christ suffer 'poverty' by virtue of his birth or because of the gospel? Was Christ subject to the principles of the world?

Then we cannot teach people to accept such things except they are in tandem with the gospel or the preaching of it. Epaphroditus didn't take care of himself well and took ill BECAUSE of the work of the ministry. Paul told us that much and that's a worthy example.

I believe we are a product of the information resident in us, we do things inline with what we know. I am a Christian, thus, I am influenced and transformed by the gospel. I don't have to be screaming Jesus everywhere to get afflicted for the sake of the gospel. Just by my 'Christian' way of doing things, I get my share of afflictions, which can come in different forms and degrees.

I think our sufferings are relative, everyone has His own cross to carry. Paul did not suffer the exact sufferings Jesus suffered, Timothy did not go through exact same things and I don't think you and I will go through exact same sufferings but we must carry our own cross.

Jesus was never sick but Paul(it must have been a problem with his eyes) and Timothy went through some form of sickness.. Different lot for different folks.

Gal. 4
Surely you remember that I was sick when I first brought you the Good News. 14 But even though my condition tempted you to reject me, you did not despise me or turn me away. No, you took me in and cared for me as though I were an angel from God or even Christ Jesus himself. 15 Where is that joyful and grateful spirit you felt then? I am sure you would have taken out your own eyes and given them to me if it had been possible. 16 Have I now become your enemy because I am telling you the truth?