noetic17:

@ M-Nwankwo

Thanks for your response.

I am taking a cautious approach in replying u, but can u take a second look at the following.

1. Jesus actually affirmed to the world that unless they drink His blood and eat His flesh they CANNOT be saved. (John 6:53)

2. The only thing that Jesus commanded that should be done in remembrance of Him is the holy communion (Luke 22:19)

3. Jesus affirms that His blood ensures the remission of sins. (Matthew 26:28 )

4. Jesus asserted in more than 5 places in the gospels that His death and resurrection brings Him glory. He rebuked Peter who did not want Him to die. He also prayed that He be glorified at death in His last prayer recorded in the book of John.

5. Jesus boldly asserted that He is the one who has laid down His life and He can also take it back (John 10:17-18)

6. Jesus says that the Father LOVES Him because HE (Jesus) agreed to lay down His life (John 10:17)

---

It is ontologically impossible for Jesus to have been killed without the knowledge of God or by accident (like u proscribed). . . . .unless of course we are talking about 2 different Jesus here. This is because God is supposed to be omni-potent and omni-scient.
Have u ever considered the possibility that your belief in a non-biblical Jesus might be wrong and may cost u eternity?

Nwankwo does not draw his convictions from the bible: just like he has told you: so all the quotes above are no grounds for addressing him.

Nwankwo is a Jewel. Far and above the most esteemed member of the NL Religion Board.

Although I am unable to agree with all that he says: such as his endorsement of the Trinity - a doctrine I am certain I will die still disbelieving - or his perception of the identity of the writer of the Grail Message: I must say that I am always humbled to be addressed by him; and if he were to make a claim to divinity himself, I just might believe it.

Deep Sight:

Nwankwo does not draw his convictions from the bible: just like he has told you: so all the quotes above are no grounds for addressing him.

As usual, u make posts without thinking twice.

I am sure I already emphasised in my previous post that it was impossible to construct counter analysis against his notions, since he does not subscribe to the bible. So quite unlike ur misguided misrepresentation of my response to him. . . .What I laid out to establish was that his (m_nwankwo) opinions contradict the known ontology of JC and His purpose and mission as stated in the bible.

I ended up asking him, if he knows that, should his theory be false it might cost him his eternity. So also do I ask u DS, that should u die, do u know that ur denial of the sacrifice of JC, might cost u ur place in eternity, regardless of how good u are?

my last post was not hard to understand, even for the least educated. . . . .or was it?

@ M_Nwankwo -

I am at odds with your statement that Jesus never stated that John the Baptist was Elijah.

I am aware that Jesus stated in plain words exactly that John the Baptist was the returned Elijah - at least as recorded by the Bible.

Now I am further aware that the Bible is not your creed (nor is it my creed) - thus, your statement (to be true) must mean either -

   1. Jesus did actually say that John was Elijah - as recorded by the Bible, but meant it symbolically or in another sense altogether

   2. Jesus never actually said such a thing - the Bible gives a wrong report of his statement.

Which is it?

Noetic, I see now you were merely looking for an argument lol. You won't get one from me. I dislike it. Only real motive to prove one side 'right' and the other 'wrong'. And this 'right' and 'wrong' is merely each side's opinions and nothing to do with anything real or important. I've zero interest in 'proving' anything. I don't owe it to you. If you want to know about Paul, you've demonstrated you have eyeballs that function beautifully. Point them at your own research on the matter.

Kay 17:

sounds convincing! but by what means can one ascertain the truth in reincarnation, internal feelings? is simply providing hope and comfort for death?

Yeah. I know what you mean. But people assert things all the time. The trick is to not take anything, ANYTHING, at anyone's word, but find out for yourself what is true and what isn't. Don't let anyone lead you by the nose and tell you what to think. No one is qualified, believe me. Seek for yourself.

noetic17:

As usual, u make posts without thinking twice.

Smile. Life is beautiful.

I am sure I already emphasised in my previous post that it was impossible to construct counter analysis against his notions, [size=18pt]since he does not subscribe to the bible. [/size] So quite unlike your misguided misrepresentation of my response to him. . . .What I laid out to establish [size=18pt]was that his (m_nwankwo) opinions contradict the known ontology of JC and His purpose and mission as stated in the bible[/size].

Eminently contradictory.

I ended up asking him, if he knows that, should his theory be false it might cost him his eternity. So also do I ask u DS, that should u die, do u know that your denial of the sacrifice of JC, might cost u your place in eternity, regardless of how good u are?

Eminently contradictory. The word "regardless" in your question is an oxymoron.

my last post was not hard to understand, even for the least educated. . . . .or was it?

Smile again, Noetic.

Deep Sight:

@ M_Nwankwo -

I am at odds with your statement that Jesus never stated that John the Baptist was Elijah.

I am aware that Jesus stated in plain words exactly that John the Baptist was the returned Elijah - at least as recorded by the Bible.

Now I am further aware that the Bible is not your creed (nor is it my creed) - thus, your statement (to be true) must mean either -

   1. Jesus did actually say that John was Elijah - as recorded by the Bible, but meant it symbolically or in another sense altogether

   2. Jesus never actually said such a thing - the Bible gives a wrong report of his statement.

Which is it?

Nwankwo does not draw his convictions from the bible . . .so ur questions are irrelevant to his convictions and subsequently this thread.

Taste ur own pill Doc.

Mad_Max:

Noetic, I see now you were merely looking for an argument lol. You won't get one from me. I dislike it. Only real motive to prove one side 'right' and the other 'wrong'. And this 'right' and 'wrong' is merely each side's opinions and nothing to do with anything real or important. I've zero interest in 'proving' anything. I don't owe it to you. If you want to know about Paul, you've demonstrated you have eyeballs that function beautifully. Point them at your own research on the matter.

I was honestly not looking for an argument. . . .I just wanted to hear ur side of the story and ask questions just like I have done with Nwankwo. If u are convinced that Paul has a different gospel to Jesus . . .then u should be bold to state ur case, answer my questions and possibly educate my ignorance.

