okeyxyz:

MEHN!!!, this has got to b the best re-education i've had this year. such beautiful history can only evoke a sense of pride regarding one's origins, that we had some ancient value that can stand shoulder to shoulder with  the rest of the esteemed ancients. very impressive.

i just hope some chauvanistic 1d10ts will not tribalize this into "yoruba this & yoruba that, blah blah blah"
it's funny that it had to take oyibo's ,documentary to tell us about our history. oyibo is making all effort to uncover knowlege while we are doing our utmost best to distance ourselves from our history & knowlege of old, saying they are demonic ways that should be destroyed & never remembered.

thanks to the OP for posting.

That's what made me love the documentary & I feel it should be something that should be cherished with pride; at least I do. The art sculptures are just beautiful and highly advanced that it has given more respect for not only Yoruba's but for Black africans in general from non-black africans who thought black africans were backwards. As you said it is ironic that a white man had to bring it's importance to the world before Nigerians saw the seriousness of it & not to take it for granted. Although based upon the response's I am getting from this thread I see many appreciate the importance of these magnificent sculptures that were beyond European technology of that time when it came to sculptures.

alj_harem:

amazing

the yorubas first made  bronze cast 900 yrs ago and taught the Benin empire.

Was there such bronze casting in Ketu, Sabe or Popo?

Let's try and be objective here. This "bronze" casting thing was a Nigerian phenomenon, not a Yoruba phenomenon.

Except for Egharevba's decision in his later edition of his famous book to claim that somebody named "Iguegha" was from Ife, I do not think this claim would have been continuously repeated. Anyway, names like "Oghene" ("Hooguanee"/"Ogane" and "Iguegha", if interpreted in a straightforward manner in relation to Ife, seem to imply something that may be better left unsaid so as not to derail this thread.

PhysicsQED:


Was there such bronze casting in Ketu, Sabe or Popo?

Let's try and be objective here. This "bronze" casting thing was a Nigerian phenomenon, not a Yoruba phenomenon.

Except for Egharevba's decision in his later edition of his famous book to claim that somebody named "Iguegha" was from Ife, I do not think this claim would have been continuously repeated. Anyway, names like "Oghene" ("Hooguanee"/"Ogane" and "Iguegha", if interpreted in a straightforward manner in relation to Ife, seem to imply something that may be better left unsaid so as not to derail this thread.

If you watch the video, it says that Ife taught Benin.

Rgp92:

If you watch the video, it says that Ife taught Benin.

I am not concerned with the video but with the claim, which the video is not the source for.

I was just asking Alj harem to look at the statement with a bit more common sense before repeating questionable claims.

PhysicsMHD:

I am not concerned with the video but with the claim, which the video is not the source for.

I was just asking Alj harem to look at the statement with a bit more common sense before repeating questionable claims.

You don't care about the video but I got the info from the Video

The Yorubas in Ife taught the Benins act of bronze making. There is nothing questionable with that and Yes it is a Nigerian Phenomena or not, My case is that the Ifes taught the Benins. There is nothing questionable about that.

I am sure they have done some analysis and in fact benins are part of the yoruba group as far as I am concerned. I have a Bini surname kosoko and speak yoruba, what does that make me, yorubanised bini man ?

The history is clear. You do physics, you know of C13 NMR and half life age analysis, so there is no claim. it was analysised

alj_harem:

You don't care about the video but I got the info from the Video

The Yorubas in Ife taught the Benins act of bronze making. There is nothing questionable with that and Yes it is a Nigerian Phenomena or not, My case is that the Ifes taught the Benins. There is nothing questionable about that.

I am sure they have done some analysis and in fact benins are part of the yoruba group as far as I am concerned. I have a Bini surname kosoko and speak yoruba, what does that make me, yorubanised bini man ?

