God's truths are eternal and he has been talking to men since time began, so naturally some of their teachings predate the birth of Christ as Jesus by thousands of years.  He came a mere two thousand years ago. I was fascinated to find some things that are taught in Lamaist Buddhism verified by present-day American Christians in their after-death experiences. And these Christians have no idea! Meanwhile, these Lamaist teachings are thousands of years old.

Another thing is, and I don't expect you to get this, Christ Himself teaches you what is true and what isn't. If you're thirsty, he leads to himself in stages. Who God is, and his laws do not change and never will. It's human beings that get busy projecting their worst onto God when they want to justify their evil. What demonstrable good comes of religious killing? Notice how all religious killing benefits only the killer? To get something he covets, or to satisfy his blood lust or an excess of religious zeal, the stuff of psychosis. What is it to God that you want 70 vaginas or your neigbour's land or virgins from Midian? But they've no qualms about slandering his character to justify their atrocities. Once you know the laws that undergirds His creation, and you understand a little of what God is, what is false and transgresses it is remarkably easy to see. It's like the laws and penal codes of a country. Once you undertstand it, the criminals are very easy to see, because they break these laws. He may kill his neighbour for a promotion or to get his wife or a contract. He may say he hears a voice in his head and it's the voice of God and it told him to kill. (Many of
these psychos are in psychiatric hospitals but don't imagine it's a recent phenomenon. People have been hearing 'voices' that tell them to do evil for thousands of years.)  How the criminal justifies his actions is irrelevant, we know a crime has taken place.

So are the laws of God and its transgressions instantly apparent. They hold true for all creation, all men, in all places, for all time. Detecting what departs from it, what is false and what violates it is as easy as detecting a criminal that's broken the law.

Mad_Max:

I'll answer you in two posts.

You want to know why I believe some aspects of the bible but disregard others. You think, because people have been indoctrinated to think it's 'holy' and 'infallible', you must then either believe EVERYTHING it says or nothing at all? ALL OR NOTHING is a false position, a false dichotomy. You must realise that human beings are the most unreliable 'inspired' witnesses you can imagine. We have an incredible capacity to first deceive ourselves, and then go out and deceive others. The bible is a collection of writings by human beings, most of whom are humble enough to acknowledge this fact by NOT claiming divine authorship. From where then comes the absurd premise that I must believe every word ordinary human beings wrote as divine and infallible? If THEY claim divine authorship, then the duty falls on them to PROVE beyond all reasonable doubt, to supply irrefutable evidence that they are, in fact, channeling God and not merely relaying their own perspective on things.But then most of them do NOT claim divine authorship. From whence then comes the absurdity of their infallibility? Nowhere but indcotrination. And sometimes, plain
laziness on the side of Christians. Some so-called religious authority says, 'Here are some doctrines to believe. Thank you and goodbye', and they sit by the doctrines till they die.The FACT that the bible has been tampered with countless times doesn't help its infallibity case either. It was with the Roman Church for one thousand five hundred years before other people took it from them and made it public, so they had plenty of time to do whatever they wanted with it.

I know what you're asking next. If the bible has been tampered with how do I know what to believe and what to accept?
VERY EASY, that one. There are many ways. There are many scholars in different countries across many ages whose field of expertise is biblial history, verification and textual analysis. They've spent centuries at their work and there is an incredible amount of material available on the subject. They tend to agree on what the additions are and when it was added. One scholar is Bart Earhman, an American bible scholar. He has an ax to grind with Christianity becuase of his indoctrinated fundamentalist Christian past and his arguments are sometimes slanted, but his credentials as a scholar is SOLID adn his research and books very valuable. There are and have been many scholars in bible veracity for hundreds of years. They don't tell me what to believe though. Their reearch is helpful in separating what biblical authors actually wrote from the many, many additions and mistranslations. It's doubtful they'll ever get them all, but they're getting there.

Another thing is, God's laws and truths are eternal and are not confined to any one religion or tribe but are ABOVE religions, and hold true for ALL his creation. God has been revealing himself to men since time began. From the little they receive, religions spread like weed. Bear in mind that the human mind (brain) is complicated, as are human motivations, so not every truth or vision or whatever is God-inspired. Some are just outright religious hoax because you will always find people ready and willing to believe anything. A media house in Australia set out to see if they could create a religion from scratch. They secretly invented a religion, found a charismatic 'mystic' to be its proponent and launched the experiment. It succeeded beautifully. This 'mystic' attracted followers from many different countries, devoted to the death. When the media house sponsoring the hoax revelead it to the public, many of the adherents refused to believe it was a untrue and stuck fast to that religion. Invented right before their eyes! With how much more salt should you take so-called holy books and religious traditions that has had thousands of years to accrue credibility
and glamour and, er, 'infallibility'.

I'm not saying all religions are false. They're not. There are countless religious hoaxes and charlatans. But there are religious truths and the genuine articles as well. The fact that some are false presupposes that some must be true. Something is false only because there is the genuine to compare it against, otherwise it's not false at all. God is true and real and He forever reveals himself to us. But human beings are what they are, and there are no such thing as 'infallible' or holy books.

Hmmmmm. . . .I am truly short of words. . .I very much understated what you are saying, but how do you reconcile all these things?. . . .

Mad_Max:

God's truths are eternal and he has been talking to men since time began, so naturally some of their teachings predate the birth of Christ as Jesus by thousands of years.  He came a mere two thousand years ago. I was fascinated to find some things that are taught in Lamaist Buddhism verified by present-day American Christians in their after-death experiences. And these Christians have no idea! Meanwhile, these Lamaist teachings are thousands of years old.

Another thing is, and I don't expect you to get this, Christ Himself teaches you what is true and what isn't. If you're thirsty, he leads to himself in stages. Who God is, and his laws do not change and never will. It's human beings that get busy projecting their worst onto God when they want to justify their evil. What demonstrable good comes of religious killing? Notice how all religious killing benefits only the killer? To get something he covets, or to satisfy his blood lust or an excess of religious zeal, the stuff of psychosis. What is it to God that you want 70 vaginas or your neigbour's land or virgins from Midian? But they've no qualms about slandering his character to justify their atrocities. Once you know the laws that undergirds His creation, and you understand a little of what God is, what is false and transgresses it is remarkably easy to see. It's like the laws and penal codes of a country. Once you undertstand it, the criminals are very easy to see, because they break these laws. He may kill his neighbour for a promotion or to get his wife or a contract. He may say he hears a voice in his head and it's the voice of God and it told him to kill. (Many of
these psychos are in psychiatric hospitals but don't imagine it's a recent phenomenon. People have been hearing 'voices' that tell them to do evil for thousands of years.)  How the criminal justifies his actions is irrelevant, we know a crime has taken place.

So are the laws of God and its transgressions instantly apparent. They hold true for all creation, all men, in all places, for all time. Detecting what departs from it, what is false and what violates it is as easy as detecting a criminal that's broken the law.

