The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance - Religion (6) - Nairaland
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| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by MadMax1(f): 6:14pm On Jul 23, 2010 |
Lol. Did you like George's NDE so much cos he says God is both light and darkness? Darkness, not evil. They're two different things. He created darkness and light. We get darkness when the moon comes between our planet and the sun. Outer space is full of dark, empty void. It is also full of light. And He made it all. But He didn't create evil and it isn't a part of Him and any spirit with that quality cannot be attracted to Him after death, but to others of similar quality- evil beings like himself. There was an interesting answer to why there are so many diverse experiences when people die. The answer wasn't in response to NDEs at all, but it answered it. It makes one marvel at how much God loves us individually. Here's the thing in a nutshell: When people die, they find themselves in a different realm from anything they've ever known. It bears no resemblance whatsoever to the life they've left behind. It's bad enough they're dead, and so the new experience may be terrifying. A welcoming point is generated for them, a scenario that will calm them and get them accustomed to the strangeness. So everything familiar to them is thrown in to make them comfortable and ease the transition from the life they left behind to the new and bizarre one: familiar cultural or religious motifs, meadows and music, a house that looks like the one they grew up in or were happiest in when they got married, loved ones that are dead, a beloved pet, their own thoughts and desires are put to work. Each welcoming point is designed for just that individual, unless he died with other people, in which case they may share welcoming points. That's just for everyday people. For evil people, it's different. Their spirits are not attracted to God's, and so their welcoming points and afterlife experiences are at the mercy of evil beings in opposition to God, and of their own evil as well. Nevertheless God is near and they are not abandoned. I read somewhere that occasionally an evil person may be in such intense and horrifying suffering for so long that a drastic measure is taken to end it. A universe may be birthed and run down, and he would still be in indescribable suffering, brought on by himself and his own choices. After all avenues to get him to call to God for help has been exhausted, every effort to open his eyes has failed, all hopes to get him to choose is lost, such a spirit is annihilated to end his suffering. He simply ceases to exist forevermore. That's the powerful and terrible thing about freewill. It is permanent and you cannot be coerced into anything, not even into choosing God. You're free to choose evil, good, kindness, cruelty, murder, hate, whatever you want. It isn't child's play. That may be why Christ said in Matthew 6, to store up treasures in heaven where it counts and not on earth. Money is good and life is meant to be enjoyed. But earthly things have no inherent value and we leave it all behind when we die. A life spent solely in the pursuit of power and goods and money, to be held temporarily and then released at death, is a wasted and tragic life. Storm asked Christ a question about people who kill and do evil in His name. You know what He said? That they would be very sorry they had done that. You can't be stopped from doing anything you want to do: rob, kill, cheat, lie or defraud in the name of God or Christ. You have free will. You can do absolutely anything you want and no one will stop you. But the thing these people don't see while they're alive in the flesh is this: There will be consequences. Will get off NDEs and post those questions in a few days. |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by DeepSight(m): 1:06pm On Jul 24, 2010 |
Darkness, not evil. They're two different things. He created darkness and light. We get darkness when the moon comes between our planet and the sun. Outer space is full of dark, empty void. It is also full of light. And He made it all. That's a great write up you have up there and it really touched a chord within me. Nevertheless I still can't shake off my discomfort at the overly physical perception that you tend to associate with darkness. I think that darkness in the context of this discussion is not something to be related to the seeming physical darkness that one may observe in parts of the physical universe. |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by MadMax1(f): 10:02am On Jul 25, 2010 |
removed |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by MadMax1(f): 10:33am On Jul 25, 2010 |
remvd |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by MyJoe: 6:44pm On Aug 02, 2010 |
Mad_Max: Why naah? Such excellent treatises. A good thing I have them.  |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by MadMax1(f): 8:11pm On Aug 02, 2010 |
Lol. Really sorry. I just thought it too long and beyond the scope of the observation. |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by 49cents(m): 8:54pm On Aug 02, 2010 |