The history is clear. You do physics, you know of C13 NMR and half life age analysis, so there is no claim. it was analysised   

Look. The history is not clear. There was a completely different tradition about brass casting claimed in 1897, but I did not repeat it here, because that tradition is also false. Egharevba was not the be all and end all of Edo history, anyway. Besides, the two names I have read (Iguegha and the other name) are not Yoruba.

As for radiocarbon dates, you need not just claim that there was an analysis without stating what it is that you're referring to. If you can produce a radiocarbon date for an Ife bronze, let me know. I think maybe you mean a thermoluminescence (TL) analysis.

As for my comment about it being a "Nigerian phenomenon" I thought it would have been obvious what that implied (that cire perdue casting had reached southern Nigeria by the 10th century), but somehow you missed it.

i just hope some chauvanistic 1d10ts will not tribalize this into "yoruba this & yoruba that, blah blah blah"
it's funny that it had to take oyibo's ,documentary to tell us about our history. oyibo is making all effort to uncover knowlege while we are doing our utmost best to distance ourselves from our history & knowlege of old, saying they are demonic ways that should be destroyed & never remembered.

XYZ,

Great insight!!

Very interesting and educational.

Except for Egharevba's decision in his later edition of his famous book to claim that somebody named "Iguegha" was from Ife, I do not think this claim would have been continuously repeated.

Physics,

Did you actually say this?   Isnt that the case with Omo N'Oba's claim that Bini begot Ife?  His ambitious remark has been repeated and falsely constituted into a new history, one departed from the acknowledged ancestry of his forefathers from Ife.

PhysicsMHD:

Look. The history is not clear.

I agree. How do you know

actually you are very correct

Al harem

you are kanuri.

Please stop the false claims.

Or maybe you're not nigerian at all?

If you're annoyed by this my post go and open another thread to attack yorubas- nobody frigging cares.

But stop this annoying habit of yours for goodness sake.


stick to kanuri- there are very few of them here so its likely nobody will contradict you if you claim you're one.

Negro_Ntns:

Physics,

Did you actually say this?   Isnt that the case with Omo N'Oba's claim that Bini begot Ife?  His ambitious remark has been repeated and falsely constituted into a new history, one departed from the acknowledged ancestry of his forefathers from Ife.  

Let's use a little common sense.

Is Iguegha a Yoruba man to you?

The Binis did not totally screw up, mutilate and bungle the other words and names they got from Yorubas. The Binis call Shango Esango, for example and those few Bini names which are Yoruba in origin preserve an almost perfect correspondence to their Yoruba source. And there are a few other examples of how Yoruba names or words are able to retain their basic form, appearance and structure in Edo which I could give if you require more evidence. There is undeniable influence of Yoruba on Benin, but whenever we see that influence, we see that the Yoruba name and structure is more or less preserved despite going through a Bini filter. We do not see this relationship of a Yoruba to Edo transfer maintained with the name "Iguegha," which leads to doubts about such a transfer taking place.

Additionally, Oghene is a pure Edoid word found among multiple Edoid groups (not just Binis) and is not derived from a Yoruba word, contrary to certain spurious claims circulating around.

Now if they (the Edo) thought that the ruler at "Uhe" (Ife?) was the Oghene (the so called "Hooguanee", not the Ooni (which they are certainly capable of pronouncing!! - just as they are certainly capable of pronouncing several other Yoruba titles), and if they claimed that Iguegha was one of the Oghene's court artists, what exactly were they claiming? Stop and think about that and give me your interpretation. This is the only statement of mine that I really want your interpretation of and an answer from you about. You can ignore the rest of what I post if you want.

Concerning histories and what Oba Erediauwa was referring to, he explained a tradition, that is all. He did not say "Bini begot Ife" since he specifically said Ife had kings before Oduduwa as acknowledged by certain Yoruba traditions.

He also mentioned that there was some degree of conflation between the man Oduduwa and the Yoruba creator gods (in fact, in some parts of Yorubaland, Oduduwa is considered female, a clear sign of the conflation of deities with a person), leading to a certain mythical interpretation of Oduduwa and the consequent habit of making him into a demigod from heaven or the "first" of the Yoruba kings, rather than an outsider after the Yorubas already had their first kings.

