The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance - Religion (5) - Nairaland
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| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by DeepSight(m): 2:16pm On Jul 07, 2010 |
@ Max - The perceptions of light and darkness I tried to convey have absolutely no relation whatever with the concepts of day and night as experienced on Earth. I had spoken along the lines of centrifugal and centripetal intangible and self existent realities. Nevertheless I note that you want a Christian perspective and thus I must leave it to the Christians to revert to you. Cheers. |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by MyJoe: 2:23pm On Jul 07, 2010 |
Does Satan exist as an independent entity? The short answer is I do not find it plausible. Below is the fairly long answer. First consider the candidates nominated for Satan by the Abrahamic faiths, particularly Christianity and Islam. He was made by God, but he turned bad and started messing things up. This Satan is presented as the powerful ruler of an underworld kingdom whose sole preoccupation is to do evil, stop Christians worshipping God, and stop people from becoming Christians. Hardly makes sense. Whatever was Satan thinking when he rebelled against an omnipotent God who created him, knowing he could not hope to win? And some angels were so dumb to sail with him? Remember these guys relate with God one-on-one, unlike humans who don’t and so sometimes doubt the existence of God. And this just brings God to the level of humans – making plans and having such plans messed up. Impossible. I believe you are aware that this satan belongs to latter Judaism and Christianity. The book of Genesis says nothing at all about Satan, but a precocious snake, much like the sow that suckled Romulus. The emergence of Satan as the embodiment of darkness in the conflict between light and darkness and as opponent of God was borrowed from Zoroastrianism after contact with the Persians. Then consider the traditional Hebrew satan, the one depicted in the book of Job as a member of God’s own court, acting as God’s intelligence chief and testing who is worthy of favour. He also performs a similar role in Genesis, where he tests the first couple to find out if they were worthy of the paradise bestowed on them, except this first time he was yet to get into the habit of obtaining God’s permission. Interestingly, this is also the kind of satan sponsored by the Eckanker movement, that is, God’s man Friday and head of KGB. I think it’s possible to find some similarities between this kind of satan and Esu of Yoruba mythology and Hermes of Greek mythology. Which certainly does not apply to the Satan of Christianity and Islam subversively named Esu by Yoruba adherents of these faiths. In any case, I fail to see the need for, or workability of, this kind of Satan. How does he tempt people? Does he have the power to influence thoughts? Like he incited David to number Israel in one account, by which coup he successfully forced Yahweh to dispatch the hosts of heaven to slaughter thousands of Jews. Nobody would be safe from him. Does he work by making life hard for you so you would curse God like the case of Job? When I tragically lost two sisters a few years back could that be Satan trying to see if I will curse God, having obtained God’s permission to try? Again we would all be unsafe and just be balls on a billiard table. Worse, this would reduce God to a ghoul who revels in watching mischief from an imperial throne. You know, the kind of “God” described in the movie, “The Devil’s Advocate”. And what we see around us does not tell us that people who suffer hardship are more likely to curse God by words or action than those who live in affluence, does it? I am not quite as certain as Deep Sight about what is eternal and self-existent and what is not, or about light and darkness being centripetal and centrifugal respectively. (Mind you, I am not dismissing that, just not as certain as Deep Sight about it.) But it does appear that if there were no bad things around we would have no conception or measure of the good. I believe the world is the way God created it, with good and evil existing side by side and with men having the freewill to choose. I am not suggesting that God created evil, just that it was bound to come about with men having freewill. I guess that is why Deep Sight sees these things as self-existent. The existence of Satan would take away that freewill since Satan has supernatural powers and we don’t. Just a bit of that power would be all it takes, since, unlike God who endows us with and respects our freewill, Satan is said to have a consuming passion in getting us to buy shares in his venture. But who really needs a satan, anyway? We may have lost Joseph Stalin, Foday Sankoh, Ali al-Majid, Samuel Doe, Papa Doc, Pol Pot and the others, but as I write this, Omar Hell-Bashir, Ibrahim Babangida, Ramzan Kadyrov, Than Shwe and a few others are still capably in the business of underwriting evil in the world. From what can be observed, the concept of alternate realities as taught in Tibetan Buddhism and several other worldviews is something one cannot dismiss. It appears whatever you believe strongly in takes on significance in the spiritual plane, becoming your world. This has been dealt with earlier in this thread. I will like to put “evil spirits” down to alternate realities, but I cannot be so certain about this. While I consider that a likely possibility, there is another possibility of dead people whose volitions are evil having something to do with it. Now that (italics) is pure speculation. Same as I would have offered if you asked me about Paul the Octopus. |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by MyJoe: 2:26pm On Jul 07, 2010 |
agi-tuedor:Yes, very insightful. Mad_Max:Actually, I'm not a Christian.  |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by noetic16(m): 3:46pm On Jul 07, 2010 |
MyJoe: Good posers you have raised . . , but have u considered the possibility that u are seeing it from a different (and "perhaps" wrong) perspective? 1. From what we know of satan, just one word is prevalent. . he sinned. If you consider that satan was once the highest ranking angel who also had several angels under him, then it is impossible to dismiss the possibility of satan becoming ambitious to upstage God. That ambition is what God called sin. We are discussing an immaterial world here where all that matters is glory, worship and adoration. It is as such conceivable that satan would desire to be just like God. If u also consider that as "black-labelled" as satan is, many all over the world still worship him. . . that tells you the original intentions of satan. 2. Satan could not have foretold the failure of his plans or the reactions of God. As the scriptures would state that satan was the first person ever to face judgement. Satan was given a future judgement by God . . . . that he should first be cast out of "heaven" and then be cast into the lake of fire when he finally gives his powers to the anti-Christ. Though we know of Abbadon who is held in the bottomless pit and the other beasts chained to another location. while we do not know their offence, one can infer that they sinned against God. 3. Satan does not care if u "worship God or not" (though he tries to prevent u from experiencing true worship). He does not care if u go to church or not. what he wants to do is to truncate the plan of God for mankind. The plan of God for man is to bring us to a point of salvation and give us an eternal life. This was the same eternal life that has been taken away from satan and other fallen angels. and their corresponding reaction is that, "if I cannot have it, then no one can". And the only way they can stop man from obtaining his God-given spiritual destiny is to destroy the relationship between man and God. That explains atheism, deism, budhism, satanism and all other forms of idolatry. 