I simply amazed by the posts of this thread, every poster has been very insightful, yet i feel quite sure that the end of this manner of thought is the disbelief stemming from confusion. The poster "explained" how Catholics will see the Blessed Vigin Mary, including the others with their various religiuos orientations, this is plain presumptions which we believe because it makes the most sense to our quest to find a comfort zone of belief. The spiritual, unlike the physical that can be mastered by scientific observation (even not thoroughly) is impossible to safely comprehended, how on earth did we think we can reconcile everything in the finite mind we were given by the infinite God. This is the basic premise for any search for truth, There are many things that are illogical eg the human nature a composite of the physical and immaterial soul, we accept not because we know how they are possible but it is an event before us, let us build our knowledge from the little facts around us before delving into things that we cant sincerely say we have seen all at once. |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by vescucci(m): 10:50pm On Aug 02, 2010 |
Grr, now I'm as curious as hell!  |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by MadMax1(f): 2:35am On Aug 03, 2010 |
Hey there 49. I don't think I mentioned 'the Virgin Mary' once as a religious persona. Mary is a human being like anybody else. I'm aware she's practically worshipped in Catholism; interesting you should believe a dead Catholic, who's a Christian, should see 'the Virgin Mary' instead of Christ. But each to his own. I take it you don't like people venturing explanations for things beyond the physical. Ir's beyond our finite mind. It apparently wasn't beyond the finite minds of the millions of people vouchsafed these experiences though. We have brains and spirits, and I don't think we would have been issued both if they were useless to our understanding. We cannot comprehend it all, but we can comprehend a little and knock heads together and see what emerges. You're right that God is infinitely complex and beyond us, as we are. But I'm not sure I agree with an attitude that wants people to fold their hands and not seek to understand how the spiritual works because 'God is infinite'. It's not a stance that works for everybody, but you're certainly welcome to it. We shouldn't all believe or think alike. But I retreated to a thread of people who share a high similarity in thought for a reason.  |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by MyJoe: 2:09pm On Aug 03, 2010 |
Mad_Max:Certainly not too long. All the issues you touched on are profoundly relevant. 49cents: The objective of my enquiry as set out in OP was to try to find out whether in the light of diametrically opposed nature of the contents of revelations, they can be trusted to guide us; why apparently sincerely people see different things even though these revelations are all thought to be from God; and to ask spiritual people to explain why they have been confusing us. This is an important matter because I know people who became Christians after someone "died" and came back and told them of their tour of hellfire. There are people who are convinced of the rightness of Catholicism because Mary regularly reveals things to them. If you can read previous pages you will see that a lot of light has been thrown into this matter. On the worthwhileness of seeking insights into infinite spiritual matters with our finite minds, I have nothing to add to what Mad_Max has written, even while agreeing with you that we cannot reconcile "everything". |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by MadMax1(f): 7:47am On Aug 04, 2010 |
Could be because it doesn't jell with what he's been taught in Sunday School. Different Christian deniminations believe different things happen after you die. Jehovah's Witnesses believe, based on Ecclesiates (which are just the thoughts of Solomon, who has never died himself and so can't say for sure) that when you die your consciousness ends. If you've played nice you wake up after Judgement with a new physical body on this planet, which would be turned into an Eden. You live on this planet forever. Isn't the lack of imagination dreadful? Catholics believe in a purgatory, from which prayer from people on earth can spring you. They were selling these prayers to the relatives of the dead as indulgences in the Middle Ages. You pay to have the Church release your loved one from hell. I think other denominations believe people 'sleep', and wake up to a Judgement Day. If you have said a verbal prayer asking 'Jesus to be your lord and savior', you go to heaven. What you do doesn't matter as long as you've said this prayer, engage in a lot of religious ritual and come in once or twice to tell God you've been bad. If you were born into a different religion and culture and did not manage to say this verbal prayer, you are kicked into hellfire forevermore. Your 'eternity' is determined by the petty things you spend a paltry 10, 15, 20, 40, 50, 80 years of earthly life doing. That crude and thoughtless absurdity doesn't need comment. The mental torment you issue people whose loved ones have died without saying a verbal prayer, who believe those they love are burning forever in hellfire, is unimaginably cruel, and hideously more so because it's such a lie. Such Christians never think but are content to believe whatever they have been told to believe, as if how