He then tied the name (Oduduwa) to Benin using a Benin story about the name, which was not difficult because it is a very very "Edoid" (Bini or Esan, specifically) sounding name. For example, one of the 31 Ogisos of Benin was even named (as his royal name) Oduwa (Ohuede was followed by Oduwa who was followed by Obioye, who was followed by Arigho and so on). Oduwa is just one of multiple Edo names with a similarity to Oduduwa, of course.

The different purported etymologies for Oduduwa are not any more satisfactory than the other whether we are talking  the Yoruba one or the Benin one, but the obvious Edoid appearance of the name was no doubt a motivation for Oba Erediauwa to repeat the stories from decades earlier about Oduduwa coming from Benin.

Then of course, there is Richard Burton's 1863 claim (he visited Benin) that Benin traditions held that Benin was once "the power paramount, and the civilizer of Yoruba." What is specifically meant by this isn't all that clear, because Burton has a tendency for fancy and extravagant language, but he does seem to hint at a different type of relationship than what has been presented so strongly in other places. There is a strange contrast between this claim and the other version of events that has gained authoritativeness and acceptance.

I do not think this is merely all to create a new history although I understand why you would see it that way. The Oba is entitled to his perspective as a descendant of Oduduwa, and you don't have to agree with him, but that theory is not all as easily dismissible as some would think.

I look forward to your reply. Adios for now.

The cross-teachings of Bronze art between Ife and Bini is a different story and I am not at all too particular about that because if you look at the two styles you can see a common signature.

However, I am particular about the Ife - Bini heirarchy. In matters of black history, forgive me but I don't give too much weight to European accounts. I am disregarding Burton's comment, whatever they may be. Prior to Omo N'Oba coming out with this version of the inter-connection no other King before him ever raise any dispute. What Kings were in Ife before Oduduwa, can anyone name them? What social structure did they have in Ife prior?

Of course our Kings are also deities and hence they are polar and opposite in attributes as in male and female, malevolent and benevolent, positive and negative. . . . . It is not a contention on the gender but a misreading of the attribute of the King as a deity.

I do not know how to erase the fact that from its conception and up until early 1900s, Bini dynasties had buried its Kings in Ife and then super-impose that of a historian narration - an outgrowth of colonialism - as the binding and accurate fact of history denying Ife as the ancestral root of Bini dynasty.

physics qed

^^let me ask you a few questions.

1. what is the exact origin of the people who make up bini.

for edo in general, we have the auchi side which is igbiroid and/or nupoid.

ijaws still being contested but obviously a northern link somewhere.

but for benin- where exactly are the people from.

why do almost all of you here dodge this question unfailingly.

2. given the fact that benin was at various times a transit point for groups of people passing through there, why do you find it so hard to accept the fact that yorubas contributed greatly to the rise of benin empire. You're free to dispute this if you wish.


the facts as they stand are without yoruba there would be no benin empire.

once again, dispute that as you like.

PhysicsQED:


Let's try and be objective here. This "bronze" casting thing was a Nigerian phenomenon, not a Yoruba phenomenon.

ok, so show us how exactly benin developed the art of bronze casting, and from where.

who taught them.

surely we wont be fed some magical story about how bronze casting just suddenly sprung up in benin overnight with no outside influence from anywhere.

and oh, if I may add. . . .  it is just as erroneous on that same scale if a King of Lagos were to come up in future and deny Bini as the root of their dynasty; Lagos Kings were also buried in Bini.

^^that is another topic not meant for this thread.


its not about where anyone was buried or which stories have the most burials.

@ tpia, and Negro nations, I'll reply you guys in detail later on today. I have somewhere else to be right now.


@ tpia, no Bini is not ethnically homogeneous, but then again, few groups of people truly are. I'll reply this in detail later today.