4. God made no plan for angels. We have no record of such plans. He gave all FREE-WILL. satan used his free will and fell. God made plans for mankind, but also gave us free-will to choose. Then consider the traditional Hebrew satan, the one depicted in the book of Job as a member of God’s own court, acting as God’s intelligence chief and testing who is worthy of favour. He also performs a similar role in Genesis, where he tests the first couple to find out if they were worthy of the paradise bestowed on them, except this first time he was yet to get into the habit of obtaining God’s permission. 1. The question should be. , .where is satan now? is he in heaven, "heaven", hell or on earth? While we know that satan does not dwell on earth but influence the things on earth. we also know that he does not dwell in the presence of God. he also is not yet in hell, as his time has not come. What happened in the book of Job was an appearance before God. Satan dwells in the spirit realm which can only be called "heaven" for lack of words. how do I know this? The bible tells of a time to come when satan would be cast out of the "heavens" into the earth (revelation 12:7-9) 2. In the garden of eden, all satan did was to ensure that man fell, just as he had. he succeeded in doing that. In Job's case, to understand why satan needed God's permission you need to examine satan's response to God. . . job 1:10 . . . .there was a hedge around Job that made it impossible for satan or anyone to afflict his family. In the case of Adam and Eve . . .all they had was a command from God telling them not to eat of the forbidden fruit. 3. Satan does not tempt you to bring out the best in you. . . .he tempts you to make u fall and fall victim of God's judgement. Satan also tempted Jesus. . . .was it to help Jesus or make Him fail? In any case, I fail to see the need for, or workability of, this kind of Satan. How does he tempt people? Does he have the power to influence thoughts? Like he incited David to number Israel in one account, by which coup he successfully forced Yahweh to dispatch the hosts of heaven to slaughter thousands of Jews. Nobody would be safe from him. Does he work by making life hard for you so you would curse God like the case of Job? When I tragically lost two sisters a few years back could that be Satan trying to see if I will curse God, having obtained God’s permission to try? Again we would all be unsafe and just be balls on a billiard table. Worse, this would reduce God to a ghoul who revels in watching mischief from an imperial throne. You know, the kind of “God” described in the movie, “The Devil’s Advocate”. And what we see around us does not tell us that people who suffer hardship are more likely to curse God by words or action than those who live in affluence, does it? 1. The concept of satan has gone beyond lucifer's personality. Satan is now a representation of anything not of God. . , .which are sin and evil. Satan is not omni-present and as such cannot be every where to incite every one. but the sin of man bears fruit all over the world to the glory of satan and his success in the garden of eden. 2. Satan is ONLY attracted to Godliness and righteousness. The case of Job and David attests to this. When a person chooses to live for God and not for the lusts of the world, satan is attracted as he sees the heirs of eternal salvation. Satan plots to ensure that the gift of salvation is not effective in the life of man. 3. unless and until u begin to live for God. . . .satan is admissibly indifferent to u. 4. my condolences with regards to ur sisters. . . .but there is an appointed end for all of mankind. . . .the question is are u prepared? I am not quite as certain as Deep Sight about what is eternal and self-existent and what is not, or about light and darkness being centripetal and centrifugal respectively. (Mind you, I am not dismissing that, just not as certain as Deep Sight about it.) But it does appear that if there were no bad things around we would have no conception or measure of the good. I believe the world is the way God created it, with good and evil existing side by side and with men having the freewill to choose. I am not suggesting that God created evil, just that it was bound to come about with men having freewill. I guess that is why Deep Sight sees these things as self-existent. The existence of Satan would take away that freewill since Satan has supernatural powers and we don’t. Just a bit of that power would be all it takes, since, unlike God who endows us with and respects our freewill, Satan is said to have a consuming passion in getting us to buy shares in his venture.this is just an opinion. . . which is plainly unfounded. But who really needs a satan, anyway? We may have lost Joseph Stalin, Foday Sankoh, Ali al-Majid, Samuel Doe, Papa Doc, Pol Pot and the others, but as I write this, Omar Hell-Bashir, Ibrahim Babangida, Ramzan Kadyrov, Than Shwe and a few others are still capably in the business of underwriting evil in the world. All of the above people have done things (works) which glorify Satan. . . just like Jesus told His followers to do things that would glorify the Father (mathew 5:16)
That we have limited information of the spiritual/immaterial world. . .does not dismiss its existence. |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by DeepSight(m): 4:16pm On Jul 07, 2010 |
^^^ Any person with the slightest apprehension of the Godhead must instantly dismiss the notion that it is possible for any spirit being to attempt to "depose" God, or "enter into war" against God, or try to become like God. Such an endeavour is even more implausible when once considers that the lead coup plotter is said to be an angel of such high office that the eternal, self-existent and intangible nature of God is doubtless known to him. That God IS is something such an angel would know and in light of this it becomes comical to conceive of such a being attempting to war with the intangible self-existent reality that is God, or become like God. These really do sound like ancient semitic folk tales; which is what they are anyway. |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by MadMax1(f): 6:30pm On Jul 07, 2010 |
