My papa be this, my mama be that, wetin u be...grow up and hutsle

logica:
Forgotten? Or you never knew? You this monkey of no lineage. You have no history; nothing. YOU ARE NOTHING.

tonychristopher:
...grow up and hutsle

Hahaha...Hustle? As if a monkey like you knows the meaning of the word. You think roaming about the streets of Lagos is "hustling"? You be pr0stitute?

tonychristopher:
My papa be this, my mama be that, wetin u be...

Ohhh OK. You think I am merely proud of my history; but have no personal achievements? Who do you think is wiping the floor with you and your ancestors right now? You have no clue.

SirShymexx:


The Owiwi war was between Remo and certain Ijebu towns, and the Egbas - fought on Egbado land - not necessarily an all out Ijebu war.

Based on warfare, I believe a defeat of the Ijebu would be the sacking of Ijebu Kingdom - and no one ever achieved that.

First, a defeat doesn't necessarily have to result in the sacking of a town. Henry V defeated the French at Agincourt; was France burned downed? A defeat can be as simple as a retreat from fighting, in which the winners are satisfied that the other side ran and so check their aggression or as dastardly as the place being sacked.

Second, If a part of kingdom or country suffers defeat in war, then the Kingdom or country as suffered that defeat. There is no such thing as it was Remo that lost. Remo is Ijebu and it was Ijebu that lost. Both Johnson and Biobaku referred to one side of the conflict as Ijebu.

SirShymexx:

Big Kats, what's an Ilari?
Anyway, which of the Awujales cos I know Ijebu Kingdom predated both Oyo and Bini. Not saying Ijebu was ever militarily powerful enough to challenge Oyo - but it seems the relationship was both symbiotic and cordial, and not necessarily one of a vassal state. Think Spartans and other Greeks. Or maybe, the relationship between Scotland and England thrones from the time of James VI.
Regardless, I'm open to learning new scholarship and gaining knowledge. However, from what is documented - no stranger was ever allowed through the Ijebu Kingdom, not even Oyo - and even Ibadan at the height of its military. Only the Brits were able to break that, after the defeat of the Ijebus at Imagbon, during the Anglo/Ijebu war.
I remember PhysicsQED made the same claims about Bini as well by citing some oral boastfulness of some Bini palace attendant, to explorers - in which they questioned as well due to lack of any evidence whatsoever. However, when I asked to provide documented evidence, with pronounced cultural influences Bini had on the Ijebus - like the other Bini vassals like: Eko, Owo, the groups in Ondo, and all the Niger Delta groups - he couldn't produce anything. But there are more pronounced Ijebu cultural influences on the Binis, than the other way around.
P.S: not saying Ijebu Kingdom was militarily powerful - it is just a mystery that none of the two big empires it was surrounded by, were able to make it a proper vassal like they did to other places.

An Ilari is a representative of the Alaafin away from the palace or a servant while at the Palace. Oyo used Ilaris to deliver messages to vassal states and to collect tributes. Lishabi gained independence for the Egba by killing the Ilari in his town and this spread to other Egba towns. Over 600 Ilaris were killed in that uprising.

Awujale may predate Oyo and Bini but that doesn't mean that there was an Awujale there. When Oduduwa's sons moved from Ife to other towns, don't you believe there were other Yoruba people in those places? They simply started ruling dynasties in those places. When the Saxons and Franks started migrating from Germany to England and France, they met local people in those countries and they created ruling dynasties which lasted for over 600 years until the Vikings took over.

A state doesn't have to defeated at war before it recognises the power of a tributary. Not all Yoruba towns were defeated by Oyo. What is the height of Ijebu power? Ijebu came to relevance in the 19th century after the fall of Oyo. The same with Egba. Ife was allied to Oyo and then to Ibadan before it switched sides to the confederates during the Kiriji war. Should Ife now say that it was as strong as Oyo or Ibadan?

9jacrip:


Arghhh, we have an hybrid here LOL.

Sorry about your G.granny's house bruh.

These two sides have fused into each other so much that the second in rankings to Obalesun in my compound is from Modakeke, yet they still tote guns and blast without reservations at the slightest provocation.

Their fight is spiritual... we are just seeing the manifestation of their spiritual fight on earth.

Katsumoto:
Just to add a voice to the debate about First Class Kings.

There is a difference between a King being one of the Seven Obalades and a King elevated by political office holders. For the former, you were one of Alaafin of Oyo, Olowu of Owu, Orangun of Ila-orangun, the Owaoboku of Ijeshaland, the Alaketu of Ketu, the Onipopo of Popo, and the Onisabe of Sabe. In the latter, your kingdom was/is elevated by a governor of a state.