Very nicely put, Are you a pantheist, since you believe that religions are neither completely right nor completely wrong? Or have you completely separated religions from God?. . . .

That's complex territory. I'm just beginning my relationship with God. But I'm human, so I too have a capactiy to deceive myself ad others and transmute my own wishful thinking and ideas and opinion into the Voice of God or the Inspiration of God. People have been doing it for ages and it's useless to imagine yourself immune. That's why it's SO, SO important to let God do all the leading and to constantly examine yourself and your ideas and DEMAND PROOF for everything. EVERYTHING.

That being said, I haven't separated God from religions. In spite of that pesky human factor, religions are vehicles meant to take us to God. But many of them have substituted unverifiable doctrine and religious traditions for God himself, and made religion itself the destination and not a means to an end.  You can find God in almost all religions. Depending on who you are and where you are in your journey, different religions help you at different stages. The one you're born into is an accident of birth and has nothing to do with what's real. You're supposed to look for God and let him lead you to where you'll perceive him most clearly. For me, it just happened to be Christianity. For others it may be to Islam or Buddhism that they're led. I don't for one second believe Christ the exclusive property of Christians. He is for ALL MEN. Christians know him as Jesus. We don't know in what guise or form, or by what name other religions and races and tribes know Him. We don't know how he saves men, irrespective of their religion or lack of it, but our thoughts and actions and choices and beliefs have plenty to do with it.

How He interacts with all creation is something I'm still learning and don't yet fully understand. But others have gone far ahead and know all these things. But those who think they and their pastor and their local church are going to heaven, while the six billion other souls on this earth are bound for hell because they didn't happen to be born into Christianity are dead wrong. That, I know for sure.

@Myjoe

MyJoe:

I would think so. I suspect that someone who grew up in an environment where such things are not nurtured, or, like in my case, actively discouraged, would not have such endowments or would lose them due to disuse for the reason of his environment whatever spiritual maturity or endowments he may have been born with.

I don't really get what you meant in the above. The above is your reply to my assertion that "Dreams, visions and clairvoyance have nothing to do with spiritual maturity."
I suspect that you misunderstood me so let me clarify myself. The fact the someone is endowed with the gift of clairvoyance, visions, dreams and etc does not mean that that person is matured spiritually. Spiritual maturity expresses itself in the actions of the individual. A spiritual matured person will be filled love for God and all creatures of God, such a person will not lie, cheat or still. However, such a person may or may not be endowed with the gift of clairvoyance.
There are also people endowed with this gift and people who have learnt to be clairvoyant through occult training, yet in their actions you could see that they are far from spiritual maturity, ie they lack love. Some even use these abilities to do evil; back home in Nigerian, during secondary school days, I know a guy who wants learn astral travel so that he can pry on girls without being seen.
Only when the gifted person has attained some level of spiritual maturity can the clairvoyance become a blessing, thus a gift.
I can go on and on but let me stop here for now.

MyJoe:

I do not believe this. In fact, I think you are off the mark. Everyone has ordinary dreams, but not everyone has the kind of dreams we are talking about hereabout.

Everyone at least once in their life times must have had such experiences; but the problem is that sometimes the experience is so natural that the person considers it as an ordinary occurrence.
Some people have experiences of the beyond during their sleep, that they don't even remember when they wake up.
Consider the story that m_nwankwo told about a woman seeing her dead husband (my grandmother had a similar experience). Such seeing still belongs to clairvoyance, and if the person she saw was not her husband, she may never have learnt that the person she was already dead.
I will tell you a story that my Russian supervisor once told me. One time before she left Russia, during winter She went skiing on a remote town in Russia; and she got lost in a forest. Exhausted after hours of trying to find her way out of the forest, she sat down and awaited her death as the cold air sent chills up her spine; the winter that year was very severe. At the point of her hopelessness, a unknown man approached her and lead her out of the forest, back to her hotel. She was too thankfull and exhausted to ask the man for his contact information.
She considered this experience nothing extraordinary, until years later she went back to the town to ski again, this time she lodged in a different hotel. On getting inside the lobby of the hotel, she saw the picture of the man who had saved her years ago. She inquired on the whereabouts of the man so that she could reward him for saving her. To her greatest suprise they told her the man died five years ago, which was two years before he saved her. So the man was already dead when she saw him, yet she considered it normal; had she not returned to that town and lodged in that particuler hotel, she may never have known that the man that saved her was dead; she would have believed that she had never been clairvoyant. She was certain it was the same man that had lead her out of the forest; the cloths he wore were the same cloths he wore on the picture.

This is an experience the shock my Supervisor to very depth of her soul; because prior to that, she was an atheist who didn't even believe in after life, nither did she believe in clairvoyance and etc. This experience does mean that the woman was spiritually matured, she didn't even believe in God at the time she had this experience.

You probably have had experiences which you considered ordinary without knowing that what you saw was with your ethereal or astral eyes. Do you know that some of your dreams you don't even consciously remember when you are awake. Sometimes the promptings that you have along the day or your insights in some things are as a result of your experiencing during your sleep. Some times during sleep the soul leaves the physical body and continue its experiencing; but sometimes when you wake up you wont consciously remember your experiences. This is also why its unnecessary and wrong to employ occult training to learn to soul travel. All these things will come to you naturally when you are ready for them; and in naturalness lies the greatest protection from harm. Occult trainings will not afford you such protection, and it happens that some occultists suffer harms and attacks on their ethereal body without suspecting it.

Also there are so many children who are claivoyant, they see many things that adults do not see; but they dont even know that adults do not see these things. I know I was very clairvoyant as a child. It is due to the ignorance of this that some primitive tribes label some children as wicthes, some go as far as killing such children. There is nothing so extraodinary in seeing the beyond(Etherial and astral), eveybody living on earth, has an etherial and an astral body, and somtimes the etherial eyes or the astral eyes open and the individual behold the etheial or astral. This has nothing to do with spiritual maturity; although sometimes peoples eyes could be opened as a gift from above so that they could see something in the beyond. examples: some people who met Jesus, their etherial eyes were opened for a while so that they could see Jesus's bright etherial body and consequently believe in Jesus. Some were so gifted(called ones) that even thier spiritual eyes opened and they saw the cross radiating from Jesus, as well as the dove above him; and they bore witness to these signs which are infallable signs of a son of God.