@deep sight I got what you were saying. Evil exists because good exists. They're eternal opposites, because everything has an opposite. I was diagreeing with that, that the existence of one doesn't presuppose the other. To humans there is light and it has an opposite in darkness. We grew up in a world with day and night. Night came to be associated with darkness, and darkness came to symbolize evil to us. In the places where there is no night and no darkness, in solar systems with two suns or more, what then becomes their symbol for evil? Certainly not 'darkness'. They have no 'opposite' to day or light, unlike us. You come from a postion that takes it for granted that everything must have an opposite. It doesn't follow. The rules here, however obvious or inevitable they may seem, don't necessarily apply everywhere in existence. Night, Satan, Darkness or evil are not inevitable merely because there is day, God, light or good. @MyJoe Can I ask what you are? Are you New Age? Grail? What? Doesn't matter but it would be nice to know. About the intermediate reality thing, I read quite a lot of Near death experiences. It bears it out. I'm talking about people who actually died for hours and came back during autopsy or days later when their corpses were already rotting. It's been well established NDEs are not a function of the brain, or from a 'lack of oxygen to the brain'. Their spirit separates from their body, fully conscious. They watch their body and the people around but can't interact, and then stuff starts happening. They start seeing realms or religious personalities they believe in: Buddha, Krishna, Jesus, etc. They may go a heaven of their culture or religion, and see people who believed the same as they. They may go a hell of their religion and see it populated by whatever they had believed would be there. Buddhism says it's just their mind and their beliefs projecting all that stuff, and after a while, the true reality of God would intrude on their created worlds and the real deal starts. Unfortunately,most NDEsare still in their created realities by the time they return tpo their bodies. So they have 'confirmation' of all their beliefs, but since they hadn't gone to the Real Reality where God is, bring back nothing about the workings of the place. The interesting NDEs are the atheists who have no beliefs and so don't experience the intermediate stage but go the True Reality direct. They're really eye-opening. Some of their experiences are horrifying, but they are the ones who get to the Real Reality and so interact with Christ and see how the place works. Most people who see 'jesus' in their intermediate stage sometimes see what they expected to see, a gentle human radiating love. But atheists encounter a being of unspeakable love and light that has a physical presence but is not human in form. I was struck by that until I realised the human form only exists on earth. Some of them went through untold horrors in places they didn't believe existed until they were rescued when they called to God for help. It is usually atheists that tend to have the presence of mind, after a long time being comforted and weeping and recovering from their terrible ordeal, to ask questions of Christ and get mind-blowing answers. Needless to say, no atheist has ever returned from an NDE and remained an atheist lol. MyJoe, if you don't want your plans messed up, you don't give a thing free will. Being given free will meant creatures are to free to choose God or not, and are not under compulsion to be with him. It means creatures are free to oppose the will of God. We human beings mess up God's plans every single day. There's nothing impossible about it. The Greeks have a story similar to the Judaic one. Zeus is the Head of the Greek Gods and rules on Olympus, home of the Gods. But Zeus is not the father of the Gods. He himself had a father, Kronos, but there was a rebellion and Zeus killed his father and became the Supreme God, reigning on Olympus. The parallels with the Judaic version is obvious, except in the latter, the rebeller did not succeed. So things rebelling isn't confined to the Jews, though it's possible they borrowed from each other, but the details are far too different, especially as symbolized in Revelations. You think evil and good are different sides of the same coin? Two sides or expressions of God? Actually the Genesis story, though allegorical, clearly used a snake to symbolize Satan, the Old serpent, the deceiver, and right off the bat, it was obvious this creature was in opposition to the Genesis God, and worked against God. And other parts of the Old testament, Older than Zoroastianism, lamented the fall of Lucifer, calling him glorious and beautiful and almost matchless, until 'iniquity' was found in him. More than once in the Gospels Jesus seemed to be speaking directly to the creature. My puzzlement stems from the fact that people freely choose their actions and our free will isn't interfered with, so why would a Satan be necessary here? Evil came about because humans have free will? So we created evil in a sense?Evil did not exist before humanity did? That's new. |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by noetic16(m): 6:43pm On Jul 07, 2010 |
Deep Sight: how about the FREE WILL God gave to man? are angels robotic beings who just obey without reasoning? while Angels do not have an absolutely comprehensive understanding of the nature and mysteries of God . . . .they do however have free-will and yearn to know the things of God. Satan did not attempt to war against God . . . .he simply chose to make himself LIKE God. . . .this is considered a sin. This sin led to war, as there cannot be a rival to God in the heavens.
You are simply assuming that satan has no mind of his own. |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by MadMax1(f): 7:21pm On Jul 08, 2010 |
MyJoe, where is you? I've a dozen things I'm puzzled by and would really like your view on them. Your views won't be debated though I hope I can ask clarifying questions. I was going to ask something about the Eden/Adamic fall of man genesis story, but knowing what to ask is a bit awkward if one doesn't know your religious beliefs. I don't even know Deep Sight's. |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by DeepSight(m): 8:31am On Jul 09, 2010 |
Mad_Max: If this is not masochism on my part, I do no know what else is; but at the risk of my psycological balance and with great peril to my personal safety I will attempt again to give you my unsolicited and I know much despised views regarding the question you have hinted at: the garden of Eden. Could it be that the legend related in Genesis regarding the fall of man in Eden is not a reference to an event that occured in this world, but rather describes the departure of the spirit of mankind from the eternal spiritual realm into the world of matter? This would tally with many things. A forbidden fruit would be the world of matter. Entering into it would bring about knowledge of good and evil, as presumably there is no evil in the realm from which the spirit came. Or there is just pure neutrality. Casting out man from the garden would be sending the spirit out of the spiritual realm into the world of matter. Wearing animal skins is a clear indicator of the physical bodies that man must wear to live in the physical world. Such bodies bear close resemblances to animal bodies. It is instructive that the fruit is given by the woman, since it is by women that we are born into the world of matter. On top of all that God promises that if man eats the fruit he shall die. It is certain that death is only known to man once he has entered the world of matter. Above all the reference to the Lord God strolling in the Garden and communing daily with man there on a one to one basis indicates that this was a spiritual realm where God's presence was. Most instructively however, the TREE OF LIFE was said to reside in the garden. Crucially, it is said to be guarded by cherubs and a flaming sword after the fall of man. That says it all; it could not have been this earth. It was another realm. The ultimate realm. |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by MyJoe: 10:58am On Jul 09, 2010 |
