@ Enigba,
Remember the scriptures says
"the God of this world (i.e Satan) has blindfold their eyes
that they may not see". What those that mean?
see what? the inspiration you got is not from man
therefore no one can understand you, except he that has the spirit of God in him,
the hidden things are only reveal to we that whole heartedly receives him in our heart,
I never waste my time on such argument, you know why?
cos I being human cannot help God who is devine to fight,
he will fight for himself.
It is some illiterates that thinks that god cant help himself,
then they move around with swords to butcher people thinking that they are helping God,
that god they are helping is a maroon and dead god, that cant help himself,
and human being are helping him,
Everyone should wait for his day, when eternity shall down on him,
then we shall all know who is who,
Amma rana bata karya, ko badede, ko bajima.

No Jew or Non-Jew is a god or can ever be God. Men who think they are gods are worse than mad.

Thank you Ifele.

These deluded, colonised  fools are quick to lambast traditional beliefs as ''backward superstitions'' yet see no irony in their lunatic belief that some Jewish, virgin-born magician is going to fly down from heaven to solve all their problems.

Dumb idiots.

Meanwhile the white folks who taught them these fairytales have long since grown up and abandoned such rubbish.

@Rosikke
Ignorance is a disease that has killed many,
Mallam teaches u to wash yah booboom wit water 2 make ur nyash and body holy,
stupid idea, how did d outer pat of yah body make yah heart clean and pure?
man gota wash his mind 2 b holy, not bombom, OK.
fools caricatures, ubi wawan mutum, da bai san komai ba.

thunder fire your di** how dare you chat breeze bout person weh my life depend on

what is He,if not God?

For instance Peter stood up with the eleven disciples and addressed a crowd
saying:
Acts 2:22 “Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited
by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did
among you through him, as you yourselves know.”
For Peter, Jesus was a servant of God (confirmed in Matthew 12:18):
Acts 3:13 “The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers,
has glorified his servant Jesus.”

prety007:

what is He,if not God?

He explicitly said I am my water are 1. In the beginning was d word (Jesus) and the word was with God and de word was God. An understanding of de personality behind de name is wat u need. I might help u
danon4ever@yahoo.com

I developed my personal understanding of Jesus' role as a teacher and example, not God, and left all the confusing church teachings behind.
That is the reason why this thread really let me feel at peace,and I admired and thanked Allah Almighty been created me as Muslim.

@Matthew Jam: « #63 on: June 21, 2010, 06:03 PM »

Tell me a religious leader that has ever lived a blameless life like Isa (Jesus)
and I will tell you none.
Some are divorcees, other are killers that fought wars in one way or the other,
Some are demonic, others are adulterers/fornicators that change women like cloths,
some runs after worldly things to enrich themselves during their time,
some have 360 idols they attached to divinity and pray to,
e.t.c.
show me your friend (master) and I will tell you the manner of person you are.

You asked for one, I am presenting John son of Zachariya. He was a virgin, like Jesus. He never fought anybody, nor call anyone a fool, a viper nation, an adulterous people, or run out somebody from a plave like Jesus did to the Money changers. Now you have a person, you cant have a complaint about, thought somenody else may complain about Jesus. Is Jesus of better quality than John? Show us where John was of less quality, when I have listed from your book what many will consider as less than expected quality.

@Kieryn: « #20 on: May 18, 2010, 02:48 PM »

@jaidey. If you have the same personality qualities etc. like your father would it not be like you and your father are one?

Not really. Madam is the best to know who daddy is. Or will the son spend the night with madam without daddy skinning him alive when he sees little boy in his place? You think madam will accept son to stay in bed instead of daddy she is used to? The death of the son will be permanent, and there is no ressurrection for him, the pretending "father".

Because any one that sees you or knows you will say you are just like your father as if you were him.

Just like is not exactly like. Grand parents will never say you are their son, your father. Father's wife will never let you enter the bedroom and spend the nigt and perform daddy's function. I said that before. Daddy's friends will not invite you to their inner circle meeting to discuss their secrets as if it your father that is in there. Your siblings know who daddy is. They will not let you write and sign their school fees checks, because that will be fraud.


@Jaidey-one: « #21 on: May 18, 2010, 05:21 PM »

^^^ definitely yes. I have thesame authority my father has.

No you dont. Mommy will tell you that it is not your place to sit at the head of the table reserved for daddy, etc. I leave the rest to your imagination.

If i tell the housemaid to wash for me she dare not question my authority.

Its the house made. Just like ordinary persons that Jesus had authority on because he was a prophet, a representative like every prophets, eg Moses, Joseph who his fathe Jacob and other even prostrated their faces to.

She won't tell me i didn't employ her. That's just how it is.

Lets talk about mommy who is happy to be under daddy. Can you do the same. You will be shot dead by mommy and then your sibling and when daddy comes in you will be shot dead again even though you are. It is abomination. There cant be truly 2 masters in a household. The same reason that there is never 2 Gods, but One God, Who holds all the sways. Jesus aint it.


@kieryn: « #22 on: May 19, 2010, 01:33 AM »

@jaidey what i am trying to say just you see your dad and yourself as one as in same authority, whatever. That how God and jesus are one in that sense not that they are the same person.