Also expereinces(shocks and desperation) can also cause the etherial or astral eyes to open, such as the case of my supervisor.  Also the condition of ones physical body can also play a role claivoyance and phychic abilities. Mediums, for example have the type of blood radiations that allows souls in the beyond to manifeast through them. And usually people's bood radiations of people change during old age, permiting them to gradually pecieve the beyond as they approach nearer to death. But some people, even at young ages posses the type of blood radiation that allows them to pecieve the beyond more than the average person. This is why occultisits go on a special diet and use some herbs or incents in the training to be clairvoyant. These diets, incents and herbs, once injested affect the blood radiations. In one native american indian tribe, a man seeking to see a vision must wonder in the wilderness for days without food, at the point of exhaustion he usually see a vision; it's easy to undertand why this happens. The wondering in the wilderness without food affects the physical body in such a way that the blood radiation changes, rendering the individual sensitive to virabtions in the beyond. Fasting and meditation can also render the same effect. Also this is why certain deits have great effects on the schizophranic. Clairvoyance and mediumship have a lot to do with the blood radiation; since it is the blood radiation that binds the soul to the physical body, when altered, it can also unbind the soul. This also happens naturaly during sleep, the bilogical process slowdown and the radiation of the blood changes. All these things have very little to do with spiritual maturity; anybody can through occult training render his blood radiations as such, this usually involves slowing down the bilogical process and weakening the physical body.

I can go on and on and on but inorder not to stray too much from the point I better stop here.

MyJoe:


Thanks for your insightful perspectives.

Thank you so much. I appreciate the fact that you read my post. And also, thanks for a wonderful thread.

^^^
This

MyJoe:
I would think so. I suspect that someone who grew up in an environment where such things are not nurtured, or, like in my case, actively discouraged, would not have such endowments or would lose them due to disuse for the reason of his environment whatever spiritual maturity or endowments he may have been born with.

was actually written to agree with and reinforce what you said about dreams, visions and clairvoyance not being reflective of spiritual maturity. No disagreements there. The only thing I expressed disagreement with in that post was your assertion that Everyone has these experiences.

Your last post has greatly expounded on this and made some things clearer. Thanks again.

A media house in Australia set out to see if they could create a religion from scratch. They secretly invented a religion, found a charismatic 'mystic' to be its proponent and launched the experiment. It succeeded beautifully. This 'mystic' attracted followers from many different countries, devoted to the death. When the media house sponsoring the hoax revelead it to the public, many of the adherents refused to believe it was a untrue and stuck fast to that religion. Invented right before their eyes! With how much more salt should you take so-called holy books and religious traditions that has had thousands of years to accrue credibility
and glamour and, er, 'infallibility'.

please let us not resort to exaggeration and misinformation here. what was the religion created? when? whats the name of the media house? any link to such a claim?

MyJoe:

^^^
This was actually written to agree with and reinforce what you said about dreams, visions and clairvoyance not being reflective of spiritual maturity. No disagreements there. The only thing I expressed disagreement with in that post was your assertion that Everyone has these experiences.

Your last post has greatly expounded on this and made some things clearer. Thanks again.

@MyJoe

Thanks a lot. Please forgive me for misunderstanding your post.

Remain blessed

@Curiousmind

Curiousmind:

The science of spiritual Automatic writing has been in existence for Milleniums and it is not a new age practice per say

"Modern psychic science," is just a collective term that I grouped all those practices into. By the term "Modern psychic science," I do not mean that such practices are new age. I know that such practices have been in existence for a long time.

Curiousmind:


The Grail message Teachings stoped on the soul plane. They Teach You that it is not possible to be one with Divinity

Eckankar Teachings stoped on the 12th plane, They Teach You to be co-worker with God

I am not here to compare Eckanker with Grail Message; I will never do such because their teachings are completely different.

The word "soul plane" does not exist in the Grail Message, the book never used that expression.

Comparing the planes of creation as taught by the Grail message with the planes of Eckanker will lead one to errors; because they both use the terminology "plane", what they refer to as a plane differs. What Eckanker describes as a plane may not necessarily be what the Grail Message discribes as a plane.

I will give you an example: Two people(Mr. Apple and Mr. Orange) goes to mars to explain to martians about the earth. Mr. Apple who has been all over the earth, teaches martians that there are 7 continents on the earth, thus 7 major lands. While Mr. Orange, who know only about Nigeria, teach the martians that there are 36 states on earth. Due to the fact that Mr Orange has not been to other parts of the earth, he considers Nigeria the whole earth, thus he asserts that there are 36 lands on earth. He considers the 36 states of Nigeria to be the whole earth. The martians may think that Mr. Orange knows more about the earth since he talks about 36 lands while Mr. Apple talks about 7 lands. But both men are using the terminology (land) to refer to two different things; one calls a state a land, while the other calls a continent land. So it will be wrong to directly compare them or judge their knowledge of the earth by the number of lands that is contained in their description of the earth. The truth is that Mr. Apple knows far more about the earth than Mr. Orange, and what Mr. Orange calls 36 lands does not even consituite one land in Mr. Apple's  teaching; but some martians may get caught-up in the terminolgy (Land) and think the Mr. Orange knows more because he talks about many lands.

This above is just an example to illustrate a point. I know that there martians do not exist.

One has to study both teachins very well and grasp them before he can make the judgement that you made in your post. Comparing them is like compering apples and oranges.

Thanks a lot.

I'd resolved to just be a spectator at all the enchanting posts on here especially as I know next to nothing about all this stuff. Frankly I feel like picking some brains. I just couldn't help ejaculating my pleasure with this thread.

Noetic, since you don't know Max, you are excused to take what she says with a pinch of salt or a bucket for that matter. But your last post was uncalled for. I know she'll probably have my head for forming Superman but I can't help it.

You're going to Tibet, Vesc? Frakking cold there, baby. No one will tell you before you'll skeddadle back to the tropics.

noetic17:

please let us not resort to exaggeration and misinformation here. what was the religion created? when? whats the name of the media house? any link to such a claim?

Read some books on the admirable James Randi, who teamed up with Australia's 60 Minutes producers to invent the religious Hoax called Carlos. His neighbour, Jose Lois Alvarez, a young artist, was  offered the role of Carlos, and he was intrigued and accepted. He played his part to perfection. Randi and his foundation have done a fantastic amount of work for decades, exposing religious fraud and so-called psychics and fake faith healers who leech the gullible of their money. People like  Ernest Angley and W Grant and Uri Geller and Peter Popoff and many more. Popoff, a faith healer, declared bankruptcy after Randi exposed him as a fraud. The objective of the religious hoax they deliberately created with the Australian media house was to forcibly show the public how very easy religious fraud is, how people are desperate to believe and don't care what they're believing. They even had a holy book which Randi and Alvarez came up with, full of vague, mystical sounding words, saying nothing at all. Carlos travelled to different countries and won converts. Not only were the publicn taken in but many of the world's major media were behind him, and promoted him. The whole thing got far bigger than Randi and 60 minutes coould've imagined. When the hoax was revealed, some of them refused to depart from the fake religion, declaring that detractors were after Carlos and they would stick with him to the end. The gullible media houses were furious with the Australian producers. Imagine what 'Carlos' could have done, the money he would have made, the branches of his religion he would have in many countries, if he had been a genuine fake mystic instead of an experiment.

