Pastors And Body Guards. - Religion (8) - Nairaland
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| Re: Pastors And Body Guards. by GreyBeard: 7:31pm On Apr 24, 2011 |
Azibalua:@ Azibalua. So according to you, It's no ones business if any body decides to have guards. even your MOG? Now who is being naive?? Besides it is a fact that the time of Jesus was one of political upheaval and it was very common for the common man (like fishermen etc) to carry swords. |
| Re: Pastors And Body Guards. by Azibalua(f): 7:40pm On Apr 24, 2011 |
Grey Beard:Why would I want to make it my buisness if my MOG goes around with a guard,is it that immediately he became my MOG he started answering to me! I don't think god asked me to become my MOG boss Remember Romans 14:4 4 They are God's servants, not yours. They are responsible to him, not to you. Let him tell them whether they are right or wrong. And God is able to make them do as they should. Also if in Jesus time there was political upheaval,what about now with all the uprising in the world,the killings and maiming going on. |
| Re: Pastors And Body Guards. by Joagbaje(m): 9:47pm On Apr 24, 2011 |
Azibalua: Wonderful scripture. I hope the Anti MOGs will hear the voice of the spirit in that scripture. Thanks Azi baby. |
| Re: Pastors And Body Guards. by newmi(m): 10:23pm On Apr 24, 2011 |
nuclearboy:nobody said that are you reading with oil in your eyes go and wash them in water |
| Re: Pastors And Body Guards. by newmi(m): 10:31pm On Apr 24, 2011 |
Azibalua:So what is your point is there any difference in our own day |
| Re: Pastors And Body Guards. by Azibalua(f): 10:48pm On Apr 24, 2011 |
Use your brain cells dude Scottsmen skirts are not termed as weapons of warfare,I don't think you can inflict injury with it,you would rather do that with a sword. |
| Re: Pastors And Body Guards. by GreyBeard: 11:45pm On Apr 24, 2011 |
Azibalua: |
| Re: Pastors And Body Guards. by GreyBeard: 11:52pm On Apr 24, 2011 |
newmi:Do u know any fishermen who carry weapons around with them? What is YOUR point?  Please, I was responding to a particular question on that sub-topic. There is no point trying to side-track the issue. |
| Re: Pastors And Body Guards. by Azibalua(f): 6:47am On Apr 25, 2011 |
@ grey Beard You are getting everything wrong, It's a choice to anyone to have guards, It's also a choice if one does not want to It's not a compulsion neither is it a law It's rather a choice Be wise, it's not your business and moreso this does not determine the level of the anointing on ones life |
| Re: Pastors And Body Guards. by GreyBeard: 9:25am On Apr 25, 2011 |
^^ Yes, you are absolutely right! It is a choice for mogs to enjoy private jets obtained from monies from their congregations some of whom cannot afford 3 square meals in a day. It is a choice for them to emotionally coerce their congregations into regularly buying their books and dvds and bring in yet more money for them. It is a choice for them to build universities with money obtained from their congregations most of whom cannot afford to send their children there. It is a choice to build businesses - also from congregation money and plough the profits back into the church without the original sponsors (the congregations) seeing a kobo from that profit. It is also a choice to charge people for "gate entry" into special services. It is a choice for them to charge different amounts of money for different kinds of prayers. It is a choice to preach to the poor, desperate and vulnerable that in order to come out of their condition, the only choice that they have in God's eyes is to part with money. It is a choice to preach that you can successfully serve God and Mommon. And of course it is a choice to use bodyguards. However, this thread isn't about choices. It is about opinions. Opinons on whether those choices are RIGHT or WRONG. It is about justifying these opinions and that is why I asked you earlier if you had anything extra to add to the thread since the "diciples where Jesus' bodyguard" argument has been blown out of the water. |
| Re: Pastors And Body Guards. by sewa36447(m): 12:13pm On Apr 25, 2011 |
Few are called while others join because of hardship and money. The few that are called don't go with body guard or even put hand in politics while others go with guard, preach prosperity messages always and even play politics. |
| Re: Pastors And Body Guards. by donnie(m): 3:02pm On Apr 25, 2011 |
With the type of hatred and wickedness spewing out of NL, and infact the world at large against the gospel, every spirit filled believer aught to Watch  (shine your eyes) and pray.  |
| Re: Pastors And Body Guards. by Azibalua(f): 4:22pm On Apr 25, 2011 |
Grey Beard: Your opinions are always biased, |
| Re: Pastors And Body Guards. by ogajim(m): 4:56pm On Apr 25, 2011 |
donnie: You are so right "Donnie" and the "pray(ing)" ought to be against scammers parading as "MOGs" fleecing the flock. |