I already gave many direct and obvious reasons that Daddy and son are not the same. Mom knows it, grand parents now it, uncles and aunts know it, daddy's cousins know it, daddy's friends know it, son siblings know it. The GM of daddy's business knows it. Even your High School principal, or your University president knows it. Everyone knows it, except you and other people who want to be ignorant like you.


@Jaidey-one: « #23 on: May 19, 2010, 07:58 AM »

^^^ definitely. . . The cub of a lion is a lion. No one will call it a goat

So is the kid of a goat will never be lion, or the kitten of a cat will never be chicken, or the chick of a chicken will neer be a duck. And the duckling of a duck will never be a cub of a bear. You see where am going with it? The child of a man will never be God, now God will never be a Man. Was Jesus son of man? Was Mary a mankind? How about the 2 geneologies, where did God come in in either? Who was that person that ties Jesus wit God among all the men isted?

@Mazaje: « #2 on: May 14, 2010, 11:37 AM »

What is wrong with this completely deluded slave of the blood thirsty arabian idol called allah? . . . .

Allah is different from allah. You are the one who knows where you find your allah. However Allah is not an idol, for there is no statue of Him? Or in your village in finland, idols are not represented by something physical? You think you are addressing the cross wearers? And as to bloodthirstyness, if Allah was blood thirsty, Muhammad would have wiped out the jews from the surface of Arabia, at east in his lifetme considering the acts of treason they perpetrated many times against the mutually agreed upon constitution that was to govern Madinans? If Allah was bloodthirsty, the Jewish woman who poisoned the meal of Muhammad (AS) should have been killed right there and then when she confessed to her sin, except that she was allowed to ive. If Alah was blood thirsty, Muhammad would have killed every inhabitant of Taif who had stoned him until blood and sand caked together with his sandals. If Alah was blood thirsty there would not have been a single soul remaining in Makka when Islam opened it. I have a trillion defenses, but the four above are enough and all you have to do is to disproof anyone of them.

It seems like banging your head while facing the direction of mecca has made you gone completely mad. . . .

No one bang head. Itt is haram to hurt yourself. Bowing and touching should not have any impact. Or when you touch anything you bang into it? By the way, we face the kaaba. If you are in Masjid haram, you face the Kaaba. If you are in Makka you face Haram if you cant see Kaaba, but if you can see it, you face it. If you are in other cities in Saudi Arabia, you face Makka, which is where Masjid Haram is which contain the Cubical Structure called Kaaba which is what we face. If you are in Finland, you face the direction of Makka, but in your heart you envision the kaaba in front of you.

Allah remains a myth. . . .

Not a myth. While Alah is a reality kept in the heart. Muhammad heard His voice. Companions saw Jibril coming many times to see Muhammad (read the ahadith of Jibril "he came to teach you your religion", and the Battle of Tabbok or the battle of the "jewish tribe" around Madina), and Jibri heard the voice of his Lord. You are free to deny Allah in Arabic. Obangiji in Hausa. Choose your poison man.

If you feel offended go and tie bombs around your waist and blow the next market place close to you if you like, . . .

What you said should not provoke anybody to anything. You have your way, you have no religion, no God, not created, no beginning and no end. You will live forever. What is it that will upset anybody in your statement, afterall, you did not begin with intercourse where sperm swam to fertilize the egg of mom? You are unique, you are an atheist who is not noticing that you are getting there, growing old. Soon, in fifty years from now, you will still be whatever age you are now. There will not be any graying of your hairs. You wil still be young and strong, but all those Finnish people you are hobnobbing with now will wither away. I hope you are rightly preparing to live forever?

Numbers 23:19:

God is not a man, that he should lie,
nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.

God is telling you He isnt a man because man lies. And He isnt the son of man, Jesus is reffered to in the Bible as the son of man tens and tens of times
How is he God when he says:

"I can of mine own self do NOTHING . . ." JOHN 5:30

Meaning without God he cant do nothing. This is what islam is telling you, worship God not His creation, worship the Helper not the helped!! Worship the Supplier not the supplied.

Jesus was the Christ the Messiah he was born miraculously but he wasnt God

chakula:

Numbers 23:19:

God is not a man, that he should lie,
nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.

God is telling you He isnt a man because man lies. And He isnt the son of man, Jesus is reffered to in the Bible as the son of man tens and tens of times
How is he God when he says:

"I can of mine own self do NOTHING . . ." JOHN 5:30

Meaning without God he cant do nothing. This is what islam is telling you, worship God not His creation, worship the Helper not the helped!! Worship the Supplier not the supplied.

Jesus was the Christ the Messiah he was born miraculously but he wasnt God

Dont just pull out a verse and use it ignorantly out of context to futher ur own agenda.
The bible already said The Word-is God, that became flesh Jesus.
Y not quote several places that called Jesus God. . .the creator of all things,
that there was nothin created that was not by him. , and u kno God created all things. . .
Jesus-the Word is God. He aint the Father (who is God) nor the Holy spirit(who is God). He is God, the Word.

He was called the son of man as a TITLE in a certain capacity. . . infact goin wit that argument u shud have said an animal- LAMB cant be God , that God is not an animal and Jesus was called a lamb. . Its just plain. . . wats the word again??