Deep Sight:

Smile. Life is beautiful.

Eminently contradictory.

whats contradictory?. DS is as usual confused

1. Nwankwo does not believe in the bible.

2. yet he makes a case for the mission of Jesus

3. The major difference in his case for Jesus and that of the biblical account lies with the very core issue of SALVATION

4. Noetic highlights this fact by stating relevant biblical accounts that contradict Nwankwo's claim.

5. Noetic does not attempt to force his position on Nwankwo but asks that he gives it a second look, while understanding that Nwankwo draws no convictions from the bible.

6. Noetic highlights that Nwankwo being wrong, might cost him his eternity.

Which of the above is CONTRADICTORY?

Eminently contradictory. The word "regardless" in your question is an oxymoron.

I am sure u would understand better in hell.

Smile again, Noetic.

It is ontologically impossible for Jesus to have been killed without the knowledge of God or by accident (like u proscribed). . . . .unless of course we are talking about 2 different Jesus here. This is because God is supposed to be omni-potent and omni-scient.
Have u ever considered the possibility that your belief in a non-biblical Jesus might be wrong and may cost u eternity?

Hi again Noetic. Thanks for your response. If you read my posts, I did not say that God have no foreknowledge of the murder of Jesus. I simply stated that it is not the will of God that Jesus should be murdered but that his dastardly murder is due to the evil will of men acting as tools  for the darkness. To have foreknowledge does not mean it is the will of God. God had foreknowledge that we sin, does it mean that it is the will of God that we sin? If an armed robber murders, does God know that he will murder and when he murders, is it the will of God that he murders? God gave men free will out of his omniscience and will not abrogate the free will of men, rather what a man sows, he reaps. God cannot force men to sow this or that seed, and neither will God abrogate the harvests of seeds sown. Thus if you sow corn, you reap corn in multiples, not mango. Maybe when the opportunity present itself, I will offer a detailed explanation of my perception of what omnipotence and omniscience are.

I am absolutely certain that the picture of Jesus that I presented is the Truth, thus it is impossible for my perception on this issue to be false. People are however entitled to have their own opinion on what I have said on this issue. After all, it is their choice, not mine. Stay blessed.

Hi Deepsight.

Nwankwo does not draw his convictions from the bible: just like he has told you: so all the quotes above are no grounds for addressing him.

Nwankwo is a Jewel. Far and above the most esteemed member of the NL Religion Board.

Although I am unable to agree with all that he says: such as his endorsement of the Trinity - a doctrine I am certain I will die still disbelieving - or his perception of the identity of the writer of the Grail Message: I must say that I am always humbled to be addressed by him; and if he were to make a claim to divinity himself, I just might believe it. Cool

I am not divine nor do I harbor any desire to be divine. I am a human spirit who God have given the grace to be his servant.

@ M_Nwankwo -

I am at odds with your statement that Jesus never stated that John the Baptist was Elijah.

I am aware that Jesus stated in plain words exactly that John the Baptist was the returned Elijah - at least as recorded by the Bible.

Now I am further aware that the Bible is not your creed (nor is it my creed) - thus, your statement (to be true) must mean either -

   1. Jesus did actually say that John was Elijah -  as recorded by the Bible, but meant it symbolically or in another sense altogether

   2. Jesus never actually said such a thing - the Bible gives a wrong report of his statement.

Which is it?

Option 2 is the correct one provided you remove this part "the Bible gives a wrong report of his statement". As a rule I do not consider it appropriate to label the bible right or wrong. I simply state what I am permitted to draw from the laws of God and nothing more. As always stay blessed.

Curiousmind:

@m.mwankwo

Which Technique did You use to activate Your Ethereal organs and which is the most Effective Technique?

When using The Ethereal Organs, can You perceive Ethereal, Causal, Mental, Astral, physical beings/worlds all Together or You can Only perceive Ethereal beings/worlds alone?

Why cant i see my Guardian Angels in my Out of Body Experiences (Astral Projection/Soul Travel) even Though i invite/summon them, i would not see them?

And How can someone read the Akashic Records without Astral Projecting?

I am sorry if i am off Topic. Please pardon me!

Thank You

Hi curiousmind. I did not use any technique. It is a gift of God. I could have answered your questions but my view is that it will not benefit you spiritually. Astral travel, soul travel and similar things are not a requirement for serving and recognizing God. On the contrarily, they can easily lead one astray. As I already replied to MyJoe earlier in this thread, all that one need to do is to love God with your entire being and love your neighbor as yourself. Then God will permit you all the experiences that are necessary for your own spiritual development. Thus if you need an opening of your inner faculties while you are still on earth for your spiritual development, it will be opened by the power of GOD and such an opening does not require any technique. It only requires living according to the will of God. Best Wishes.

noetic17:

I was honestly not looking for an argument. . . .I just wanted to hear your side of the story and ask questions just like I have done with Nwankwo. If u are convinced that Paul has a different gospel to Jesus . . .then u should be bold to state your case, answer my questions and possibly educate my ignorance.

I can state 'my' case, but I won't. And you've clearly stated you are looking for an argument, to prove my false assertion wrong and pick holes in my 'case'.

noetic17:

I was interested in your "analysis" because u made a bold but FALSE assertion . . . .all u had to do was to prove it and see what holes would be picked up in it. The bible is there for anyone to read.

You already have your bold but true assertion as opposed to my bold but FALSE one. We'll agree to disagree, hmm? The world is big enough to contain everyone's assertions, true and FALSE.

All these talks about dreams, visions, clairvoyance, and reincarnation are good if one seeks to find the Truth about these matters; but here I sense curiosity in some posters. Curiosity and seeking to experience these things just out of curiosity is very dangerous and can lead one away from the Truth. Dreams, visions and clairvoyance have nothing to do with spiritual maturity. Everybody have dreams and most people, at least once in their earth lives have had a vision or have been clairvoyant, but this does not mean that they are spiritually mature. Training to expereince these things through occult practices is very dangerous and very weakening to the physical body; and once achieved, one cannot see anything on a higher level than his/her level of spiritual maturity.