long and deeply you believe a lie can somehow make it true. In this scenario they who happened to be born into Christianity are heaven-bound. They thank their stars for their luck (and unconsciously suspect they were born into Christianity because they are 'special' or 'chosen') and feel sorry for all those people, the 90 to 99% of humanity not in their denomination. Naturally it is only their brand of Christianity that is correct, all other brands are hellbound too. Modern Christianity, specially its fundamentalist version, has to be by far the worst religion on this planet. So smug and unreasoning and complacent and paranoid, full of its own man-made virtue. This is not what Christ taught, it's not what the early years of genunine Christianity, where there was no bible, was about. Christians did not have a bible because they did not need a bible. They had the truth. They had Christ. They had power. It wasn't even called Christianity. I don't mind the bible because original Christianity has long been lost and it gives a few helpful pointers, and it helped to break the evil and tyranny the Roman Catholic Church had sunk to, but there is nothing holy or infallible about it. It is the word of men, a human creation. It has created all sorts of little Christianities based on which parts its founder likes. Truth and untruth co-mingle in it, side by side, endlessly tampered with to further religious and political agendas in antiquity. God 'inspired' the writers, and yet He managed to not 'inspire' anything beyond the knowledge of the writers themselves. Why didn't He dictate the cure for caner or the plague, or make them write a list of all the natural disasters that would happen and where, so people can skeddadle when the time comes? Why isn't there anything they didn't understand at the time issued them by 'inspiration' to them, so they wouldn't know what they were writing but future generations would decode it? Even if they weren't told arcana as God isn't obligated to do things the way we think He should, why is their 'inspiration' so banal and boringly human, so entrenched in the values and agendas and ignorance of those times? All you need to do to know the Bible is man-made is to read it. The OT is especially guilty. The only places I find things beyond its time are in some of the words of Christ, and they are always spiritual things, and you marvel at what He was telling them. But we know even those records were tampered with. When people decide to take the reports of human beings as the word of God because they have been told to, nothing good can result.Is it any wonder Christianity now is not what Christ taught or the apostles and early Church practised? Is it any wonder the spiritual world is being shown to millions of people and it bears no resemblance whatsoever to the man-made dogma in modern Christianity? Catholism removed its doctrine of 'limbo' only a few years ago. This is a doctrine that has been there for centuries and millions have to gone to their graves believing in. They sit there believing in a Judgement Day for humanity, as if time exists anywhere else but here. Your judgement day is the day you die. Look at the measures and scales God works with. This visible part of our universe is 900 billion trillion miles across. That's less than 20 zeros. The unseen part, the meta or entire universe, is so large there are no human words for the number, because it would be written with millions of zeros. And our universe isn't the only one. There are creations even larger, even grander, made of things we have never seen and cannot imagine. And this is the God they have pitifully reduced to their own human stature, and assign the daft thoughts and words and works of human hands. 'He will recreate the earth and we will live here forever'. 'He will send you to an eternity in hellfire if you don't believe as I do'. Dogma is so easy, finding the truth is too much work. Easier to sit on your lazy, daft, spiritually irresponsible behind and be spoonfed nonsense for the rest of your life. Allow me to be God for five minutes and see if I won't destroy humanity, myself included, and put the dolphins in charge. Animals do their Maker greater credit than we. Thank God that God is God, because the impossibly tiny bits of truth about this world and beyond is truly grand and worthy of Him. |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by mnwankwo(m): 9:59am On Aug 04, 2010 |
@Mad_Max How are you? Your posts are interesting but it may be be helpful if you are a bit sympathetic to those who call themselves "christians". Most human beings are really good. What is lacking in these good people is that they lack the experiences that will make their inner goodness manifest outwardly such that the innerbeing (the spirit) penatrates and controls all non-spiritual clocks of man including the physical body. But only God can give each human being the necessary experience that will transform one from a religionist to a born again child of God. All we as human beings can do is to pray that the will of God comes to life in us and in our fellow men. Each one provided he is honest will sooner or later come to the personal recognition of the Truth. In the course of three years that I have come to know you in this forum, one does not need to be a seer to sense that you have undergone a