@Planner
You see Igbo people are naturally ahead of the niger-delta people in fields of human endeavor. Probably that is what is making you people very very unhappy. I am an igbo person and Iam very very proud of my heritage.

The problem with the statment above is that it implies some sort of genetic superiority. I don't believe in genetic superiority of any tribe, race, or culture.

Historically, the Igbos made some mistakes, so did the Niger-deltans, and others.

I'm interested in discussing those mistakes with a view of not repeating them.

Naijaking:

I called for the same maturity, for deep introspection so as to learn and correct the mistakes of the past. Watching this thread however, it would appear that the main discussants aren't interested in any form of pragmatism. If folks would rather bicker and fight, then hey, maybe they should go ahead.

McKren:

Laudate

There is nothing like trying to defend the indefensible, the question is,

Is fishing the historical culture and means of livelihood of people of that region? yes it is.
If they are, is it wrong or derogatory to call them sons of fishermen ? no it is not.
Like ONO pointed out even his own grand-dad was a fisherman.
Is it derogatory to call someone son-of-fisherman or son-of-farmer, it is not in common knowledge to do so.


Are the children of fishermen of yesteryears carring guns now and kidnapping people? that is the fact, while that satement could be derogatory it is happening in our society everyday.

You Laudate did not counter that or accuse her of abusing the act of Kidnapping. You were claiming she is looking down on fishermen which the statement by babyosisi did not suggest.


For the records this is what she said

Am quite familiar with what she said, and I don't need another repetition. Thanks.  

I'm just at a loss as to why you have chosen to defend her without letting her clarify her points, when it is so obvious that she can speak for herself. Babyosisi has used the terms 'fishing' and 'son-of-a-fisherman' in the past, in several other posts on this forum, and each time it was done in a manner that reeked of condescension. No one ever took her up on those remarks, because it looked as if she was merely responding to issues that were provocative. But unfortunately, this pattern has become a part of her style.

Asking if: "Is fishing the historical culture and means of livelihood of people of that region? yes it is.
If they are, is it wrong or derogatory to call them sons of fishermen ? no it is not.
Like ONO pointed out even his own grand-dad was a fisherman. Is it derogatory to call someone son-of-fisherman or son-of-farmer, it is not in common knowledge to do so, " is like saying that Igbos control the fake drugs market which thrives in Onitsha. It may be true, but the intent is so obviously bad.

But then, you are free to see, whatever it is that you wish to see, and free to believe, whatever catches your fancy.

Biafra or no Biafra, does any one know the extent of the environmental impact of the Exxon-Valdez oil spill in Alaska in the 1990s?

If you appreciate that, then you would understand that if you live within 100-150 miles from the coast you're likely to face the impact of a major oil disaster in naija, given the way things are going.

That distance, by my estimation extends all the way to Aba, Umuahia, Enugu, Onitsha, Awka, and even Abakaliki.

ono:

Laudate,
You see, these people have been ''programmed'' to defend what's theirs, even when the person is at fault. You better don't waste precious time answering them.

The main point has been made: The Igbos lost the Biafran War because they did not exhaust all other possible means of averting the War, and why was that? Answer: They employed the crudest possible means at resolving ordinary misunderstanding at the time. They allowed themselves to be blinded by[b] pride, greed, shortsightedness[/b], and I-know-it-all attitude towards the issues at stake. Point Blank.

I know the above will draw another thunderous condemnation from the Igbos. But I have developed thick skin for their unguarded utterances. It's in their blood.

@Ono, equating "an ordinary misunderstanding" to a pogrom is just plain ridiculous .

RichyBlacK:

@Ono, equating "an ordinary misunderstanding" to a pogrom is just plain ridiculous .

Is that "programmed" or "pogrom" Two vastly different concepts.

lol@ Ono saying he has nothing against Igbos, the guy is mentally retarded, he only thinks oil, oil that doesn'e belong to him.

It's weird and hilarious at the same time when people repeatedly narrow down the Civil war to Oil and Elf/Total and this include both the remote and immediate causes of the war. . . these same set of people keep reminding us how their forefathers went to their backyard, planted maize and okra and lo and behold! They blossomed into oil so therefore anything you do, you're doing it because of oil. . . the weirdest part, these people by proximity are pretty much closer to the Igbos and have a lot more in common than any other ethnic group in this country! Wonders shall never end.