Mad_Max:I do not subscribe to any creed in its totality. I am also not a member of any religion, since I do not believe God requires any formal worship or intervenes in human affairs. I believe that preconceived ideas should not stand in the way of the truth – assuming it is granted to man to know the truth while here. However, I do see many written principles, such as the words of Jesus in the Sermon of the Mount, the sayings in the sixth chapter of the Bhagavad Gita addressed to pupils of Yoga, and several others, as useful guides for life. Mad_Max:There is something in that ^^^. Mad_Max:Jeez! Got to starting reading some NDEs. Can you email me real interesting stuff or links? editors008@gmail.com Mad_Max:I agree with highlighted. Now let me try to make my point clearer. Actually, my view is that the Omnipotent God does not make plans. I think when it is time for something, he does it. Plans are tentative, subjective and blind. Just when you think you had made allowances for all possible hitches, something pops out and the cookie crumbles, spewing some fragments into your eyes. No, planning would be for puny beings like us. Now, my point is that if God’s set purpose was for man to live in paradise and sing his praises all day, then no angel, satan or reptile could have messed that up. It is impossible. What I find far more plausible is the idea that God created us and gave us free will. Period. With that freewill some choose to be bad. This is a world different from messing up God’s plans that everything is good and lives in paradise. The idea behind this theology, which I do not buy, is that the loving God did not want us to experience bad things like cancer, plane crash, poverty, IBB, genocide, oil companies, acid rain, politics, global warming, corruption, Gaza, abortion, and the like. It is my view that God neither willed these for us nor willed them from us. He simply created us and gave us free will. Deep Sight used a word I like in his post above: neutrality. Our evil thoughts and works brought the bad things about. Did God know some people will use their freewill to upbuild while others will gravitate towards darkness? Obviously, this is not a useful question. Mad_Max:Yeah, details are different. At least Zeus had reasons for deposing Cronus. In fact, if there was no Zeus to depose Cronus then Zeus ought to have been invented. For Zeus, a plea of provocation would stand up in any court where Western-type democracy reigns. Whereas, the Christian satan just woke up one bright summer morning and decided to depose his Omnipotent Creator! Mad_Max:The nature of being, the self-existent or eternal nature of things is not something I get into everyday. If you dig around here you will unearth some threads where some of the most brilliant minds on this forum debate whether numbers truly exist or not. Brilliant arguments you will find but strip the posts of all their intellectual wrappings and all you are left with is the old chicken and egg debate. Mad_Max:No. Or better, still, I don’t know. Mad_Max:You are referring to Ezekiel. You see, I skirted this when I wrote my earlier post, and I am still not inclined to take a serious jig at it now. But the Lucifer of the OT is not the same as the contemporary Satan, that is, the one that was picked up by later Judaism, was fairly well-established by the time the Gospels were written, and was given a prime seat when modern Christianity was assembled by the Bishops. Several Christian theologians are of this view as you will find if you research it. Mad_Max:That is one good reason why a satan would be superfluous. But, then, it is in our nature not to take responsibility for our actions. That is why we have a vested interest in Satan. Christians ought to be praying for his good health and long life. Mad_Max:Ha! Reading that ^^^ into what I wrote is an act of violence. Mad_Max:Deep Sight has provided some useful perspectives. Perhaps you want to flesh your question some more now you know my religious beliefs, or lack of them. Oh, Deep Sight is an "intuitive and empirical deist".  So you are like addressing two deists.And you are welcome to ask questions or debate. Deep Sight:I don't see any despising or any of the above around here at all. The question was clearly also addressed to you, hence the expression of being at a loss as to your world view. |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by MyJoe: 11:09am On Jul 09, 2010 |
@noetic16 I read what you wrote and, honestly, I admire your brilliance in making Bible applications. I can’t do a point-by-point on it now. I disagree with much of it but am in 100% agreement with your first sentence. There you used the word “possibility”. Very apt. My answer is YES. Yes, I have considered the possibility that I am wrong. The possibility that noetic16 is wrong. The possibility that the Quran is wrong. The possibility that the Bible is wrong. Now, have you?  And you appear to have missed the fact that Satan did not shoot barbed arrows at Job, found they could not penetrate a hedge and then rushed to God to ask that the hedge be removed. The hedge was simply a figurative reference to divine protection which shielded the person of Job, his people and his material property from everyday ravages of diseases, natural disasters and marauder bands, because of his closeness to God afforded through his faith and works. Satan was merely observing a procedure, like asking your father's permission to take the car keys even though they lie carelessly on the table. To the rest of what you wrote, I complete endorse this (if you remove "Godhead", a trinitarian word I am hardly comfortable with): Deep Sight: |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by MyJoe: 11:13am On Jul 09, 2010 |
Oh, about my absence? Went offshore - in the cyber sense. |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by MadMax1(f): 9:34pm On Jul 09, 2010 |
Deep Sight: I absolutely agree with you. I've exactly the same interpretation on the Eden story. Paul says in Romans that death came into the world because of the sin of Adam. The doctrine says sin was inherited from Adam, passed down to his descendants, so everyone is guilty from birth. Apparently, if they hadn't eaten the fruit human beings would have been immortal, and there would have been no biological death. But If evolution is correct and we evolved our bodies, Adam and Eve never existed. If they never existed, all that Adamic sin and death coming into the world and inherited sin is hot air and Paul's own opinions passed off as doctrine. One interesting thing: Maybe I didn't search hard enough, but in all four gospels, Jesus does not mention Adam and Eve ONCE. Which is remarkable, if they actually existed and played such a pivotal role in the sins Christ came to save us from. In fact, Nothing Christ says gives credence to the theory that Adam and Eve were real, much less brought 'death' and donated an 'inherited sinful nature' to their 'descendants' because they ate fruit. The Eden story is a little like Pandora's Box. She was given a box and told never to open it. She disobeyed, opened the box, and out of it came death and all human suffering. How did you come by your interpretation of the Eden story? |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by MadMax1(f): 9:44pm On Jul 09, 2010 |