tremendous transformation. But the spiritual progress that you have made is not because of what anybody told you or preached to you but because you were genuinely seeking and the grace of God permitted you some experiences which brought you closer to the Truth. You may recall that some of the things you accept now, you rejected in its entirety just a year and half ago. I recall that I had several discussions with you on evolution, reincarnation, etc , which at that time you did not accept them. Now you believe in reincarnation, evolution, not because of whatever I or anybody else said but because your spirit was granted the grace of God to percieve to some extent these realities. The point I am trying to put across is that every genuine seeker will sooner or later come to the recognition of Truth for the omnipotence of God will lead such a one to the Truth when he is ready for it. But when people are not ready for the Truth, then they will not recognise it even if it is shown to them. Thus we need not despair of the world and what is happening with human beings for not a single soul will be lost except if such a soul stubbonly decides to be lost. The omniscience of God will save any soul that has the desire to be saved either here on earth or in the other non-physical realms of God. The son of God Jesus promised that the will of God will be done on earth as it is in heaven and that promise or rather prophecy will come to fufilment sooner than most believers imagine. Stay blessed. |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by MadMax1(f): 10:46am On Aug 04, 2010 |
Mr Nwankwo, how are you? You know you're right, of course. And there are other things apart from reincarnation. I'd come across reincarnation before and only believed it this year because the evidence was solid. It was taught in the biblical scrolls until some overzealous priests decided it was best if such things were removed. So they removed it and substituted invented doctrines of their own. But if you search the NT it's there, if you know what you're searching for. Reincarnation,as Christ taught it, is not the Buddhist or popular idea of reincarnation. It doesn't happen automatically, and is a little complicated, because there are other worlds in this universe than this one you can have a biological life in. When you're born there you won't remember a planet called 'earth'; your reality will be different. You might even be there wondering if there is any intelligent life in the universe apart from your planet, just as we who are here now wonder the same. It's not the common idea of reincarnation at all, in that there's an incredible range of possibilites, because the works of God's hand are so vast and numerous. And not everyone reincarnates. They may decide to stay as non-physical beings, having had enough of biological life. To be honest, for me, it's never been a matter of not being ready for the truth, but how solid the evidence is. It simply isn't enough for anyone to tell me 'This is so'. I have to investigate and come to my own conclusions. When the evidence is in and it's corroborated, I simply change my mind. The problem isn't that Christians believe different things. It can hardly be otherwise, given its history. What I can't stand is that many Christians are not looking at all. We're satisfied with so little and stick to what's false, however absurd, because it's what we're used to and we don't want to stray from our comfort zones. It angers me to see people telling others they will spend an eternity in hellfire, when it's false, and worse, they don't care whether it's true or not. They have never cared to go beyond what they've been indoctrinated in. Nothing about God is that simple or that black and white. They were given a brain in their skulls for a reason: to use it. I understand indoctrintion because I've been indoctrinated. I've said it before and mean it when I say religious indocrination is a mental illness and enervating mental bondage and one of the worst things that could happen to one. Christianity is about little else but indoctrination and having recovered, my hatred for indoctrination and thoughtless religiousity is implacable. You're right. I should be patient. I'm not, but I try to be, with everyone I actually interact with. I'm still learning and there are Christians and people of other faiths from whom I learn, I'm in touch with as many as possible. To get different views and perpectives. There are many Christian and Buddhists and others who've gone far in their walk with God and have learned incredibly valuable things and I hound them till they spill the beans. But here I feel free to say what's on my mind, what I think, and don't censor it, because there's no reason to. It's like waking up from a dream and seeing things as clear as day. How lost we are, wandering about, thinking we're in light when we're in darkness. How great that darkness is! It is surpassed only by the love and compassion of Christ is for us. |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by mnwankwo(m): 11:25am On Aug 04, 2010 |
