4evergod2:


A friend of mine who was once an atheist like you bur now a believer shared something with me which he says scares him everytime he reflects on his days as an atheist.

He said at a point in his life as an atheist that it was as if every man made thing was speaking to him and ridiculing him. He said he actually felt like an iddiot.

He said back then he felt like he was driving a fast moving car and being about to have a head on collision with a truck and because he believed in nothing like morals actually expected the brakes to work themselves without his help.

He said that was how he felt whenever he thought of death. He had absolutely no control over it and it scared him because his self will should have been able to choose not to die but it couldnt. He couldnt even choose not to be sick. He said he felt more vulnerable then than he does now as a believer. That now even if he cannot apply the brakes he knows who can tell the brakes to apply themselves and they would do just that and he now knows who has assured him of life after this life.

Its not too late for you dalaman. I love you bro.

What an empty story

So all atheists must fear death?

Your Pathetic attempts at finding anything else common to all atheists asides our lack of belief in any god is getting pathological

Take a step back for a moment

Even theists can see your desperation

But hey, I'm just passing by

I'll leave you guys to it

See you in another thread

hopefulLandlord:


What an empty story

So all atheists must fear death?

Your Pathetic attempts at finding anything else common to all atheists asides our lack of belief in any god is getting pathological

Take a step back for a moment

Even theists can see your desperation

But hey, I'm just passing by

I'll leave you guys to it

See you in another thread

Yep keep trolling. Perhaps someday you will troll upon some common sense.

4evergod2:



So with all the ways I tried explaining the crux of my question you still did not get it?

Ok let me ask you like I would ask my little kid , perhaps you would understand it then.


If I asked you to make sure a light bulb lights up and the switch is automatically designed to switch on and off would that switch light up the bulb in itself?

What I am asking you is like asking someone, " what causes you to breathe? Is it because tou suck in air through your nose that causes your lungs to expand and contract? Or do your lungs function even if you had no nose?

I thought you were smart but I guess you aren't. If you were smart then you would have realised that there ca be no Chicken without an egg and no egg without a chicken.

God has a huge sense of humour and you Atheists are here to give God and us some comic relief.

Actually the joke is on you. You are just trying to tell me that God is the source of human morality but you have failed to show us how. Which God is the source of human morality among the many different God that we have? Why are there different set of moral codes? Why do some people see somethings as right and other see the same things as wrong if God is the source of human morality. I always give example with the Islamic sharia system. Muslims believe that the sharia system of morality is the best moral system that was given to Human beings by God himself. Do you agree to that? Why or why not? Did God really create the Sharia system and handed it over to humans as claimed by over 1.7 billion muslims? If sharia wasn't created by God as muslims claim then who created it?

There are tens of millions of Hindus that believe in the caste system of living. They happily accept it as a divine system of living that is ideal for humans as directed by their Gods. Is the caste system divine? Why or why not? And if it is not divine then who created it.

I have just given you two moral systems that I know you find abhorrent which the adherents claim were divinely inspired. Saying that God is the source of human morality is false because you haven't demonstrated it to be true. You are just stating it. Remember that there are many Gods and many different religions with very different moral codes of conduct that also claim that they got it from their own various Gods.

Touchnot01:
I'm sorry, but i think you've disgraced yourself enough on this thread.

If you lived and grew up in a society that accepts and practices beastiality you will not see any thing wrong with it. That is the reality of the matter.

The pictures below shows how Americans were living in 1801 just about 200 years ago. At that time lynching of black people was allowed and the people saw nothing wrong with it. They happily took pictures and posed with of the corpse of lynched black people. They even gathered together with their kids to take pictures with the corpse of lynched black men . These are just normal white Americans of that time who were mostly christians. They didn't see anything wrong with what they were doing because it was acceptable and even promoted by the society in which they lived in.

4evergod2:



Yep keep trolling. Perhaps someday you will troll upon some common sense.

Choi ! " troll upon some common sense."

dalaman:


Actually the joke is on you. You are just trying to tell me that God is the source of human morality but you have failed to show us how. Which God is the source of human morality among the many different God that we have? Why are there different set of moral codes? Why do some people see somethings as right and other see the same things as wrong if God is the source of human morality. I always give example with the Islamic sharia system. Muslims believe that the sharia system of morality is the best moral system that was given to Human beings by God himself. Do you agree to that? Why or why not? Did God really create the Sharia system and handed it over to humans as claimed by over 1.7 billion muslims? If sharia wasn't created by God as muslims claim then who created it?

