m_nwankwo:

Hi Noetic. The information I stated in my post is not from the bible. What I said is what I am permitted to spirtually draw from the laws of God. The laws of God record every happening in creation and sometimes I am permitted to look into these records. Now I intentionally did not say the name because it is a name most christians are familiar with and it will raise more questions and will lead into step by step revelation of identity of Elijah in his various incarnations on earth. I do not consider the revelation of his identity to be of spirtual benefit. Besides, I am also not permitted to reveal the identity of this specially called servant of God. But that does not mean that others cannot not come to such knowledge. It lies in the omniscience of God to reveal such to any seeker who need it for his own clarification. Stay blessed.

may I ask, what religion u practise?

noetic16:

may I ask, what religion u practise?

Hi again Noetic. I do not belong to any religion. But I sense that what you meant is to which spiritual teachings do I adhere to. I live according to the teachings of the Grail Message by Abd-ru-Shin. Stay blessed.

I dont always place that much stock on dreams because many times they're simply a manifestation of the subconscious.

Not saying all dreams arent significant however.

Well. Maybe not teach him. But your explanations are so eye-opening it wouldn't be fair to not let one know more.

Noetic,

That'll take a while. I'll put it together and paste it, along with some early church history.

Hi mad_max!
You have brought a lot to the thread for which I am grateful. I ate up with a spoon the part you talked about the Bible, as that is a topic I am keenly interested in. That is why I opened this thread titled Biblical Inerrancy. You may wish to offer more perspectives on that.

On reincarnation, my realisation since lately when I started to concern myself with and introspect on it is that there is no way there can be no reincarnation. I once asked a cousin who is into mysticism whether it is possible to see one’s past incarnations, and he said yes. Sometime last year I attended a forum organized by his school, picked a membership form and proceeded to filled it. Now, I picked the form because I am interested in seeing past incarnations. (I never was interested in astral travel or some weired stuff like that. But this seeing past incarnation matter. . .) But I never processed that form precisely because of the concerns I expressed in OP. I soon started to ask myself why there are so many spiritual movements all having fundamental differences in beliefs. I realised then that it was still possible to “experience” and be duped – which I reckon would be worse than being “blind”.

I think there is something in Justcool’s explanation about “an Elijah”. Strangely, that happens to accord with the understanding I had reading that verse as a kid.

m_nwankwo:

Hi Madmax. I rejoice with you on your recognition that reincarnation do happen. I wish you strength.  I was offering my perception to MyJoe and I am not qualified  to teach him. Stay blessed.

A professor not qualified to teach a kindergartner? That will be the day!

m_nwankwo is light years ahead of us all. But he's maddeningly modest. He knows many things. One may not agree with everything he says, but you'll learn new things all the same.

As for the doctrine of the inerrancy of the Bible, it's responsible for many people losing their religion. You're brought up in the unshakeable belief that it's the word of God and so you see everything in it with rose-coloured spectacles. When you leave the cocoon of indoctrination and do a little digging, horrible things come out and you lose faith in God. How can one see nothing wrong with accounts of a tribe waging war on others, dashing children against stones, murdering them all, killing married women and taking the virgins for themselves. They claim God told them to do it. God promised them the land. But the earth is the Lord's and the goodnes thereof. Even now there are un-inhabited stretches of land in the world. Why didn't 'God' lead them to land that wasn't already occupied? But the Israelites wanted farms they hadn't sown, houses they hadn't built, wells they hadn't dug, a ready-made city. So they committed atrocities and claimed it as God that sent them, as if those people aren't human beings, as if they don't matter matter to God. But the OT is the story from the Jewish perspective, so of course they'll make it seem the height of valour to murder children and rape young girls. To make heroes out of murderers. They invented all manner of stories saying their God had given them the land. Is land finished in all the earth? If he could part the red sea for you like you claim, could he not make cities out of deserts for you? They have their myths like all cultures, but since it's in the 'holy','inerrant' bible, God must have sent them to murder and rape, it must all be true. The story of they and the Midianites alone is enough to make you gnash your teeth and wonder at the madness of people.

People have known and believed God without the 'inerrant' bible for ages. He's never left us since we started inhabiting time. The bible itself recently got to the public in the 15th or 16th century, after gazillions of tampering with, every Tom and Harry inserting his own dogma in it. I suppose all those who lived before the bible became public never knew God and are now rotting in hell.

Honestly, if I didn't know God is real and true and absolutely loving and compassionate BEFORE I found out these things I would have left all religion in disgust. I don't blame those that do. But God isn't what the Jews have created. He is a far grander being, and there is no evil in him. We simply can't stop projecting the worst in us onto God.

Mad_Max:

m_nwankwo is light years ahead of us all. But he's maddeningly modest. He knows many things. One may not agree with everything he says, but you'll learn new things all the same.