Mad_Max:Hi again Mad-Max. Thanks. I am fine. Your last sentence summed up what I was trying to convey to you. Just like the love and compassion Christ had for us inspite of our weaknesses and deficiences, so shall we show compassion and love to our fellow travellers inspite of their weaknesses too. No child learns how to walk without falling several times. But on each fall, the parents should not despair, rather they should lovingly extend a helping hand and soon the child will not only walk but run. When there is love, then there is severity rather than harshness. Besides, we should be only attached to God. If we hate things even bad things like indoctrination, we are attached to it and will one day become a victim of the very same thing we hate. This seems a paradox but I am confident you will understand what I mean. Stay blessed 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by MadMax1(f): 11:51am On Aug 04, 2010 |
I got what you're saying but the last post baffled me a little. I don't think the question is about my own love and compassion for others. That's private, and I'm not required to demonstrate or prove anything here. And yes, there are things I hate and will continue to do so until it goes away of its own accord, if ever. I shall always hate evil, be it indocrination or murdering the innocent or war or fraud or deceiving others to enrich yourself. It's not judgement, but I can have feelings about certain things, and I have no one to impress or prove anything to. I am occasionally free to say what I really think. There's no reason why I shouldn't. If you've ever been in bondage you want others out of there and you won't accomplish that by playing to the gallery or keeping mum. But all that is not in play here. There is no agenda on this thread, just a discussion with others of like mind where I can say what I really think, and that is going to continue. |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by mnwankwo(m): 12:17pm On Aug 04, 2010 |
Mad_Max: Hi again Mad_Max. I meant well. I just offered an advice albeit unsolicited and nothing more. Stay blessed. 1 Like |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by MyJoe: 1:44pm On Aug 04, 2010 |
@Mad_Max Great post. I have a business associate-come-friend who is an extreme WOF Christian. Some of his beliefs about deploying God at will to win contracts or kill your enemies are some of the most obnoxious things I have ever heard. Now, this man says he respects what he calls my "high principles" so it just depresses him I am "missing out on Christ and might end up in hellfire". Discussions always begin with him saying , "You really have to come to church this Sunday" and often ending, thirty minutes to two hours later, with me saying, "I pray contemporary Christianity discovers Christ someday. When it happens, I will congratulate you. I may even join you." It sometimes leaves me with a mind conflict as to whether people are to blame for their indoctrination or not. Most people can't be bothered. You can hardly blame some people since they don't understand it all. For instance, my experience with some illiterate people is that they place a lot of faith on anything read from a book, particularly a sacred book. For some people I guess it doesn't really matter because they are such good and godly people in thoughts, words and deeds that whatever creed they subscribe to just can't be important. But often you see intelligent people and others with Ph.D. carrying indoctrination into adulthood and telling you you are damned if you don't share his beliefs. M_Nwankwo said something very important: one needs a genuine heart which is open to receiving the truth. Problem is that too many people believe they have the truth already and so are not seeking anything, even if what they parrot around makes no sense at all. |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by mnwankwo(m): 2:41pm On Aug 04, 2010 |
M_Nwankwo said something very important: one needs a genuine heart which is open to receiving the truth. Problem is that too many people believe they have the truth already and so are not seeking anything, even if what they parrot around makes no sense at all.Hi MyJoe. It may appear on the surface that they are not seeking, indeed most of them may not even be counscious of the fact that they are seeking. Even when one already believes that he has the Truth, what he believes or imagines himself to believe is irrelevant to the laws of God that govern the Universe. The laws of God do not return blessing or punishment based on what people believe themselves to be but rather the laws return blessing or punishment based on our innermost thoughts, intuition, words and actions. The laws of God which bear the will of God return to each individual what he has sown to the minutest detail. It is for this reason that no one should worry much about his neigbour for these laws of God will and do reveal with mathematical exactitude where each one stands. Each individual should passionately look at his own experiences and that of his neighbours and he will soon come to the realization that supreme over all is the will of God which manifests in the irrevocable march of events. Hardwired in the laws of God is the mechanism that eliminates evil, and forces each of us to reveal our true nature even when we want to conceal it. Just look around you, a pastor who for decades have hypocritically preached against gays and immorality is suddenly found to be gay and immoral, a monk or celibate priest who have for decades championed absistence from sex is shown to be the father of not one but several kids, a professor who have champoined elimination of exam malpractice in our universities is found to have forged his certificate etc. On the surface it will appear as if these hypocrites have just be found out but the truth is that the will of God compels them to reveal themselves. The same laws also reveal genuine human beings who serve God irrespective of there religious affliations. The mills of the gods grind slowly but they grind exeedinly fine. Thus no matter what people believe, even when they imagine themselves to be God, such a belief will exist until such a time when the rays of the will of God torch them, THEN IT WILL BE CLEAR TO THEM AND OTHERS THAT THEY HAVE FOLLOWED THE WRONG COURSE. As always stay blessed. 