There are tens of millions of Hindus that believe in the caste system of living. They happily accept it as a divine system of living that is ideal for humans as directed by their Gods. Is the caste system divine? Why or why not? And if it is not divine then who created it.

I have just given you two moral systems that I know you find abhorrent which the adherents claim were divinely inspired. Saying that God is the source of human morality is false because you haven't demonstrated it to be true. You are just stating it. Remember that there are many Gods and many different religions with very different moral codes of conduct that also claim that they got it from their own various Gods.

This is absolute proof of your lack of comprehension. I have told you on 2 occasions that I never said God is the source of moral codes which is why I kept asking you the question, " why are people searching for their own idea of morality"

I have told you repeatedly that you only see what you want to see.

If all systems and beliefs have different moral ethics why do they even have the moral ethics in the first place even when they vary and why the continuous quest for morality in all this chaos and vacuum?

You need to understand that God does not impose morality on anyone but gave a blueprint we are free to tinker with until we are satisfied enough.

This is like saying "how come women need men to reproduce and men need women to reproduce" why can we not have both men and women sharing one body? Why does one have breasts and the other doesn't and how is it that sperm is programmed to locate the egg and not something else and why would the egg shut out all other sperm cells immediately one fertilizes it...can both the egg and sperm think for themselves as creatures with a mind and brain do.

From the time of the Greeks, there have been many philosophers who have sought to prove that it is possible to have a universal morality without God. There have been many arguments presented to support this position, and in theory they may be right, depending on what one means by the word universal. They would say, all you have to have is a consensus on what is considered right and wrong behavior. Their position, with which I disagree, goes something like this:
First: If God is necessary for morality, then whatever God deems moral is moral. Therefore, why praise God for what He has done if He could have just as likely done the opposite, and it would have been equally moral. If whatever God says goes, then if God decreed that adultery was permissible, then adultery would be permissible. If things are neither right nor wrong independently of God's will, then God cannot choose one thing over another because it is right. Thus, if He does choose one over another, His choice must be arbitrary. But a being whose decisions are arbitrary is not worthy of worship.

Second: If goodness is a defining attribute of God, then God cannot be used to define goodness. If we do so, we are guilty of circular reasoning. That is, if we use goodness to define God, we can't also use God to define goodness.

Third: If one doesn't believe in God, being told that one must do as God commands will not help one solve any moral dilemmas.

Some philosophers, therefore, come to the following conclusion: the idea that a moral law requires a divine lawgiver is untenable.

What should be our response as Christians? We should point out to people who side with the preceding position their lack of understanding concerning both God and the nature of man.

God is the creator and sustainer of all things. We would not even be self aware, let alone aware of right and wrong, if God had not created within us His image, and therefore the ability to make moral distinctions. The truth is we have no reference point for all this discussion about morality except as God reveals it. For us to argue with the source of morality is for the clay to argue with the potter.

Some philosophers say that for God to define what is right or wrong is arbitrary. God is not arbitrary; He is the source of all life and therefore the source of all truth. We have no basis to even understand the concept of being arbitrary except in reference to an unchanging God. That which would be circular reasoning or arbitrary in discussions about ourselves comes into perfect focus as we bring the dilemma close to the universal, absolute focal point for all creation, God Himself.

The second problem with these arguments is that they fail to recognize the nature of man. If man were not fallen, i.e., not corrupted by sin, we would have limitless potential to create from within ourselves a universal moral code. But, we are a fallen lot, every last one of us, and therefore incapable of fully knowing what is good (Rom. 3:23). We are even incapable of carrying out what we do know to be good (Rom. 7:18-21).

So the question of right or wrong has everything to do with the origin of our belief, not just the substance of it. No matter how sincerely I believe I am right about some moral decision, the true test is in the origin of that belief. And God is the only universal and absolute origin to all morality

Is morality located only in the actions we see? If so, it will be very difficult to recognise the distinctive features of the moral vision of a Christian or the moral vision of a Hindu, Buddhist, Jew or Muslim. If we view morality in relation to the person as a whole, rather than just as the actions we see, however, then moral vision becomes more significant. What a person does will no longer be separated from why (s)he does it. Just like when you said you will not stop your kid from performing acts of Beastiality if the state permits it as law.....this is your moral identity based on who you are and explains why you said that.