Back to topic. What can I say, people have a penchant for rewriting history to suit their way of thinking, it's nothing new and I easily dismiss such cheap attempts with a simple shrug,no matter how ridiculous they might be. I guess we might as well blame Ojukwu for dropping bombs in hospitals and refugee camps or rounding up unarmed civilians in churches and market squares and gunning them down like animals. . . I guess he takes the blame for that.

Bottom line, Igbo s have moved on since Imo river, take it or leave it, but the big question is can other Nigerians honestly put down the Post civil war Igbo paranoia? It's like a hideous monster that never fades away no matter how hard you try to turn away. Our best bet right now is not to point fingers or make up ridiculous claims (Oil and Total/Elf) but rather we should figure a way to make this union of tribes work, going our separate ways isn't going to cut it and war is definitely not going to cut it either, we are crawling on our knees at the time of peace. . . you just can't throw war in the mix. Go and ask people who were directly involved in the Civil war and they will candidly tell you war ain't it. I am privileged to know people from both sides who were there from the beginning (Coup-genocide) to the end. These people will give you the true low down on the war,not some ridiculous oil and Total/Elf theory. It will all begin when people stop throwing tantrums and false claims and simple acknowledge the easily verifiable fact that Igbos have moved on, since 1970!

We need each other, whether you like it or not, won't take anything away from this fact. No man is an island.

Civil War Still Possible – Wole Soyinka
BY Thisday Newspaper
DATE : Wednesday, 06 September 2006

Nobel Laureate, Professor Wole Soyinka, has warned that the continued agitations of power shift by a section of the country could lead to another civil war and the notion of divine right to rule by any section of Nigeria must cease, saying it is undemocratic.

He described charges of treasonable felony for which certain ethnic militia leaders, including Alhaji Mujahid Asari Dokubo of the Niger Delta Volunteer Force (NDVF), Ralph Uwazurike of the Movement for the Actualisation of the Sovereign State of Biafra (MASSOB), and Gani Adams of the Oodua Peoples Congress (OPC) as spurious and not in tune with democratic tenets.

Speaking last night at the public presentation of his memoirs, ‘You Must Set Forth at Dawn,’ Soyinka said the injustices and marginalization that led to the 1967-70 civil war were still rife, a development he said could yet plunge the nation into another civil war.
Said Soyinka: “Now, I spoke about civil war. I spoke about our lessons. What should be our lessons from the civil war? What should be our lessons from injustices, from marginalisation. From the killings and claims of the divine right to rule.

This is something against which I have always stood. But, however misunderstood it is, any section of the country which believes it has the divine right to rule and expresses that by whatever other name-power shift, power return, et-cetera, et-cetera, they should understand the potential consequences of this kind of position.

“They should understand that that is kind of mentality that ruled in racially-torn societies like Apartheid South Africa. It is the kind of mentality, which dominates Sudan today, which, in fact, has brought it close to Somalia. This notion of superiority, this notion of divinely given right to dominance has got to cease in this nation.

Continued the Nobel laureate: “I am talking about the injustices, the contradictions of society which are still very much with us. It means that we shouldn’t underestimate the possibility of another civil war breaking out. And, therefore, we should accept the moral and civil responsibilities of acting in ways, which do not accelerate the tempo of events and which in fact, go towards ensuring that we do not undergo another trauma of a civil war.

“People whose interest in what happens in society is sole self-advancement. They want to dominate the scene, that they alone represent the nation. I think that we should see the whole picture of not just what happens today, but what the picture will look like in a few years,” he stated,, stressing, “nobody should be complacent, particularly as we move towards 2007.”

He added: “It is not enough to keep saying, ‘Oh! He keeps saying that because he is Yoruba, he is saying that because he is Igbo, or because he is Borno. No! truth is truth. If we live together as an entity, we must cultivate an egalitarian society and understand all the entities because without an understanding of the different parts of the nation, we are a mere geographical _expression, a tinderbox awaiting explosion.

Soyinka, at the event which had in attendance the Cross [River] State Governor, Mr. Donald Duke, Ministers Nasir el’ Rufai and Oby Ezekwesili, Professor Sola Adeyeye of the House of Representatives, lamented what he said was the prevalence of contempt for the rule of law in Nigeria.