As for the doctrine of the  inerrancy of the Bible, it's responsible for many people losing their religion. You're brought up in the unshakeable belief that it's the word of God and so you see everything in it with rose-coloured spectacles. When you leave the cocoon of indoctrination and do a little digging, horrible things come out and you lose faith in God. How can one see nothing wrong with accounts of a tribe waging war on others, dashing children against stones, murdering them all, killing married women and taking the virgins for themselves. They claim God told them to do it. God promised them the land. But the earth is the Lord's and the goodnes thereof. Even now there are un-inhabited stretches of land in the world. Why didn't 'God' lead them to land that wasn't already occupied? But the Israelites wanted farms they hadn't sown, houses they hadn't built, wells they hadn't dug, a ready-made city. So they committed atrocities and claimed it as God that sent them, as if those people aren't human beings, as if they don't matter matter to God. But the OT is the story from the Jewish perspective, so of course they'll make it seem the height of valour to murder children and despoil young girls. To make heroes out of murderers. They invented all manner of stories saying their God had given them the land. Is land finished in all the earth? If he could part the red sea for you like you claim, could he not make cities out of deserts for you? They have their myths like all cultures, but since it's in the 'holy','inerrant' bible, God must have sent them to murder and despoil, it must all be true. The story of they and the Midianites alone is enough to make you gnash your teeth and wonder at the madness of people.

People have known and believed God without the 'inerrant' bible for ages. He's never left us since we started inhabiting time. The bible itself recently got to the public in the 15th or 16th century, after gazillions of tampering with, every Tom and Harry inserting his own dogma in it. I suppose all those who lived before the bible became public never knew God and are now rotting in hell.

Honestly, if I didn't know God is real and true and absolutely loving and compassionate BEFORE I found out these things I would have left all religion in disgust.  I don't blame those that do. But God isn't what the Jews have created. He is a far grander being, and there is no evil in him. We simply can't stop projecting the worst in us onto God.

Well said. P-E-R-F-E-C-T-L-Y put! It's sad how we are ending up with a break or bend situation. People are doing religion and getting inebriated, ceding their basic reasoning faculties to follow rainbows. Others look and spot the flaws and then conclude there is no God at all! It is sad.

I am enjoying this thread. I have learnt so much from you all. Thank you.

m_nwankwo:

Hi again Noetic. I do not belong to any religion. But I sense that what you meant is to which spiritual teachings do  I adhere to. I live according to the teachings of the Grail Message by Abd-ru-Shin. Stay blessed.

U come across as calm and informed. So I'd like to ask you, why did u reject Jesus gift of salvation? do u believe in hell?

Hi All, sorry I'm late. May I beg your leave to join the convo? Thank you kindly .

First, I'd like to say this is such a well mannered thread and interesting, and I'd like to applaud all the discussants. I've all but swooned at the cast and of course the submissions, revealing as it were the earnestness of some of the seekers here. I'll try and post in the same vein and not let the more "unascended" parts of my nature get a look in. Although I may well be tested if any of our resident fantasists, demagogues or cross-dressers make an appearance.

I know it’s currently modish on "The Land" to laugh in human, angelic and antique languages, however, right now, I'm rather standing here looking quizzical and scratching my head in KiSwahilli, as some of this is Greek to me - no offense of course to any Greeks - pele 0, on your current financial travails - or KiSwahillians (lovely country y'all have there ) for that matter.

Apologies if I'm rambling, but I've been on a "posting sabbathical". I also went away - sun, sea and sand, since you so kindly ask - so I'm a little rusty as I make myself ready to actually articulate something. Please bear with me, its late here, I’m musing and the thread is a little quiet, so hopefully I have it all to myself for a while. ^{Hope I don't get yellow-carded before I actually say anything. Aunty Jess, ManMustDine, please 0, no vex!}

I wouldn’t want to derail the thread either – for a straight red - but as is wont to happen this thread has developed a few “side-tracks”, and my questions – 2 in total – pertain to some of those.

1. Reincarnation:
It may be helpful to note here that I’m happy to be identified as Christian – in as much as that can mean something different to everyone who identifies themselves as such. Having said that, I don’t have a hard and fast doctrinal position on re-incarnation, nor is that a particular concern. However, the default position in Christianity appears to be that such a notion is unfounded, the teaching being one of resurrection.

Being an avid reader of the scriptures, I have been conscious – for a while now - to see if I can glean such a notion myself and frankly I can’t. Further, the parts of the biblical narrative posted on this thread to support it, I honestly don’t see as doing so. Not having any revelationary insight or scriptural gleaning, could someone please explain in simple terms;

- What resurrection is
- What is its purpose
- I’d also be grateful for any personal experience or biblical outline for it
- Is anyone is willing to expound on the worldview they follow which teaches it?

Particularly Mad_Max, m_nwankwo and MyJoe. And sincere apologies if I’ve mis-ascribed anything to anyone. Whilst many of the comments appear to take ressurection for granted, I didn’t sense a coherent or consensus position on it, not here and not thus far at least.

Could TV01 really be John The Baptist, or should that be Elijah or whoever came before him or after them both, or? I hope you appreciate the reason for the KiSwahillian/Greek intro now?