1 Like |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by MyJoe: 3:17pm On Aug 04, 2010 |
Thank, M_Nwankwo. I think that is fair. |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by MadMax1(f): 3:50pm On Aug 04, 2010 |
There's nothing in my responses to indicate I didn't think you meant well, M_Nwankwo. I know you do, your point was taken. I criticise Christianity because I'm a Christian, and because I'm free to. I'm really not on some spiritual pedestal from which I may reach down and gently lead others to my own truth, patient with their stumblings or whatever. I'm in there among the seeking masses, as are we all. What I think may change over time as new evidence comes in, but I am free to say what I think. MyJoe,I'm laughing my head off at your conversation with your friend, including all the parts you didn't put in. What's WOF? You know how the world is. Few people are rational about their beliefs, and those beliefs don't even have to be religious ones. Look at slavery and supremacy and racism and ethnicism and caste systems, for instance. Someone was telling me they still take the osu caste sytem seriously in some parts of Igboland.We don't live in a thinking world at all. Everyone having an open mind is one of those utopian thingies we're never going to have. I was reading an American Catholic PhD who saw nothing wrong with the conduct of RCC in the past and wished those things were still here with us, but said people might not stand for it now. Imagine that. The furor his comment caused made the RCC replace him in whatever office he was serving them in, to quieten the noise. But those are the man's honest opinions and the noise won't change that. A PhD. If only we can all keep an open mind. If only. Some need a little truth and some need a lot. Many Christians are content with dogma and indoctrinated ritualised religion when God is all they need. We say we're serving God, who is alive and eager to speak, but we cannot go and ask Him to clarify dogma that is supposedly about Him. The 'bible' and religious titles and religious rituals and doctrines weigh higher on some people's scales than God Himself, and the sum of all those things is actually their God. |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by MyJoe: 4:52pm On Aug 04, 2010 |
Lol. And this one with his wife: Me: You mean God will burn me in hellfire for eternity for a mere 70 or 80 years of sin? Her: It is not your sins God will burn you for. It is your stubborn refusal to accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour after hearing the message. (She’s a first class honours science graduate and a company executive) WOF = Word of Faith. I guess as a brand of Christianity it started life on the pages of some magazine published by Kenneth Hagin before taking on a life of its own. WOF Christians are quite easy to recognise with their “Speak it and claim it.” “I am not an ordinary man.” “I operate at a higher level.” "Nothing can stop you." “I am higher than angels.” “Christ has already gained you the victory. Everything in the world is yours. Just take it.” and similar feel-good nonsense. If you watch Nigerian television on Sundays, you already know its biggest proponents there. Mad_Max:You know, Paul states similar sentiments in Philippians 3:19. |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by MadMax1(f): 8:00am On Aug 05, 2010 |
Lol. How do you know you and all those truckloads of girlie magazines aren't headed for the cosmic incinerator? I've been meaning to ask: How did you make the journey to your belief system? Does it have a holy book? I know the basics but it must have taken more than that to hook you. How come deism? |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by MyJoe: 6:33pm On Aug 06, 2010 |
Like it says in Ps 115:8, it is those who make bad things that end up in those states. I don’t really have a belief “system”. The D label seems close enough to approximate my position, hence I am not averse to using it. My position accords with my personal observation or experience. It also makes the most sense to me. I had a Christian upbringing like most on this forum. But after sometime your own thinking processes kick in and you start asking questions. Once you ask that question, you find a gaping hole or two. And then you decide to reconsider everything. You go back to agnostic position and start from there. That was it. There isn't "a holy book" for me. I read the sacred books, though. They are useful. |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by nuclearboy(m): 7:45pm On Aug 06, 2010 |