Even the demons he dealt with confessed they knew who he was! The Holy one. . and we kno no one is holy except God.
The issue is ur undrstandin of the word God or rather the Christian revelation of God is too mindbogglin for u to grasp.
And an attempt to intellectualize or put the infinite God in a logical box of ur finite mind outside the revelation that the bible provides will lead u no where. .



oNe

@DBR: « #77 on: Today at 07:25:41 PM »
[Quote]Dont just pull out a verse and use it ignorantly out of context to futher your own agenda.
The bible already said The Word-is God, that became flesh Jesus.[/quote]Who was the speaker of the bolded? Please say the name of the speaker and give your reason and proof of said name. Was any part of the New testament or that bolded part written in the earthly time of jesus? Do you say that jesus know that he was called "word that became flesh?" Please give reason and proof.

Y not quote several places that called Jesus God. . .the creator of all things,
that there was nothin created that was not by him. ,

WAs any of these said in front of Jesus and he alowed them to propagate such idea[s], though he said to the woman who called him a mere good teacher, by correcting her with a statement that proof to all he was not even good, which the specific GOODNESS belong to God, "Who is in Heaven". Please tell us why then did Jesus say, yor Lord and my Lord is but One God? Why then did Jesus prayed to a "God", if Jesus was that God? Did Jesus ever categorically state that he was that specific "Lord God"< considering his earlier denials? Why did he cry out "my God, my God, why has thou, forsaken me"? Would Jesus be denying his own position[s], including being the "king of Israel", both he denied? Show me that it was not the post Jesus era statement that you read in the Bible, put forward by those who wished somebody else is respnsible for their sins, an impossible feat?

and u kno God created all things. . .

Tell me what Jesus created, that was not in existence before him? Tell ,e why Jesus said "of myself, I can do nothing", if he was the Creator? Was he being modest, and should he be, when he is God? Who will challenge him? WHo can arrest God? Who can beat up God? Who can whip God? Who can humiliate God? Who can hang God? Who can kill God? If God dies, you believe those who killed him will not make sure he remained dead, so that they get rid of him and the death that he makes people experience? If God dies, dont you see that there will not be death, Judgement day, etc? Show me who took care of the creations when you said Jesus died, if he was God? If you argue that he took care of creation while he remained dead, then argue this then; why didnt he not make himself not die at all, and why cry out on the cross as he did, signifying that he was not happy of and not going along with the situation?

Jesus-the Word is God. He aint the Father (who is God) nor the Holy spirit(who is God). He is God, the Word.

Does it make sense that you have 3 Gods? Is that a monotheistic religion or polytheistic religion? And by the way, God existen before 'the Word" from His mouth was spoken. Check your Bible. Further, many things were created before "the word" was spoken. The first time "the word" was spoen was when God said "let there be light". So in essence, there are many things created before "the word". If "the word" came out after many things have been created, including the earth, and all the galxies and planetary systems, how can you say "the word" was before these things, and say jesus was that God Almighty the Creator? Show me your proofs, directly from your Bible.

He was called the son of man as a TITLE in a certain capacity. . .

Because he was from human race. simple. he was human and nothing about your wishful hope on him.

infact goin wit that argument u shud have said an animal- LAMB cant be God , that God is not an animal and Jesus was called a lamb. . ;/quote]Who called him lamb, but post Jesus era on earth people. The Bible writers. Do the Jews believe in any of the gobly gook that you are saying? No. The reason they will never accept christianity.

Its just plain. . . wats the word again??

Answer your own question, please. Refer to my statements above.

Even the demons he dealt with confessed they knew who he was!

Except Satan who drove him into the wilderness, instead of allowing him to preach in places where human resided. Except satan who tsked him three times. Except satan who shook him hard enoughthat he had to speak "the word" get away from me, satan. Please how is satan tempting God? Who created satan? How is satan so powerful to torent his creator god Jesus?

The Holy one. . and we kno no one is holy except God.

And Jesus said "why call me good, when the One Who is Good is God Who is not on earth but in Heaven," and I cant do anything of myself, but what God permits me to do, I can do. Now are you the one who is not teling the truth or was it Biblical jesus? You tell me.

The issue is your undrstandin of the word God or rather the Christian revelation of God is too mindbogglin for u to grasp.

And it was easy for you with be deluded. Who is iving in fanasy here? A man says he is nothing but a human being, a prophet and messenger like others. You said he is God. Yet he ate, was born and lived a human life. Who is so basic that cant think here?

And an attempt to intellectualize or put the infinite God in a logical box of your finite mind outside the revelation that the bible provides will lead u no where. .[quote]Is the Bible an infinite Book? No. Was it written by man? Yes. Is it changing with time? Yes.
An infinite Book will give clue to answer any and all questions. If I ask a christian to answer a single question fro me about what Jesus said say about the "Another comforter", they will give me all song and dance, yet aoid to give an answer, directly to my question.
Jesus said that the another comforter will lead people to all things (answer all questions). So I asked how is it that we as human being to enter and or go out of the bathroom? Can you give me in your own words, using what the Bible says from Jesus or earlier prophets, if you wish?