Do some finding out about James Randi and the incredible work he's done.  His foundation offers one million dollars to anyone who can demonstrate the supernatural or paranormal beyond all doubt. No one has won that money yet.

Whle he has exposed many religous fraud and countless so-called psychics, he has once or twice verified strange abilities in people, but these people don't claim any supernatural, paranormal or religious power, much less try to get a following and milk their converts.

Go do some reading for a change. There are hundreds of religious hoaxes. Don't get all hot and bothered over one.

Mad_Max:

You're going to Tibet, Vesc? Frakking cold there, baby. No one will tell you before you'll skeddadle back to the tropics.

Read some books on the admirable James Randi, who teamed up with Australia's 60 Minutes producers to invent the religious Hoax called Carlos. His neighbour, Jose Lois Alvarez, a young artist, was  offered the role of Carlos, and he was intrigued and accepted. He played his part to perfection. Randi and his foundation have done a fantastic amount of work for decades, exposing religious fraud and so-called psychics and fake faith healers who leech the gullible of their money. People like  Ernest Angley and W Grant and Uri Geller and Peter Popoff and many more. Popoff, a faith healer, declared bankruptcy after Randi exposed him as a fraud. The objective of the religious hoax they deliberately created with the Australian media house was to forcibly show the public how very easy religious fraud is, how people are desperate to believe and don't care what they're believing. They even had a holy book which Randi and Alvarez came up with, full of vague, mystical sounding words, saying nothing at all. Carlos travelled to different countries and won converts. Not only were the publicn taken in but many of the world's major media were behind him, and promoted him. The whole thing got far bigger than Randi and 60 minutes coould've imagined. When the hoax was revealed, some of them refused to depart from the fake religion, declaring that detractors were after Carlos and they would stick with him to the end. The gullible media houses were furious with the Australian producers. Imagine what 'Carlos' could have done, the money he would have made, the branches of his religion he would have in many countries, if he had been a genuine fake mystic instead of an experiment.

Do some finding out about James Randi and the incredible work he's done.  His foundation offers one million dollars to anyone who can demonstrate the supernatural or paranormal beyond all doubt. No one has won that money yet.

Whle he has exposed many religous fraud and countless so-called psychics, he has once or twice verified strange abilities in people, but these people don't claim any supernatural, paranormal or religious power, much less try to get a following and milk their converts.

Go do some reading for a change. There are hundreds of religious hoaxes. Don't get all hot and bothered over one.

Scientology is a new religion that began as early as 1952, It was created out of thin air like all other religions, but still has a lot of followers. . . .The religion worships a God called Xenu that was created in the imagination of the founder of the religion. . .There are millions of scientolgist in the world today. . . .

Mad_Max:

You're going to Tibet, Vesc? Frakking cold there, baby. No one will tell you before you'll skeddadle back to the tropics.

Read some books on the admirable James Randi, who teamed up with Australia's 60 Minutes producers to invent the religious Hoax called Carlos. His neighbour, Jose Lois Alvarez, a young artist, was  offered the role of Carlos, and he was intrigued and accepted. He played his part to perfection. Randi and his foundation have done a fantastic amount of work for decades, exposing religious fraud and so-called psychics and fake faith healers who leech the gullible of their money. People like  Ernest Angley and W Grant and Uri Geller and Peter Popoff and many more. Popoff, a faith healer, declared bankruptcy after Randi exposed him as a fraud. The objective of the religious hoax they deliberately created with the Australian media house was to forcibly show the public how very easy religious fraud is, how people are desperate to believe and don't care what they're believing. They even had a holy book which Randi and Alvarez came up with, full of vague, mystical sounding words, saying nothing at all. Carlos travelled to different countries and won converts. Not only were the publicn taken in but many of the world's major media were behind him, and promoted him. The whole thing got far bigger than Randi and 60 minutes coould've imagined. When the hoax was revealed, some of them refused to depart from the fake religion, declaring that detractors were after Carlos and they would stick with him to the end. The gullible media houses were furious with the Australian producers. Imagine what 'Carlos' could have done, the money he would have made, the branches of his religion he would have in many countries, if he had been a genuine fake mystic instead of an experiment.

Do some finding out about James Randi and the incredible work he's done.  His foundation offers one million dollars to anyone who can demonstrate the supernatural or paranormal beyond all doubt. No one has won that money yet.

Whle he has exposed many religous fraud and countless so-called psychics, he has once or twice verified strange abilities in people, but these people don't claim any supernatural, paranormal or religious power, much less try to get a following and milk their converts.

Go do some reading for a change. There are hundreds of religious hoaxes. Don't get all hot and bothered over one.

source? links? anything to verify the information above?

noetic17:

source? links? anything to verify the information above? 

Here are some links for you. . .


This link give all the information about the hoax, which was done to see how people love to believe in anything. . . .

http://www.skepdic.com/carlos.html

For Alvarez, the creation of the character "Carlos" was a performance/experiment to see how far he could take his creation, but his purpose was not to make people look foolish. He hoped to liberate them from a false belief. However, the result of the performance seemed to demonstrate how easy it is to create a cult from scratch and how, even when the truth is revealed to them, some still refuse to accept it. The "Carlos" hoax also demonstrated how gullible and uncritical the mass media are when covering paranormal or supernatural topics. Rather than having an interest in exposing the truth, the members of the media were obsessed with "Carlos" the phenomenon and transformed his character from a hoax to a myth. The character Alvarez had so arduously created was transmogrified by the press. The media didn't even need to do any research to have determined that "Carlos" was not genuine. The biggest clue was handed to them on a silver platter: "Carlos" performed for free. He offered crystals from Atlantis for sale, but took orders rather than cash. Every journalist should know that the first sign of an authentic fake guru is greed.

José Alvarez had hoaxed an entire continent with his art. But he had created something that the media and his audiences would take from him and recreate to suit their own needs. One lesson here has to be the magician's refrain: deception requires cooperation. Another lesson might be that the need to believe in something like a "Carlos" is so great in some people that we must despair of them ever being liberated.

Here is more from wikipedia. . . .

In 1988, Randi tested the gullibility of the media by perpetrating a fraud of his own. By teaming up with Australia's 60 Minutes program and by releasing a fake press package, he built up publicity for a spirit channeler named Carlos who was actually artist Jose Alvarez, a friend of Randi. Randi would tell him what to say through sophisticated radio equipment. The media and the public were taken in, as no reporter bothered to check Carlos's credentials and history, which were all fabricated. The hoax was exposed on 60 Minutes; Carlos and Randi explained how they pulled it off

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Randi

mazaje:

Scientology is a new religion that began as early as 1952, It was created out of thin air like all other religions, but still has a lot of followers. . . .The religion worships a God called Xenu that was created in the imagination of the sounder of the religion. . .There are million of scientolgist in the world today. . . .