He remarked: “When we talk about law, nobody is and should be above the law. Law is an agreement. Nobody should be deprived of his right. Some people have been detained over the years without their lawyers knowing where they are kept. It is an abuse of the law. I am talking of Gani Adams, (Ralph) Uwazurike, the (Asari) Dokubos. They are detained for so long and brought out occasionally for hearing and hearing you know, the charges against them do not qualify for incarceration.

RichyBlacK:

@Ono, equating "an ordinary misunderstanding" to a pogrom is just plain ridiculous .

naijaking1:

Is that "programmed" or "pogrom" Two vastly different concepts.

Of course they're different concepts, why the question?

Pogrom :- a form of riot directed against a particular group, whether ethnic, religious or other, and characterized by destruction of their homes, businesses and religious centers.

@Prizm and Naijaking:
I'm ready to discuss this topic with the maturity level that it requires if everyone here (somehow, 95% of the contributors are of Igbo descent) are willing to do just that.

Right from the start, these people have been calling me names and other shit. And not until someone went overboard with acidic posts directed at me, did I reply in a distasteful manner. If we want to dicuss reasonably, I'm ready for that, otherwise, I will continue to hit back.

By the way, we need to go back to the first post -  the originator of the thread (BUSHFELLOW). He said and I quote:

To me i am still searching for what to call Ojukwu but i believe Igbos marginalization today is caused by their greedy Ohaneze and leaders of thought from that region just like the Niger Delta problem lies on their leaders past and present. the war ojukwu called for was for his personal interest and not that of the igbo region.

Now, after reading Omatseye's write up, many Igbos came here to say that the guy does not know what he's talking about, he's a fool, and all that thrash. When they came up with their reasons for the war, they kept leaving out other vital information and justifying their leaders' (Ojukwu and company) actions alone. They claimed it's a war for the self determination of the Igbos. Some (other Igbos) said it was Ojukwu's war. I wonder which one I should believe now.

And if this thread is about learning some lessons from the mistakes of leaders in the past, then I believe we in the delta have learnt a lot.

And if this thread is about learning some lessons from the mistakes of leaders in the past, then I believe we in the delta have learnt a lot.

From the constant attacks on igbo people by the Niger-dleta people i beg to disagree that you people have learnt anything. I yet to encounter a group of very myopic, contant igbo-bashing people as the niger-delta people. You people have simply romanticised igbo hatred.

Lessons learned from the war are many; individually and collectively.

Individually, people learnt that investing heavily in landed/non-transferable properties outside your own town carrries some risk. There were lots of lessons on fidelity, patience, and honesty.

Collectively, many Igbos remain very suspicious of Ojukwu's role. Remember Jim Nwobodo vs. Ojukwu clash in the 70s when the latter returned from exile? It kicked my inquisitive mind into motion, and what I saw and learnt about Ojukwu and Jim made me mad and disappointed.

Politically, the Calabar area did not support Okpara's political party, and after the election, there were reports that newly laid pipe borne water lines were torn out as punishment for their anti-vote---- I don't know how true.

Some of these reports probably laid the foundation for the lack of trust between the majority Igbos and their Ijaw/Efik cousins especially during the civil war.

The war was not adequately sold to the Eastern Nigerian minorities(I suppose), but after Effiong and other people joined the Biafran army, I think that other intra-Eastern Nigerian disputes should have waited until after the war. Unfortunately, or fortunately, the federal interest was to flame the dispute already brewing among groups within the region, just like the creation of West Virginia out of Virginia during the American civil war.

The truth remains that anybody that comes to kill off the Igbos probably does not have any good plans for their riverine cousins too.

Conversly, I also believe that any political, economic, and environmental diseasters affecting the Niger-delta people of Eastern Nigeria also affects their in-land and riverine Igbo cousins.

To a large extent, the basic principles of self determination started in the 1960s, but was poorly excuted as Biafra,  continues today, via Ken Saro Wiwa, MEND, etc.

naijaking1:

To a large extent, the basic principles of self determination started in the 1960s, but was poorly excuted as Biafra,  continues today, via Ken Saro Wiwa, MEND, etc.

