Islamrules & Harakiri,

My dear brothers and distinguished gentlemen, I am certain you're both better than the last few posts. Please curb the insults and give each other a hug . . . okay forget the hug, I'll settle for a civil discourse.

Or else I will be forced to use some buttons that have the words "lock" "delete" "request ban" on them

@Islamrules, Even your fellow religious folks are embarassed by your dumb postings. Your stoopidity is strong enough to distort internet access and crash internet servers 200meters around you. Catholics,Anglicans,Vincentians etc All share the same background. Can you compare the Buddhist idea of god with that of Islam? Can you compare the Taoist idea of god with Christianity? Eledumare worship is what christians term as "idol worship". It's totally different from the biblical concept of god. Are you such a dense dumba$$ that you can comprehend something as simple as this? Are you this reetarded? You think using derogatory terms on me will earn you points? Dude, I will bit$h slap you back into your mother's womb! Dumba$$ reetarded dummy!

I dont need to use any word against you. I have understand you now.

It is a pity.

There is no point in arguing with you. Your case is pathetic and grave.

May God or athos (whichever you believe) have mercy on your soul.

What is the point in teaching a Cat how to swim? Cats dont leave in the river.

What is the point in teaching a monkey how to eat butter,, you can complete the sentence.

I am blaming myself for arguing with you. I am really sorry for arguing with you.

My bad. You have made it clear that you are an atheist. Why am I arguing with you about God ?

Ofcourse you dont know him or want him. What is the point trying to,

Good bye mr. wakooo, have a nice day with your nothingness

@jesoul, my apologies. I didn't come here to banter insults with anyone but a lot of this folks can't resist hurling insults randomly and there's a limit to which one can endure or maintain "civility". Read through his responses. None is devoid of unwarranted curses and insults and I had to give him a befitting response.

Hmmm. Curses? That says all about an atheist

Evolution, it's funny to me, Why are we still man, why have we not changed into something else? At least, there should be a green light that we are changing to sth else soon. I don't judge people based on their religion or belief or background, I prefer personal relationship with me to all dat. I've asked myself questions, Does God really exist? Is Xtainity the way for me? etc through many research&my readings. Though I came across so many doubts but the Word "FAITH"&logical view of d bible choose for me.

@dirtygamer, Not all Atheists believe in the theory of evolution. Furthermore, a lot of Christians are evolutionists. Atheism is simply the disbelief in religion or it's beliefs. The theories of evolution is another thing entirely. Talking more on evolution, I am not an advocate of it but it definitely makes more sense that the biblical story that depicts mankind being created from sand (of all things).

Islamrules
you are correct. there's no difference. except the yoruba God would be refered to as animistic by the west. you know your history. this is why cele goers refer to Lucifer as asatani instead of esu. they realize esu was demonized by the missionaries. and esu does not equal devil.
to the Atheist guy
think of evolution this way. if two nigerians marry they will have a baby that looks like them. if a nigerian marries a white person they will have a mixed race child. now imagine the child marries another white person. they will have a baby that looks almost white with hardly any african traits. now imagine all nigerians married white people and for the next three generations the mixed children marry white people. you will have a nigerian nation of white (looking) people with no african traits. thus is the basis of evolution. (well my simplistic explanation anyways)
I'm glad i see nigerians thinking and not just accepting the status quo.
No black people are not more closed minded. Religious people are closed minded. you'll find them in every nation. it has nothing to do with race.

Guy if a xtain preach to you when you declare your artheistic nature he is in LOVE with you. If you tell me your nature I will only tell you once that God do exist and if you refuse to listen I will change the topic and let you wallow in your ignorance. I want you to know that those that insist on changing you are the people that love you so much and are willing to let you see reason I WILL NOT.

Oc2fish.
that's your problem. i really don't care what you think about my beliefs. I don't need anyone else to validate me. keep praying and keep believing. see how great it's working out for Africans? Religion is the anathema of critical thinking a wise man once said. There's no action. you keep praying and refuse to take responsibility for your own actions. I don't blame anyone who believes in religion though. When you live in a very unstable environment you need some hope i suppose. If you are Christian simply because you inherited it from your parents then you are in deep trouble.

ATLgal:

Oc2fish.
that's your problem. i really don't care what you think about my beliefs. I don't need anyone else to validate me. keep praying and keep believing. see how great it's working out for Africans? Religion is the anathema of critical thinking a wise man once said. There's no action. you keep praying and refuse to take responsibility for your own actions.  I don't blame anyone who believes in religion though. When you live in a very unstable environment you need some hope i suppose.  If you are Christian simply because you inherited it from your parents then you are in deep trouble. 