'Created out of thin air like all other religions'.
You're an atheist so you can be forgiven for thinking all religions are based on hoaxes. Religion itself isn't the be-all. There are people who serve God but detest organized religion and won't be caught dead in a temple or mosque or church. Not everyone needs it.

There are religious hoaxs and those who use existing religions to defraud. While Randi exposed many frauds, he also came across the baffling and bizarre. But those didn't publicize themselves. The one million dollar challenge of his foundation remains untaken not because there aren't those who can prove him wrong, but because the mentality of someone who would go to prove the supernatural to collect a million dollars, and the mentally of those who can actually prove it, are VERY DIFFERENT.  The latter simply do not publicize themselves. You won't find followers, you can pass them by on the street and not know what they're capable of, they won't advertize themselves and you may even know one for years without any inkling of what they can do.

Lamaist monks regard the Western materialistic lifestyle with amazement and contempt. Some of them are so advanced in using their minds to effect changes in the physical and unseen realms. If I told you what they were capable of, you would not believe me, And THEY don't publicize themselves either, not even among other monks. There are people like that the world over.  I can bet you they've ZERO interest in either taking up the challenge, which they'll likely consider foolish, or in anyone's one million dollars. That million dollar challenge does something clever; it brings the fakes out of the woodwork to try and win it.

I am in absolute agreement with the views Just Cool has articulated here.
And just to add to what Mad Max said, I have myself observed a Tai Chi Master in Taiwan - Master Chen, physically move a fellow practitioner forcefully more that 15 feet without actually touching him. This happened in a in a training session. He did this by using/altering his Qi or Chi - the energy field that emanates from, and surrounds every object on Earth - Animate and Inanimate.
Master Chen is the most simple unassuming, humble, courteous man i have ever met. He is small, frail and actually looks weak. Though he has written several best sellers on Tai Chi, you would never know it looking at him. Contrast this to most our our Christian pastors and Faith Healers.

On James Rand and his foundation, his challenge is ridiculous. It is akin to asking the scientific community to prove Darwin's Evolution Theory and Einstein's Relativity Theory beyond all doubt. An impossibility. Let us see if there would be any takers of the million dollar prize.

Mad_Max:

'Created out of thin air like all other religions'.
You're an atheist so you can be forgiven for thinking all religions are based on hoaxes. Religion itself isn't the be-all. There are people who serve God but detest organized religion and won't be caught dead in a temple or mosque or church. Not everyone needs it.

There are religious hoaxs and those who use existing religions to defraud. While Randi exposed many frauds, he also came across the baffling and bizarre. But those didn't publicize themselves. The one million dollar challenge of his foundation remains untaken not because there aren't those who can prove him wrong, but because the mentality of someone who would go to prove the supernatural to collect a million dollars, and the mentally of those who can actually prove it, are VERY DIFFERENT.  The latter simply do not publicize themselves. You won't find followers, you can pass them by on the street and not know what they're capable of, they won't advertize themselves and you may even know one for years without any inkling of what they can do.

Lamaist monks regard the Western materialistic lifestyle with amazement and contempt. Some of them are so advanced in using their minds to effect changes in the physical and unseen realms. If I told you what they were capable of, you would not believe me, And THEY don't publicize themselves either, not even among other monks. There are people like that the world over.  I can bet you they've ZERO interest in either taking up the challenge, which they'll likely consider foolish, or in anyone's one million dollars. That million dollar challenge does something clever; it brings the fakes out of the woodwork to try and win it.   

OK. . .Here is my personal take on all these things, I have had my own personal experiences from people that can do extra ordinary things but unlike most people here, I do not ascribe it to anything supernatural at all since all these things are been done by so many people regardless of their race or religion. . .I have a friend who is from Ireland. He is an atheist but has amazing abilities. . . He is like a fortune teller, He does things that leave me speechless some times, He did the same thing over the weekend with regards to the chealse liverpool match. . .He predicted that Chelsea will win by 2 goals and that drogba and lampard will score the two goals and it happened exactly as he said. . . .He gets some things right and gets some others wrong which is normal with all the people that have these abilities and that also shows that it is a very natural and human thing since they sometimes get it right and sometimes get it wrong, There are others like Daren Brown who also have amazing abilities, they do things that people will consider supernatural even though they themselves to not believe in the supernatural realm at all. . .

I believe that all the people that posses these abilities are all part of the natural world and since there are so many of them doing all these things every where regardless of religion, race or culture. I just wonder why people chose to tag it as supernatural, I believe that there is a part of the natural human existence that we are yet to understand that gives some people the ability to do some of these amazing things things. . .Muslims, Atheist, Christians, Hindus, Taoist, Deist all perform these things so why tag it supernatural since it is human beings that are doing it?

Your take is simplistic and frankly the easiest route. What I would give to believe the things you believe but my soul knows there's more. Way more. Sometimes I like the pantheistic belief that we're all chunks of God but I reject that especially now that I'm getting older and coming to terms with the evil human beings are capable of. Right now, I don't know what to believe. I only know what not to believe. The process of elimination will bring me somewhere sooner or later.

@Max. I've been enchanted by Tibet since I was a kid o. I used to read T. Lobsang Rampa books when I was like thirteen. I couldn't make out if I was reading fiction or real account or something in between. I read other books and magazines, saw documentaries and I think those dudes know something. I'll go whine and make them make me privy to their secrets. Uh, the ones I can handle.

On a side note. I wonder if it took you millenia to come up with those links, mazaje. I bet it didn't. Hmmm. I'd have sworn you needed to buy some supercomputer time and employ a super hacker too.

vescucci:

Your take is simplistic and frankly the easiest route. What I would give to believe the things you believe but my soul knows there's more. Way more. Sometimes I like the pantheistic belief that we're all chunks of God but I reject that especially now that I'm getting older and coming to terms with the evil human beings are capable of. Right now, I don't know what to believe. I only know what not to believe. The process of elimination will bring me somewhere sooner or later.

Excellent!

Being able to "guess" outcomes and results does not necessarily constitute supernatural or psychic ability. Saying this though, most people do posses some form of  ESP and Psychic ability - some more than others. Some are aware of it, most are not.
The world we currently inhabit, and the lifestyle we have carved out for ourselves as humans generally inhibits us from accessing these abilities. The clutter, stress and white noise that surrounds us, the pollutants and chemicals we inhale and ingest, our reliance on outside influences - all these things have turned us away from our innate abilities to tune into vibrations and auras around us.

Animals on the other hand tend to rely more on their innate abilities in order survive, and as such are better tuned in to the world around them. Subsequently, the exhibit clear extra sensory perception and psychic abilities that have been well documented. Pet have been well known to sense illness in their owners before the onset, sense danger before it happens, sense when people die, see auras of humans etc.