True talk. That's what I've been telling them ever since. We have learnt a lot from their mistakes. We will do our own self determination in a much better way. For instance,

1. We in the delta have already gone on an enlightenment campaign to take the issue of resource control to the grass roots. This is against the selfish inclination of Ojukwu in the case of Biafra. He wanted the loot all to himself and some of his Igbo leaders clique.

2. We will get the support of international friendly nations, who can share in our grief in the delta and sympathise with us. And we will not go after countries like France. We will look for more powerful and friendly ones, that we can understand their language. Not the one that only one person can communicate with.

3. There are other things I cannot divulge in a public forum like this. But, sure enough, they are better than the Igbos tactics during the 60s.

Ono

Goodluck we wish you luck, but remember the thing wey you dey call falure by your forefathers them think sai na monumental success.
I hope say your success plan go stand the test of time.

@Ono

Historians don't necessarily use the word "mistake" instead they call it a learning experience.

Like I said, the struggle of the 1960s was not just an Igbo affair, but later became one.

I'm glad some people are able to look back in Niger-delta today, lessons learned are lessons earned. Just like in the case of Virginia, people like MT Mbu has found out that they have more in common with their estranged regional cousins than they care to admit.

If you succeed in your present agitation, you would have the failed concept of Biafra to thank for it, because it tells you what's right and what's not.

If you fail, yet a future generation will look back on your struggle, Biafra, and others for lessons. The principles of equity is universal, 'what's fair is fair'. We just have to find the best we to express and enforce the principle.

A lot of people have looked back, and blamed the Biafran failure on leadership, I'm inclined to agree.

I'm not a historian. Pardon my wrong use of words. Correction taken. We all learn everyday.

But I'm surprised that with the level of exposure and intellect of the Igbos at the time that they did not look back at history, the way we in the Delta are doing now, to study what transpired in the case of Virginia and West Virginia. How could their leaders have been so blinded by greed? Na wa o. So much for enlightenment.

And when you think of the fact that many people of Igbo extraction followed this Ojukwu man, you'll begin to question their intent for going to war. It's just not good enough to put the blame squarely on the leaders at the time. Leaders have followers - no matter how few the leader may be. And a vast majority (if not all of them) of the Igbos voiced their support for Ojukwu's agitation. They couldn't have put up such resistance to the government of the day if there wasn't some form of guarantee.

@Ono

You bring up the issue of leadership selection in Africa, you know it is and was never really based on merit.

I refer you to the emergence of Ojukwu as the Biafran leader. Jim Nwobodo did a good exposition on the topic in the 1970s.

Also, I disagree that greed was the main reason why educated Igbos failed to learn from other parts of World history (assuming they had an opportunity to voice their view at that time).

The problem, I think is not very different from what's happening in Rwanda, Congo, and even among you guys in the delta today.

The best person doesn't always make it to leadership. The system is not always intadem with itself.

This why great minds focus on principles, and not persons.

The struggle of the MEND is plausible for example, but you would agree that they too have their own in-house detractors.

Ojukwu was not the principle of Biafra, greed was not either, and today, kidnapping small children is not the principle of MEND either.

MEND's struggle is ineffective and is nothing other than greed, infact Donzman thinks it's a joke. MEND, Dokubo and every other freedom fighter in the ND have no real powers, they're tolerated because they cannot cause any damage whatsoever.

They told us releasing Dokubo will lead to a decrease in the kidnappings but from what I see, the only decrease in the age of those kidnapped, they didn't tell us this was what they meant by a "decrease" i.e. moving from kidnapping grown adults to kidnapping kids.

Dokubo and other ND freedom fighters are and will always be powerless figures who are neither intellectually, physically nor politically capable of executing any struggle for self determination. Donzman will sit by the wayside and watch the whole thing unfold, at the end of the day we know the powers that be in Nigeria will continue to milk whatever resource dry.

To come here and tell us that the ND struggle has been more effective than Biafra is nothing but plain dishonesty and delusion which Ono is known for anyway.

Do you think that all of the kidnappings, thrash and bunch of never-do-well roaming the creeks of our lands formenting trouble have the proper blessings of our true leaders? Let me tell you guys something you don't know. Those folks are acting the brief of some selected selfish lots amongst us. Why do you think they don't garner much popularity amongst our people at the grassroots level? Do you think at this time that the people of the Niger Delta will go to war because of these people? Who, out of us in the Delta will arm himself now and say he's fighting on the behalf of criminals? See, they don't have our blessings.