2.Biblical Inerrancy
First I actually followed this to MyJoe’ thread on the subject and I’d actually stopped by there before, but since I wasn’t “called out” as it were, I didn’t actually post. I could post there I suppose, but I don’t think I really need to. However, if it gets to that point, I may well yet. For now, two things;

(a) My answers to the original questions posed on that thread would be i. Mute point and ii. No.

i. If you have a heavy duty mac designed to keep out the rain – and it does just that – yet it has a frayed hem, holed or lint filled pockets and is rather scruffy, even ill-fitting even, is it fit for purpose or not? When you understand the purpose of the bible and see that it perfectly fulfils that purpose, then inerrancy becomes a mute point.

ii. I need a recipe for sea-bass and I’ve searched the scriptures to no avail. No, it’s not complete in the sense that all questions are answered therein. It’s complete in its purpose and intent. I’m hungry and the bible is not a cookbook, nor is it bread. But it shows the way to satisfy that hunger. You can’t know God from the bible, it’s simply not intended that purpose.

(b) Mad_Max, you at once discredited the bible, yet at the same time sought recourse to it too ground your notion of reincarnation and even built a theory based on it. Shouldn’t a “gazillion tampering” mean discarding it in its entirety?


Thanks for your time everyone and I’d really appreciate some insight per my two questions above. I’d like to be able to stop the head-scratching - in any tongue. But its late here and I’ll bid you all goodbye for now in English as I yawn in Arapaho .

God bless
TV

Fascinating thread. I've been reading it from the beginning. Personally I do not believe in reincarnation as a special isolated event. In my opinion, it either does not ever occur or all of us reincarnate. If it were in special cases to complete a mission or to serve a punishment say, the supposedly reincarnated has no idea he has come back and how can he serve punishment for some stuff he has no memory of ever doing? We could all be reincarnated for all we know.

@Myjoe
Exactly!

@TV01
Naw, a gazillion tampering isn't grounds for dismissal lol. There's both truth and untruth in the bible, as befits the handiwork of men. I first came across Christ, the real Christ, in the gospel of John (who personally knew Jesus, thank you very much).  From his account, I begun to know what I believed and not what I'd been indocrinated with. The purpose of the Bible? What is it's purpose? And whose purpose is it? God's? Maybe. But if it took God one thousand five hundred years to get the man-crafted bible to the masses, it either doesn't matter as much as we think or it matters and God is spectacularly incompetent. There are many ways to God, not one.

@Vesc
IF it's to repay a debt, you don't have to have a memory of it. It seems it's usually paid in that same life anyways. And reincarnation isn't always punishment. Sometimes it's unfulfilled mission. There are other possibilites after death. An incredible amount of choices. But I do think people are sometimes reincarnated if they've done evil and haven't paid for it. I'm talking of the evil 'good' people do. Evil people simply find themselves in hell when they die. Not as punishment, but because like attracts like, the forces of attraction and repulsion undergirds the universe and when you die your spirit is attracted to realms and spirits like yourself. I don't fully understand it yet. It appears that for some, their deeply held and deeply cherished beliefs while on earth determines what happens to them after they die. What happens is something their own mind and will has created. It's possible for others who don't share their beliefs to observe them in the spirit realms as what they deeply believe and so have created, happens to them. It's not very clear yet.

As for sowing and reaping, not only do individuals pay for the choices they make, entire groups and tribes and nations do. Look at the Elijah/Baptist theory we've been dragging.

Elijah was a person, not an office. How can he be referred to as THE Elijah, like THE Messiah or THE Prophet? Elijah's a person's name, like Moses or Jesus. They asked John if he was Moses or Elijah(individuals) or THE prophet. Those are personal names of historical people and they
wanted to know if one of them had returned, for clearly in John was a powerful spirit and they knew people reincarnated. One can't mistake their meaning or the context, I don't think.

I don't know if the Baal story is a myth but it doesn't seem likely. Perhaps events were exaggerated but Elijah was a real person and formidable as Israel's prophet for a reason. The farther you get from Genesis the more historically accurate recorded events tend to get.  Something happened between him and the prophets of Baal and I'm willing to bet they were executed, even if they may not be up to the 450 on record.

There's no way God sends anyone to kill. NEVER EVER EVER. If Elijah killed people because they worshipped Baal, unseen and unchangeable laws automatically compel him to pay the debt, to reap what he'd sown, to correct the imbalance he'd created. Pay for his crime he must. Like poor Jepthah, victim of his times. He promised to sacrifice the first person he sees on his return home if he wins the war. As if God sanctions killing, much less take sides in war. There was a fifty-fifty chance he would win the war. He wins and bizarre irony, his daughter is the first person he sees. He now starts tearing his clothes. If it had been someone else apart from his daughter, wouldn't that person have been another man's child?