[/quote]

This is what islam is telling you, worship God not His creation, worship the Helper not the helped!! Worship the Supplier not the supplied.

so chakula u be muslim i did not know because i saw u and ogaga supporting/assisting ur selves and my scriptures told me that two can not walk together unless they agree amos 3:3 so paradventure u may turn out to be a very useful satanist

^^^ America walks with Israel. Are israelis Christians? Or is it Americans who are jews? Consult your scripture, again. Maybe you are wrong or your scripture is wrong.

MAN CAN BE FUNNY SOMETIME,I HOPE U WILL ALL LEARN FROM THESE

WHY MANY BIBLE SCHOLARS DO NOT ACCEPT “JESUS WAS GOD"?

Within the books of Holy Bible there are verses that are easy to understand, clear or unconditionally explicit and others are simply allegorical, ambiguous or obscure. When a “man of extraordinary faith” reads the passages from his “favored” version, he tries to hold fast to each and every verse that expressly, remotely or even dubiously supports his personal beliefs for "Lord Jesus". He steadfastly believes that with the addition of two key ingredients - “Reliance and Hope” - any seemingly doubtful and dubious verse can ultimately emerge as an easy to understand passage. A passage that would remove all his earlier reservations and convince him to accept Jesus Christ as his "True God". However, this kind of pietistic approach with blind faith does not alter the text that was originally written by the Gospel writers.

Let us survey what realistically happens when these obscure or cryptic verses are rationally studied by the bible scholars. Such scholarly studies are usually conducted from all encompassing overall perspectives. Following these studies often give us an insight into the primary source document. The language in with the text was written by the author. These are the tools that help the readers in arriving at the true understanding of the author's mind. One other tool that if often recommended is the use of "human mind", a blissful gift given by God. Why would Christ Jesus, the righteous teacher and messiah, teach us to love our God "with all our mind" (Matthew 22:37), if the use of our logic and human brain to understand God's Word was to be regarded as the non religious methodology?


LIST OF VERSES STUDIED:
(Section One)
1. "I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE" JOHN 10:30 Must read item.
2. "HE WHO HAS SEEN ME HAS SEEN THE FATHER" JOHN 14:9
3. "GO THEREFORE AND MAKE DISCIPLES IN THE NAME OF, " MT. 28:19
4. "FOR THERE ARE THREE THAT BEAR WITNESS, " 1 JOHN 5:8
5. ", LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE." GENESIS 1:26
6. "THOMAS SAID TO JESUS, 'MY LORD AND MY GOD" JOHN 20:28
7. ", AND (MAGI) FELL DOWN, AND WORSHIPPED HIM." MT. 2:11
(Section Two)
8. "BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS BORN, I AM" JOHN 8:58
9. ", AND SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD" MARK 16:19
10. ", IF YOU CONFESS JESUS AS LORD" ROMANS 10:9-10
11. "IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD" JOHN 1:1to 9 and 14 Must read item.
12. "AND HIS NAME SHALL BE , ALMIGHTY GOD" ISAIAH 9:6
13. "AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL" MATTHEW 1:23
14. "WALKED UPON A SEA; RAISED LAZARUS" MT. 14:25 & JOHN 11:44
15. "EXISTED IN THE FORM OF GOD, DlD NOT REGARD EQUALITY" PHIL. 2:6/7
16. "I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA" REVELATION 1:8 New item.
More to be added soon,

Verse No. 1
Jesus said: "The Father and I are one." (John. 10:30).
Perceived by the "man of extraordinary faith": This verse proves, Jesus was God, like his Father.

Study No. 1
In Greek, the language of the John's Gospel, the word 'heis' (masc.) means; 'Numerical one' and 'hen' (neut.); means
'Unity - in purpose'. In this verse apostle John has used 'hen' (Strong's #1520). Hence, the apostle was speaking of the "Unity in purpose". Those who may not be familiar with the Greek language or cannot have the access to the world famous concordance by James Strong may please look up the marginal notes in New American Standard Bible (NASB), to find out the specific meaning of this word with reference to this verse.

The next obvious question could be; What was that "Unity in purpose"? It was of conveying the Divine Message to mankind. Jesus passed on that Message and his Mission to his disciples. After having done that Jesus declared:
"And the glory which Thou hast given me, I have given to them (disciples); that they may be one, just as we are one."
(John 17:22).

Jesus also said: "Holy Father, protect them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one, as we are one."
(John 17:11).

In both the above verses the Greek word used by the apostle is 'hen' (Strong's # 1520). No upright and God fearing individual would go to the length of admitting that Jesus had declared the Twelve Disciples to be "co-equal" in status, like him or like his Father.

A question often raised is; If Jesus had not declared himself being "God", why did the Jews pick up the stones and were ready to kill him, upon hearing these words? The reply appears in the text that follows and there also appears a noteworthy conversation between Jesus Christ and Jews. Jesus did acknowledge before this angry crowd (see verse 36), that:

a) He was "sanctified" by God.
(This act cannot be performed unless there are "two distinctly independent entities or parties". One party was doing the act of "sanctifying" while another was being "sanctified".

b) He was "sent " by God.
(This text proves; One entity was "the sender", while the other was "the sent".

c) He was "son" of God.
(This text proves; Jesus who had earlier quoted a verse from the Psalm to his contenders, was only asserting to be "the children of the Most High". Please read Psalm 82:6 and 7, for the details).