But all we do just simply still asks the questions...Why do we even care? Why do we hate? Why do we love? Why do we have emotional reactions when we do not have a clue where emotions emanate from?

This shows that there is some form of encrypted design in us that nobody can explain but how? This can only be explained by how we think we emerged.

Evolution? If its evolution then science would have located the machinery for emotions by now or why we do what we do in the first place and not just move around without a care in the world

God? Its more plausible that someone yet unknown to us made us in such a perfect manner and we cannot understand or explain it same way its only the baker or cook that know his or her secret ingredient and you will keep playing the guessing game because you are not in on the secret.

4evergod2:


This is absolute proof of your lack of comprehension. I have told you on 2 occasions that I never said God is the source of moral codes which is why I kept asking you the question, " why are people searching for their own idea of morality"

I have told you repeatedly that you only see what you want to see.

If all systems and beliefs have different moral ethics why do they even have the moral ethics in the first place even when they vary and why the continuous quest for morality in all this chaos and vacuum?

You need to understand that God does not impose morality on anyone but gave a blueprint we are free to tinker with until we are satisfied enough.

This is like saying "how come women need men to reproduce and men need women to reproduce" why can we not have both men and women sharing one body? Why does one have breasts and the other doesn't and how is it that sperm is programmed to locate the egg and not something else and why would the egg shut out all other sperm cells immediately one fertilizes it...can both the egg and sperm think for themselves as creatures with a mind and brain do.

From the time of the Greeks, there have been many philosophers who have sought to prove that it is possible to have a universal morality without God. There have been many arguments presented to support this position, and in theory they may be right, depending on what one means by the word universal. They would say, all you have to have is a consensus on what is considered right and wrong behavior. Their position, with which I disagree, goes something like this:
First: If God is necessary for morality, then whatever God deems moral is moral. Therefore, why praise God for what He has done if He could have just as likely done the opposite, and it would have been equally moral. If whatever God says goes, then if God decreed that adultery was permissible, then adultery would be permissible. If things are neither right nor wrong independently of God's will, then God cannot choose one thing over another because it is right. Thus, if He does choose one over another, His choice must be arbitrary. But a being whose decisions are arbitrary is not worthy of worship.

Second: If goodness is a defining attribute of God, then God cannot be used to define goodness. If we do so, we are guilty of circular reasoning. That is, if we use goodness to define God, we can't also use God to define goodness.

Third: If one doesn't believe in God, being told that one must do as God commands will not help one solve any moral dilemmas.

Some philosophers, therefore, come to the following conclusion: the idea that a moral law requires a divine lawgiver is untenable.

What should be our response as Christians? We should point out to people who side with the preceding position their lack of understanding concerning both God and the nature of man.

God is the creator and sustainer of all things. We would not even be self aware, let alone aware of right and wrong, if God had not created within us His image, and therefore the ability to make moral distinctions. The truth is we have no reference point for all this discussion about morality except as God reveals it. For us to argue with the source of morality is for the clay to argue with the potter.

Some philosophers say that for God to define what is right or wrong is arbitrary. God is not arbitrary; He is the source of all life and therefore the source of all truth. We have no basis to even understand the concept of being arbitrary except in reference to an unchanging God. That which would be circular reasoning or arbitrary in discussions about ourselves comes into perfect focus as we bring the dilemma close to the universal, absolute focal point for all creation, God Himself.

The second problem with these arguments is that they fail to recognize the nature of man. If man were not fallen, i.e., not corrupted by sin, we would have limitless potential to create from within ourselves a universal moral code. But, we are a fallen lot, every last one of us, and therefore incapable of fully knowing what is good (Rom. 3:23). We are even incapable of carrying out what we do know to be good (Rom. 7:18-21).

So the question of right or wrong has everything to do with the origin of our belief, not just the substance of it. No matter how sincerely I believe I am right about some moral decision, the true test is in the origin of that belief. And God is the only universal and absolute origin to all morality

Is morality located only in the actions we see? If so, it will be very difficult to recognise the distinctive features of the moral vision of a Christian or the moral vision of a Hindu, Buddhist, Jew or Muslim. If we view morality in relation to the person as a whole, rather than just as the actions we see, however, then moral vision becomes more significant. What a person does will no longer be separated from why (s)he does it.