You guys must NOT allow this thread die. @Mad_Max: Can you provide YOUR own definition of re-incarnation. Some stuff you wrote up there strike a chord and I would really wish you expand on the matter. Also, can you provide a list of things in the NT that support the idea? If you'd like privacy (assuming you want to respond), please send details to nlbomb@gmail.com |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by MadMax1(f): 3:59pm On Aug 07, 2010 |
Hmmm. Until your own thinking processes kicked in. Lucky you. That doesn't happen for everbody. A few don't think what they believe should make sense to their brain. They think whatever they believe should have 'mystery' and parts that can't be 'explained', or else it doesn't feel like religion. Ironically, all religions are man-made. There isn't a single one God invented. So you have the things men have made amd when you get to the parts that makes no sense, like three Gods in one in Christianity, you say it's a 'mystery'. Sometimes they make a break for freedom and all, but their own minds short-circuits the process because the indoctrination is too deep. They may try but conditioning merely returns them to their original religious positions. It's safer. They simply return to their irrational beliefs and rationalize later. @nuclear, Hi bobo. Well, it's all pretty much up there. God made other worlds in this universe and intelligent beings like us inhabit them in untold numbers. They look different from us biologically, but they're just as smart, and just as spiritually lost and in need of Christ and God. Some societies are far, far better than the ones we have. Some may be worse. Christ told Storm (his book encouraged my research) that he'd been on every single physical world in existence. On some there were no problems and he was welcomed. On others, like ours, the reception was hostile. But the inquantifiable love and compassion of Christ is the salvation of all of God's children, flung across many worlds in many galaxies in the universe. Isn't it exciting to think that, on some world right now, some 'alien' may be bored out of his skull in some equivalent of 'church' or 'temple' and wishes his parents would stop making him go. You're made in the image of God. You're an immortal spirit being, though not an immortal physical one. You're older than the planet you're squatting on, nuc. Maybe you should try asking God all that has happened to you between the instant of 'time' you were created, and August 2010. You've been a very busy nuclear. You won't remember anything because you're inhabiting flesh and you can't function here if you remember. You don't remember now because that's how you wanted it, and for a good reaon. When you leave the world of flesh, you'll gradually remember, of course. Ask God to show you, if you can handle it, what you have done and where you have been and all the realities you've occupied, since He made you. This life isn't the beginning, and it's not the end either. This place is a dream, an illusion of sorts, and isn't meant to be taken too seriously. The true reality is beyond here, with God; your Father, Your Friend, your Maker. Believe me, you don't need anyone to tell you anything about God or How He/She/IT works. Never mind our vanity, no man is qualified to teach another anything. They just go about confusing each other with their own ideas. God is ALIVE and so eager to talk to you. YOU. He answers all sorts of questions, not just 'Give me a new car' or 'keep my family safe', but 'What's the answer to Drake's equation?' and 'Is there reincarnation? How does it work?' God is the ONLY authority there is on Himself and the work of His own hands. If you ask men the things that you should ask God He will not stop you. It's your choice and that choice is respected: whatever answers you get and the paths it takes you are of your own making.But if you ask God the things you should ask God, He WILL answer you. Ask Him to take your spiritual education in Hand. Imagine all He knows, nuclear. You already have the conection. You may as well use it. There can be no better teacher. |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by nuclearboy(m): 12:19am On Aug 08, 2010 |
^^ ok, will see. One thing though - do Christians say its 3 Gods that are the same OR 1 God that has manifested in three ways? Quite different, IMO |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by MadMax1(f): 7:47am On Aug 08, 2010 |
;d |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by 49cents(m): 8:01pm On Aug 09, 2010 |
Mad_Max: Worship or adoration or respect is simply a thing of the mind, you have to be God himself, who loone can access and asses the human mind (not just surmise or assume) to know who is worshipping what; really i wonder what makes you conclude catholics worship mary as they worship God. I love Jesus Christ even though i fail him very often but it does not deter me (this is purely the work of GRACE i must admit) this does not stop me from according a special honour proper to the vesel that he chose to come through. If you believe Jesus is the incarnate of the Ever living God, who is all Holy then you would know that he must have decked the soul of Mary with the graces and purity fitting for hIS DWEELLING, ITS PURE LOGIC, BUT THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT THE mOTHER Of Christ SO I REST MY CASE AS FAR AS mary is concerned |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by marcus1234: 8:02pm On Aug 09, 2010 |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by 49cents(m): 8:53pm On Aug 09, 2010 |