He'd prayed to a god he'd created in his mind who accepts burning a child as payment for letting you kill many people. And Jepthah fulfilled his word by burning his child for this imaginary god. If he'd left the girl alone nothing would have happened. It was all in his head. But he has free will and God does not interfere with our choices. How else can we be judged for them? We're free to inflict our choices on others, our thoughts
and actions creating future possibilities moment by moment. Jepthah kills his child and there's no guarantee her blood won't be required of him.

Look at King David. He killed Uriah the Hittite and took his wife. In his case, he was ACTUALLY TOLD the price he would pay for his transgression. Very unusual. Normally, stuff just happen and people cannot connect the effect with the cause. David's payment? His household never knew peace after the murder. The child he conceived with Bathsheba would die. One of his children would r.ape his sister. Another would murder his brother because of that. His favourite son would revolt against him. His son would sleep with his father's wives openly, in front of all Israel.  No amount of pleading and praying and fasting changed the outcome. Christ had not yet come and he had to pay his debt himself.  So will anyone who kills, including Eljah/ John the Baptist.

The Hindus call it karma. Christians call it the Law of sowing and reaping. It's absolutely real  and absolutely true. It's inflexible and yields only to Christ, and that's only if you let Him take over. He knows better than you anyway so you might as well let him. Otherwise you pay your own debt, you pay for your own sins yourself. There IS justice in the universe. Like attracts like, unlike repels unlike. Good attracts good, evil attracts the same. That is all heaven and hell is. Heaven is the presence of God. It's heaven merely because He's there. Hell is where evil spirits are and which they have created merely by being what they are. It's an infinitely complex place, with a staggering diversity of experience to offer. Your spirit's either attracted to God's when you die, or repelled by it, depending on the choices you've made when you were biologically alive. The earth is a testing ground for many of us, and our choices will determine our fate when we die, revert to our spirit form, stop inhabiting time, and are in eternity.

Christ tells you of this in Matthew 6: 19-21
"Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through. But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt"

@ MadMax

Interesting though, you dont have time to show how Paul's gospel differs from Jesus.

Noetic
Stop badgering m_nwankwo lol. He knows what he's doing. I told you the doctrinal differences between Paul and Christ/God will take some time to put together. So will the events in Early Church history. It's a lot. You can save me time and effort by researching these things yourself. There are countless books and research findings.Not from those with hidden agendas and something to prove, but from the many impartial scholars in different places and times who state their facts and have no ax to grind.

noetic17:

U come across as calm and informed. So I'd like to ask you, why did u reject Jesus gift of salvation?

Hi Noetic. Thanks for your question. No, I did not reject Jesus gift of salvation. What I rejected is the notion that the gift of salvation is his death on the cross and that the blood shed by that death is what cleanses sin. My conviction is that the death of Jesus, the son of God is a dastardly murder, a sacrilege committed against God. Thus I do not accept that murder of the physical body of the son of God and blood shed by such a murder will bring redemption. God the Father sent his unsubstantiate divine son, Jesus Christ to save us from our sins by bringing the Truth in his holy words. Mankind particularly the religious leaders at that time vehemently opposed the son of God and his words and sealed their enmity against God by murdering his holy son. Now, that this mankind even went far to elevate this sacrilegious crime to redemption and salvation is even more sacrilegious. Whenever people bring the alibi that something is the will of God, the question is, is it really the will of God or is it the will of men claiming that is the will of God. The answer to this is quite simple. Nothing that comes from God will ever contradict Love, Justice and Purity as these things in there absolute nature is in God. Although people can argue to and fro what love is or is not, what justice is or is not, what purity is or is not, every normal human being in sober moments do recognize with clarity what these things are. Thus God does not use evil either as a means to an end or an end in itself. Evil is absolutely alien to God and God is incapable of evil

Most people including those that share your view of gift of salvation do accept that the betrayal by Judas is evil, the conspiracy by the priests against Jesus is evil, the hatred by the masses against Jesus is evil, the physical torture of the physical body of Jesus is evil and that his death on the cross is murder and yet they also say that it is the will of God. How can betrayal be the will of God? How can hatred be the will of God? How can physical torture be the will of God? How can murder or the blood shed by murder be the will of God? Jesus himself have clearly given a damning verdict on this when in agony he saw the terrible consequences that will befall those who had the effrontery to lay their hands on the innocent holy son of God, love which he is welled up in him and he cried with a loud voice "Father forgive them for they know not what they do". How can God the son be asking for forgiveness for those who murdered him if the murder is the will of God.

When it is claimed that a physical blood of the son of God is redemption or will bring redemption, then one has to explain why a physical blood should have divine powers. To ascribe divine attributes to a physical object including the flesh and blood of Jesus is idolatry. The physical body of Jesus is not God, it is simply a physical cloak used by son of God (Jesus) to experience in the earthly plane. The physical body of Jesus was picked on earth in the womb of Mary and after Jesus death was discarded on earth again. Physical flesh and blood cannot even enter the ethereal plane, much less the kingdom of God and not to talk of being a part of the unsubstantiate divine essence of God. How then can a physical blood bring salvation and subsequent resurrection into the spiritual kingdom of God?