@mazeje - Supernatural means something unexplained by natural laws or phenomena. The ability to experience supernatural phenomena, exhibit psychic abilities, and posses extra sensory perception has nothing to do with your race, colour, belief or creed. It exists whether you believe it does or not.
There is no part of current natural laws that can explain some psychic phenomena i have personally witnessed. I have witnessed actions that violates the Laws of Energy and Motion. The only way what i saw could even be remotely be scientifically possible, would involve an alteration or manipulation of Magnetic Law. Whilst alteration of a magnetic field is not uncommon in science, and relatively easy to achieve, there is no known mechanism by which a human being can do this. If this is so, it can definitely constitute as psychic or supernatural phenomena.

Here is what i saw. It is simple, but having a scientific mind, it was to have profound effect on me.

I was at a trade show in Las Vegas a long time ago - COMDEX to be exact. My stand was opposite an open space in which a guy had been hired to perform. He had been performing for a couple of days, but i was never went to see as i had no interest in magic or trickery. On the last day, when expo was over, and people were packing up, i noticed he was alone, so went up to him. I noticed he was heavily tanned, and expensively, but tackily attired. All these made him look more false in my mind.
We spoke about the tricks he had been performing, then he said he wanted to show me something. He reached into his shirt pocket and took out  a Mont Blanc pen. I know it was Mont Blanc because he gave it me to examine. He then stretched out his hand toward me, palm facing upward, and placed the pen in his hand. He hand was a few inches away from my face. He waved his other hand over the pen, and it slowly rose into the air. He made turning motions with the other hand, and the pen simply swivelled accordingly. I reached across, picked up the pen from the air, placed it back into his hand , and he proceeded to do the same thing again.

He told me not everything was based in trickery, but refused to tell me how he did it. As he was talking, he placed both hands at either sides of my face, quite close, as if to cup my face in his hands, but not touching me. I felt an incredible warmth, a very warming heat emanating from his hands and a sudden sharp reduction in pressure in my ears - the kind you feel as you increase altitude when flying. At this moment, my voice and his sounded quite distant. I immediately knew this was due to the decrease in atmospheric pressure, my blood pressure closing off the valves in my inner ear. He smiled and looked at me and said " its a gift", then he walked away.

What I'm alluding to here is that there are many things beyond our understanding that transcends natural laws as we know them today. What i experienced definitely transcends Newtons Laws of Motion. Quite clearly, there exist abilities which allow for the alteration and manipulation of natural laws. These abilities cannot be "natural", as they conflict with existing expressly defined laws.

Master Chen sounds awesome!
Some people understand the laws of physics and build airplanes and rockets and nuclear weapons. Others don't and can't. Maybe some people can grasp laws that work within the natural and immaterial that the rest of us haven't grasped, and build whatever the equivalent of airplanes and rockets are using those laws, which then astonishes us. Tibetans believe it's just a matter of understanding unseen laws and energies and 'forces' and using them to effect what is necessary. In and of itself it has nothing to do with religion. James (Half bro of Jesus) defines religion in Js 1: 27 thus:

Pure and Lasting religion in the sight of God our Father means that we must care for orphans and widows in their troubles, and not let the world corrupt us.

That's the BIBLICAL definition of religion, LOVE AND PRACTICAL COMPASSION, irrespective of what moniker we tag it with; Islam, Buddhism, Christianity, whatever. Contrast that with the religions of the fake faith healers and psychics, with the many sub-sets of the major religions, with their solemn rituals and traditions and religious routines (which they call 'Serving the Lord'), fleecing the flock, their 'we' vs 'them' cult mentality, religious conditioning and autosuggestion,everything focussed inwards and within themselves, instead of radiating outwards to strangers and their communities, and you'll know they aren't even practising any religion at all.

You have to admire James Randi and his work. The one million dollar thing is a trap for the fake religionists, the faith healers and 'psychic' frauds, to lure them into coming out, out of greed, and expose them to the public. And they keep falling into it! It's really clever.

Vesc, you do have some idea of the difficulties involved here? It's not like picking up a book at the store o. It takes decades and decades, and that is if they pay attention to you at all. You may spend years merely doing menial work, and then years doing more menial work, and more years doing more menial work. Notice that most of these advanced monks are practically in their dotage lol. It's not for everybody o.

My take on this still remains, Why attribute something that so many people are doing to the supernatural?. . .What exactly is the supernatural?. . . .Magicians do "supernatural" things all the time that seems to break all natural laws, but when they explain their tricks, people laugh it off and admit that they are very clever people. . . .Are there other natural laws that we haven't discovered yet?. . . .Disease, earthquakes and lightening were considered as supernatural events about 2000 years ago. . .An airplane flying from here to Nigeria would be considered a supernatural activity about 2000 years ago. . . .When men understood how to control things they sent themselves to the moon. . . .There are places in the human body where once you are touched you will loose your consciousness, some people know it and use it(I watched a documentary on it on the national geographic channel). . .If I see a man flying around I will not be quick to label it a supernatural event. . . .When most supernatural phenomenon are studied a natural explanation is found. Even if a natural explanation isn't found it does not mean that it is supernatural since it exists in the natural realm. . . .Who knows, 200 years from now there might be new laws that will be added to what we now know as natural laws. . .  .Just as i said the ability to create objects that can fly for hours in the sky will be considered a supernatural thing thousands of years ago. . . .

Romeo4real:

I am in absolute agreement with the views Just Cool has articulated here.
And just to add to what Mad Max said, I have myself observed a Tai Chi Master in Taiwan - Master Chen, physically move a fellow practitioner forcefully more that 15 feet without actually touching him. This happened in a in a training session. He did this by using/altering his Qi or Chi - the energy field that emanates from, and surrounds every object on Earth - Animate and Inanimate.
Master Chen is the most simple unassuming, humble, courteous man i have ever met. He is small, frail and actually looks weak. Though he has written several best sellers on Tai Chi, you would never know it looking at him. Contrast this to most our our Christian pastors and Faith Healers.

On James Rand and his foundation, his challenge is ridiculous. It is akin to asking the scientific community to prove Darwin's Evolution Theory and Einstein's Relativity Theory beyond all doubt. An impossibility. Let us see if there would be any takers of the million dollar prize.

@Romeo4real
Very good points you made in the above; and thanks for understanding my posts.

But on the issue of "supernatural," mazaje has made some good points too. But before going deeper, we all have to agree on exactly what we mean by "supernatural." Maybe both Romeo4real and mazaje would see each others point if we define what we mean by "supernatural," I have a feeling that both of you are approaching the word "supernatural" from two different perspectives. The word "supernatural" could mean different things; according to Merriam-Webster dictionary, "supernatural" has tow definitions:

1 : of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil
2 a : departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature b : attributed to an invisible agent (as a ghost or spirit)

If we go by definition 1, then these phenomenas(clairvoyance, visions, psychic abilities) can actually be said to be supernatural; because they are beyond the visible observable universe(the physcal world). Example: a person who is clairvoyant does to see with his physical eyes during his/her clairvoyant seeing; thus this is beyond the physical. But this does not go contrary to the laws of nature; neither does it transcend the laws of natural.