| Re: Pastors And Body Guards. by Joagbaje(m): 7:52pm On Apr 25, 2011 |
However, this thread isn't about choices. It is about opinions. Opinons on whether those choices are RIGHT or WRONG. It is about justifying these opinions and that is why I asked you earlier if you had anything extra to add to the thread since the "diciples where Jesus' bodyguard" argument has been blown out of the water. Blown out of the water? By who ? By your Enigmatic culture? The disciples acted as security for Jesus when need arose . They acted as ushers when need arose. They acted as bouncers when need arose. They alsmost bounced children away from Jesus. It's a loyalty thing . |
| Re: Pastors And Body Guards. by ogajim(m): 8:02pm On Apr 25, 2011 |
Joagbaje: Pastor JoAgbaje, are you adding your own interpretation to Jesus Christ's promise to make the Disciples fishers of men when he pulled them from their "day jobs" as fishermen? To say that our Lord Jesus Christ needed "protection" from the people he came to reconcile with God is unimaginable to put it mildly. He was a man on a MISSION which he FULFILLED as evidenced by "IT IS FINISHED", you sir need to REPENT before it's too late. Shalom. |
| Re: Pastors And Body Guards. by Joagbaje(m): 8:07pm On Apr 25, 2011 |
What were they doing with swords? |
| Re: Pastors And Body Guards. by Joagbaje(m): 8:12pm On Apr 25, 2011 |
They were his ushers They were his protocol officers and security They were his defenders They were his bouncers! Matthew 19:13-14 13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them. . Mark 9:38-39 38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. . Luke 9:54-55 54 And when His disciples James and John observed this, they said, Lord, do You wish us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, even as Elijah did? [II Kings 1:9-16.] 55 , John 12:20-22 20 And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast: 21 The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus. 22 Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus. |
| Re: Pastors And Body Guards. by ogajim(m): 8:18pm On Apr 25, 2011 |
Pastor JoAgbaje: Do you know it is CUSTOMARY for men in Yemen to carry native daggers? this is something I've learnt in the last few weeks of the political riots there. Men in Africa used to carry their cutlasses when they went anywhere and I am sure some carried Swords if it was their custom. Someone pointed that out earlier in response to you but you are still trying to justify your highly "esteemed" "MOGs" needing body guards who sometimes "protected" them from their parishioners who are prevented from direct contact with their "servant leader". Jesus Christ was PERFECT to the end and we as men strive for that and pray to get near his level, you are entitled to your opinion but please don't blaspheme in the process. |
| Re: Pastors And Body Guards. by Joagbaje(m): 8:21pm On Apr 25, 2011 |
ogajim: I dont see the need for us to create a history that never existed just for the sake of winning argument. Can we have a link to the fact that the disciples carried sword as a custom and not for Jesus sake. |
| Re: Pastors And Body Guards. by free123: 8:48pm On Apr 25, 2011 |
Joagbaje: |
| Re: Pastors And Body Guards. by Joagbaje(m): 8:51pm On Apr 25, 2011 |
I agree . But Why did Jesus ask those of them without swords to go and buy? |
| Re: Pastors And Body Guards. by Azibalua(f): 12:32am On Apr 26, 2011 |
@ free 123 You wrote Jesus called them to be fishers So why did the disciple feel the need to use the sword to cut off the ear of the soldier, Was it not a sense of security and protection . |
| Re: Pastors And Body Guards. by ogajim(m): 1:47am On Apr 26, 2011 |
Both Pastor JoAgbaje and Azibalua fail to understand the context of the statement you claim, The sword as used by Jesus Christ represented the tension that existed as the chief priests and elders sought to trap him whenever the authorities were not around, in all your "studies, are you sure you haven't come across Jesus using physical objects like seeds, lamps, vineyards, coins, lost sheep, etc to drive home his point? The same Jesus who warned Peter to put away his sword because if he wanted to, he could bring Legions of Angelical forces to deal with the Romans but that wouldn't fulfill what was written about him would it? I hope you understand that his being crucified among thieves like a common criminal was also to fulfill a prophesy. Study up guys! Shalom. |
| Re: Pastors And Body Guards. by Joagbaje(m): 6:49am On Apr 26, 2011 |