But what then is the true mission of Jesus, the son of God? Mankind was in sin, the power of the darkness has become so strong that any ray of light cannot penetrate the darkness. The power of anything created including prophets, called ones were insufficient to dispel the darkness. Here and there some few human beings were beseeching God for help. Out of love for these very few who in the mist of the suffocating darkness clug to faith in God, God the Father intervened by sending a part of Himself and incarnated it in a male child, Jesus Christ. Jesus thus is God in flesh and being God he can transmit Truth, Light and Life for these are inherent attributes of God. Even before Jesus descended from the unsubstantiated realm of God, God the Father and his son Jesus knew that since Jesus is sheep being sent to wolfs (human beings), it is likely that the wolf will attack and kill the sheep. Thus, thousands of years even before Jesus descended into material creation and finally the earth, this likely hood of him being murdered came as prophecies in many cultures including the Jews. The prophecies are simply a revelation of what will happen if the wolfs remain wolf but more importantly, it was meant to admonish the wolfs to change there ways and welcome the sheep as there Savior and redeemer. Jesus thus knew of the dangers that await him because a majority of human kind are following the darkness but in-spite of this personal danger to Himself, he still embarked on the mission out of love for God the Father and out of Love for humankind.

Jesus thus decended into material creation and then the earth where the luciferian principle held swell. He brought to earth the truth and life in his holy words. Those who wished to serve God, he gave them the power to overcome sin and become a child of God. Through the accompanying miracles many men were awoken from their spiritual slumber and the dark casing around their spirits were shattered by the holy words of Jesus which carries life, truth and power. Darkness rebelled against this mission of love and since it can not get hold on Jesus himself, it made use of human tools , among them are his own disciple Judas and the religious leaders at that time. Jesus was thus murdered not because it is the will of God but because his mission of redemption vanquished the darkness (Lucifer) and his human followers. Jesus was murdered because of the hatred of all that is dark against the LIGHT. Thus the murder of Jesus is due to the evil volitions of men under the prompting of Lucifer who is the darkness.  Jesus did not run away from physical death but faced it as a seal of his conviction in his mission of redemtion and that he is the son of God.

Just like a loving father will jump into the burning house to safe his wife and kids, so did the son of God decend into the darkness to save me and you from our sins. In this crude analogy it is correct to say that the father knew that he might die in the process of saving his family, it is also correct to say that prior to the father entering the inferno experienced fire fighters were aware of the likelyhood that he will die in the inferno and have given this information to bystanders. It is also correct to say that the father entered the fire to save his family. It is correct to say that he successfully rescued his family but died in the process. But it is absolutely wrong to say that he entered the fire to die and that his death in the inferno is what rescued his family.

Salvation lies in the words of Jesus, not on his death or blood shed during his death. God does not use human sacrifice and to think of Almighty God capable of using a ritual that is prevalent only in satanic cults to redeeem his creatures contradicts all that is in God- love, purity, justice and this triad is the basis for the perfection of God. What a man sows, he shall reap and not even God (Jesus) can annul it because he carries the living law in himself. Thus it is impossible for God to annul himself. What God did is to give humanity the detergent to was their cloths (sins). The detergent is his holy words and this holy words have all that is required for our redemption and salvation. Jesus is inseparable from his words. Thus one can say that he who have absorbed the words of Jesus have also absorbed Jesus. In his teaching Jesus Jesus central message is to love God with all your being and love your neighbour as yourself. He who adjusts his life accordingly will be permitted a resurrection out of the world of matter to the kingdom of God where there is life and light. Thus the words of Jesus will be fufilled " I am the way, the truth and the life and no body comes to the Father except through me"

Thus, you will see that there is a version of the life and mission of the son of God presented in the bible which you believe in and there is a version of the life and mission of the son of God presented in the Grail Message. I am absolutely convinced that the explanations of the life and mission of Jesus Christ as presented in the Grail Message is the Truth. But then other people hold the one that is presented in the bible as true. I came across the Grail Message outside this material plane but that experience is personal and I will not reveal it here. I have made my own decision, and each person should decide for himself what is the Truth in this matter.  As always stay blessed.

do u believe in hell?

Hi again Noetic. I just saw the question on hell. Yes I know that hell exists but it was not created by God but it came into being as a result of the evil volition's of men. Thus hell is not a divine institution but the work of man. Read again my explanation about how humans use the power of God to "create" forms and you may decipher how hell came into existence. If however it is not clear, I will find time to give a detailed explanation. Stay blessed

Jeez. These long posts are giving me vertigo. I'll come back abeg. Chai!

I really fancy the dept of knowledge and decorum in display here, but one thing I must make clear is that too much energy spent trying to explain God can only be fruitless in the end. God can only be revealed to those that seek diligently seek Him in faith. He can only be revealed and not explained by the too much reasoning and learning of man. Anytime anything designed by God is compromised, the devil hijacks it and wreaks mischief with it. How can one authoritatively say people reincarnate? It still beats my imagination.