Some people endanger their physical bodies at the cost of being able to see the beyond or perform astral travel and etc. But the beyond which they see is only their ethereal or astral environment and not anything worthy. Actually to some, it is better that they don’t see their ethereal environment. I will give an example: An inwardly impure man is surrounded by an impure ethereal environment, an environment that corressponds to his spritual state; being on earth and in the physical body makes it easier for him to become purer because one earth good and evil dwell side by side, by association with purer people on earth, he may change his ways and by emulating the purer people, he may soon also achieve some level of purity, and consequently his ethereal environment will change. But if he retires into himself and start practicing clairvoyance, modern psychic science and etc, he may succeed in opening the door that had hitherto protected him from his vile ethereal environment. And he will indulge in these practices, hearing and perceiving an ethereal environment that is at the same level with him, an environment that does not offer him an opportunity to become purer because in such environment only homogeneous spirits of the same impurity dwell. In so doing, this man forsakes this great gift of being on earth, and retires back to the ethereal; at the end when he dies, he finds out that he had not learnt the lessons he came to the earth to lean. Thus he had wasted his life on earth.

An inwardly mature spirit knows that being on earth is a great gift; he utilizes his energy in learning the lessons life on earth offers. It is not maturity to be able to perform astral travel or to be able to see or perceive ethereal things or astral things while neglecting your ability to live physically. It is like a child in primary one, who puts a hole on the wall of his classroom so that he can peep and see the next class -- class two. It happens that when this child (who while in class one boast of his knowledge of class two) finds himself promoted to class two, he will not be able to catch up with class two lessons because he neglected to learn the lessons of class one which is prerequisite for understanding the lessons of class two. Thus when people boast of their ability to travel in the astral, visit the astral planes, see visions, clairvoyance and etc, they are only revealing how inwardly immature they are. The procedures for learning to do these things weaken the physical body.

Occasionally and without occult training, one is allowed to see or perceive the beyond, in such cases it is a gift from above. But going through occult trainings to achieve these feats is very wrong. Also, occasionally, people are shown visions as a gift from above; but rather than inwardly and quietly reflecting on it to fully understand why the vision was given to them, they begin to toot their own horns. They begin to brag and tell people how clairvoyant they are. Such people cause unnecessary worries and make false predictions because their visions which were peculiarly fashioned for them, were not even understood by them in the first place. Ernest seekers keep personal visions to themselves and completely understand the visions; only when instructed to reveal the visions to people do they reveal it.  This should be the case all sorts of divination -- astrology, clairvoyance, visions, and prophecy. People who are too eager to tell others about their dreams, visions and psychic abilities are actually irresponsible enthusiasts who desire personal recognition. It is understandable that such people are not inwardly mature, thus their visions not really of any importance, they are only revelations of their ethereal or astral environment, an environment or a plane that may actually be lower than the earth. Any wonder why their predictions often fail. Some of the times what they see is actually forms, events, and environment created by their thoughts forms. This why their visions are always in accord with their religious and personal beliefs.

Some people argue that they need such occultic practices to know the beyond so that when they pass on they would not be strangers in the beyond. But this argument shows lack of understanding of the laws of creation which allows no gaps. Nature allows no gaps, towards the end of ones life, in old age (The phlegmatic stage of physical existence); the physical body's radiations changes and gradually he will be able to perceive the beyond; so that when he passes on he will not find himself in a strange environment. Ie in old age, towards the end of one's life, he/she will gradually beging to see the beyong; so that when he dies he finds himself in an enviroment that he/she has already became familier with during his/her old age on earth. This is how it is willed by the laws of God; but unfornatley so many people are denied of this gradual transition due to early death.

Thus in the laws of God lie everything that man needs, everything that he will ever need has been provided for. He only needs to walk calmly, neither with delay nor with hast; without any occult training or hurry to experience the beyond.

Every moment on earth is more important than any artificial experiencing of the beyond. There is nothing in the beyond (astral, and ethereal planes) so stupendous that one should hurry towards it; the same laws that guide the physical world guides the beyond. Actually there is no distinction between this world and the beyond.

Grasp life on earth with jubilant hands; experience the earth while on earth. The time for the beyond will come one day, when your physical body falls away, then the beyond will be all yours to experience.

m_nwankwo:


Jesus appeared to his followers to show them that the spirit survives physical death and that life continues beyond the physical. Jesus mediated the power that opened the ethereal bodies of his followers permitting them to experience consciously the ethereal world with the organs of the ethereal body. Thus they were able to see, hear, torch and feel the risen messiah. Just like you can clearly recognize physical things with physical organs, so is it that you can recognize and experience ethereal things with ethereal organs. Even today, if your ethereal organs are opened, you can see and interact with people who have died and yet your friends or family will not see anything. I have been permitted to have several experiences of such and so do others irrespective of there religious persuasions. In all cultures, there are authentic stories of a wife seeing the departed husband and think it is the physical husband only to informed that the husband died in a car crash at around 10.00AM in the morning and yet the wife saw the husband by 5.00pm the same day. What she has seen is the husband in an ethereal body but believes that it is the husband in flesh and blood. The realization that what she saw is the departed husband dawns on her when the husband coffin is brought back with a death certificate showing that the husband died at 10.00am in the morning. But since Jesus is a son of God, his ethereal body unlike that of human beings is animated by the unsubstantiate divine essence that is God, thus the ethereal body of Jesus is very luminous. It was the ethereal body of Jesus that was uncovered during the transfiguration. I got to stop here for now. As always stay blessed.

@m_nwankwo
With all due respect. I don't understand with you mean by "the ethereal body of Jesus that was uncovered during the transfiguration." My perception of the transfiguration differs from yours. Please let me know if I misunderstood what you wrote.

I believe that what happened during transfiguration was that the disciples ethereal eyes and ears were opened for a while and with their ethereal eyes they saw Jesus in His ethereal body.