For me, the relevant Yoruba kings are the seven obalades as well as the kings who fought and gained their independence from Oyo & Ibadan - Alake, Awujale, Ooni. If you were in the audience when Kiriji was being fought, then you can't be too relevant. Of course Eko did not partake but Eko must be relevant.


For the umpteenth time, Alaafin was never the paramount ruler in Yorubaland. Alaafin was the strongest king at some point but that is not enough to make it the paramount office.

Alaafin was never the paramount ruler in 'Yorubaland' during the time of the Oyo empire?

Alaafin was the strongest at some point? Please tell me the strongest leaders at other points, strong enough to build empires. I really want to learn.

nduchucks:



Ehn, You are a Princess !!!

Ok, e ma binu ma. There will be no more criticism of the Oba of Lagos by me, but I reserve the right to criticize any other corrupt Oba, Emir, or Eze

Uhm, no. I just saw it in a dream sha. It's meant to be. I be commoner like you.

I love this thread.

saxywale:

Their fight is spiritual... we are just seeing the manifestation of their spiritual fight on earth.

Lol!

I'm sure you didn't know this but Ikire and Apomu are at war right now. Last night and today, I was at Ikire and I saw youths brandishing new ass machetes among other 'tools'.

It is so bad that soldiers were deployed and right now Sango area/Peter Power axis is hot with a showdown.

mayorall how far, what is happening in your town?

MrPresident1:


Alaafin was never the paramount ruler in 'Yorubaland' during the time of the Oyo empire?

Alaafin was the strongest at some point? Please tell me the strongest leaders at other points, strong enough to build empires. I really want to learn.

I'm sure katsumoto will give a befitting response but let me share a bit of knowledge.

Being a king is either via direct ownership of land pre-subject-settlement or by conquest.

Before Alaafin, a number of towns were in existence and also some towns were not conquered by Alaafin/Oyo army.

Note: some towns hold both or either categories such as Ile-Ife (different from Ife), Ijesa land (Ekiti is Ijesa land as well), Ijebu, Ilorin, Offa, Ekoetc.

Alaafin and or his empire were/was hot but did not lord their military might over the totality of Yoruba towns.

9jacrip:


Owu, after their town got sacked scattered all over. I co-researched Owu history with an acquaintance of mine in school and still have the copy at home.

Owu are in Lagos, Ogun, Abeokuta, Osun etc but the Olowu in posession of the Oduduwa given crown is in Owu Ipole in Osun state close to Ikire which makes him the paramount head of the Olowus of Owus.

The Olowu of Owu Ipole of yesterday gave us full details on Owu history and about two months after my acquaintance and I visted him for oral interview, he had an accident and passed on to meet his fathers - I still have records, kept in my archives .

The Olowu in Abeokuta does not have asunkungbade's crown.

Oh I see
I didn't know Owu Ipole hosts the crown..I assumed the crown was moved to Abeokuta years after the destruction of Owu Ipole

I'll still have to dedicate time on Owu migration
some books claim the original Owu home is along the Niger river..probably the reason we have Owu communities in Kwara state

Katsumoto:


Hold on

Awujale was an Ilari sent from Oyo to settle a dispute. Ijebu was definitely a vassal of Oyo.

Ilari?? Lol how can an Oba be an Ilari
Ilaris are palace servants sent out to tributary states

Katsumoto:
Just to add a voice to the debate about First Class Kings.

There is a difference between a King being one of the Seven Obalades and a King elevated by political office holders. For the former, you were one of Alaafin of Oyo, Olowu of Owu, Orangun of Ila-orangun, the Owaoboku of Ijeshaland, the Alaketu of Ketu, the Onipopo of Popo, and the Onisabe of Sabe. In the latter, your kingdom was/is elevated by a governor of a state.

For me, the relevant Yoruba kings are the seven obalades as well as the kings who fought and gained their independence from Oyo & Ibadan - Alake, Awujale, Ooni. If you were in the audience when Kiriji was being fought, then you can't be too relevant. Of course Eko did not partake but Eko must be relevant.


For the umpteenth time, Alaafin was never the paramount ruler in Yorubaland. Alaafin was the strongest king at some point but that is not enough to make it the paramount office.