I really fancy the dept of knowledge and decorum in display here, but one thing I must make clear is that too much energy spent trying to explain God can only be fruitless in the end. God can only be revealed to those that diligently seek Him in faith. He can only be revealed and not explained by the too much reasoning and learning of man. Anytime anything designed by God is compromised, the devil hijacks it and wreaks mischief with it. How can one authoritatively say people reincarnate? It still beats my imagination.

I really fancy the dept of knowledge and decorum in display here, but one thing I must make clear is that too much energy spent trying to explain God can only be fruitless in the end. God can only be revealed to those that diligently seek Him in faith. He can only be revealed and not explained by the too much reasoning and learning of man. Anytime anything designed by God is compromised, the devil hijacks it and wreaks mischief with it. How can one authoritatively say people reincarnate? It still beats my imagination.

The dude asking about early church history should do a little research. It amazes me the amount of information at our disposal and some people will just refuse to seek it.

Personally, I fear to speak my views on Christianity cuz many people see it as some kinda attack. It is comforting to see some people making sense for I'd started to wonder if there's something I'm missing. People tell me to accept things on faith. Bull. God gave me brains that only realises that two plus two gives four. I cannot accept that it makes five. If indeed it makes five, I cannot be held accountable for rejecting this. I'm saying a lot in code speak cuz I don't wanna be branded as anything.

That said, Max and m_nwankwo, as fascinating as most of your submissions are, you guys have a disconcerting way of stating conjecture as if it were fact. Also, sometimes when you reject a certain thing previously thought to be true, it upsets the whole equation and something else you still you still assert as truth becomes mutually exclusive. Instances of this are too numerous. I think you guys are weaving a fascinating but complex web and are getting caught in it. You guys should please delineate your conjectures from provable fact and things ONLY you believe but cannot prove. Frankly, I'm getting awfully confused. This is why I love C. S. Lewis. He seems to go out of his way to inform you that he doesn't really know what he's talking about. It's most endearing.

A few questions to Mr. Nwankwo and MadMax. Anyone who can answer may and I'll be much obliged.

From Max, I gather that one's soul is essentially either evil or good. Good souls also do evil and they pay for it in this life or reincarnate to pay for it or it may simply let Jesus do the paying. Three options. Evil souls just drift away to some realm where they can hobnob with there own kind and God does not look upon them. Does it mean that as long as one is inherently good, no matter one's belief or lack thereof, one will encounter God's presence when one dies? What defines a good or evil soul? Its actions or its inherent nature? Btw, I don't subscribe to the belief that man is inherently evil. I believe man is so much evil and is also so much good. If not we wouldn't be able to tell the difference. This leads me to ask, do we then choose which side we wanna be on? Good or evil?

About reincarnation, I gather it happens mainly for someone to pay off a debt or to complete a mission. I don't buy the mission thingie at all but it'll be too lengthy to go into that. Let me talk about karma then. Why does it seem like the universe is only concerned with punishing evil and never concerned with rewarding good? Doesn't the universe care about the innocent who was wronged? Does Karma have no flip side? Also mathematically the punishment of someone can only be brought about by someone else doing evil (John's beheading was evil done by the ruler) and the evil-doer will pay by someone else's hand and so on and so forth. It seems like an eternal domino effect to me.

Mr. Nwankwo. I really loved the angle of Jesus' death not being salvation per se but his coming at all. In other words, salvation came immediately he came to this world. That would explain somewhere where he told some dude that this very day salvation has come to you or was it his household. Personally I think his death was elevated to that level of importance simply because he supposedly resurrected from the dead. What was the point of this resurrection if it happened? Plus it appears every single one of the gospel writers believed Jesus' demise on the cross was the sole purpose of his coming. Why do you have a different view?

Why did Jesus let himself be killed and if that were not the plan, what was? Did he intend to frolic with us till he died of old age or what? Plus, God must certainly have a taste for drama for it appears to me he made things infinitely worse since in incarnation. Nothing but zealots and well meaning white liars and dogmatic fools and outright truth manipulators since then if you ask me.

It is the most conspicuous thing that Jesus never called himself the Son of God once. Is it possible that he is too humble to state what he is or is it possible that he simply is not that?

You guys seem never to talk of the other entity, the holy spirit. What is that one about?

The end of the world will occur. This is a fact foreign to any religious doctrine. If one crazy asteroid doesn't hit us, we'll blow ourselves to extinction or after billions of years we'll either fall out of orbit and spiral towards the sun or the sun itself will become a supernova and finito. But will God get tired of this little experiment and kill us all? Or won't He ever?

I personally believe that God exists independent of time. That fourth dimension cannot restrain Him. In other words He exists yesterday, today and tomorrow simultaneously. I think it was Max who said once that He doesn't know the future cuz there's no such thing and He only knows every possible outcome of all actions. Chai! God must have some mean super computers. So which is it? Does God know the future or not?