Stop copying and pasting christians apologetic materials mindlessly without studying to see if they agree with the reality around you. I have told you that the Christian God is not the only God people believe in. About 70 percent of the world's population today does NOT believe in the Christian God. They believe in other Gods while others believe in no God's at all. But everybody strives to live in a moral and just society according to what ever they feel is moral or just for them. Saying that human beings are falling creatures as you have stated is empty and baseless christian mythology. 70 percent of the world's population do not believe that humans are fallen creatures. Saying that your God is the foundation of human morality is demonstrably false, because a majority of the world's population does not believe in your God and see their own God's as the foundation of whatever moral concept they chose to live by. I have been stating reality while you have been parroting your religuous dogma and make belief blindy. I can also parrot dogma and say that the sharia moral system is the only system of morality that the creator of humans passed down to us. That's what over 1.7 billion muslims say and it is true. Prove me wrong and show me that Allah did not pass down the sharia system as the best system for us as humans to Iive by.

dalaman:


If you lived and grew up in a society that accepts and practices beastiality you will not see any thing wrong with it. That is the reality of the matter.

The pictures below shows how Americans were living in 1801 just about 200 years ago. At that time lynching of black people was allowed and the people saw nothing wrong with it. They happily took pictures and posed with of the corpse of lynched black people. They even gathered together with their kids to take pictures with the corpse of lynched black men . These are just normal white Americans of that time who were mostly christians. They didn't see anything wrong with what they were doing because it was acceptable and even promoted by the society in which they lived in.

You are still not getting it. The Americans who did that did so for a reason. Those reasons where their morals back then but WHY DID THEY EVEN HAVE THOSE MORALS EVEN THOUGH BY COMPARISON TO TODAYS MORALS THEY ARE SEEN AS WRONG.

WHY WHY WHY?

I am not judging right from wrong and who is and who is not I am asking about why we even care tk do what we do in the first place be they right or wrong.

Young man you need to dig and not this surface reasoning

dalaman:


Stop copying and pasting christians apologetic materials mindlessly without studying to see if they agree with the reality around you. I have told you that the Christian God is not the only God people believe in. About 70 percent of the world's population today does NOT believe in the Christian God. They believe in other Gods while others believe in no God's at all. But everybody strives to live in a moral and just society according to what ever they feel is moral or just for them. Saying that human beings are falling creatures as you have stated is empty and baseless christian mythology. 70 percent of the world's population do not believe that humans are fallen creatures. Saying that your God is the foundation of human morality is demonstrably false, because a majority of the world's population does not believe in your God and see their own God's as the foundation of whatever moral concept they chose to live by. I have been stating reality while you have been parroting your religuous dogma and make belief blindy. I can also parrot dogma and say that the sharia moral system is the only system of morality that the creator of humans passed down to us. That's what over 1.7 billion muslims say and it is true. Prove me wrong and show me that Allah did not pass down the sharia system as the best system for us as humans to Iive by.

Whatever religious belief or traditionalists can have their version of morals but WHY DO THEG EVEN CARE TO DO THAT? What is it that gives us this feeling that we need it..we desire it.

You keep going round in circles but all I ask is why we do what we do?

You said man began as savages so where did laws emanate from and why are all men not homosexuals or rapists or murderers? What makes one different from the next? Why do we even have the ability to choose? Why are we not simply zombified? Why do you feel rage? Rage is not related to physical pain so where is it coming from? Joy is not related to physical pleasure because one can be happy without physical pleasure so where are these coming from?

Who teaches a new born baby how to smile or cry and they grow up and know a smile is good and to cry is sad. But who taught them initially?

Even you cried when you were born. Whk taught you that?

4evergod2:



You are still not getting it. The Americans who did that did so for a reason. Those reasons where their morals back then but WHY DID THEY EVEN HAVE THOSE MORALS EVEN THOUGH BY COMPARISON TO TODAYS MORALS THEY ARE SEEN AS WRONG.

WHY WHY WHY?

I am not judging right from wrong and who is and who is not I am asking about why we even care tk do what we do in the first place be they right or wrong.

Young man you need to dig and not this surface reasoning

Are you asking me why people do go or bad? I really do not know how to answer you.