Another atheist with some madness to dish out 

@Frosbel, As a "distinguished" madman yourself, can you explain the "madness" you saw in ATLgal's post? Dude, go take your meds.

harakiri:

@Frosbel, As a "distinguished" madman yourself, can you explain the "madness" you saw in ATLgal's post? Dude, go take your meds.

From you Sir , this is a compliment

To be sincere, God is more confused than humans!

One of the reasons you have pointed out - when religious people make attributions to God they actually refer to themselves. That's why you can have Joshua directed by God (and the people of Israel) to commit pogroms (crimes against humanity in our current dispensation) against their rivals. That's why religious people hope you turn out to be a failure so they can point at you and say "Aha. . .his life is messed up because he's not a Christian/Moslem"; they take it personal. While forgetting that your life is probably STILL better than the lives of most of their fellow Christians/Moslems.

One of the obvious other reasons is they see it as a war between good and evil. They are good (of God) and anybody else not of their religion is evil. That's why every non-Moslem is a Kaffir and every non-Christian is going to Hell.

I just need to add a commentary on my choice - Agnosticism. It is entirely based on my conviction after years of thought. I am what I am not because I read anybody's articles or because I try to emulate anybody. I am merely using my brain. I just saw a name on this thread - Antony Flew. I never heard of him before. The only well known Atheist I knew was Richard Dawkins and that was because of my subscription to Discover magazine; he was featured in an article 3 years ago. Basically, I am saying my persuasion was not as the result of any "evangelist". And in any case, I am not Atheist.

What religious people don't seem to realize is that allowing for the existence of God does not imply a religious belief. Anybody who thinks there is God, but that God does not fit with any religious belief is an Agnostic (there are various types of Agnostics) - someone like Einstein. And that was exactly what Antony Flew converted to - from Atheist to Agnostic Deist. So please, stop using Flew as the poster "child" of an "Atheist repentance and conversion".

@dirtygamer
evolution,  is why we scientists are known to be patient.
Patient enough to study things that will take a lot more time than we can imagine and understand how things happen.
Creation is instant, 7 days,  right? People reached Australia in an instant. And "adapted" an instant too?
Different races difference planets, different belief systems, in an instant?
Evolution is a far credible explanation to instant creation.
That's why,  harakiri told you,  about about ID. Have you heard of Intelligent Design?
Extinction of species also determines what animals/plants we have now *e,g dodos, tasmanian devils,  we have seen these disappear,  how does instantaneous creation explanation this?

@logica, That was a well scripted post. It was dead on. The part I really don't get is when religious folks frantically try to label non religious people as "bad and evil" people. Weeks ago, I read a Q&A on yahoo where a woman was complaining about her new neighbour who sleeps regularly with "ladies of the night" and she blamed everything on his being Atheist. I was dumbfounded. I began to wonder if he's the only person she knows that does such or if the ladies were Atheists. How about the catholic reverends that desecrate the a$$es of little boys? How about the numerous scandals of pastors having affairs with members of the church (some even impregnate other people's wives). Are they Atheists too?

There are times when my world came crashing down and everyone (including my blood brother and sisters) blamed my predicament on my disbelief in a god and I began to wonder why there are still struggling people inspite of their religiousness. Like they say "People fear what they don't understand and hate what they can't conquer".

@Enigma and Frosbel, another poster who happens to be agnostic has given a similar definition of what agnostism is (like I did yesterday). What is your take on that? Are you gonna redefine it now? Huh?

Agnosticism is the way to go IMO, it makes no assumptions and demands proof or well thought out reasons of any opinion you hold as to the existence or relevance of god as an entity. Personally, to me everyone who is not agnostic is a liar or simply not facing up to the truth that god is a mostly human created construct to fill the vacumms of human knowledge.

It is this simple reason that has led to the continuous refinement of god himself, the so called holy books, the creation story, evolution of morality and other attendant religious constructs which are not bad in themselves but are mostly built on lies and unproven myths nevertheless and more importantly, the purposes of morality and societal order which they serve are not  really exclusive to religion as most religious folks assume.

I personally do not agree with the Atheistic assertion that god does not exist either because that assertion demands proof which is virtually impossible to come by but I can stand those ones because all they are doing is basically demanding proof for assertions by the de-facto religious world view claiming the existence of god but potentially erring in claiming that the absence of such proofs automatically excludes the possibility of god's existence.