It is my perception that Jesus did not exit his physical body during transfiguration, the disciples saw His ethereal body with their ethereal eyes because the ethereal eyes can only perceive the ethereal. Jesus's physical body could not obscure their vision of his ethereal because they were seeing with their ethereal eyes which can see through the physical.

I think that "uncovered" is the wrong choice of words, because the ethereal body is not actually covered by the physical; being of different species they could only slide next to each other or into each other like lenses of the telescope. One does not need to shed his physical body for his ethereal body to be seen. Looking at a man who is still physicaly alive on earth, one can see all the bodies that the man wears; it all depends on the eyes with which you are seeing. Thus if you are seeing with the physical eyes, you will see his physical body; if you are seeing with the ethereal eyes you will see the ethereal body; if you are seeing with the animistic body's eyes you will see the animistic. Basically speaking, the physical perceives only the gross matter, the ethereal perceives only ethereal matter while the animistic body perceives only the animistic substances. This is a result of the working of the law of homogeneous species; each specie can only pecieve the same specie. At best a specie can only pecieve half a step below and above its specie. But a man will never be able to clearly see ethereal with his physical eyes and vice-verse. Nature allows no intermingling of species.

It was due to the fact that the disciples saw with their ethereal eyes, that they(the disciples) could see the helpers who stood next to Jesus; these helpers had no physical bodies but had ethereal bodies as their outermost bodies. The disciples thought that the helpers were Moses and Elijah.

When the physical sight of the disciples returned, they could no longer see with their ethereal eyes, and consequently could no longer see the ethereal helpers and Jesus's very bright ethereal body. One cannot see with both ethereal and physical eyes at the same time. So when the disciples sight returned back to the physical, they could only see the physcal body of Jesus and they thought that Jesus had transfigured back to normal. But the ethereal body of Jesus remained bright, and surrounded by helpers, only that the disciples could no longer see them.

Even today, occasionally people's ethereal or astral eyes open for a while and they behold the ethereal body of another person who is living. This is another form of clairvoyance that is also worthy to be mentioned. I will give an example: I man takes his wife to a seer and the seer looks at the woman and exclaims that the woman is a mamaid. People would wonder how that was possible, and some people will simply say that the seer is lying. But actually the seer who has the gift or the ability to see with his ethereal eyes looked at the woman with his ethereal sight and saw the degenerated ethereal body of the woman. This woman's ethereal body had lost its human form and had degenerated to the form of a mamaid.

The ethereal body is always a reflection of the inner state of the individual. Thus one who constantly indulges in evil will have a dark ethereal body which can degenerate to the extent of losing its human form and taking on an animal or ugly form depending on the nature of the evil that the individual indulges with.

By the same token, good people have bright and beautiful ethereal bodies bearing the human form. Jesus's ethereal body was very bright and radiant as the Divine unsubtantiate core of Jesus glowed through it. Like m_nwankwo had already said.

Thanks and remain blessed.

THE BANDAGE FALLS AND BELIEF BECOMES CONVICTION. LIBERATION AND REDEMPTION LIE ONLY IN CONVICTION


@m.mkwankwo You got my Questions Twisted. From my personal experience, Before anyone could successfuly Soul Travel, unconditional love must be involve. The fear of death is no more and You can accelerate Your ascension by going into one of the Inner Temples of Sacred wisdom to study which i have been privedged in some occasions courtesy soul Travel Experiences.


@Justcool, Spiritual unfoldment comes with knowing (Personal Experiences) not depending on any Holy Book because this Books are primary stage of spiritual unfoldment. These Authors (prophets) wrote these Books from their own Conviction via Divine Inspiration. @Justcool, Have You heard about Automatic Writing?

@m_nwankwo
With all due respect. I don't understand with you mean by "the ethereal body of Jesus that was uncovered during the transfiguration." My perception of the transfiguration differs from yours. Please let me know if I misunderstood what you wrote.

I believe that what happened during transfiguration was that the disciples ethereal eyes and ears were opened for a while and with their ethereal eyes they saw Jesus in His ethereal body.

It is my perception that Jesus did not exit his physical body during transfiguration, the disciples saw His ethereal body with their ethereal eyes because the ethereal eyes can only perceive the ethereal. Jesus's physical body could not obscure their vision of his ethereal because they were seeing with their ethereal eyes which can see through the physical.

I think that "uncovered" is the wrong choice of words, because the ethereal body is not actually covered by the physical; being of different species they could only slide next to each other or into each other like lenses of the telescope. One does not need to shed his physical body for his ethereal body to be seen.

Hi Justcool. Thanks for your comments. You misunderstood me. Uncovering simply means opening of the ethereal body. It does not as you seem to understand it mean a separation of the physical body from the ethereal body. Thus, your explanation above is in accord with what uncovering means in the sense I used it.  I do not seee uncovering as a wrong choice of word for it is my experience that the ethereal body can slide in and out of the physical body . I also do know that the ethereal body can be expanded and contracted. Stay blessed.

@m.mkwankwo You got my Questions Twisted. From my personal experience, Before anyone could successfuly Soul Travel, unconditional love must be involve. The fear of death is no more and You can accelerate Your ascension by going into one of the Inner Temples of Sacred wisdom to study which i have been privedged in some occasions courtesy soul Travel Experiences.

Good that you said from your personal experience. But there are other possiblities outside of your experience and I will just give you two examples. You can be given a chant linked to the power centers of those who gave you the chant or spiritual exerise and  you will be capable of soul travelling even when you have no love in you. The only difference here is that your soul have travelled to the worlds created and animated by the very masters who gave you the chant or spiritual technique. Look around you and I am confident you will see those who are capable of soul travel but have no unconditional love in them. As they describe there experiences in these their inner worlds, look at their words, thoughts, actions etc to their family or fellow men and you will hopefully percieve how far some of them are from unconditional love. Second, I know about two herbs (will not name them) which if you are given can affect the radiation connection between your soul and the physical body allowing the soul to travel even when you have no love in you. Again, in this second case you will only travel to the worlds of your own creation, nothing more. But for many soul travellers, they will believe that they are experiencing reality but they are not. You can taste what I am saying. Whenever you do your soul travel, question the experience that you have and doubt the masters that appear to you. Sooner rather than later, the inner worlds and the masters that animate these inner worlds will loose their influence on you and cease to exist for you. Stay blessed.