@mad max I’d rather enjoy the ride of nice car then discussing it; really if you believe in some article of faith then the ultimate is the works that go with it, no matter what it is; charity like Nwankwo has been pointing out is key, although I differ with him on charity being an action (because you want to get some spiritual good) but a reaction (because you have gotten some spiritual good) On the church Do you think Christ will leave those who will not see him directly like the apostles or early Christians into error (Thomas how happy are those who did not see and yet believe), Jesus said I will not allow the gates of hell prevail against his church…this again is only logical, necesary and possible since he is God and can do all things. As a child it is not everything that you were told by your parents to do made sense…even logical sense at the time…you obeyed simply because you trusted the authority figure(s) because of their love, the sincerity and their disinterested intentions, Christ says He would not leave us orphans…and again I will be with you to the ends of the earth…what does this mean? If not that he will perpetuate his human presence, which is not subject to error (through which he deemed best to reach us, a manifestation of his boundless love for humanity) in a human form which necessarily must not be subject to error so that his redeeming works of love will not be lost one bit. Remember Jesus spoke of “His Church”….upon this rock will I find my Church…, I don’t have a thing about theological discourse such as these; but sound principles must guide them just as any hypothesis must be based on established theories or else it will a wasteful chatter where no progress is gained, my 49cents! |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by mnwankwo(m): 9:31am On Aug 10, 2010 |
@mad maxHi 49cents. I never used the word "charity"in this thread. What I simply admonished is for human beings to live according to the eternal truth which Jesus embodied in his words "Love God with all your heart and love your neighbour as yourself". Any person or creature capable of doing this has already found his way to the kingdom of God. Genuine Love that I am referring to and of which the son of God spoke about is unconditional and thus a love shown with expectation of a reward whether spiritual or earthly is not genuine love. Thus you do not love because you want to go to heaven or because you do not want to go to hell but you love because your spirit is a reflection of the love of God. Thus you are are hardwired to love by God. The reciprocal action that comes to you as a result of one living in the sense of the laws of God is a manifestation of the will of God and not a fulfillment of ones expectations. To love simply means an unconditional submission to the will of God. Genuine love is tantamount to uncondtional obedience to the will of God. It is the will of God that all the laws governing the creations of God should be recognised by the human spirit. It is for this reason that each human spirit has to journey through the various creations of God so that by experiencing in the various creations of God, the laws of God in each plane will become an integral part of the human spirit. Thus, the idea of a mystery within creation is not correct. The laws of God that govern the creations of God, from the spiritual kingdom of GOD down to the gross materail planes like our physical earth should lie lucidly clear to any human spirit that is alive. Thus even while on earth and in full awareness, one can be granted the grace to survey and experience different planes of creation. This grace given to one by God does not require any training or reading books or spiritual exerises, NDE or OBE . All that one need do is to love God and all creatures of God unconditionally, then the bandage that blocks his outer and inner faculties will fall away. Then the human spirit will have the grace of counscious drawing from the the power of God and this drawing gives it access to counscious experiencing in the various creations of God even while on earth. Under such a guidance and protection from God, he or she can survey the enormous dangers that befall those who who of their own accord opened their spirits to worlds and currents which the spirit has not the maturity nor the purity to decern. It is for this reason alone that several internal inconsistency as well as self glorification are the hall mark of essays or testimonies given by spiritualists, occultists, mystics, spirtists or even those that have OBE or NDE experiences. A premature opening of the spirit to other worlds will only expose such a spirit to the world of sham where everthing is possible and impossible at the same time. Every genuine seeker for his own good is advised to stay aware from all endeavour that prematurely opens the soul to the sham worlds of the beyound. Stay blessed. |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by MyJoe: 12:57pm On Aug 10, 2010 |
Mad_Max:Beautifully summarised. m_nwankwo:I can't thank you enough for this. |
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