MyJoe, Sorry about the 'act of violence'.  I was asking those as clarifying questions when you remarked that God didn't create evil, but it was bound to come about from men having free will. I almost expired of laughter from your crack about Christians praying to keep Satan in health lol. Here are some NDEs. There are millions of them worldwide. Atheists first, after which I'll post some Buddhist, Moslem and Christian NDEs later. Atheists: Howard Storm (University Professor, hard-core atheist before the experience. Read through the four indexes of his NDE experience. ) http://www.near-death.com/storm.html Dannion Brinkley http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence11.html Beverly Brodsky (Jew, turned atheist after pondering holocaust) http://www.near-death.com/experiences/judaism02.html Tom Sawyer http://www.near-death.com/experiences/reincarnation03.html Ned Dogherty (this guy either experienced a created intermediate, or he was being deceived.) http://www.near-death.com/dougherty.html Louis Famoso (obvious intermediate self-generatd world) http://www.near-death.com/forum/nde/000/05.html Don Brubaker (another intermediate for contrast. He sees Jesus as a human being with a handsome face.) http://www.near-death.com/forum/nde/000/92.html You can explore the website for more. Be wary of NDEs though. I could pore through hundreds before coming across a genuine TRUE REALITY encounter. Our religions may not matter, but our actions do. There is always a reckoning. In many of these encounters, however evil the person may have been, it's all sunshine and light and love. Remember people self-generate first, and then mischevous spirits generate NDE experiences for them as well, impersonating people they trust, so that anything they say will be accepted without question. No doubt God would intervene if they truly die but they're soon returned to their bodies. I read the NDE of man who'd murdered someone years earlier. He went to a bar, was caressing the bartender, discovered 'she' was a he, a transsexual, and promptly wanted to beat her to death. The transsexual took out a pistol and shot him twice in the chest. En route to the hospital, his spirit left his body. A being of light appeared and it was all love and acceptance. Even the guy was surprised. He said later,'They didn't say anything about the bad things I'd done. I knew I should be in hell instead of this nice place, but kept my mouth shut, Why knock a good thing?' Even a felon sensed justice wasn't done. It's like these bad spirits want to give the impression that what you do with your life doesn't matter. So they hover around someone who will likely survive a medical battle to save their lives and show them a 'beyond' where human actions aren't accounted for. Deception. But some NDEs are absolutely real and encounter the true CHRIST in the true realm where God is. Howard Storm's NDE (above) is one such example. He's an atheist.The moment Christ appeared, I knew, with every fiber of my being, that it was Him. The first thing He did was HEAL Storm. Then He wordlessly held Storm like a child as he wept in hell. Then He took him out of hell. Their conversation, when Howard had recovered, was extremely fascinating on several levels. One, there was no Vatican/ 'Church Fathers' to edit it. Two,when Howard returned to life after that experience, he looked around for a religion, he didn't take it for granted that Christianity was the 'true religion'. Three, he asked Christ if the things written about Him in the bible was true, and Christ said Yes. Four, he was a university professor and an atheist and so, without thinking, asked all the right questions. You see, a religious person would have taken certain things for granted as 'the truth' from religious doctrine. Howard was an atheist and asked his head off. Five, the experience completely changed his life. He was full of love and began to serve his fellow men, of his own free will. From just ONE encounter with Christ. Anyone who claims it was Christ he/she met but whose life showed no fruit in service is engaged in self-deceit. Six, Howard's experience with Christ did not end with his NDE. After his return, his eyes were sometimes opened and he was allowed to see spirit beings around them other people could not see. It was a powerful NDE because he encountered the true Christ. One single encounter changed him from a cynical die-hard atheist who felt nothing but contempt for people who believed because he thought they sought refuge in religious fantasies as an escape hatch from the realities of life. When Christ took him out of hell, Christ told him he couldn't take Howard to meet God because of his spiritual condition. Howard wasn't 'ready'. They stopped some distance away, but Howard didn't describe where God was as a 'city' or 'building', the closest he could come was a galaxy of light, from which beings of light were coming and going. It didn't even occur to Howard to write a book until Anne Rice, that crazily gifted author who turned Christian, heard his story, believed him and persuaded him to do so. Let me recommend his book on the experience, My Descent into Death by Howard Storm. It's excellent. Paul says in Romans, Ephesians and Galatians that we are saved by faith, and that Christians are Justified by faith.(Eph 2:8, Romans 3:28, Romans 5:1, Gal 2:16, Gal 3:24, etc) James, half brother of jesus says, in James 2:12 that a man is not saved by faith alone. In 2:20 that faith without works is dead, in 2: 24 that we're not justified by faith but by works. He goes on to say in James 1:27 that true religion before God is helping the afflicted. Christ says in Matthew 24;13 that He that endures to the end shall be saved. In Matthew 12:37 He says, By your words you are saved, by your words you are condemned. Nothing about being saved or justifed by 'faith' in all the teachings of Christ in the entire four gospels. Seems faith is one thing, salvation another. Even Roman Catholism doesn't subscribe to the 'saved by faith' thing, though they,as usual, turn it upsidedown: 'works' used to be buying indulgences and is now priest-issued penance. Saved by faith seems peculiar to Pentecostals in all religions worldwide, but they tag it to being on the 'narrow way'. What we do counts. In fact, it's what counts the most. Storm admits he didn't experience the full depth of hell, just the fringe. Well, there must be realms for psychopaths and truly evil people, inaccesible to ordinary wicked folks like the rest of us. It's not punishment. Storm's loveless, angry, compassionless spirit was drawn, after death, towards places where exactly spirits like his were. That's what hell is. Separation from God. It's not 'eternal', His love and compassion extends even into the darkest and most hellish realities. Religious beliefs or lack of it have nothing to do with it. Same as being pulled to God if you'd lived a life of love, whether you're an atheist or not. Some people are born good and fullfil their purpose without conscious awareness or acknowledgement of God all their lives. When they die, their humanity-loving spirit is pulled towards God and Christ. But not all of us are that lucky, which is why we need God. |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by MyJoe: 5:13pm On Jul 12, 2010 |