Astral travel? Inner Temple of Wisdom? Automatic writing We're now in bizarre territory.

@m_nwankwo
I know you're well read. Do you read religious thought? Christian mysticism, Islam, Lamaist teaching,  Hinduism, Judaist esoterism, Buddhism, Catholic mysticism, oriental philosophies and ethical systems like the Tao, Shinto and Confucianism? Whic did you read and what did you think of them?

With m_nwankwo's last post, my attitude has changed. I'm kowtowing animatedly. I think I'll visit Tibet one day, not to practice anything myself. I just wanna observe and experience some things vicariously.

I couldn't stop laughing with the exchanges between Max and Noetic. Noetic, you should count yourself lucky she answered you. . . . . twice! Normally, she'll just ignore you, man. No vex

m_nwankwo:

Hi Justcool. Thanks for your comments. You misunderstood me. Uncovering simply means opening of the ethereal body. It does not as you seem to understand it mean a separation of the physical body from the ethereal body. Thus, your explanation above is in accord with what uncovering means in the sense I used it.  I do not seee uncovering as a wrong choice of word for it is my experience that the ethereal body can slide in and out of the physical body . I also do know that the ethereal body can be expanded and contracted. Stay blessed.

Hi m_nwankwo. Thanks a lot. I hope you do not mind that I pointed out what I misunderstood; no disrespect was intended. 

Curiousmind:

@Justcool, Spiritual unfoldment comes with knowing (Personal Experiences) not depending on any Holy Book because this Books are primary stage of spiritual unfoldment. These Authors (prophets) wrote these Books from their own Conviction via Divine Inspiration. @Justcool, Have You heard about Automatic Writing?

@Curiousmind. Thanks a lot. You are right, spiritual unfoldment comes from experiencing; one can also experience a book. There a many ways through which a man experiences spiritually but occult training and practices are the wrong and unnatural way to go.

Before I answer your second question, I need to understand what you mean by Automatic Writing.' Please define Automatic writing for me.

Thanks and remain blessed.

@Justcool
SPIRITUAL AUTOMATIC WRITING :- Is a concept by which spirits Dictate or Take the hand of a Prophet to write messages, letters, Books etc

@m.nwankwo
I Soul Travel without chanting Sacred words and sometimes i chant ordinary words to Soul Travel. Chanting of Sacred Words To Soul Travel are ment for Neophytes

Please dont be Too Secretive. We are all here to learn from One another. Kindly Prescribe The book on Herbalism that contained those Soul Travel herbs. I am not well Grounded in Herbalism and i respect Your knowledge on this Topic

Thank You

Reading through this thread is the best thing I have done today. It was most inspiring. The last posters really delved into a subject that was confusing to me prior to now. I have attended seminars on soul travel and honestly, the claims really made me doubt myself, just imagine that some claim to have chatted with Jesus on the inner planes, who instructed them not to follow popular conventions concerning himself but pointed to a higher master (which happens to be their earthly leader) for further instructions.
The dexterity and logic of the posters really made me understand the illusory nature of these experiences. The laws of nature is all we need.
It also reminded me of a biblical verse (I don't know where exactly), "wisdom is the principal thing and in all your getting get understanding". Thanks and keep the good work.

@Mad Max - You seem believe very strongly in Karma - the law of moral causation(Whatever a man soweth, he shall reap).

Whilst i do not disagree with this, either as a Karmic or Christian principle, i find it to conflict with some of the examples you align it with.
Using David and Elijah as examples of this principle is contradictory. David was not in synergy with Gods word when he took Uriah's wife. It was premeditated and He committed a murder to make it happen. Moreover, God sent Nathan, to make it clear to David it was an abominable act. He told him precisely what he what would happen , and He eevn made David pronounce judgement on himself.

Contrast this with Elijah, whom you adjure got his comeuppance through the beheading of John the Baptist. Elijah was actually fulfilling Gods word as laid down in Deut 13:1-5, and Deut 18:20, unlike David. The Bible does not record Gods displeasure at this act as it did with David's. Moreover, Jehu did exactly what Elijah did, and he was also fulfilling Gods word - and there is no record of any karmic event regarding Jehu.

I don't believe the Law of Karma, which is also a biblical principle, can void, or act independently of Gods will.

Curiousmind:

@Justcool
SPIRITUAL AUTOMATIC WRITING :- Is a concept by which spirits Dictate or Take the hand of a Prophet to write messages, letters, Books etc

@Curiousmind
Thanks for your definition. I have heard of such practices; they all belong to modern psychic sciences.

Although I have never practiced them, I am very familiar with most of such practices; and I do not recommend it to any body. Such pastimes could be very dangerous and could lead one astray. Perhaps in another time, we can examine all such practices and also examine the dangers that could result from them. You can open another thread and we can discuss each of such practices exhaustively.

Thanks

agi-tuedor:

Reading through this thread is the best thing I have done today. It was most inspiring. The last posters really delved into a subject that was confusing to me prior to now. I have attended seminars on soul travel and honestly, the claims really made me doubt myself, just imagine that some claim to have chatted with Jesus on the inner planes, who instructed them not to follow popular conventions concerning himself but pointed to a higher master (which happens to be their earthly leader) for further instructions.
The dexterity and logic of the posters really made me understand the illusory nature of these experiences. The laws of nature is all we need.
It also reminded me of a biblical verse (I don't know where exactly), "wisdom is the principal thing and in all your getting get understanding". Thanks and keep the good work.

@agi-tuedor
Thanks for your contribution. You are a genuine seeker and an honest person. The spirit within you(your real self) is very much alive.

Remain blessed

Mad_Max:

I can state 'my' case, but I won't. And you've clearly stated you are looking for an argument, to prove my false assertion wrong and pick holes in my 'case'.