To say otherwise would simply indicate; Jesus who was "God Himself", upon seeing the stones being pickedwas petrified. He either mutated or modified his earlier Declaration of being "God" and involuntarily acknowledged that he was merely;
"a child of God, sent by God and sanctified by God".

Study Supportive Passage:
Jesus said: "I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I." (Jn. 14:28). This verse unequivocally refutes the assertion that Jesus was "co-equal" in status, with his Father.

Note:
Anyone who thinks that the word "greater" does not necessarily mean being greater in authority or higher in status, may please read John 13:16 along with 17:3.


Verse No. 2
Jesus said: "He who has seen me has seen the Father."
(John 14:9).
Perceived by the "man of extraordinary faith": This verse proves Jesus was God.

Study No. 2
One day to prove a point, Jesus picked up a child and said to his disciples; "Whoever receives this child in my name receives me; and whoever receives me receives Him who sent me;" (Luke 9:48).

This specific act of Christ Jesus and/or his explicit statement concerning this Child does not make; the Child and the Christ, co-equal or one in status.

The next plausible question would be did Jesus admit he too was sent by God just as he was sending the Child? The answer is found several verses. Here are two:

Jesus said: ", and that I do nothing on my own, but I speak these things as the Father instructed me." John 8:28.

Jesus said: ", I have not spoken on my own, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment about what to say and what to speak." John 12:49.

Study Supportive Passage:
Jesus said; "Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master; neither one who is sent greater than the one
who sent him." (John 13:16).

Verse No. 3
Jesus said; "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit," (Matthew 28:19).

Perceived by the "man of extraordinary faith": This verse endorses the 'Doctrine of Trinity'.

Study No. 3
Peake's Commentary on the Bible, published in 1919, is regarded by many scholars to be the standard book of reference for the Bible study. Commenting on the above quoted verse, it records; "This mission is described in the language of the church and most commentators doubt that the trinitarian formula was original at this point in Mt.'s Gospel, since the NT elsewhere does not know of such a formula and describes baptism as being performed in the name of the Lord Jesus (e.g. Ac. 2:38, 8:16, etc.)."

Tom Harpur, author of several bestsellers and a former professor of New Testament, writes in his book 'For Christ's Sake'; "All but the most conservative of scholars agree that at least the latter part of this command was inserted later. The formula occurs nowhere else in the New Testament, and we know from the only evidence available (the rest of the New Testament) that the earliest Church did not baptise people using these words - baptism was "into" or "in" the name of Jesus alone."

The quoted verse (irrespective of it being authentic or otherwise), does not indicate that the three names mentioned are "co-equal" in their status and were also "co-eternal" in the time frame. Unless these two important qualifications are acknowledged, the verse fails to endorse the fundamental belief and principle of the 'Doctrine of Trinity'.

Any one who joins Islam also recites two names ; "Allah" and "Muhammad", while admitting the ordained Islamic "Confession of Faith". But the later is regarded as the "servant" and "messenger" of Allah.

If the Father and His Son were both in "existence" from the Day One, and no one was, a micro second before or after, and, no one was "greater or lesser" in status, then why one is called the Father and the other His begotten Son?

Study Supportive Passage:
"And Peter said to them, 'Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins;, '" (Acts 2:38).

It is most unlikely that apostle Peter could have disobeyed the specific command of his master for baptizing in the "three names" and instead baptized these people in "one" name.

Verse No. 4
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father,
the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one."
I John 5:7.
Perceived by the "man of extraordinary faith": This verse endorses the 'Doctrine of Trinity'.

Study No. 4
The text quoted above does appear in the older editions of the Kings James Version, but has been omitted in the recent editions of the Revised Version. It does not appear in the New American Standard Bible, the New English Bible, the New Revised Standard Version (Catholic Edition), the Revised English Bible, the New International Version and many other revised versions because the quoted passage does not appear in the older Greek manuscripts.

Renowned historian Edward Gibbon calls the addition a "Pious Fraud" in his famous history book 'Decline and Fall of Roman Empire'.

Peak's commentary on the subject reads; "The famous interpolation after "three witnesses" is not printed even in RSV., and rightly. It cites the heavenly testimony of the Father, the logos, and the Holy Spirit, but is never used in the early trinitarian controversies. No respectable Greek MS contains it. Appearing first in a late 4th-cent. Latin text, it entered the Vulgate and finally the NT of Erasmus.

Study Supportive Passage:
Notwithstanding the above rejections, here is the next verse, number 8, as it is found in Kings James Version;
"And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one."

Are these three witnesses "co-equal"? Can blood be substituted with water? Can water be regarded as the same in any respect with the Spirit? Just as the spirit, the blood and the water are three separate entities, so are the first three witnesses, namely; the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Verse No. 5
"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, " Gen. 1:26.
Perceived by the "man of extraordinary faith": The use of terms "us" and "our" proves; the God created man through Jesus in "their" image. The Creator was not a singular entity.

Study No. 5
The editors of King James Version (The Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible, 6th edition) write this in their commentary:

"The Hebrew word for God is 'Elohim' (430), a plural noun. In Genesis 1:1, it is used in grammatical agreement with a singular verb `bara' (1254), created. When plural pronouns are used, "Let us make man in our image after our likeness," does it denote a plural of number or the concept of excellence or majesty which may be indicated in such a way in Hebrew? Could God be speaking to angels, the earth, or nature thus denoting Himself in relation to one of these? Or is this a germinal hint of a distinction in the divine personality? One cannot be certain."