I just started reading and these stories are really fascinating. (Been offshore, as usual). I will like to make some quick observations and await your response to them. I find Storm’s interesting, too, and will seek out the book. Much of what he says happens to agree with what I have always been convinced is true in respect of God’s relationship with man. In spite of the several levels of fascination you mentioned, I still have my reservations about Storm’s testimony. You see, he came from a Christian society and had a Christian childhood complete with Sunday school and all. Even an atheist adult retains much of that. I mean, when he started praying to "God" it was the Christian concept of God that came to his mind. But maybe when I read the whole story and then other experiences and make comparisons I will be helped to understand things better. . . I am looking forward to reading from people of other backgrounds who had NDEs. I agree with you about what I feel is the ludicrous aspect of contemporary Christianity – justification by confessing an article of faith. And I would like to know how you reconcile your assertion that Christ did not refer to the Adam story with his direct quote from Gen 2:24 in Matthew Mt 19:4,5? |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by MadMax1(f): 10:11pm On Jul 12, 2010 |
I'm just a little busy at the moment. I'll post other NDEs in a few days. I saw the verses in Matthew you mentioned long ago when I was searching for Jesus referring to Adam. He never once mentions Adam. Did you notice that He began that verse with , 'Have you not read'? That's the only place he prefaces an OT quotation with "Have you not read?". Odd. And MyJoe, He still does NOT make a single reference to Adam in that verse, merely that God created people male and female, a self-evident fact. If you check out the Genesis verse he quoted from, you'll see that he ought to have mentioned Adam, because in Genesis, that verse was used to refer to the MARRIAGE OF ADAM AND EVE. This is the full text referred in Genesis: Gen 2: 23-24 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. The two verses go together. Instead He avoids Adam, and quotes two separate verses: Gen 2: 24, and Genesis 1:27 Gen2: 24:Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. Gen 1:17: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created He them, male and female created He them. He avoids Adam or Eve or Eden and says in Matthew 19:4,5 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Do you see? You have to remember He was talking to Jews and so used the material they were familiar with. Yet He was quite confortable ignoring Mosaic laws and the Sabbath the Jews held as 'sacred'. Do you know how many times He was caught ignoring the Sabbath? If God made the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th, and the 7th day actually came from God to honour God by, do you imagine Jesus would disregard the Sabbath? No, he would 'honour' his father with observing the Sabbath. In fact, if he were fake, he would make a show of doing so. If he disregards the Sabbath it could mean a few things. Like perhaps He knew the Jewish '6-days of creation, 1 day of rest' Genesis story was bogus. As were Adam and Eve. Though maybe I don't get you, and you can clarify how Matthew 19:4,5 endorses the existence of Adam, Eve, Eden, Fruit, and that death and suffering came into the world through Adam? He not only ignores them both, in four entire gospels where his mission to bear away the sins of the world is continually expounded on, he does not mention the Eden story or any of the characters ONCE. Which is strange if Adam is the cause of the sin he came to bear away. The Matthew verses only buttress what I was trying to say. Yes, I quite agree Storm had a religious childhood. And that he may have 'drawn' from that. I see what you're saying and you may be right. Recall we were all raised as children in one religion or the other, though, and that few children were rasied as atheists. If there isn't an external reality outside our beliefs, as an atheist, an adult, and a university professor no less, none of the things he saw should have happened to him. He should have gotten the oblivion he expected if our beliefs is all that determines what happens when we die. The name 'Jesus' is just an anglicized version of His Jewish name. But there was no other name that Storm knew to call, and the nudge to call came from outside him. Christ could not come till Storm called because it has to be a choice. The fact remains that it's only Christians who accept who He was when He came here, and that gives them a bit of an edge. Nevertheless Christ doesn't belong to Christians alone. He did not indicate how He saves other people, but that others are saved is certain. I absolutely believe no one can get to God without Him. Human beings have been here for hundreds of thousands of years. He just came 2ooo years ago. Did humanity start getting saved 2000 years ago? Did the laws of justice and mercy and compassion and sowing and reaping and making choices come into effect two thousand years ago? Of course not. David, who died centuries before the birth of Jesus, wrote a psalm asking for the joy of his salvation to be restored. Christians simply don't know enough to presume to do the work of Christ for Him and determine some formula by which they are saved and others roast in 'an eternity of hellfire.' He said no man cometh to God except through Him. He said broad is the way that leads to destruction, narrow is the way that leads to life. Christians take Christianity to be the 'narrow way', and all other religions the 'broad way' and 'destruction' to be an eternity in hellfire. Never mind Christianity hadn't been invented when He was talking. Who said He was talking religions at all? He absolutely was not. Honestly, for a hundred and one reasons that have nothing to do with religion, I completely believe this Being to be who He says He is. Please read Storm's book first. When you read the book you'll see that, apart from the name 'Jesus', which is the only name he knew, nothing that happened in the NDE conformed to traditional Christian beliefs of what happens after people die, so it wasn't childhood sunday school talking. You'll be a little surprised at the questions asked and the answers given. And the story doesn't end with that NDE, but continued while he'd been returned and was back home and at work. I searched for Moslem NDEs a long while back and got a few, but they're scarce because Moslems bury their dead very, very quickly. |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by nuclearboy(m): 11:42pm On Jul 12, 2010 |
@Mad_Max: Sure you're not one of the pastors who's got it right? Strange when its strange to find someone who actually reasons |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by ePAYSYSTEM(m): 3:23pm On Jul 13, 2010 |