I have already told you some of our strategy up there. You will be surprised that not one of the real leaders doing the real work of preaching self determination to our people will shoot a pistol or arrow until our desire is met. Just watch out.

Unlike Ojukwu and his people, who thought it's through carrying arms against a sitting government and gyrating and brandishing some weapons given to him by the French, with which he was able to convince the generality of the Igbos that time, thereby influencing their decision to go to war. He also deceived them into thinking they were fighting for dignity, self respect, pride, retaliation etc etc - just like some suicide bombers tell their disciples that they will be rewarded with seven virgins each in heaven. LOL!!

This time, the true leaders of the Delta will not go out there in a deadly battle field. Our battle field will be in the board rooms of well meaning individuals and nations all over the world. And, I tell you, we will win. Just watch out.

Do you think that all of the kidnappings, thrash and bunch of never-do-well roaming the creeks of our lands formenting trouble have the proper blessings of our true leaders? Let me tell you guys something you don't know. Those folks are acting the brief of some selected selfish lots amongst us. Why do you think they don't garner much popularity amongst our people at the grassroots level? Do you think at this time that the people of the Niger Delta will go to war because of these people? Who, out of us in the Delta will arm himself now and say he's fighting on the behalf of criminals? See, they don't have our blessings.

Tell Ono, if the niger-delta peope donot having the blessing sof Asari Dkubo and MEND, how come you people are not protesting on the streets of Port harcourt and Yenogoa against them? Ans how come there sre so many youths joining them to wage war agaist the state? I think there is a cospiracy between the people and the Asari etc. In fact i suspecting that you people are willing collaborators.

I have already told you some of our strategy up there. You will be surprised that not one of the real leaders doing the real work of preaching self determination to our people will shoot a pistol or arrow until our desire is met. Just watch out.

Well my brother you cannot get freedom without spilling some blood. World over there had been mass uprising for there to be change. good examples are the french revolution, american war of independence and others. See if you are waiting for the day that real revenue will be given to you people on a platter of gold then you better wait for ever.

Mind you the current kidnappings seems to be having some effect even though it had being condemned as violent and babaric.

Unlike Ojukwu and his people, who thought it's through carrying arms against a sitting government and gyrating and brandishing some weapons given to him by the French, with which he was able to convince the generality of the Igbos that time, thereby influencing their decision to go to war. He also deceived them into thinking they were fighting for dignity, self respect, pride, retaliation etc etc - just like some suicide bombers tell their disciples that they will be rewarded with seven virgins each in heaven. LOL!!

Like i said before you seems to have some grudges against Ndigbo and Ojukwu. I know how it feels, afterall the people that your fathers thought had been destroyed forever are very much alive and kicking. Sorry Igbo people will continue to very much relevant in the affairs to come. We will contonue to prosper.

Weas a nationa has multiplied and filled the country, making us one the largest ethnic group in Africa. Everywhere you trun you must see an igboman. Again, just accept it .

This time, the true leaders of the Delta will not go out there in a deadly battle field. Our battle field will be in the board rooms of well meaning individuals and nations all over the world. And, I tell you, we will win. Just watch out

Good. Becuase we do not want Asari Dokubo (supported by the youths of the niger-delta region) who have not hidden his admiration for Osama Bin Laden.

Planner:

Good. Becuase we do not want Asari Dokubo (supported by the youths of the niger-delta region) who have not hidden his admiration for Osama Bin Laden.

That's the only statement that I could hold on to from your last post. But I remember I once told you lad to go and sleep when the elders are talking. Oya, go now before I come and chase you to bed.

@Ono

Your post did not prove anything, how exactly is the current Ijaw struggle ( I'm not going to say ND struggle anymore because there are other groups that are not interested in the constant kidnappings going on) better than the Biafra struggle?. . .You haven't lost much in terms of human life because you are not ready to and will never achieve anything. It's like an employee laughing at his businessman boss that the boss is in 200 million naira debt and he they employee is debt free. What you fail to understand is that to be the boss, you have to make big sacrifices. The Ijaws in the ND are not able to make any sacrifices and at such will not achieve anything.

Who exactly are these ND leaders you speak of?. . .Which of them have a national voice?. . .None. I already adviced Dokubo to shave that useless beard of his, he's no FIGHTER!