The reason why I now personally detest religion is this, it claims to 'know' and the leadership of its various factions claim an authority which is built on lies and largely unproven myths which therefore engenders more strife as they struggle for followership and relevance but more importantly leaves people susceptible to brainwashing and exploitation regardless of education or knowledge. A very good example is my brother who is a consultant doctor and a practicing christian, an intellectual in every sense of the word much smarter than I am in every other way yet falls flat on his face by neglecting his own better judgement in the face of a religion that somehow convinces him that some questions are better left unanswered when in his day to day job he will demand answers to any such questions and will not accept an unproven default position.

At the end of the day, I believe that individually, those who practice religion every day are either making making up their own personal god, pruning and grafting as their day to day existence shapes their world view in light of whatever religious philosophies they expose themselves to in books, sermons and some personal thought (these I term the safe and moderate ones) or leaving the pruning and grafting to others and swallowing whatever they are told in their various places of assembly (these I term the dangerous and potentially fanatical ones). However, it is very easy to cross over from one to the other depending on personal circumstances and I dare not forget those who actually have elements of agnosticsm in their thinking but can't just bring themselves to throw off the shackles of religion they've carried for so long even if their own logical thought leads them to the obvious conclusion (yeah, like freed slaves who couldn't bring themselves to call their previous overlords by name but still referred to them as master despite being freed) like my afore mentioned brother.

Yes, there are mysteries in this world and some will be ultimately fathomed and understood while some will remain mysteries possibly for ever but there is no claim of healing that I know that has ever stood up to real scrutiny. A religious friend of mine puts it this way that he has never seen a miracle in church and neither has he seen 'Juju' at work but almost every single one of us has heard of such myths.
Until I personally evidence one and every shade of smokes and mirrors or sleight of hand (magic tricks) is eliminated or more importantly 'God' chooses to make a broadcast to every citizen of this world telling us at the very same time who he is and what he wants of us, I will forever remain Agnostic while acknowledging the right of the religious folk to create their personal gods as they see fit and proper provided they don't stuff such personal gods down the throat of others in the name of religious movements and religious laws that everyone must live and be judged by.

harakiri:

@logica, That was a well scripted post. It was dead on. The part I really don't get is when religious folks frantically try to label non religious people as "bad and evil" people. Weeks ago, I read a Q&A on yahoo where a woman was complaining about her new neighbour who sleeps regularly with "ladies of the night" and she blamed everything on his being Atheist. I was dumbfounded. I began to wonder if he's the only person she knows that does such or if the ladies were Atheists. How about the catholic reverends that desecrate the a$$es of little boys? How about the numerous scandals of pastors having affairs with members of the church (some even impregnate other people's wives). Are they Atheists too?

There are times when my world came crashing down and everyone (including my blood brother and sisters) blamed my predicament on my disbelief in a god and I began to wonder why there are still struggling people inspite of their religiousness. Like they say "People fear what they don't understand and hate what they can't conquer".

@Enigma and Frosbel, another poster who happens to be agnostic has given a similar definition of what agnostism is (like I did yesterday). What is your take on that? Are you gonna redefine it now? Huh?

Atheism is clearly the ploy of the devil, but one thing should be clear to you, from an Islamic perspective, Misfortune can befall even the best of Humans, As Allah has revealed, this world is a test, misfortunes some times are meant for us to take stock of where we are getting it wrong, other times they are meant to test whether our faith is genuine so people blaming your predicament on your atheism, can only be said to be short sighted, your refusal to accept God does not diminish his majesty nor does it subtract anything from HIM. In Islam we believe that God showers his mercy on all, for it takes the mercy of Allah to be alive.

@Allah,What proof can you put on the table to defend the credility of Islam? What do you know about "Allah" and his "prophet" Mohammed other than wha you've been taught?

vedaxcool:

Atheism is clearly the ploy of the devil, but one thing should be clear to you, from an Islamic perspective, Misfortune can befall even the best of Humans, As Allah has revealed, this world is a test, misfortunes some times are meant for us to take stock of where we are getting it wrong, other times they are meant to test whether our faith is genuine so people blaming your predicament on your atheism, can only be said to be short sighted, your refusal to accept God does not diminish his majesty nor does it subtract anything from HIM. In Islam we believe that God showers his mercy on all, for it takes the mercy of Allah to be alive.

It's human not the devil! What's the devil? Another myth-believing fellow! What are you insinuating with that one? Jeez! Some theists are as stupid as stupidity itself(hahaha, stupidity itself because I got nothing else to explain that).