Any body can dream. Dreams may have sources that are not of God. Most times dreams do come from what we thought of before going to bed. Someone had told you that he would kill you and you started pondering over that. The night that follows, lo and behold, you have a dream of someone running after you with machete. Dreams may also not have special meanings. Some dreams come from the Wicked one and his wicked spirits. these dreams may have bad consequences. God used dreams in time past and no longer today, so do not be deceived when a dream seams so promising and you think its of God. Check out these: Heb. 1:1,2; 1 Cor. 13:8; 2 Tim. 3:16,17 and 1 Tim. 4:1 shows that some will pay attention to misleading utterances and teaching of demons that include Dreams and their interpretations. God has not given dreams and portents to Christiandom Clergies of today, mark that: Jer. 29:8,9 ask questions about Dreams to Jehovah's witnesses, you sure have an answer or get to watchtower . org |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by MyJoe: 4:30pm On Jul 13, 2010 |
@Mad_Max Fabulous write-up, first-class reasoning! I'm ordering the book and will endeavour to make out time to read it. I was looking to get your views on that oft quoted verse used to support "Christ quoted from Genesis". Looking forward to more and other topics of discussion you have. ePAYSYSTEM:Can you expound on this? ePAYSYSTEM:I am lost as to how you know know Jer. 29:8,9 refer to "Christendom Clergies". Can you explain? |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by MyJoe: 11:44am On Jul 16, 2010 |
Mad_Max:This one struck me the most. Reading from someone with a non-Christian background and then the depth of what she claims she saw were something. Mad_Max:This story is rich. While I have strong reservations about a few assertions, I find it compelling. Mad_Max:This one is intriguing. It looks rather like the Revelation of John in many respects. In fact, it’s the Revelation of John couched in different words and given a certain kind of interpretation. At a point it felt like I was reading the four horsemen of the apocalypse once again. Maybe he read too much Revelation or he was actually shown something or something else I can’t think of. For one reason, I am particularly interested in his background. Self-generated? Likely. Anyway, I don’t have a clue what those visions he saw mean and I am generally as skeptical about his experience as the others. Mad_Max:Yeah. We can’t set great store by this one. |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by MadMax1(f): 5:01pm On Jul 16, 2010 |
There are millions of those things, actually. Worldwide. Have you ever noticed that people who are unusually kind and loving tend to die young? They usually don't grow old. It happens in every culture. people have long seen the phenomenon and there are proverbs about it.'The good die young, the wicked linger, etc'. Their journey is done and they go to be with God. Illness or an accident is allowed to claim their lives. Their families mourn and people are grieved becasue the person was 'so nice!'. They know their families are grieving but they're in unspeakable bliss with God, in a universe of pure pleasure beyond mortal imagining. Nothing will induce their return to this world. Sometimes the grieving is so much they might appear to a loved one in a dream or waking vision and say,'Stop grieving. It's indescribably fantastic here!'. They're really lucky, and we here are the ones they really, really pity. Many atheists don't actually want to know if there's a God or not. They enjoy living life on their own terms and think all that will change if they ever take the question of God seriously. There might be all sorts of new 'religious' rules and all that. But the rules are the same for us all and have never changed. They operate irrespective of background or religious belief. We're all going to die biological deaths. We were never meant to stay here permanently. God made us from the same eternal spirit fabric that He/She/It is made of, and we might leave this world, but we never die. There is a verse somewhere in the bible that made me raise a brow when I saw it. It's true about God: 'I have foreknown you from the foundation of the world.' Our memories are veiled here because we can't function here if we remember. You have a name that isn't the one your parents gave you but the one He gave you when He made you, and when you leave this world of flesh, you will gradually remember everything. It'll be weird. Mellen Benedict This guy has a non-Christian background. He was dying of terminal cancer, was aware of NDEs and asked that his dead body be left undisturbed for some time after death. When he died of the cancer his wishes were respected. He was dead for almost 2 hours. When he returned the cancer was cured. His NDE is fascinating. http://www.near-death.com/experiences/reincarnation04.html George Rodonaia This guy was dead for three days after a car accident and was in the morgue. He was an atheist at the time. He came back when they were cutting into him during an autopsy. If he'd been Moslem, no coming back. He'd have been buried. Needless to say, that was the end of his atheism. http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence10.html Group NDE Here are two examples of when a group of people die or almost die together and share an NDE. http://www.near-death.com/group.html Ranelle Wallace This is a Christian NDE. The first I've posted. The private plane she was in crashed. http://www.near-death.com/wallace.html Rev Kenneth Hagin. This happened when he was 15 and a Southern Baptist Christian. http://www.near-death.com/forum/nde/000/90.html |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by DeepSight(m): 5:31pm On Jul 16, 2010 |
Max, I am at odds that you appear to cede some level of credence to these very personal experiences (which are experienced only by the individuals asserting so) but are eager to dismiss very personal experiences of extra terrestial interaction (UFOs) which are also experienced only by the individuals asserting so). Why the bias? Is the one any more incredible than the other? Mind you, I personally believe in both. Why do you type in blue? ? ? |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by MadMax1(f): 6:47pm On Jul 16, 2010 |
I don't believe I dismissed the alien abduction stories. I said it wasn't something external but likely internal, and has been going on for a long time, with the scenarious changing according to the motifs of the times. In the middle ages they were taken to 'castles', in the space age we're now in it's 'space ships' they're taken to. NDEs are a universal phenonemon, UFO abductions are not, but are mostly an American/European thing. And the 'aliens' that abduct them tend to resemble whatever alien models Hollywood is churning out in movies. The complex crop circle hoax that went on for decades before the hoaxers confessed, which spawned a huge alien culture on two continents, should serve as a warning for the gullible. Something may be going on but it has nothing to do with physical aliens or UFO ships here. UFOs are not a matter of belief or religion, but of science and hard evidence. You can't seriously ask anyone to 'believe' in UFOs without any hard physical evidence, the way people would believe in God without empirical evidence. It is simply not the same thing. I told you the US military were using sophisticated weather balloons with all sorts of gadgetry to spy on others, and it's these that many people saw. They used weather balloons because it gave them an excuse to be wherever the wanted. They're often spotted near military installations and the homes and offices of diplomats. Ten dozen things have been called UFOs, including a farmer's silo, a car coming down a hilly road and clouds. The US military encouraged these alien UFO scenarios because it was great misdirection for their activities. When they first heard of UFOs they couldn't at first make the connection with their own spycrafts and were alarmed because they thought it was the Russians. I'll take UFOs seriously when someone completely unacquainted with American movies and the mass suggestion from an alien abduction culture, reports a UFO abduction b aliens. From his description we'll get what he's saying and know it's an alien abduction. Say, an Igbo farmer on his way to his farm. Anyone in a village with no American movies, television or magazines. But no, no such thing has ever happened. So, people dead for hours or days and returning is the same as being physically 'abducted by aliens.'