Surely you got this from Samuel Johnson's book
There are more than 7 Obalades, where is Ajero who is said to have initiated the idea of leaving Ife, what of Ewi, Elekole, Ajapada(Deji), Olowo

SirShymexx sit your aśś down, listen and learn. It so turned out that your beloved Ijebu dint only go to war, they were defeated by the Egbas. Ijebu is not untouchable afterall. So bow down Bìťćhèś

DollyParton1:
SirShymexx sit your aśś down, listen and learn. It so turned out that your beloved Ijebu dint only go to war, they were defeated by the Egbas. Ijebu is not untouchable afterall. So bow down Bìťćhèś

Lol. I saw Kats rebuttal earlier today - I just didn't want to post an half-baked retort till I get home.

I'm home now, so expect a reply in a bit.

omonnakoda:
Which Fulani are you talking about You keep banging on about Fulani.Fulani from where exactly. There was no Fulani incursion. There was an Ilorin incursion(Marching south from Ilorin) and they were not Fulani they were mostly Oyo renegades with mercenary soldiers who were Hausa,Nupe,Fulanis etc that had lived in Oyo territory for ever.This was during the slave trade and Oyo was very cosmopolitan before the schism many were freed slaves and what they had in common was Islam they were largely Oyos. To the North of Ilorin are Gwari and Nupe Kingdoms so I must ask again where these "Fulanis" are coming from? This is a commonly held misconception but even to this day how many Fulanis are in Nigeria? Ilorin was not about Fulani suzerainty neither is it the case even in Hausalan where you have so called Fulani Emirs. I would say how is that different from Oduduwa and his sons were they Yoruba? Yes they established a dynasty but did they change the DNA? Have Fulani changed the DNA in Kano? If you are looking for Fulani ruling Fulani look at the Lamido Adamawa and guess what they now speak Hausa

You are spot on my brother.

hercules07:


The Alaafin was the paramount ruler of Yoruba land, but, you might want to remove the Ijebus from that list, they were not really part of Yorubaland as such, they were more concerned about Lagos and the Seas than the hinterland, the hinterland Yorubas were also more concerned about the North than the Seas, the Ijebus really guarded the sea jealously.

The truth.Ijebu o ki nje ojo.

SirShymexx:


Lol.

We are Yorubas but we just had our own separate Kingdom and thrived in isolation. We were never under Oyo but Oyo empire did protect us and a lot of Ijebus also lived in Oyo.

My bro,you are right.Am from waterside ijebu also.When last have u been home?

macof:


Oh I see
I didn't know Owu Ipole hosts the crown..I assumed the crown was moved to Abeokuta years after the destruction of Owu Ipole

I'll still have to dedicate time on Owu migration
some books claim the original Owu home is along the Niger river..probably the reason we have Owu communities in Kwara state

Ah please do dedicate time to the books/research and see about traveling to Owu towns within your reach for possible interviews.

Owu Ipole is still in existence, it was founded when the original Owu was destroyed.

nisai:
My bro,you are right.Am from waterside ijebu also.When last have u been home?

I'm waterside Ijebu as well...went there the last time I was in naija. The place has a lot of potentials and hopefully they won't turn it into a massive slum like the rest of Lagos.

Katsumoto:

First, a defeat doesn't necessarily have to result in the sacking of a town. Henry V defeated the French at Agincourt; was France burned downed? A defeat can be as simple as a retreat from fighting, in which the winners are satisfied that the other side ran and so check their aggression or as dastardly as the place being sacked.

Second, If a part of kingdom or country suffers defeat in war, then the Kingdom or country as suffered that defeat. There is no such thing as it was Remo that lost. Remo is Ijebu and it was Ijebu that lost. Both Johnson and Biobaku referred to one side of the conflict as Ijebu.

In warfare, I don't you can necessarily claim "defeat" without either gaining territories and/or sacking/conquering a Kingdom/country. The Allied Forces never claimed victory, till they marched to Berlin. No one claimed victory for the Korean war despite the fact that the North Koreans were pushed out of South Korea's territory. Heck, the Romans never claimed victory over Scotland - despite getting to parts of Southern Scotland cos it never changed anything.

However, conversely, Henry V's victory over the French happened on French soil - and it did cripple France. Whereas the Owiwi war was fought on Egbado soil - and the result never had any effects whatsoever on the Ijebus. So, I wouldn't even call it decisive victory cos they just repelled them, and it ended there. The Ijebu Vs. Egba war in Ibadan is what a decisive victory should look like cos all the Egba towns were sacked - and they were forced to move to a different place. Not taking anything from the Egbas - they were great warriors.

Also, those who referred to them as Ijebu are right in the context of the two warring sides. However, when we look at the bigger - we can't really call it a defeat of the Ijebu Kingdom cos the Kingdom was intact after the wars.