@vedaxcool you have to believe in God to believe in the Devil. They are in the inseparable twins. God cant exist without the devil, it means no sin, no freewill, no nothing.

all4naija:

It's human not the devil! What's the devil? Another myth-believing fellow! What are you insinuating with that one? Jeez! Some theists are as silly as stupidity itself(hahaha, stupidity itself because I got nothing else to explain that).

Okay , another deluded fellow who thinks his ancestors came from Mars

@frosbel mars? please expound. It seems you are the one who is making this extra ordinary claim.

@zataks,His wild claims are always backed by "reliable sources" ooo! Be kiafu of him, hehehehahaha,lol

harakiri:

@Allah,What proof can you put on the table to defend the credility of Islam? What do you know about "Allah" and his "prophet" Mohammed other than wha you've been taught?

I am sorry to say that your questions are incoherent, the part about being taught everything I know about Allah is your own myth, as a Muslim it is my responsibility to enlighten myself on on Allah and his messenger, none of what you wrote actually addresses my response.

all4naija:

It's human not the devil! What's the devil? Another myth-believing fellow! What are you insinuating with that one? Jeez! Some theists are as silly as stupidity itself(hahaha, stupidity itself because I got nothing else to explain that).

Have you notice that being an atheist has not made you anywhere near being civil or even rational in your outlook? atheism is the ploy of the devil in undermining man, God gains nothing whether you belief or not in his well acknowledged existence. It remains strange with all your rational non  myth belieing sense you stil live in a world of assumptions, no <mazaje best arguement>, #
Your take as fact that Osama is dead yet you never saw his dead body

you take as fact that the trade towers were fallen by Osama yet he never confirmed such

you take as fact that Jupiter somewhere some how exist in the Galaxy yet you have never seen it

you take as fact that Virus exist but have probably never confirmed such

now between me and you who seem stupid, me that accepts the supreme fact that a bridge, talk les of the entire universe, could never have assembled itself or you who prefers accepting every S*H*I*T thrown at him? you have to be honest to yourself that you are hypocritical when it comes to using your criteria for living.

zataxs:

@vedaxcool you have to believe in God to believe in the Devil. They are in the inseparable twins. God cant exist without the devil, it means no sin,  no freewill,  no nothing.

You seem more confused than the thread you started, you wrote I have to believe in God to believe in the devil, yet again wrote without the devil God cannot exist, I think you just abused rationality and all parameters of Logical reasoning, you simply do not have an iota of understanding of Islamic conception of things, which again points to the fact that most you atheist on NL are deeply ignorant of what they reject, deeply unassuming when it comes to researching. Your point seems not to be clear on what exactly you are getting at. Try being more coherent.

vedaxcool:


Have you notice that being an atheist has not made you anywhere near being civil or even rational in your outlook? atheism is the ploy of the devil in undermining man, God gains nothing whether you belief or not in his well acknowledged existence. It remains strange with all your rational non  myth belieing sense you stil live in a world of assumptions, no <mazaje best arguement>, #
Your take as fact that Osama is dead yet you never saw his dead body

you take as fact that the trade towers were fallen by Osama yet he never confirmed such

you take as fact that Jupiter somewhere some how exist in the Galaxy yet you have never seen it

you take as fact that Virus exist but have probably never confirmed such

now between me and you who seem silly, me that accepts the supreme fact that a bridge, talk les of the entire universe, could never have assembled itself or you who prefers accepting every S*H*I*T thrown at him? you have to be honest to yourself that you are hypocritical when it comes to using your criteria for living.

Don't think I will apologize for that! You said Atheism is the ploy of the devil, which I kindly let you know it is not and ask you the reasons why you think it is. Yet, your response ends up with stating of refutations in list form, which actually confirmed that you are not in line with what you pointed to in your previous comment prior to Atheism being a ploy of the devil.

Sorry to say this that your argument holds no water and, it is incomprehensible to the average minds. Before we start latching out on each other's comments we shouldn't forget that civility is not the important thing in this argument but Atheism and the devil. I would like to know what even coerced you to use that word devil associating it with Atheism in the first case?If I must addressed this issue from a neutral ground, I would like my questions to be left unanswered. You know what, I am not going to do that,you know what I am going to do? Take time to exercise your faith, answer my questions and tell God to explain why he's so confused about what He created. Many things He created are so imperfect and disturbing that it left you wondering if God ever existed beyond human myth and legendary. Hahaha, 

However, I am not disrespecting you in any way at all but your faith seems to lack impractical facts - which I am trying to point to in your previous comment. They are many many evidences of myth and legendary. It only pays to reason them out with comprehensive mind, analysis and providing evidences not just making statements based on what you think.