If we go by definition 2, we must keep in mind that it says "appear to transcend the laws of nature." Thus the supernatural appear to transcend the laws of nature but not that it actualy does. The supernatural does not really transcend the laws of nature; it appears so because the observer does not know the particular laws of nature involved in the phenomenon.
Example: A flying airplane is a supernatural thing to the ancient men; because he does not consider such possible, he does not know the laws of gravity, floatation, motion, and etc very well. However this feat "the flying airplane" does not transcend nature, it only appears so to the ancient men due to his ignorance of the particular laws involved. The modern man who knows such laws would not consider such a flying airplane supernatural.

If we are talking about the supernatural in the light of the above definitions, I believe mazaje would not have a problem with that. (Please correct me if I am wrong). But the problem is that when people talk about supernatural, they mean that which transcends or annuls the laws of nature. And I get mazaje's argument that such things do not actually transcend or annul the laws of nature; they only appear so because of our ignorance.

My perception is that there is nothing that can transcend or annul the laws of nature. The laws of nature cannot be broken, and it has never been broken. Those things that appear to defy nature are actually in fulfilment of the laws of nature; but to us it appears to defy nature because we have not fully understood the laws of nature. ie we don't yet know all that is possible within the laws.

I will give an example; a man(Mr Jones) may hear about gravity, and from what he knows, gravity is the law that attracts every object to the center of the earth. So if you throw something up, it must fall down. Although this definition of gravity is wrong and only very one sided, to this ignorant man it is correct because he observes it everyday. Thus he comes up with a saying: "Everything that goes up must come down." And he is convinced that this saying is the Truth, until he sees another man(Mr Bobby) who inflates a balloon with helium. Mr Bobby lets go of his helium-filled-balloon, but rather than falling to the ground, the balloon goes up and never comes down. Astonded, Mr. Jones would call this a deferment of gravity, he may even labell Mr Bobby a witch, a miracle worker, a man who can annul gravity or defy nature. Thus Mr Jones would call this phenomenon a supernatural act.
The Truth is that the act was not a deferment of gravity but rather an application of the law of gravity which Mr Jones does not know very well.

So actually there is nothing like "the supernatural," if by "the supernatural" one means something that is beyond the laws of nature or something that anulls the laws of nature. All physchic abilities are natural phoneme; the laws guiding these things are not known by the average man who discribs them as supernatural. Those that know how to perform these things knows how to apply or make use of laws that the average man does not know about. Therefore rather than annulling nature, they actually had to obey the laws of nature. Just like scientists painstakingly had to study and understand gravity before they can invent airplanes and rockets; to the average man it seems like scientists defy laws of nature, but the truth is that scientists actually obey nature.

These laws, including the laws of nature, are laws set down by God from the beginning; they have never changed and will never change. No man, however strong, talented or knowledgeable can annul them. But man can achieve great feats when he knows how to apply them.

In the case of magic, it only trickery; the magician tricks you into believing that he did something that he actually didn't do.

mazaje:

My take on this still remains, Why attribute something that so many people are doing to the supernatural?. . .What exactly is the supernatural?. . . .Magicians do "supernatural" things all the time that seems to break all natural laws, but when they explain their tricks, people laugh it off admit that they are very clever people. . . .Are there other natural laws that we haven't discovered yet?. . . .Disease, earthquakes and lightening were considered as supernatural events about 2000 years ago. . .An airplane flying from here to Nigeria would be considered a supernatural activity about 2000 years ago. . . .When men understood how to control things they sent themselves to the moon. . . .There are places in the human body where once you are touched you will loose your consciousness, some people know it and use it(I watched a documentary on it on the national geographic channel). . .If I see a man flying around I will not be quick to label it a supernatural event. . . .When most supernatural phenomenon are studied a natural explanation is found. Even if a natural explanation is found it does not mean that it is supernatural since it exists in the natural realm. . . .Who know, 200 years from now there might be new laws that will be added to what we now know as natural laws. . . .Just as i said the ability to create objects that can fly for hours in the sky will be considered a supernatural thing. . . .

@mazaje
Great points! But it depends on what you mean by "supernatural" as I have explained above.

mazaje:

My take on this still remains, Why attribute something that so many people are doing to the supernatural?. . .What exactly is the supernatural?. . . .Magicians do "supernatural" things all the time that seems to break all natural laws, but when they explain their tricks, people laugh it off admit that they are very clever people. . . .Are there other natural laws that we haven't discovered yet?. . . .Disease, earthquakes and lightening were considered as supernatural events about 2000 years ago. . .An airplane flying from here to Nigeria would be considered a supernatural activity about 2000 years ago. . . .When men understood how to control things they sent themselves to the moon. . . .There are places in the human body where once you are touched you will loose your consciousness, some people know it and use it(I watched a documentary on it on the national geographic channel). . .If I see a man flying around I will not be quick to label it a supernatural event. . . .When most supernatural phenomenon are studied a natural explanation is found. Even if a natural explanation isn't found it does not mean that it is supernatural since it exists in the natural realm. . . .Who know, 200 years from now there might be new laws that will be added to what we now know as natural laws. . .  .Just as i said the ability to create objects that can fly for hours in the sky will be considered a supernatural thing thousands of years ago. . . .

It's all natural. We merely don't understand them yet. I get what you're saying. In a sense it's what the rest of us are saying; maybe some people know laws the rest of us don't yet, and use it. They may not even think of them as 'laws'. 'Energies', maybe, like some people call it. There's no reason to think we're at the end of knowledge and more laws won't be discovered, so that if we should come back in 2000 years humanity would be doing things that would astonish US, just like anyone who drops in from 2000 years old ago would be lost in wonder at spacecraft and men on the moon and airplanes and rockets and the internet. I quite get you. An absolutely valid take on things. There are views of God that say He established the laws that set things in motion and retired. He rarely intervenes in human events, though He takes a keen interest in it. People advance in knowledge at different rates, and while the scientific societies advance in their knowledge of one part of these laws, other societies, the Tibetans, let's say, advance in their knowledge of another side of the same set of laws. So that while a demonstration of a man going to the moon would astonish a Tibetan monk, His demonstrations of the laws he understands would astonish the scientists too. 

There was a man, an American university professor and atheist lol, who died in a hospital in Paris while on vacation with his wife. He had some VERY interesting things happen to him. He absolutely BELIEVED death was the end and was extremely shocked to find it wasn't. Some things he was told include that there are abilities human beings have but haven't been allowed to discover yet, because they'd destroy themselves with it. And these include discovering some established laws. These laws are there, they've always been there, but we've gotten only a minute fraction of them, it seems. They point out that the ones we've been allowed to discover we invariably find evil applications for. So it would seem the astonishing abilities some people demonstrate are all natural in the sense of being natural laws most of us haven't  discovered or understood yet. Good point you raised there.