An Ilari is a representative of the Alaafin away from the palace or a servant while at the Palace. Oyo used Ilaris to deliver messages to vassal states and to collect tributes. Lishabi gained independence for the Egba by killing the Ilari in his town and this spread to other Egba towns. Over 600 Ilaris were killed in that uprising.

Erm, I doubt a crowned King would be an Ilari for a next one. Please, can you post the academic links to that claim? Then again, a lot of Yoruba historians are fond of writing fables - to support their own subgroups, rather than presenting facts based on how things actually happened.

Awujale may predate Oyo and Bini but that doesn't mean that there was an Awujale there. When Oduduwa's sons moved from Ife to other towns, don't you believe there were other Yoruba people in those places? They simply started ruling dynasties in those places. When the Saxons and Franks started migrating from Germany to England and France, they met local people in those countries and they created ruling dynasties which lasted for over 600 years until the Vikings took over.

Ijebu Kingdom has always had an Awujale since its inception. Even the earliest European explorer writings did cite the ruler of the Kingdom as Agusale (Awujale) way back from like the 12th/13th century.

When the Saxons moved to England - they met a Roman ruling structure there, and simply just adopted that after the Romans left. Everything the Romans left behind was kept intact.

A state doesn't have to defeated at war before it recognises the power of a tributary. Not all Yoruba towns were defeated by Oyo. What is the height of Ijebu power? Ijebu came to relevance in the 19th century after the fall of Oyo. The same with Egba. Ife was allied to Oyo and then to Ibadan before it switched sides to the confederates during the Kiriji war. Should Ife now say that it was as strong as Oyo or Ibadan?

Ijebus didn't come to relevance in the 19th century. Perhaps, you're alluding to "relevance" as part of a larger Yoruba group. However, Ijebus thrived from way back in the 12/13th century - trading clothes and other items on the coast - with a Kingdom. According to European explorers, the only period they weren't visible along the Eko coast was in around the 16th century at the height of Bini Empire - when it extended to Eko. However, as Bini's reach started to dwindle - they started seeing the Ijebu traders again. Heck, Ijebus traders went as far as proper Niger Delta - and the tortoise cloth the Nembe Ijaw folks wear as their traditional cloth, is part of the clothes the Ijebus used to sell back then.

I'm not saying the Ijebu Kingdom was a powerful Kingdom - just alluding to the fact that it has always existed in isolation. I can't really say much about its military might cos nothing was documented about its military exploits. However, it didn't control the coast. How the Kingdom achieved that for centuries, despite having bigger and more powerful empires around it, is still a mystery to me. I will like to read more on that.

Just to add a voice to the debate about First Class Kings.

There is a difference between a King being one of the Seven Obalades and a King elevated by political office holders. For the former, you were one of Alaafin of Oyo, Olowu of Owu, Orangun of Ila-orangun, the Owaoboku of Ijeshaland, the Alaketu of Ketu, the Onipopo of Popo, and the Onisabe of Sabe. In the latter, your kingdom was/is elevated by a governor of a state.

macof:


Surely you got this from Samuel Johnson's book
There are more than 7 Obalades, where is Ajero who is said to have initiated the idea of leaving Ife, what of Ewi, Elekole, Ajapada(Deji), Olowo

Obalade, meaning the thrones occupied by the direct heirs of Oduduwa, right?

I understand most Yoruba historians recognise 8 Obalades. Were there more than 8 of Oduduwa's sons who were given their own kingdoms? What of Alake of Egbaland? I think that throne would complete the list above and make it 8.

Also, is Owa of Ilesa the same as Owa Obokun of Ijesha?

Are Ajero, Ewi, Elekole, Ajapada recognised as being Oduduwa's children or are there other criterions beside being a son of Oduduwa being used to classify an Obaship as an Obalade?

This is very interesting to me. The Onipopo and Onisabe thrones even more so because most times when we discuss Yoruba history, we sometimes overlook them, since they're in Republic of Benin.

macof:


Ilari?? Lol how can an Oba be an Ilari
Ilaris are palace servants sent out to tributary states

The first Awujale was an Ilari sent to settle a quarrel between Owu Ipole and Iseyin odo, he was sent from Oyo. The Title of Awujale is still an Ilari title till today in Oyo. Up till when this Ilari became king, the Ijebu were just disparate tribes, this Ilari was gum that fused them together.

9jacrip:


I'm sure katsumoto will give a befitting response but let me share a bit of knowledge.

Being a king is either via direct ownership of land pre-subject-settlement or by conquest.

Before Alaafin, a number of towns were in existence and also some towns were not conquered by Alaafin/Oyo army.