I agree Jesus was against Peters attack. One thing is carrying the sword another is to really use it. I dont think any man of God will order guards to shoot at people. But security men sometimes may be armed for prevention of evil . That's the case with the disciples . They carried arms and Jesus knew. He even asked those who didn't have sword to buy one! To buy one for what reason? My point is simple . Those who make a sport of criticism of ministers of God should check their bible well. God is not glorified with all these. we criticise suit, cars,now security Why men of God?. Security is common sense. That doesn't mean a man put his faith in them , but they are neccesity . It may not be applicable go every minister. But the more popular a man is, the more security measures to be taken. Not necessarily by the man himself but he will have loyal members who will naturally want to protect his interest. It is not because of bullet . It is a general thing. The devil shows up diffent ways. Even if it's just to cause obstruction in a service. It is glaring what the disciples did for Jesus ( some were not with Jesus consent though ) but it is a normal thing. See what the disciples did for paul too. That's security measure. Paul himself yield to security advice also did Jesus. Jesus heard that herod was planning to kill him and he stopped walking openly in the Jewry for a period . What is that? It is called security measure. Who gave him information? His men ofcourse. Some people may over do this but it's not in our place. Leave a man of God for God, lest you sin. |
| Re: Pastors And Body Guards. by free123: 6:54am On Apr 26, 2011 |
@azibalua the question would have been 'did Jesus ask peter to cut off someone's ear?' or 'did Jesus tell them what the swords were for?' it's ur opinion to assume the swords were for security whereas two swords wouldn't have been enough to secure Jesus from priests, captains, even the multitude. Ok why did Jesus not encourage peter to continue with the sword if actually He needed them to secure Him? Instead He taught him that he who lives by the sword dies by the sword. |
| Re: Pastors And Body Guards. by Joagbaje(m): 7:01am On Apr 26, 2011 |
^^ let me answer here. They carried swords not just because of his arrest. One the first thing is prevention. Prevent evil. Nobody said Jesus ordered them to kill. The same way. The MOGs have not ordered their security to shoot anybody. It's for prevention and order. Some people can overzealously do some things for the MOG. just like Peter did. |
| Re: Pastors And Body Guards. by KunleOshob(m): 7:44am On Apr 26, 2011 |
@unclejoe If your so called MOGs like oyaks did not make themselves unduly popular by focusing all the attention on themselves instead of christ they would not feel the need for protection in the first instance. Cardinal Olubunmi Okogie for instance heads a church that is by far bigger than all these your yeye penterascal churches with membership in the millions yet you would not see him moving around with security. Infact the man humbly sits in the front sit with the driver without even one single aid following him about in the so called guise of protocol. This same attitude is true for the head of the Nigerian baptist convention that has over 10,000 branches nationwide. Yet you would never hear his name in the press or get assaulted by seeing his picture in every branch like oyaks picture regularly offends us. A true man of God is supposed to be humble unlike your proud arrogant, designer suit loving, vain, money grabbing, bible twisting self anointed charlatans who claim to be men of God yet deny him by their actions. |
| Re: Pastors And Body Guards. by Joagbaje(m): 7:59am On Apr 26, 2011 |
The thread is not about oyakhilome. It is a general thing. For The men you mentioned . You're not in their house and you don't follow them to functions for you to know the security work. If Okogie should come to make address in Abuja stadium.you can't tell me there won't be security in place. That apart. Any minister of God that is Involved with casting out devils on a large scale and healing the sick, will have Satan coming after him I. Different ways .they get security information and take preventitive measures.when Paul had security information he took measures by being smuggled out in a basket or police escort but when he didn't have security information , was stoned and left for dead. Other times he was attacked by robbers . Security is common sense |
| Re: Pastors And Body Guards. by Azibalua(f): 8:20am On Apr 26, 2011 |