The response to the commentators remark; "One cannot be certain", lies not very far, but in the next verse (Genesis 1:27), which reads; "And God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them." This statement tells us that the actual act of creation when performed, was performed by "Him" and in "His" image and not by "Us" in "Our" image.

Furthermore, upon reading the following four verses from the Book of Genesis in connection with the creation, wherein the pronoun used by the author is "he" and not "we", clears the doubt and positively indicates; God Created His Creation Himself. The verses are Genesis 1:31, 2:2; 2:8 and 5:2.

Study Supportive Passage:
"And he (Jesus) answered and said unto them, 'Have you not read, that He which made them at the beginning made them male and female.'" (Matthew 19:4). This statement by Jesus also affirms that the Creator was a singular entity.


Verse No. 6
Thomas said to Jesus; "My Lord and my God." John 20:28
Perceived by the "man of extraordinary faith": Since Jesus did not rebuke Thomas, upon hearing the above explicit statement declaring him as God, proves he was God.

Study No. 6
Here is the entire text from the 'New American Standard Bible' John 20 : 27-28:

"Then he (Jesus) said to Thomas, 'Reach here your finger, and see my hands, and reach here your hand, and put it into my side; and be not unbelieving, but believing.' Thomas answered and said to him, 'My Lord and my God!'"

Please observe the mark of exclamation (!) at the end of the phrase. The King James Version has removed the exclamation mark.

Please notice there was no question asked in the entire narration. Hence, the text which reads "Thomas answered" is inaccurate.

The last phrase "My Lord and my God!" was not an answer but it was an outburst by Thomas, having seen something inexplicable and baffling. It is not unusual that a man cries out; "O' my God!" when he sees something totally bizarre.

Below are the texts from two reputed versions of the Bible
that support what Thomas said was not an answer to any question.

'New English Bible': Thomas said, "My Lord and my God!"

'Phillips Modern English Bible': "My Lord and my God!" cried Thomas.

Study Supportive Passage:
Apostle John writes, immediately after the discourse between Jesus and Thomas; "Many other signs therefore Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples,which are not written in this book; but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ."

If John had recognized the answer by Thomas to be a testimony for the 'Deity of Jesus', and the observed silence by Jesus to be his acquiesce to such a testimony, then the apostle John would have asked us to believe "Jesus is the God", instead of "Jesus is the Christ" in the above verse.

Verse No. 7
"And when they (wise men from east) were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and (they) fell down, and worshipped him." Matthew 2:11
Perceived by the "man of extraordinary faith": Worshipping anyone other than God is a major sin and yet the wise knowingly worshipped Jesus, shows he was God.

Study No. 7
The Greek word used by the apostle in the above verse is 'prosekunesan'. It is derived from 'proskuneo' (4352), which literally means bow, crouch, crawl, kneel or prostrate.

The three wise men were looking for the prophesied Messiah. Upon seeing the one, they bowed to the ground and paid their homage which is expected. There is no text of their prayers. The editors of K.J.V. have mistranslated the text. Below are the two versions with the correct translations.

Study Supportive Passage:
In the 'New English Bible' the text of the quoted verse reads; 'bowed to the ground".

In the 'New Revised Standard Version' the text of the quoted verse reads: "they knelt down and paid him homage".

TO BE CONTINUE:PART TWO

loading,

mathew jam:

@Rosikke
Ignorance is a disease that has killed many,
Mallam teaches u to wash yah booboom wit water 2 make your nyash and body holy,
silly idea, how did d outer pat of yah body make yah heart clean and pure?
man gota wash his mind 2 b holy, not bombom, OK.
fools caricatures, ubi wawan mutum, da bai san komai ba.

u lack knowledge yet u throw insult.ABLUTION IS JUST A PHYSICAL ACT MEANT TO CLEANSIN THE BOBY AND NOT THE SOUL,AS PRAYERS ARE PERFORM IN CONGREGATION.

@Mathew jam: « #67 on: June 22, 2010, 12:36 PM »

@Rosikke
Ignorance is a disease that has killed many,
Mallam teaches u to wash yah booboom wit water 2 make your nyash and body holy,

The Commander is Allah, the teacher is His Prophet (AS). Mallam has nothing to do with it. He is commanded and taught the same thing. The teacher (AS) did the same thing he was commanded along with us. Mathew, if your body is dirty, like your filthy front and back, etc, if you can keep it clean, how can you keep the heart you dont see clean? Dont you know cleaningness is a beginning to holiness, while your filthiness will keep you thinking you may be holy but actually with shaitan?

silly idea, how did d outer pat of yah body make yah heart clean and pure?

How do you keep your inside clean when yu cant even keep the out clean? Your idea is even sillier.

man gota wash his mind 2 b holy, not bombom, OK.

How do you manage to wash your mind when you can wash clean the bombom you see?

fools caricatures, ubi wawan mutum, da bai san komai ba.