4evergod2:



Whatever religious belief or traditionalists can have their version of morals but WHY DO THEG EVEN CARE TO DO THAT? What is it that gives us this feeling that we need it..we desire it.

There is no one reason but a combination of reasons, part of it is that we want to live in harmony with our neighbors, because we seek justice, because we are subjects to those that rule over us and have to obey what ever it is they carve out as laws for us, part of itbosnthat we are rational beings and can self reflect on our actions, part of it is that we have empathy etc. There are so many reasons and factors as to why people will want to act morally or abide by already set out moral codes of conduct. Saying that God made us moral is empty since human history and anthropology has shown that humans had to teach themselves morality.

dalaman:


Are you asking me why people do go or bad? I really do not know how to answer you.

Now you are getting it. You simply do not know! But people still do it. So its back to the question.... WHY?

How come what is good for one is bad for another yet we do it and feel ours is right even when it is not.

WHY?

dalaman:


There is no one reason but a combination of reasons, part of it is that we want to live in harmony with our neighbors, because we seek justice, because we are subjects to those that rule over us and have to obey what ever it is they carve out as laws for us, part of itbosnthat we are rational beings and can self reflect on our actions, part of it is that we have empathy etc. There are so many reasons and factors as to why people will want to act morally or abide by already set out moral codes of conduct. Saying that God made us moral is empty since human history and anthropology has shown that humans had to teach themselves morality.

How did we become rational? How is possible that we can reflect on our actions and a gorilla whom we evolved from cannot? If we had to teach ourselves morality who decides what is right and what is wrong and why does morality vary from place to place if we had to teach ourselves? Do u not see that this is bigger than just morality? There is something independent in us that makes us want to know for ourselves hence the differences in morality... but why?

Dalaman when you were born...you cried and when your mom tickled you, you laughed.

Why did you not cry when tickled and why did you not laugh when born?

Who taught you which was which as a new born baby?

4evergod2 , Dalaman is a cantankerous human being . And will argue till death rather than admit that to the existence of a supernatural creator . The subterfuge he employs during arguments is to state Old Testament texts - Judaism - condemn reprehensible acts of Christians of the 18th and 19th century and compare Christianty to other religions .

Nothing more , nothing less . Then it becomes threadbare and soporific . Same thing yesterday , today and maybe till he gives his life back to Christ . Winner01 and I will always argue about the same thing with him in a thousand different ways .

KingEbukaNaija:
4evergod2 , Dalaman is a cantankerous human being . And will argue till death rather than admit that to the existence of a supernatural creator . The subterfuge he employs during arguments is to state Old Testament texts - Judaism - condemn reprehensible acts of Christians of the 18th and 19th century and compare Christianty to other religions .

Nothing more , nothing less . Then it becomes threadbare and soporific . Same thing yesterday , today and maybe till he gives his life back to Christ . Winner01 and I will always argue about the same thing with him in a thousand different ways .

The young man is closer now to God than he was a week ago. He is beginning to think and not just argue. I pray he comes back to Christ because I am not just desirous of arguing with him but I genuinely love him and want him to come back home. The more he asks about life the more he would realise he does not understand.

If well read scientists, philosophers and all who had access to more information than he has and were once Atheists could turn around and accept Jesus into their lives and he is still using what these same scientists theorised when they were atheists and are now believers then he is living in a very fragile bubble.

He needs our prayers and not ridicule. God loves and needs him back home.

KingEbukaNaija:
4evergod2 , Dalaman is a cantankerous human being . And will argue till death rather than admit that to the existence of a supernatural creator . The subterfuge he employs during arguments is to state Old Testament texts - Judaism - condemn reprehensible acts of Christians of the 18th and 19th century and compare Christianty to other religions .

Nothing more , nothing less . Then it becomes threadbare and soporific . Same thing yesterday , today and maybe till he gives his life back to Christ . Winner01 and I will always argue about the same thing with him in a thousand different ways .

Ok. There is a supernatural creator and his name is Allah. He sent down the Koranand revealed his perect religion whichis Islam . Accept it so that you will live according to the plans he has for you and avoid eternal damnation.

4evergod2:
Dalaman when you were born...you cried and when your mom tickled you, you laughed.

Why did you not cry when tickled and why did you not laugh when born?

Who taught you which was which as a new born baby?