You already have your bold but true assertion as opposed to my bold but FALSE one. We'll agree to disagree, hmm? The world is big enough to contain everyone's assertions, true and FALSE.

ok. if u say so.

vescucci:

I couldn't stop laughing with the exchanges between Max and Noetic. Noetic, you should count yourself lucky she answered you. . . . . twice! Normally, she'll just ignore you, man. No vex

Hi All,

Thanks for the responses thus far.

For me, the anchor is Christ - not church, not religion not even christianity per se - and whilst I have no quibble with those that subscribe to reincarnation, the enunciation of it I have heard - on this thread at least - makes some implicit and to my mind questionable assertions, to wit;

- The work of Christ is not atonal, and pursuant to that man makes his own atonement - if he is good - or is doomed.
- The work of Christ is not salvific. Savation being something of a mute point or pretty much mirroring the outworking above.
- At the very least I believe I heard the omnipotence of God brought into question.
- Why did the Lord come to earth? No cogent reason and again as above, it didn't quite go to plan? Mans intent thwarting Gods will?

Not to mention claims such as Paul being a misogynist, contradicting The Lord, - never having met Him - and there being many ways to God? He is The Way, The Truth and The Life, no one comes unto the Father except by Him.

In an era when women were considered nothing more than chattel to be disposed of as men saw fit, Paul exhorted believers to "love their wives - have just the one - and live with them with understanding". Misogynist? Au contrairé.

Contradictory teaching? Paul was "co-opted" to preach the Gospel of The Lord in a way no one else was or ever will be. Paul met with the risen Lord the way we are all supposed to.

Its also clear that deception is rampant, not least due to some questionable spiritual practices. Nethertheless, I agree with the notion that God will lead those who are truly seeking Him.

God bless all who seek Him in truth and may He grant the grace to do so
TV

The science of spiritual Automatic writing has been in existence for Milleniums and it is not a new age practice per say

Soul Travel Experiences is not an illusion. It is do it Yourself practice and find the Truth for yourself. Nobody can find the Truth for You

The problems with most human beings is that they cant shift their Attention off from their physical body for 1 minute. They are so attach with their physical body. So when the soul migrate, they will be drifting around their physical body. Rejecting the idea that they have pass on (Death)

In soul Anatomy :- There are 24 chakras (power centers) that corresponds to each soul bodies and planes of existence. Your intellect (Brain/Mind) cant understand this things because it is from the superconcious mind, subconcious mind

This was how the human mind was created, to block informations like your past life (Reincarnation) Experiences and your daily unconscious soul Travel Experiences You have every night as dreams but in real sense they are unconscious soul Travel Experiences

The first 5 chakras corresponds with lower planes of Existences. The laws of Dualities, laws of attractions and laws of Homogenius species are all found on this planes

From the 6th - 23th chakras corresponds to higher planes of pure luminous. No bad only Good, No laws of Dualities, No laws of Attractions, No laws of Homogenius species. The only law there, is love (unconditional love) on this planes. The beings found here are all gods. Words cant describe this planes and words itself is under Time and Space. Here Space, Time, mind dont exist

NOTE :- THE ASTRAL, MENTAL, CAUSAL, ETHEREAL BODIES CANT COME TO THIS PLANES. THIS IS THE MAJOR DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SOUL TRAVEL AND ETHEREAL/MENTAL/CAUSAL/ASTRAL PROJECTIONS

The 24th chakra which corresponds with ALMIGHTY GOD plane. Here You are Now one with ALMIGHTY GOD (DIVINITY). You are now GOD. This is not blasphemy and it takes many Life Time to attain This and This is The ultimate goal for all souls

The Grail message Teachings stoped on the soul plane. They Teach You that it is not possible to be one with Divinity

Eckankar Teachings stoped on the 12th plane, They Teach You to be co-worker with God

I am neither an Eckist or a cross bearer (Grail Desciple). My school of Thought Teaches Souls whom are on their last reincarnation Evolution on planet Earth. I will keep you posted on the Name of my School of Thought

WHEN THE STUDENT IS READY, THE MASTER WILL APPEAR

There are gods in human flesh, living among us in our Day to Day lifes but the Average man cant perceive them. Some light Ascended beings appear as beggers, Doctors, School Teachers etc

Remain Bless

Mad_Max:



@m_nwankwo
I know you're well read. Do you read religious thought? Christian mysticism, Islam, Lamaist teaching,  Hinduism, Judaist esoterism, Buddhism, Catholic mysticism, oriental philosophies and ethical systems like the Tao, Shinto and Confucianism? Whic did you read and what did you think of them?

Hi Madmax. I do  not read religious thoughts anymore. It is over 20 years since I studied christian mystism, hinduism, Jewish mystisim, Budhism and a lot of philosophy. When  such books are offered to me, I take them but do not read them and I do inform the giver that I will not read it. If however the giver raises specific questions on his or her beliefs and I percieve that he is genuinely seeking, then I will turn to God in prayer and draw from the power of God the truth about the specific issue that the seeker or believer is interested in.  During my spare time I prefer watching Arsenal or Barcelona, listening to hipop, gospel and classic music.  As I told MyJoe, the path to God is simple where we human beings have not added our confusion. Clearly and lucidly, the son of God, Jesus admonished "Love God with all your being and love thy neighbour as thyself". This is the only path to spiritual development and ascent to the luminous kingdom of God.

Romeo4real:

@Mad Max - You seem believe very strongly in Karma - the law of moral causation(Whatever a man soweth, he shall reap).

Whilst i do not disagree with this, either as a Karmic or Christian principle, i find it to conflict with some of the examples you align it with.
Using David and Elijah as examples of this principle is contradictory. David was not in synergy with Gods word when he took Uriah's wife. It was premeditated and He committed a murder to make it happen. Moreover, God sent Nathan, to make it clear to David it was an abominable act. He told him precisely what he what would happen , and He eevn made David pronounce judgement on himself.