I am consumed by consternation and there are very little answers. In my opinion there is terribly very little one can be sure of. And this segues into my last question. Is unbelief a crime? Will God take me up on saying, 'Hey Lord, the waters are so muddied that it's impossible to acknowledge your existence.' Does unbelief make me a bad person and unworthy of God's presence?

Mad_Max:

Noetic
Stop badgering m_nwankwo lol. He knows what he's doing. I told you the doctrinal differences between Paul and Christ/God will take some time to put together. So will the events in Early Church history. It's a lot. You can save me time and effort by researching these things yourself. There are countless books and research findings.Not from those with hidden agendas and something to prove, but from the many impartial scholars in different places and times who state their facts and have no ax to grind.

I was interested in ur "analysis" because u made a bold but FALSE assertion . . . .all u had to do was to prove it and see what holes would be picked up in it. The bible is there for anyone to read.

@ M_nwankwo

Your case of salvation is quite interesting and funny. But since u do not subscribe to the bible, there is no way we could straighten this out, as it would amount to dogma from both sides. but FYI Jesus stated on no less than 20 occasions in the gospel that He would die and be resurrected. . , . .otherwise let me ask you . . , how then was His mission supposed to end here on earth?

vescucci:

The dude asking about early church history should do a little research. It amazes me the amount of information at our disposal and some people will just refuse to seek it.

Please do shut up and get a life. IF u believe (as a result of ur research) that Paul has a different gospel to Jesus. why not present ur case?

Ah, Noetic. Sorry o. Didn't mean to be a SOB. Enter google and input Council of Nicea + Emperor Constantine and you should get plenty of material. You'll find folks writing both for and against (what exactly I don't know) but the ones that are impartial are the best bet for accuracy. Also I wasn't even trying to make a case about whether or not Jesus' and Paul's teachings dovetail. That's Max agenda. Mine was to get you to read more about how the bible came about and why I know it contains some truths and many other stuff (outright lies, white lies, allegories, illustrations, myths and legends, exaggerations, half-truths, history and some quite frankly unnecessary information) besides. My problem is how can I know which is which. So read up cuz it is a whole lot and Max cannot possibly summarize it as I remember there being six different councils where the members busied themselves shortlisting 66 books out of the thousands already in circulation and calling their collection the bible and destroying everything else.

@ M_nwankwo

Your case of salvation is quite interesting and funny. But since u do not subscribe to the bible, there is no way we could straighten this out, as it would amount to dogma from both sides. but FYI Jesus stated on no less than 20 occasions in the gospel that He would die and be resurrected. . ,  . .otherwise let me ask you . . , how then was His mission supposed to end here on earth?

Hi Noetic. As I stated in my previous post the mission of Jesus is to bring the Truth and Jesus accomplished this by his holy words as well by his presence in creation including the earth. Yes, Jesus talked about his death and resurrection but he never thought that his death on the cross is redemption. Had Jesus not been murdered at the prime of his youth, he would have lived to a very ripe old age, die naturally and resurrect. Thus whether Jesus died at 33 or 120 years, he would still have resurrected. Resurrection is simply the separation of the spirit from the body and ascent of the spirit into the luminous kingdom of God. In case of Jesus, it was the separation of his bodies from his being which is God and subsequent ascent beyond creation and into God, the father. Jesus wore several bodies, the last of which is the physical body. At his physical death, he lost the physical body as well as the astral body and his outermost covering at the time his followers saw him is the ethereal body, a body often but mistakenly refereed as the resurrection body. In other not to enlarge the picture, I will not go beyond the ethereal body. Thus what the followers saw is the ethereal body of Jesus and they were able to see, feel and torch this body because they themselves also have this ethereal body telescoped into their physical bodies.

Jesus appeared to his followers to show them that the spirit survives physical death and that life continues beyond the physical. Jesus mediated the power that opened the ethereal bodies of his followers permitting them to experience consciously the ethereal world with the organs of the ethereal body. Thus they were able to see, hear, torch and feel the risen messiah. Just like you can clearly recognize physical things with physical organs, so is it that you can recognize and experience ethereal things with ethereal organs. Even today, if your ethereal organs are opened, you can see and interact with people who have died and yet your friends or family will not see anything. I have been permitted to have several experiences of such and so do others irrespective of there religious persuasions. In all cultures, there are authentic stories of a wife seeing the departed husband and think it is the physical husband only to informed that the husband died in a car crash at around 10.00AM in the morning and yet the wife saw the husband by 5.00pm the same day. What she has seen is the husband in an ethereal body but believes that it is the husband in flesh and blood. The realization that what she saw is the departed husband dawns on her when the husband coffin is brought back with a death certificate showing that the husband died at 10.00am in the morning. But since Jesus is a son of God, his ethereal body unlike that of human beings is animated by the unsubstantiate divine essence that is God, thus the ethereal body of Jesus is very luminous. It was the ethereal body of Jesus that was uncovered during the transfiguration. I got to stop here for now. As always stay blessed.