You want make I tell you now so that you go go tell Ojukwu and company to go and pollute their minds? Anyways, just to let you in on one that's popular. Ken Saro Wiwa style did not pay much at the time because we were under military regime. We will still largely adopt his tactics, especially now that we are in a democratic settings. That's why you see, education is the key. Our people need to be enlightened to move ahead.

And that's why I'm amazed at you guys because a lot of you in the 60s were well educated. So, I'm still wondering how Ojukwu managed to pull a fast one on you guys and you fell very hard for it.

That's the bit I can let you in on at this time. Takia.

You keep beating around the bush, how exactly has the Ijaw struggle been effective?

Donzman:

You keep beating around the bush, how exactly has the Ijaw struggle been effective?

Is it by dancing kokoma and owigiri?

shell and others are threatening to pull out of PH.
since these whiners won't allow them to drink water and keep cup.
O no ( Ono)  it's time to say O yes and leave the Igbo man alone.

He is not your problem.
Tell your lazy brethren to wake up,get out there and get their hands dirty.
It's called working.
Don't wait for handouts from the government!!

It's time to fold those umbrellas,get out of the plain george wrappers and don on some khaki.
Stop complaining and pointing fingers at everyone but yourselves.
Igbo man did this,Igbo man did that.
Can you say any sentences without the Igbo man on your lips?
If God gave you fish,make some peppersoup and call it a day!

With your whiny whiny complainy attitude,awusa people don better pass una.
at least they make suya,what is Naija delta popular for?
except planting us on the pages of New York times with your warriors on speed boats
abeg make we hear something
should we bow down and worship you people
pleaseeeee

That was harsh but this Ono deserves it, he thinks oil is everything. Everybody wants your oil, even people who were dying by the thousands everyday up North wanted it for whatever reason, it's a replacement for blood or what.

shell and others are threatening to pull out of PH.
since these whiners won't allow them to drink water and keep cup.
O no ( Ono) it's time to say O yes and leave the Igbo man alone.

He is not your problem.
Tell your lazy brethren to wake up,get out there and get their hands dirty.
It's called working.
Don't wait for handouts from the government!!

It's time to fold those umbrellas,get out of the plain george wrappers and don on some khaki.
Stop complaining and pointing fingers at everyone but yourselves.
Igbo man did this,Igbo man did that.
Can you say any sentences without the Igbo man on your lips?
If God gave you fish,make some peppersoup and call it a day!

With your whiny whiny complainy attitude,awusa people don better pass una.
at least they make suya,what is Naija delta popular for?
except planting us on the pages of New York times with your warriors on speed boats
abeg make we hear something
should we bow down and worship you people
pleaseeeee

Whew! That was brilliant. OYes sorry Ono take note.

Some posts don't need to be dignified with a reply.

Some of us honestly need to go and research who make up the today Niger-Delta.

There are 9 States in Niger-Delta Development Commision (NDDC), Imo, Abia, Rivers, Delta, Cross River, Akwa Ibom, Edo, Bayelsa and Ondo.

The first 2 are total Igbo States, in the next 4 there are apreciable amount of Igbos. That is 6/9 and someone will come here asking why the then Map of Biafra reflected parts of Niger-Delta.

Ono better don't start what you can't finish. You are the only person I have had confrontations with in Nairaland and I will not hessitate to do it again. Better don't start what you can't finish.

please dont twist the facts as you try to make your point. i understand the biafra cause but to now add akwa ibom and cross river to ibo land but claiming it has appreciable amount of igbos (which part of nigeria doesnt have appreciable amont of just about any ehtnic group) isnt proper.

Obong

I will not go into any kind of argument with you because the Igbos did not and have never known truer friends and allies than the Efiks and Ibibios.

So to your "civilised" niger-delta behaviour the murder of close to 100,00 igbos in the north is an "ordinary misunderstanding? I have being trying not to see you a stupid person. I have been trying believe me.

So Ono, tell me what has the niger-delta gained by supporting the nigerian troops during the war? Mind you so many of the niger-delta people was also killed during the war and yet you people felt nothing for your brethen.

i find it funny how igbos are only from the niger delta when oil and land is mentioned. when the valors and heros of the war are mentioned, the niger delta suddenly becomes "other"