But for James Randi to be satisfied, the actual people who can tap into some of these laws the rest of us can't would merely have to demonstrate it. To him, that would define supernatural or paranormal, which is also the definition for a majority of us. Some of these Tibetan monks, and other people in different parts of the world, can do it. But they won't do it to get a million dollars, and they won't advertize themselves either.

Justcool and Max summed it all up nicely. The supernatural has nothing to do with spirituality. Spirituality has some stuff to do with the supernatural. Supernatural phenomena is depends on what you regard to be the purview of the natural. Things either are or they aren't. For us to know what is truly supernatural, we must somehow prove we have COMPLETE understanding of ALL that is natural. So mazaje has a valid point and a moot one also. The 'supernatural' in the common sense does not prove the existence of God (especially as most believers in God believe he transcends all laws and isn't bound by them). This I believe is mazaje's point which really is interesting because I'll stick out a limb and an organ and say 99% of the human race believe in God or some prophet because of some 'supernatural' activity they experienced themselves or vicariously.

Max. Haba. I'm joking na! I saw this film with Brad Pitt in it. The things he went through alone dissuades this poor boy. I'd still go to Tibet. . . . just to have a chat and maybe drink some tea.

Romeo4real:



What I'm alluding to here is that there are many things beyond our understanding

Correct.

that transcends natural laws

Nothing traanscends natural laws.

as we know them today.

Correct.

What i experienced definitely transcends Newtons Laws of Motion.

Correct.

Quite clearly, there exist abilities which allow for the alteration and manipulation of natural laws.

Manipulation, yes, alteration, no.

These abilities cannot be "natural",

Thay are perfectly natural.

as they conflict with existing expressly defined laws.

We simply dont know all the laws. Or the manifestations of those laws that we do know.

You certainly can. But you may not expect quick replies because:
(1) I am crazily busy at the moment.
(2) I only come online at certain times.

^^^ Great question, and although I am not MyJoe, i would like to offer my two cents.

Both Light and Darkness are, in my view, eternal, self-existent realities.

In as much as it is impossible to have a concept of "up" without an equal reverse concept of "down," i do not imagine that the Light may be spoken of without a reverse existence of darkness.

Whether the light is subsumed in a personality i fear no man may ever know - as no man may ever appproach the Light or comprehend its existence. In the same vein it may not be possible to determine if the darkness is subsumed in a personality. What is relevant and important i think, may be a recognition of what these elements represent, and to what extent such may be relevant to our personal lives.

It is tempting to simplistically view Light as "good" and darkness as "evil" - but i fear that is not a subtle or discrete enough perception. I will be more inclined to viewing the Light as the centre of all existent intangible magnetism, and the darkness as the reverse of that magnetism which is inclined to disintegration.

Thus i view the Light as a unifying force in a sense - the centre of ordered existence - whereas the darkness remains the eternal centrifugal force which pulls in the opposite direction - towards disintegration and an existence or reality which is not ordered and therefore meaningless.

I think that this is why the mystic will tell you about an eternal stuggle between Light and Darkness: for a magnetic central and unifying force must needs remain in eternal conflict with that which naturally pulls in the opposite direction and is directed towards disintegration. In this sense i might say that the Light is therefore the bastion of harmony whilst the darkness is representative of distintegration; a pulling apart and thus cessation of ordered existence. It is thesefore the Light that has meaning and purpose and order and direction, whereas the darkness has disintegration as its natural centrifugal tendency.

To crystallize it the Light is representative of life and mind in this regard.

Looking at things this way it seems beautiful and deep that it was written: "The Light shineth in the darkness and the darkness comprehendeth not the Light."

Mad_Max:

Actually, I wanted myJoe and ttalks view on this, as they're Christians and will be discussing things from a Christian perspective. I'm waiting for theirs, but your take is interesting. You believe there must always be an opposite, and that darkness is the other end of the spectrum, and it is natural for there to be darkness since there is light. Is that necessarily so?

The idea perhaps stems from the concept of night and day as opposites. Because that is what we know on earth. But there are planets where there is no night, not only because they have two suns, but because there isn't a moon to get between them and the sunlight. If things lived there, they have never known what physical darkness is, all they know is light. In fact, it's more commonplace than our solar system with its one sun. One sun is an oddity in the universe.

There are places where there may be down but no up. Physicists know different physical dimensions exist. We live in a 3-dimensional world, where a point in space has three references: up, down, sideways. They sometimes add time as a fourth dimension because time is wrapped up in space and only exists in this universe. But they know there are places of higher dimensions and that the universe curves into one of these higher dimensions. Since we've never experieced anything but our 3 dimensions there is no way we can conceive of what constitutes extra dimensions in other places, but there is no doubt, according to physics, that 3,4,5,6,7,etc dimensions exist. Which might mean lower dimensions, 1,2, mighr exist as well. It would mean a world where creatures only went in one direction, perhaps forth and back, and exists perfectly and happily, and cannot conceive of extra dimensions like ours where there is up and down. It means there are worlds where creatures may have sideways and down, but no up. And they function perfectly and naturally in this world as we do in ours.

If you, a 3-dimensional creature, were to find yourself in a physical 2-dimensional world of just 'sideways' and 'down', you would cause a sensation. Do you know all you would have to do to disappear from their sight? You'd jump UP. Normal and natural to you, inconceivable to them, unnatural and therefore: a MIRACLE. You could perch somewhere for hours, jump down again and they would worship you as a god. Another 3-dimensional creature would see everything you were doing, but the 2-dimensional creatures won't. It's one of the reasons I read the miracles of Jesus without the least surprise. He walked on water? He calmed a storm? Walked through walls? All these things would be as easy for him as jumping up in a 2-dimensional planet would be for you, if Jesus were exactly who he says he is. He would not only be in the know of extra dimensions higher than ours, he would operate easily and effectively within them, and to us, it would be astonishing because he's using stuff from higher dimensions unnatural and inexplicable in our simple 3-dimensional world. We'd label them miracles, as surely as 2-dimensional creatures would label you a god and your 'vanishing' or jumping over a body of water (it would look strange to them since there is no up) asmiracles too. It's not science fiction. It's hard physics that there are extra dimensions we don't know and can't conceive of.

So not everything necessarily has an opposite just for its own sake. There is a God and He is light. Darkness does not necessarily follow. There is darkness and evil beings, but not as automatic opposites to God.That light exists does not mean darkness must exist, just because we on this planet know day and light to be opposite of night and darkness. There are planets in this same universe that have no idea what night is and have never seen darkness.That we have up and down doesn't mean up and down go together in other places. You're applying the things of this world, this dimension, to places where the same rules do not necessarily apply.

Very insightful, thanks.