? Were the 'alien abductees' dead? Was it their spirits that were abducted? Did they leave this world? NO, NO, and er, NO.We went over this at length and I'm not getting into it again. When hard evidence is in I'll review my opinions but without evidence they remain unchanged. It's not religious phenomena and doesn't transform into religious phenomena because we're discussing it in the religion section. Oh, the blue thing. A habit I picked up. |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by DeepSight(m): 7:22pm On Jul 16, 2010 |
[retracted] |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by Curiousmind(m): 7:45pm On Jul 16, 2010 |
THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS WITHIN YOU Fellow forumite, stop researching on other peoples NDE, OBE NDE, OBE can be achieve on a daily basis with proper Training of soul faculty which is Non material and is also beyond The Mind, Intelegence. That is Thy real self (SOUL) but funy enough, souls in physical bodies (HUMANS) on Earth are scared of their True identity, They are scared of death of the physical body which is inevitable in spiritual Ecosystem Soul is neither Male or Female. It is pure light, Immortal etc Some of The rules In NDE, OBE Training are :- UNCONDITIONAL LOVE :- It is a Great Tool that ascend the lost soul back to GOD whom is pure love KNOW THY REAL SELF :- Thy real self is immaterial, not of matter but of pure light TEST ALL SPIRITS :- On souls ascension to GOD. When confronted with Spiritual beings impersonators. Chant a Holy Name from any of The Holy Books and Observe The Spiritual being reactions BE A GOOD OBSERVER :- Always authenticate informations from The invisible worlds because what is seen or heard can be deceptive NDE, OBE is so real that when some frequent light Travelers comes back from the Immaterial Universe to Their physical body, They hardly differentiate between physical Experience and NDE until They pinch Their Nostrils. If in NDE or OBE, They can breath while both nostrils are closed but if They are in their physical body, They cant breath when both nostrils are closed This brief explanation is to inform You how real the Experiences are whether physical Experience Or NDE, OBE Thanks Curiousmind |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by MadMax1(f): 9:46am On Jul 17, 2010 |
Hey there. We're not talking of 'soul travel' and 'astral projection' and other occult stuff here. It is what happens to everyday people who die, irrespective of belief or religion, that is under discussion. Thanks. |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by MyJoe: 12:40pm On Jul 19, 2010 |
Mad_Max:Interesting. Fascinating. A very intelligent mind going through an extraordinary spiritual experience. He confirms(?) a few things I have always felt sure of. But his story is fantastic on several levels. First and foremost, it’s going to be very hard for my head to process the biggest assertion of the story, that we are God, having the seen the evil human beings are capable of. But I guess that’s just his interpretation of what he saw. No, Mr. Benedict, we are not God at all! God is out there. I also find his treatment of the subject of evil quite inadequate. In fact, it is possible to argue that Mr Benedict dismisses evil by some of his assertions. I agree with him that man is inherently good at his core, but some of us sink real low! That’s a fact. It’s also strange to read we exist from forever to forever. Neither am I as optimistic as him on the ecological system. But, then, what do I know? Mad_Max:I am yet to read a better story that this excellent testimony to the infinite, indefinable nature of God. Also reminds us, in case we failed to realise, that NDEs are finite and subjective. That is, at NDEs and other mystical experiences, you get only glimpses, not anything close to the whole. Probably explains all the seeming confusion. He concludes wonderfully by admonishing us to be patient with all that is unresolved. Formulate your questions and find joy in living with them! Can you beat that? For, you see, as long you love – love humans, love nature, love animals – nothing else really matters. What an excellent man, Rodonaia! Mad_Max:Joined by lightening! The second experience is spectacular and explains a lot. The three of them seeing the same thing with the same eyes but at the same time seeing it as different things! Mad_Max:Another great story. Full of useful lessons for everyone. I have explored the site and read many interesting stories and some questions posed by skeptics. Some of these stories are so compelling I think the least one can do is have an open mind about them. I would actually like to read Nigerian experiences. Perhaps I will one day get lucky and even hear from someone I know! |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by ladej(m): 12:30am On Jul 21, 2010 |
brodas and sistas i have learnt a lot here, thanks for sharing. where does 'jazz' fit in all these? |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by MadMax1(f): 3:31am On Jul 21, 2010 |
Seems everyone pretty much filter experiences through preconceived ideas. Like the Jewish lady, who likely had a true reality encounter but thought the being she was taken to was God. No one has seen God. And come back to tell about it. It's the point of no return, in the best possible way. So the guy who says we're God is just filtering. Or maybe it's the best way he can explain things we have no words for here. Like when Christ says He's the Son of God. It's the NDE-ers who put labels and name tags to whoever they encounter. I've questions. Will post them later. ladej: |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by MyJoe: 3:51pm On Jul 21, 2010 |
True. Another possibility that may offer some explanations is that people get to see what they are interested in. I guess that is where the "intermediate reality" thing kicks in. For example, it is the atheists, like that Jewish woman, who always talk about seeing God or being on the verge of seeing him, perhaps because that is the first thing that drops into their mind once they find themselves in a spiritual realm. Mr Benedict, who read for an NDE and got one, had a very scientific mind and that was all he saw - galaxies and big bangs and chemistry and all. There is the other guy who obviously read too much of the book of Revelation. ladej:I have asked a somewhat related question. You may want to read this thread and share your views. |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by ladej(m): 2:18am On Jul 22, 2010 |
my broda thanks. off i go, |
| Re: The Problem With Dreams, Visions And Clairvoyance by ladej(m): 2:19am On Jul 22, 2010 |
Mad_Max:cheers  |
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