Thank you!

@Vedaxcool, My questions were simple,short,directnstraight forward and written in basic simple English? Where is this "incoherence" you're talking about? Once again :

What proof can you show that Allah is the true god and creator? Have you seen Allah before? Have you spoken to Mohammed? What evidence can you provide that authenticates the Quran as a divine book inspired by the god Allah? If the Toureg and Berber slave raiders hadn't conquered your forefathers, do you think you would be a moslem today? What else do you know about Islam other than what you've been indoctrinated with from childhood?

These are straight forward questions. If you don't have the answers, have the decency to admit but going round in circles cheapens your position. I am asking you this because you assumed a position that Islam is more open and straight forward than christianity. If you have any proof to back up your claim (other than sentiments) bring it forward. If you don't,then have the courtesy to admit or hold your peace.

vedaxcool:

Atheism is clearly the ploy of the devil,

When did the mythical devil appear to you and told you that atheism is his ploy?. . . .

but one thing should be clear to you, from an Islamic perspective, Misfortune can befall even the best of Humans, As Allah has revealed, this world is a test, misfortunes some times are meant for us to take stock of where we are getting it wrong, other times they are meant to test whether our faith is genuine so people blaming your predicament on your atheism, can only be said to be short sighted,

How did you know that Allah reveled anything? What is so special about the Koran? There is nothing written in the Koran that could not have been written by men that lived during the period it was written. . . .Beside the lies written by the authors of the Koran that the book is the final relevation of their God what evidence do you have to show that the Koran is the words of the creator of the universe? Your evidence to show that the universe has only one creator is WHAT?. . .Many hindus(about a billion of them) believe that the universe has many creators. . .Your evidence to show that Allah created the universe and not Vishnu and the other monkey Gods of India is WHAT?. . . . .So according to Islam when a child dies Allah might be using it to test the child's parent's or when a muslim gets invloved in an accident and loses his ability to ever walk again Allah is testing the person's faith eh?. . . .The people that are short sighted are people that believe that some 7th century imaginary God entity that was created by the ancient arabs by stealing stories from the christian and jewish bibles is testing them when misfortune befalls them. . .  

your refusal to accept God does not diminish his majesty nor does it subtract anything from HIM.

Hope you know that the word God does not have a universal meaning. . . .Belief in God has more to do with the region and family you are born into and the period you are born, if you were born some 5000 years ago in Egypt you would have been worshiping Ra, If you were born 3000 years ago in Greece you would have been worshiping Zeus. . . .If you were born in Bengol India you would have been worshiping the various Goddess of Hindu. . . .Your arabic God called Allah is just one of the many Gods that humans invent and worship. . . .Over 80 percent of the humans alive on earth today do not believe in him and believe is just one of the other false or idol Gods out there. . . .But since you have been born into the Islamic bubble of delusion and made to accpet its doctrines and mytholgy hook line and sinker you are here telling us that there is no God but Allah. . . .There is no evidence to show that your Allah God is any better than Sango God or any other God that humans worship out there. . . .All of them are human constructs that remain imaginary. . . .If every body refuses to accept the stories of Mohammed about Allah, the God called Allah will die and ceases to exist. . . .It is not that Allah exist any way. . .It is the belief in Allah that exist. . .When people stopped to believe in Gods like Ra and Zeus the Gods died, So many of our traditional African Gods stopped existing once the arabs and europeans came and systematically or forcefully stopped our ancestors from believing in them. . .Gods do not exist on their own. . .Belief in Gods is what exist. . . .

In Islam we believe that God showers his mercy on all, for it takes the mercy of Allah to be alive.

What has your beliefs got to do with reality, we are talking about reality and you are here regurgitating ancient mythology written by the ancient arabs from plagiarized sources. . .The same Koran says that Allah dislikes the unbelievers, no?

mazaje:



When did the mythical devil appear to you and told you that atheism is his ploy?. .

Ask him, he is sitting on your shoulder as we speak , 

frosbel:

Ask him, he is sitting on your shoulder as we speak , 

It doesn't matter does it? According to you hypothesis, me and vexdacool are all sons of the mythical devil, no?. . .

On a more serious note, I worry day and night for atheists. I dread to think what will be their fate if they were 'to kick the bucket' any time or today for that matter.

I have them as friends at work, and what baffles me is when we have lunch chats , I keep probing them with questions until in many cases they accept that they are actually agnostic.

Really sad !!!