Go wash you bombom you crusted bombom filthy mouth you. You are what you eat; pig eater. Your filthy body is a sign that your inside must likely be filthy to keep the uniformity of your life.

no one is replying my post ooohhh.ALLAH IS GREAT

how can we reply such a long post, do you think we are all jobless?

italo:

how can we reply such a long post, do you think we are all jobless?

AS I LAID MY EYES ON THIS POST I BURST OUT IN LAUGHTER,NOW U DON'T HV TIME FOR GOD.MAY ALLAH FORGIVE US ALL.

italo:

how can we reply such a long post, do you think we are all jobless?

WELL U CAN START FROM"LIST OF VERSES STUDIED"

Pimpu, your post is very long and you raised so many points that I cannot answer to all of them at the same time. It's like accusing a man of lying and as he's trying to defend himself you say again that he stole. Generally people who do this are only trying to evade the truth but I won't judge you since I don't know you very well. However, I think the best way I can summarize my answer for you is to say: the Bible was written by men of "extraordinary faith" and addressed to people who were expected to have "extraordinary faith". It's very little use reading the Bible with a purely scholarly disposition because that wasn't even the mindset of those who wrote it and if you read it with such mindset, it's little use, still, trying to make someone with "extraordinary faith" to understand it the way you do.

The reason I am even writing this at all is so that you'll know the reason some people might not be replying your post and not go on thinking that no one has an answer for you. But if after this you still want us to argue about the issues you have raised, then we can start, but not from the "list of verses studied" but from your little write-up before that.

Before I go, don't be so quick to make up your mind about things. The fact that I said "how can we reply such a long post, do you think we are all jobless?" doesn't mean I don't have time for God and you know that too well. YOUR POST IS NOT GOD!

May God be with you.

i no follow una dey discuss this oh. all i know and believe is that there is God the father, God te son and God the holy spirit. all are equal and one. none was born.

italo:

Pimpu, your post is very long and you raised so many points that I cannot answer to all of them at the same time. It's like accusing a man of lying and as he's trying to defend himself you say again that he stole.

SAYING MY POST IS TOO LONG IS NOT AN EXCUSE I EXPECTED FROM U PROVIDED MY POINT ARE FACTUAL,BUT SAYING I RAISED SO MANY POINT SOUND SENSIBLE,BRO I NEVER SAID ANSWER EVERY TIN AT D SAME TIME.INFACT IT WILL MAKE MORE SENCE IF WE TAKE IT ONE AFTER THE OTHER.
AM NOT GOING TO COMMENT ON OTHER TINS U SAID JUST TO KEEP US FOCUS ON THE POINT AT HAND.SO CHALANGE THE FIRST POINT AM ALL URS,

Verse No. 1
Jesus said: "The Father and I are one." (John. 10:30).
Perceived by the "man of extraordinary faith": This verse proves, Jesus was God, like his Father.

Study No. 1
In Greek, the language of the John's Gospel, the word 'heis' (masc.) means; 'Numerical one' and 'hen' (neut.); means
'Unity - in purpose'. In this verse apostle John has used 'hen' (Strong's #1520). Hence, the apostle was speaking of the "Unity in purpose". Those who may not be familiar with the Greek language or cannot have the access to the world famous concordance by James Strong may please look up the marginal notes in New American Standard Bible (NASB), to find out the specific meaning of this word with reference to this verse.

The next obvious question could be; What was that "Unity in purpose"? It was of conveying the Divine Message to mankind. Jesus passed on that Message and his Mission to his disciples. After having done that Jesus declared:
"And the glory which Thou hast given me, I have given to them (disciples); that they may be one, just as we are one."
(John 17:22).

Jesus also said: "Holy Father, protect them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one, as we are one."
(John 17:11).

In both the above verses the Greek word used by the apostle is 'hen' (Strong's # 1520). No upright and God fearing individual would go to the length of admitting that Jesus had declared the Twelve Disciples to be "co-equal" in status, like him or like his Father.

A question often raised is; If Jesus had not declared himself being "God", why did the Jews pick up the stones and were ready to kill him, upon hearing these words? The reply appears in the text that follows and there also appears a noteworthy conversation between Jesus Christ and Jews. Jesus did acknowledge before this angry crowd (see verse 36), that:

a) He was "sanctified" by God.
(This act cannot be performed unless there are "two distinctly independent entities or parties". One party was doing the act of "sanctifying" while another was being "sanctified".

b) He was "sent " by God.
(This text proves; One entity was "the sender", while the other was "the sent".

c) He was "son" of God.
(This text proves; Jesus who had earlier quoted a verse from the Psalm to his contenders, was only asserting to be "the children of the Most High". Please read Psalm 82:6 and 7, for the details).

To say otherwise would simply indicate; Jesus who was "God Himself", upon seeing the stones being pickedwas petrified. He either mutated or modified his earlier Declaration of being "God" and involuntarily acknowledged that he was merely;
"a child of God, sent by God and sanctified by God".

Study Supportive Passage:
Jesus said: "I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I." (Jn. 14:28). This verse unequivocally refutes the assertion that Jesus was "co-equal" in status, with his Father.