Note: some towns hold both or either categories such as Ile-Ife (different from Ife), Ijesa land (Ekiti is Ijesa land as well), Ijebu, Ilorin, Offa, Ekoetc.

Alaafin and or his empire were/was hot but did not lord their military might over the totality of Yoruba towns.

Funny. The Alaafin had sovereignty over the whole of 'Yorubaland'. The Alaafin of Oyo's empire stretched from New bussa in Niger state to parts of today's Ghana.

All 'Yoruba' towns were subject to the Alaafin. This is why you call yourself Yoruba; if you are 'Yoruba' you are subject to the Alaafin.

MrPresident1:


The first Awujale was an Ilari sent to settle a quarrel between Owu Ipole and Iseyin odo, he was sent from Oyo. The Title of Awujale is still an Ilari title till today in Oyo. Up till when this Ilari became king, the Ijebu were just disparate tribes, this Ilari was gum that fused them together.

A crown that predates the Oyo crown is an Ilari, no? GTFOH!

When did the proper Oyo empire start?

comment deleted.

9jacrip:


I'm sure katsumoto will give a befitting response but let me share a bit of knowledge.

Being a king is either via direct ownership of land pre-subject-settlement or by conquest.

Before Alaafin, a number of towns were in existence and also some towns were not conquered by Alaafin/Oyo army.

Note: some towns hold both or either categories such as Ile-Ife (different from Ife), Ijesa land (Ekiti is Ijesa land as well), Ijebu, Ilorin, Offa, Ekoetc.

Alaafin and or his empire were/was hot but did not lord their military might over the totality of Yoruba towns.

Ekiti is not Ijesha land. That we collaborated at some point during the Ekiti Parapo war does not make Ekiti part of Ijesha land.

MrPresident1:


There was no crown before the Ilari was sent from Oyo. This is verifiable history. Awujale is the corrupted term 'Agbejaile' meaning one who settles land disputes. The Ijebu were just disparate tribes until the Ilari from Oyo fused them together. There is no need to be sentimental about this.

Bwahahahaha @ Agbejaile

Have you read Robin Law's book about Kingdom of Ijebu from 1500 to 1700 - not some junk Oyo historian revisionism?

Ijebu Kingdom existed before Oyo, with a separate Kingdom. Stop posting junk.

At least early European explorers had nothing to gain from falsifying facts, like a lot of you do - writing pseudo-history everywhere.

SirShymexx:


Bwahahahaha @ Agbejaile

Have you read Robin Law's book about Kingdom of Ijebu from 1500 to 1700 - not some junk Oyo historian revisionism?

Ijebu Kingdom existed before Oyo, with a separate Kingdom. Stop posting junk.

At least early European explorers had nothing to gain from falsifying facts, like a lot of you do - writing pseudo-history everywhere.

I tell you the Ijebu were disparate tribes until the Ilari fused them together.

Although still described as a 'Viceroyalty of Benin' by one observer of the early nineteenth century: Robertson, Notes on Africa, 30I. In fact, Ijebu appears to have been incorporated into the sphere of influence of Oyo from the seventeenth century onwards: cf. Robin Law, The Oyo Empire, c.16oo - c.1836 (Oxford, I977), I35-7.

Stop talking nonsense.

MrPresident1:


Funny. The Alaafin had sovereignty over the whole of 'Yorubaland'. The Alaafin of Oyo's empire stretched from New bussa in Niger state to parts of today's Ghana.

All 'Yoruba' towns were subject to the Alaafin. This is why you call yourself Yoruba; if you are 'Yoruba' you are subject to the Alaafin.

Sovereignty over Oyo Ile and some other subjugated towns, not all.

I/we call myself/ourselves Yoruba because of the unification many factors that link us has created.

MrPresident1:


I tell you the Ijebu were disparate tribes until the Ilari fused them together.

Although still described as a 'Viceroyalty of Benin' by one observer of the early nineteenth century: Robertson, Notes on Africa, 30I. In fact, Ijebu appears to have been incorporated into the sphere of influence of Oyo from the seventeenth century onwards: cf. Robin Law, The Oyo Empire, c.16oo - c.1836 (Oxford, I977), I35-7.

Stop talking nonsense.

Lol. I thought you said Awujale was "Agbejaile", no?

Now, you're claiming it was incorporated into Oyo's sphere of influence from the 17th century onwards - which means, it actually existed way before the 17th century, no? Can you see that the more you talk, the more confused you get - and it basically shows how vacuous you're.

Anyway, I think TerraCotta did a splendid job on Ijebu history on here: https://www.nairaland.com/1253380/maps-kingdoms-peoples-states-cities

Educate yourself, the same way Physics was schooled.

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