Really? Are you asking me such questions.

dalaman:


Really? Are you asking me such questions.

Yes I am. Pray tell.

dalaman:


Ok. There is a supernatural creator and his name is Allah. He sent down the Koranand revealed his perect religion whichis Islam . Accept it so that you will live according to the plans he has for you and avoid eternal damnation.

How dare you chose yahweh or allah, your ignorance is forgiven

Brahma is the creator of the universe

Vishnu keeps the world safe

And Shiva would eventually destroy the world

Bow to them and accept them to your life

Do not attempt to go for any lesser god

The greatest trimurti (Trinity) is what I just exposed you to

You can no longer claim ignorance

hopefulLandlord:


How dare you chose yahweh or allah, your ignorance is forgiven

Brahma is the creator of the universe

Vishnu keeps the world safe

And Shiva would eventually destroy the world

Bow to them and accept them to your life

Do not attempt to go for any lesser god

The greatest trimurti (Trinity) is what I just exposed you to

You can no longer claim ignorance

Rape wasn't always a crime in the Middle East two thousand years ago. Is that why 'do not rape' is not part of the Ten Commandments?

Do lions need 'god-given' morality to understand how to care for their young, co-operate within a pack, or feel anguish at the loss of a companion? Why do we?
.


.
If organized religion requires a civilization in which to spread, how could this civilization exist without first having a moral code to make us civil?

hopefulLandlord:
Rape wasn't always a crime in the Middle East two thousand years ago. Is that why 'do not rape' is not part of the Ten Commandments?

Its obvious you just want to jump in without first grasping what the issue is.

I am not talking about right or wrong or what is a crime or what isnt.

I asked a simple question.....WHY DO WE EVEN CARE? Why are we emotionally driven? Is emotions encoded in our DNA? If yes then is there a scientific proof to that effect?

dalaman:


Ok. There is a supernatural creator and his name is Allah. He sent down the Koranand revealed his perect religion whichis Islam . Accept it so that you will live according to the plans he has for you and avoid eternal damnation.

There is a supernatural creator and there is eternal damnation . Which is the true one ?

hopefulLandlord:
Do lions need 'god-given' morality to understand how to care for their young, co-operate within a pack, or feel anguish at the loss of a companion? Why do we?
.


.
If organized religion requires a civilization in which to spread, how could this civilization exist without first having a moral code to make us civil?

Lions have the ability to hurt but not the ability to reason around this hurt.

This is why a leader of one pride when he takes over anothers territory will first kill all the offspring from the vanquished leader so he can replace them with his own. Its in their system and has always been. Why can they not see anything wrong in that but we do?

There is a difference!

4evergod2:



Its obvious you just want to jump in without first grasping what the issue is.

I am not talking about right or wrong or what is a crime or what isnt.

I asked a simple question.....WHY DO WE EVEN CARE? Why are we emotionally driven? Is emotions encoded in our DNA? If yes then is there a scientific proof to that effect?

He does not understand the question . He just needs to satisfy his irrestible urge to attack religious people

4evergod2:



Its obvious you just want to jump in without first grasping what the issue is.

I am not talking about right or wrong or what is a crime or what isnt.

I asked a simple question.....WHY DO WE EVEN CARE? Why are we emotionally driven? Is emotions encoded in our DNA? If yes then is there a scientific proof to that effect?

It probably is encoded in our DNA, and society as a whole influences it
.
.
Is there a scientific proof to that effect? I don't know if there's one
.
.

KingEbukaNaija:


He does not understand the question . He just needs to satisfy his irrestible urge to attack religious people

Not tryna cause a rift here but your friend is making much more sense than you, you just interpreted everything as an "attack"

We are all here to discuss and learn

Let's do that please

hopefulLandlord:


It probably is encoded in our DNA, and society as a whole influences it
.
.
Is there a scientific proof to that effect? I don't know if there's one
.
.

Well if you do not know if there is proof do not speak about a probability.

KingEbukaNaija:


There is a supernatural creator and there is eternal damnation . Which is the true one ?

Both are true when it comes to Allah. He is the creator and will damn all the unbelievers eternally.

hopefulLandlord:
Rape wasn't always a crime in the Middle East two thousand years ago. Is that why 'do not rape' is not part of the Ten Commandments?

Back then if you rape a girl you will be forced to marry her.