Note:
Anyone who thinks that the word "greater" does not necessarily mean being greater in authority or higher in status, may please read John 13:16 along with 17:3.
WAITING,

:oDon't mind this cross-worshippers

@Ice23« #90 on: Yesterday at 09:35:51 AM »

i no follow una dey discuss this oh. all i know and believe is that there is God the father, God te son and God the holy spirit. all are equal and one. none was born. 4:

Yes. Right. Jesus was not born. Mary the virgin before something climmbed/mounted [overshadowed and came upon] her, did not exist, either. And 1 father, plus 1 spirit, plus 1 son is still 1.


Surah An Am [Chapter 6, verses 100-102] spoke about association with Allah; the arab pagans, one of the associations with Allah is jinn, and the christian says it a human male who they call son, is the association with Allah. Allah says He is no doubt the ONLY LORD< GOD the Creator Worthy of all Worship.

But they have attributed to Allah partners - the jinn, while He has created them - and have fabricated for Him sons and daughters. Exalted is He and high above what they describe

[He is] Originator of the heavens and the earth. How could He have a son when He does not have a companion and He created all things? And He is, of all things, Knowing.

That is Allah , your Lord; there is no deity except Him, the Creator of all things, so worship Him. And He is Disposer of all things.

SAYING MY POST IS TOO LONG IS NOT AN EXCUSE I EXPECTED FROM U PROVIDED MY POINT ARE FACTUAL,BUT SAYING I RAISED SO MANY POINT SOUND SENSIBLE,BRO I NEVER SAID ANSWER EVERY TIN AT D SAME TIME.INFACT IT WILL MAKE MORE SENCE IF WE TAKE IT ONE AFTER THE OTHER.
AM NOT GOING TO COMMENT ON OTHER TINS U SAID JUST TO KEEP US FOCUS ON THE POINT AT HAND.SO CHALANGE THE FIRST POINT AM ALL URS,

OK, since you insist I'll just go straight to your first point. I'll show you how the Greek word 'hen', when used in the Bible doesn't necessarily mean "unity in purpose" like you said but sometimes means 'single' or 'single being'. Pls read these Bible verses below.

"since indeed God is one [hen]" Romans 3:30
"there is no God but one [hen]" 1 Corinthians 8:4
"yet for us there is but one [hen] God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one [hen] Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him." 1 Corinthians 8:6
"Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one [hen]." Galatians 3:20
"There is one [hen] body and one [hen] Spirit, one [hen] hope, one [hen] Lord, one [hen] faith, one [hen] baptism, one [hen] God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all." Ephesians 4:4-6
"For there is one [hen] God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," 1 Timothy 2:5
"You believe that God is one [hen]. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19

So since the rest of your argument on "study no. 1" is based on the your perception that 'hen' (as used in the Bible) exclusively means unity of purpose and I have proved otherwise, can we - without wasting time - nullify all these:

Study No. 1
In Greek, the language of the John's Gospel, the word 'heis' (masc.) means; 'Numerical one' and 'hen' (neut.); means
'Unity - in purpose'. In this verse apostle John has used 'hen' (Strong's #1520). Hence, the apostle was speaking of the "Unity in purpose". Those who may not be familiar with the Greek language or cannot have the access to the world famous concordance by James Strong may please look up the marginal notes in New American Standard Bible (NASB), to find out the specific meaning of this word with reference to this verse.

The next obvious question could be; What was that "Unity in purpose"? It was of conveying the Divine Message to mankind. Jesus passed on that Message and his Mission to his disciples. After having done that Jesus declared:
"And the glory which Thou hast given me, I have given to them (disciples); that they may be one, just as we are one."
(John 17:22).

Jesus also said: "Holy Father, protect them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one, as we are one."
(John 17:11).

In both the above verses the Greek word used by the apostle is 'hen' (Strong's # 1520). No upright and God fearing individual would go to the length of admitting that Jesus had declared the Twelve Disciples to be "co-equal" in status, like him or like his Father.

A question often raised is; If Jesus had not declared himself being "God", why did the Jews pick up the stones and were ready to kill him, upon hearing these words? The reply appears in the text that follows and there also appears a noteworthy conversation between Jesus Christ and Jews. Jesus did acknowledge before this angry crowd (see verse 36), that:

a) He was "sanctified" by God.
(This act cannot be performed unless there are "two distinctly independent entities or parties". One party was doing the act of "sanctifying" while another was being "sanctified".

b) He was "sent " by God.
(This text proves; One entity was "the sender", while the other was "the sent".

c) He was "son" of God.
(This text proves; Jesus who had earlier quoted a verse from the Psalm to his contenders, was only asserting to be "the children of the Most High". Please read Psalm 82:6 and 7, for the details).

To say otherwise would simply indicate; Jesus who was "God Himself", upon seeing the stones being pickedwas petrified. He either mutated or modified his earlier Declaration of being "God" and involuntarily acknowledged that he was merely;
"a child of God, sent by God and sanctified by God".

Study Supportive Passage:
Jesus said: "I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I." (Jn. 14:28). This verse unequivocally refutes the assertion that Jesus was "co-equal" in status, with his Father.

Note:
Anyone who thinks that the word "greater" does not necessarily mean being greater in authority or higher in status, may please read John 13:16 along with 17:3.
WAITING,

Thank you very much. On to the next one, right?

For a detail about this, please see the Jehovah's Witnesses website
www.jw.org