Fascinating stuff as usual. Especially the part about the transfiguration but I still get the feeling that you're trying to find a hand that fits the glove instead of finding a glove that fits the hand, if you catch my drift. Meanwhile, I'd appreciate answers to those questions that puzzle me, if you please. I would sleep better understanding some stuff.

vescucci:

Fascinating stuff as usual. Especially the part about the transfiguration but I still get the feeling that you're trying to find a hand that fits the glove instead of finding a glove that fits the hand, if you catch my drift. Meanwhile, I'd appreciate answers to those questions that puzzle me, if you please. I would sleep better understanding some stuff.

Hi Vescussi. Thanks for your comment. I saw your questions but I am not inwardly moved to answer them. Stay blessed.

Lol. I like you more now. Rarely do people just say their mind nowadays. Alright, Mr. Nwankwo, thanks anyway.

@m.mwankwo

Which Technique did You use to activate Your Ethereal organs and which is the most Effective Technique?

When using The Ethereal Organs, can You perceive Ethereal, Causal, Mental, Astral, physical beings/worlds all Together or You can Only perceive Ethereal beings/worlds alone?

Why cant i see my Guardian Angels in my Out of Body Experiences (Astral Projection/Soul Travel) even Though i invite/summon them, i would not see them?

And How can someone read the Akashic Records without Astral Projecting?

I am sorry if i am off Topic. Please pardon me!

Thank You

vescucci:

Ah, Noetic. Sorry o. Didn't mean to be a SOB. Enter google and input Council of Nicea + Emperor Constantine and you should get plenty of material. You'll find folks writing both for and against (what exactly I don't know) but the ones that are impartial are the best bet for accuracy. Also I wasn't even trying to make a case about whether or not Jesus' and Paul's teachings dovetail. That's Max agenda. Mine was to get you to read more about how the bible came about and why I know it contains some truths and many other stuff (outright lies, white lies, allegories, illustrations, myths and legends, exaggerations, half-truths, history and some quite frankly unnecessary information) besides. My problem is how can I know which is which. So read up cuz it is a whole lot and Max cannot possibly summarize it as I remember there being six different councils where the members busied themselves shortlisting 66 books out of the thousands already in circulation and calling their collection the bible and destroying everything else.

On the contrary, I was not asking for information from u or MadMax about early church history, but if u had read MadMax post she asserted that the gospels of Paul and Jesus are different (that was her own independent opinion) and all I did was ask her to construct her case by producing analyses to support such claim. . . .because there is absolutely no difference between their messages as far as I am concerned.

It is important dudes dont just make assertions and run away, hence they misinform other neutral readers. I was hoping MadMax would back up her claims.

TV01:

Hi All, sorry I'm late. May I beg your leave to join the convo? Thank you kindly .

First, I'd like to say this is such a well mannered thread and interesting, and I'd like to applaud all the discussants. I've all but swooned at the cast and of course the submissions, revealing as it were the earnestness of some of the seekers here. I'll try and post in the same vein and not let the more "unascended" parts of my nature get a look in. Although I may well be tested if any of our resident fantasists, demagogues or cross-dressers make an appearance.

PastorAIO hadn’t seen nothing and he was talking, in another thread, about the highly enriched prose in this section!

@m_nwankwo
Clear explanation of Jesus’ mission. It's simply wrong that men should ascribe such infamy to God! I think there are a lot of pointers in the Bible to this fact as well, even though the ritual sacrifice doctrine is also written therein.

@vessucci
Thanks for your contributions to this thread and for your maturity. From your number of posts I expect you are used to incivility on this forum. I hope you get answers to your question on being unable to come to recognition in the face of the muddied water. But if it’s any help, m_nwankwo has said in the past that God will lead any genuine seeker to a path that will help bring him to recognition. I find that explicit enough, but whether it finds earth with you is another matter.

@ M-Nwankwo

Thanks for ur response.

I am taking a cautious approach in replying u, but can u take a second look at the following.

1. Jesus actually affirmed to the world that unless they drink His blood and eat His flesh they CANNOT be saved. (John 6:53)

2. The only thing that Jesus commanded that should be done in remembrance of Him is the holy communion (Luke 22:19)

3. Jesus affirms that His blood ensures the remission of sins. (Matthew 26:28 )

4. Jesus asserted in more than 5 places in the gospels that His death and resurrection brings Him glory. He rebuked Peter who did not want Him to die. He also prayed that He be glorified at death in His last prayer recorded in the book of John.

5. Jesus boldly asserted that He is the one who has laid down His life and He can also take it back (John 10:17-18)

6. Jesus says that the Father LOVES Him because HE (Jesus) agreed to lay down His life (John 10:17)

---

It is ontologically impossible for Jesus to have been killed without the knowledge of God or by accident (like u proscribed). . . . .unless of course we are talking about 2 different Jesus here. This is because God is supposed to be omni-potent and omni-scient.
Have u ever considered the possibility that ur belief in a non-biblical Jesus might be wrong and may cost u eternity?

sounds convincing! but by what means can one ascertain the truth in reincarnation, internal feelings? is simply providing hope and comfort for death?