Ok why did Jesus not encourage peter to continue with the sword if actually He needed them to secure Him? Luke 22:35-51 35 Then Jesus asked them,"When I sent you out to preach the Good News and you were without money, duffle bag, or extra clothing, how did you get along?""Fine,"they replied. 36"But now,"he said,"take a duffle bag if you have one and your money. And if you don't have a sword, better sell your clothes and buy one! 37 For the time has come for this prophecy about me to come true:` He will be condemned as a criminal!'Yes, everything written about me by the prophets will come true." Anticipating evil or so you would say, at this time he asked them to procure swords 38"Master,"they replied,"we have two swords among us.""Enough!"he said. 39 Then, accompanied by the disciples, he left the upstairs room and went as usual to the Mount of Olives. 40 There he told them,"Pray God that you will not be overcome by temptation." 41- He walked away, perhaps a stone's throw, and knelt down and prayed this prayer:"Father, if you are willing, please take away this cup of horror from me. But I want your will, not mine."43 Then an angel from heaven appeared and strengthened him, 44 for he was in such agony of spirit that he broke into a sweat of blood, with great drops falling to the ground as he prayed more and more earnestly. 45 At last he stood up again and returned to the disciples-- only to find them asleep, exhausted from grief. 46"Asleep!"he said."Get up! Pray God that you will not fall when you are tempted. 47 But even as he said this, a mob approached, led by Judas, one of his twelve disciples. Judas walked over to Jesus and kissed him on the cheek in friendly greeting. 48 But Jesus said,"Judas, how can you do this-- betray the Messiah with a kiss?" 49 When the other disciples saw what was about to happen, they exclaimed,"Master, shall we fight? We brought along the swords!" Interesting they could remind him of the real function of the sword he asked them to buy Why do you think he ask them to buy swords,was it to make them function in their culture more? Definitely not 50 And one of them slashed at the high priest's servant and cut off his right ear. 51 But Jesus said,"Don't resist anymore."And he touched the place where the man's ear had been and restored it. At this point it was time to be taken and he had been strengthened and so there was no point resisting the arrest, but at the time he knew it was not yet his time to be taken, he figured out a way of escape. |
| Re: Pastors And Body Guards. by Azibalua(f): 8:29am On Apr 26, 2011 |
KunleOshob: And yet there are security men at these various churches, This has nothing to do with men of god it's more of a choice issue If you don't want it fine, But remember that there is no structure be it security or otherwise that is new to god almighty Colossians 1:16-17 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether[ they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. |
| Re: Pastors And Body Guards. by GreyBeard: 12:03pm On Apr 26, 2011 |
Joagbaje: Well lets look at the passage: Luke 22 (King James Version) 1Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover. . . . 14And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. . . . 31And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. 33And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death. 34And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me. 35And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. 37For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. 38And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough. Now looking at the above passages, a number of things become very clear. (1) This scene was taking place during the feast of the passover and Jesus was about to be betrayed. In other words, He had now reached the ending of His mission on earth. (2) Simon Peter - arguably his chief diciple, was about to be manipulated by satan. Jesus has prayed on his behalf but Simon's faith was not yet strong enough to successfully counter all the plans of satan for him at this period AND strengthen the other diciples. Which is why Jesus said: "But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." (3) Jesus knew that during this time He would be treated like a dangerous criminal (And he was reckoned among the transgressors) and His diciples would also be in extreme danger themselves. He also knew they didn't have enough spiritual faith to meet those dangers so would require physical protection for themselves at this time since He would be taken away from them. (4) So He asked them to buy swords at the END of His mission not DURING His mission. The swords where not for His protection but for their own as they obviously lacked the faith to deal with the forthcoming situation. (5) This was obviously NOT a mandate that all subsequent MOG should carry security for themselves but simply a precaution against the immediate danger for his diciples whose faith Jesus predicted would fail them. But afterwards ("when thou art converted") - then Simon would be strong enough even to strengthen others. Jesus did not need security during His lifetime and never requested it for Himself but only for those who He knew didn't have enough faith to face a pending danger. So if some MOG today need "two swords" (bodyguards), then their faith must also be failing them in the face of danger and like Simon need to be "converted" to have enough faith to strenghten themselves and their flock. |
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