Contrast this with Elijah, whom you adjure got his comeuppance through the beheading of John the Baptist. Elijah was actually fulfilling Gods word as laid down in Deut 13:1-5, and Deut 18:20, unlike David. The Bible does not record Gods displeasure at this act as it did with David's. Moreover, Jehu did exactly what Elijah did, and he was also fulfilling Gods word - and there is no record of any karmic event regarding Jehu.

I don't believe the Law of Karma, which is also a biblical principle, can void, or act independently of Gods will.

I don't 'believe strongly' in the Hindu's Karma. I'm just learning and don't have the firmest grasp on this yet. Reincarnation isn't automatic, nor is it the only thing that can happen to one. But sowing and reaping is clearly biblical, and Christ did say John the Baptist was Elijah. As for Jehu, the writers of the Old Testament did not know we would be having this discussion and so fail to oblige us by recording every single event in every characters life till death and afterwards . Christ does not tell us anything about anyone else but the Baptist either, and then only because He was asked. It could be because it's really none of our business. Our own life is there to sort out.

If you believe God sends people to kill other people on his behalf, kindly stop bothering fundamentalist Muslims who do this. Embrace them instead. Shake them warmly by the hand. They're doing God's work.And please don't come back with something like your God is the true God and it's all right to kill in his name, but the Moslem God is the false God and it's wrong for Moslems to kill in his name. Please, anything but that. Murder is either wrong and against God's will in all times and all places from eternity to the present, or it isn't. And it is this God that told the Jews in one of his commandments, Thou shalt not kill.

If God set up the laws that undergirds the universe and one of them is sowing what you reap, how can it then turn around and be independent of God's will? HE put the thing there so it IS his will, no?

Thanks all.

justcool:

All these talks about dreams, visions, clairvoyance, and reincarnation are good if one seeks to find the Truth about these matters; but here I sense curiosity in some posters. Curiosity and seeking to experience these things just out of curiosity is very dangerous and can lead one away from the Truth.

This has been established. I am also in total agreement that wanting to experience for the sake of experiencing is inordinate. The search for truth ought to be what drives us. But you might agree that it only makes sense for someone from a materialist background to be wary of going it by faith alone in his search for the Truth, which is what believing without “experiencing” might sometimes come down to, seeing as so many have been duped through faith, which is often nothing more than being led by the nose. (This in no way detracts from that great and absolute truth already stated that love is what will take a human to the Kingdom of God.)

justcool:
Dreams, visions and clairvoyance have nothing to do with spiritual maturity.

I would think so. I suspect that someone who grew up in an environment where such things are not nurtured, or, like in my case, actively discouraged, would not have such endowments or would lose them due to disuse for the reason of his environment whatever spiritual maturity or endowments he may have been born with.

justcool:
Everybody have dreams and most people, at least once in their earth lives have had a vision or have been clairvoyant,

I do not believe this. In fact, I think you are off the mark. Everyone has ordinary dreams, but not everyone has the kind of dreams we are talking about hereabout.

justcool:
but this does not mean that they are spiritually mature. Training to expereince these things through occult practices is very dangerous and very weakening to the physical body; and once achieved, one cannot see anything on a higher level than his/her level of spiritual maturity.

Some people endanger their physical bodies at the cost of being able to see the beyond or perform astral travel and etc. But the beyond which they see is only their ethereal or astral environment and not anything worthy. Actually to some, it is better that they don’t see their ethereal environment. I will give an example: An inwardly impure man is surrounded by an impure ethereal environment, an environment that corressponds to his spritual state; being on earth and in the physical body makes it easier for him to become purer because one earth good and evil dwell side by side, by association with purer people on earth, he may change his ways and by emulating the purer people, he may soon also achieve some level of purity, and consequently his ethereal environment will change. But if he retires into himself and start practicing clairvoyance, modern psychic science and etc, he may succeed in opening the door that had hitherto protected him from his vile ethereal environment. And he will indulge in these practices, hearing and perceiving an ethereal environment that is at the same level with him, an environment that does not offer him an opportunity to become purer because in such environment only homogeneous spirits of the same impurity dwell. In so doing, this man forsakes this great gift of being on earth, and retires back to the ethereal; at the end when he dies, he finds out that he had not learnt the lessons he came to the earth to lean. Thus he had wasted his life on earth.

An inwardly mature spirit knows that being on earth is a great gift; he utilizes his energy in learning the lessons life on earth offers. It is not maturity to be able to perform astral travel or to be able to see or perceive ethereal things or astral things while neglecting your ability to live physically. It is like a child in primary one, who puts a hole on the wall of his classroom so that he can peep and see the next class -- class two. It happens that when this child (who while in class one boast of his knowledge of class two) finds himself promoted to class two, he will not be able to catch up with class two lessons because he neglected to learn the lessons of class one which is prerequisite for understanding the lessons of class two. Thus when people boast of their ability to travel in the astral, visit the astral planes, see visions, clairvoyance and etc, they are only revealing how inwardly immature they are. The procedures for learning to do these things weaken the physical body.

Occasionally and without occult training, one is allowed to see or perceive the beyond, in such cases it is a gift from above. But going through occult trainings to achieve these feats is very wrong. Also, occasionally, people are shown visions as a gift from above; but rather than inwardly and quietly reflecting on it to fully understand why the vision was given to them, they begin to toot their own horns. They begin to brag and tell people how clairvoyant they are. Such people cause unnecessary worries and make false predictions because their visions which were peculiarly fashioned for them, were not even understood by them in the first place. Ernest seekers keep personal visions to themselves and completely understand the visions; only when instructed to reveal the visions to people do they reveal it.  This should be the case all sorts of divination -- astrology, clairvoyance, visions, and prophecy. People who are too eager to tell others about their dreams, visions and psychic abilities are actually irresponsible enthusiasts who desire personal recognition. It is understandable that such people are not inwardly mature, thus their visions not really of any importance, they are only revelations of their ethereal or astral environment, an environment or a plane that may actually be lower than the earth. Any wonder why their predictions often fail. Some of the times what they see is actually forms, events, and environment created by their thoughts forms. This why their visions are always in accord with their religious and personal beliefs.

Some people argue that they need such occultic practices to know the beyond so that when they pass on they would not be strangers in the beyond. But this argument shows lack of understanding of the laws of creation which allows no gaps. Nature allows no gaps, towards the end of ones life, in old age (The phlegmatic stage of physical existence); the physical body's radiations changes and gradually he will be able to perceive the beyond; so that when he passes on he will not find himself in a strange environment. Ie in old age, towards the end of one's life, he/she will gradually beging to see the beyong; so that when he dies he finds himself in an enviroment that he/she has already became familier with during his/her old age on earth. This is how it is willed by the laws of God; but unfornatley so many people are denied of this gradual transition due to early death.

Thus in the laws of God lie everything that man needs, everything that he will ever need has been provided for. He only needs to walk calmly, neither with delay nor with hast; without any occult training or hurry to experience the beyond.

Every moment on earth is more important than any artificial experiencing of the beyond. There is nothing in the beyond (astral, and ethereal planes) so stupendous that one should hurry towards it; the same laws that guide the physical world guides the beyond. Actually there is no distinction between this world and the beyond.

Grasp life on earth with jubilant hands; experience the earth while on earth. The time for the beyond will come one day, when your physical body falls away, then the beyond will be all yours to experience.

Thanks for your insightful perspectives.

Mad_Max:

I don't 'believe strongly' in the Hindu's Karma. I'm just learning and don't have the firmest grasp on this yet. Reincarnation isn't automatic, nor is it the only thing that can happen to one. But sowing and reaping is clearly biblical, and Christ did say John the Baptist was Elijah. As for Jehu, the writers of the Old Testament did not know we would be having this discussion and so fail to oblige us by recording every single event in every characters life till death and afterwards . Christ does not tell us anything about anyone else but the Baptist either, and then only because He was asked. It could be because it's really none of our business. Our own life is there to sort out.

If you believe God sends people to kill other people on his behalf, kindly stop bothering fundamentalist Muslims who do this. Embrace them instead. Shake them warmly by the hand. They're doing God's work.And please don't come back with something like your God is the true God and it's all right to kill in his name, but the Moslem God is the false God and it's wrong for Moslems to kill in his name. Please, anything but that. Murder is either wrong and against God's will in all times and all places from eternity to the present, or it isn't. And it is this God that told the Jews in one of his commandments, Thou shalt not kill.

If God set up the laws that undergirds the universe and one of them is sowing what you reap, how can it then turn around and be independent of God's will? HE put the thing there so it IS his will, no?

Mad Max what kind of Christian are you?. . .You seem to believe in some aspects of the bible but disregard others completely, Not that I am saying it is right or wrong because I am in no position to say such a thing, I just want to know why you hold such a belief. . . .

I'll answer you in two posts.

You want to know why I believe some aspects of the bible but disregard others. You think, because people have been indoctrinated to think it's 'holy' and 'infallible', you must then either believe EVERYTHING it says or nothing at all? ALL OR NOTHING is a false position, a false dichotomy. You must realise that human beings are the most unreliable 'inspired' witnesses you can imagine. We have an incredible capacity to first deceive ourselves, and then go out and deceive others. The bible is a collection of writings by human beings, most of whom are humble enough to acknowledge this fact by NOT claiming divine authorship. From where then comes the absurd premise that I must believe every word ordinary human beings wrote as divine and infallible? If THEY claim divine authorship, then the duty falls on them to PROVE beyond all reasonable doubt, to supply irrefutable evidence that they are, in fact, channeling God and not merely relaying their own perspective on things.But then most of them do NOT claim divine authorship. From whence then comes the absurdity of their infallibility? Nowhere but indcotrination. And sometimes, plain
laziness on the side of Christians. Some so-called religious authority says, 'Here are some doctrines to believe. Thank you and goodbye', and they sit by the doctrines till they die.The FACT that the bible has been tampered with countless times doesn't help its infallibity case either. It was with the Roman Church for one thousand five hundred years before other people took it from them and made it public, so they had plenty of time to do whatever they wanted with it.

I know what you're asking next. If the bible has been tampered with how do I know what to believe and what to accept?
VERY EASY, that one. There are many ways. There are many scholars in different countries across many ages whose field of expertise is biblial history, verification and textual analysis. They've spent centuries at their work and there is an incredible amount of material available on the subject. They tend to agree on what the additions are and when it was added. One scholar is Bart Earhman, an American bible scholar. He has an ax to grind with Christianity becuase of his indoctrinated fundamentalist Christian past and his arguments are sometimes slanted, but his credentials as a scholar is SOLID adn his research and books very valuable. There are and have been many scholars in bible veracity for hundreds of years. They don't tell me what to believe though. Their reearch is helpful in separating what biblical authors actually wrote from the many, many additions and mistranslations. It's doubtful they'll ever get them all, but they're getting there.

Another thing is, God's laws and truths are eternal and are not confined to any one religion or tribe but are ABOVE religions, and hold true for ALL his creation. God has been revealing himself to men since time began. From the little they receive, religions spread like weed. Bear in mind that the human mind (brain) is complicated, as are human motivations, so not every truth or vision or whatever is God-inspired. Some are just outright religious hoax because you will always find people ready and willing to believe anything. A media house in Australia set out to see if they could create a religion from scratch. They secretly invented a religion, found a charismatic 'mystic' to be its proponent and launched the experiment. It succeeded beautifully. This 'mystic' attracted followers from many different countries, devoted to the death. When the media house sponsoring the hoax revelead it to the public, many of the adherents refused to believe it was a untrue and stuck fast to that religion. Invented right before their eyes! With how much more salt should you take so-called holy books and religious traditions that has had thousands of years to accrue credibility
and glamour and, er, 'infallibility'.

I'm not saying all religions are false. They're not. There are countless religious hoaxes and charlatans. But there are religious truths and the genuine articles as well. The fact that some are false presupposes that some must be true. Something is false only because there is the genuine to compare it against, otherwise it's not false at all. God is true and real and He forever reveals himself to us. But human beings are what they are, and there are no such thing as 'infallible' or holy books.