@ [s]Negro Nations, the notion that the Kings of Benin were buried in Ife was quite literally due to the work of Percry A. Talbot, a European, in the 1920s. It is therefore interesting to read that you don't think much of the accounts of Europeans when they recorded earlier traditions. Egharevba read Talbot's work (among other sources) and he changed his earlier work to reflect that tradition. [/s]However, since you claim they were buried in Ife, can you tell me how members of the Okaeben buried the king of Benin in Ife? Or if not them, can you tell me who was responsible for this? Also can you tell me where in Ife they were buried? Please don't say Orun Oba Ado, because the dates for that site are much earlier (6th-10th century) than the dates suggested for the Obas of Benin, and nothing has been found from excavations there to link it with Benin. There are other places in Yorubaland called Ado, anyway.

And I do not think you answered the one question (your interpretation) that I requested that you answer.


EDIT: Actually, I checked my source again. Talbot is not the source of the "burial of Benin kings in Ife" claim. He's the source of the "bronze casting from Ife to Benin" claim and Egharevba read his work and altered his story about Iguegha to fit this. As for the "burial in Ife" claim, the story originates with Egharevba, after he modified his original story where Oba Eweka was buried in Usama in Benin. What prompted him to modify his story is unstated, but there is no other support for the story. My apologies for the misstatement. Anyway, the "burial in Ife" claim has yet to be supported by anything else.

tpia@:

surely we wont be fed some magical story about how bronze casting just suddenly sprung up in benin overnight with no outside influence from anywhere.

There you go!!! You're finally starting to understand my objections. Stop and think about this question as it relates to Ife and the 30 or so bronzes found there. Also, as I have posted elsewhere, the methods by which the Ife and Benin art was made are technically different. Like I said, I do have to go, but I'll be back later today.

^yes, i want to hear your theories on the origin of benin bronze casting, since the thought of ife teaching benin is so difficult for you.

@ Negro Nations, the notion that the Kings of Benin were buried in Ife was quite literally due to the work of Percry A. Talbot, a European, in the 1920s. It is therefore interesting to read that you don't think much of the accounts of Europeans when they recorded earlier traditions. Egharevba read Talbot's work (among other sources) and he changed his earlier work to reflect that tradition. However, since you claim they were buried in Ife, can you tell me how members of the Okaeben buried the king of Benin in Ife?

the place where you constantly miss it is you are looking at the ife works as only art, ignoring the fact that the art has a purpose and function.

Fvck off from this thread is you wanna fight. Take that shi.t somewere else.

[size=20pt]^^YOU ARE GETTING TOO IRRITATING.

PLEASE SHUT UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/size]

GEEZ!!!!!

What a fascinating documentary.

tpia@:

physics qed

^^let me ask you a few questions.

1. what is the exact origin of the people who make up bini.

for edo in general, we have the auchi side which is igbiroid and/or nupoid.

ijaws still being contested but obviously a northern link somewhere.

but for benin- where exactly are the people from.

why do almost all of you here dodge this question unfailingly.

2. given the fact that benin was at various times a transit point for groups of people passing through there, why do you find it so hard to accept the fact that yorubas contributed greatly to the rise of benin empire. You're free to dispute this if you wish.


the facts as they stand are without yoruba there would be no benin empire.

once again, dispute that as you like.

The name Benin is a Portuguese corruption ultimately from the Itsekhiri's "Ubinu", which came into use during the reign of Oba Ewuare the Great circa 1440. The Itsekhiri's "Ubinu" was used to describe the royal administrative centre or city or capital proper of the kingdom, Edo. 'Ubinu' was later corrupted to 'Bini' by the mixed ethnicities living together at the centre; and further corrupted to "Benin" around 1485 when the Portuguese began trade relations with Oba Ewuare. See Oba of Benin.

The Igodomigodo kingdom was renamed Edo by Oba Eweka, after which the Edos refer to themselves as Oviedo 'child of Edo'. The Edo capital was Ubinu, known as Benin City to the Portuguese who first heard about it from the coastal Itsekhiri, who pronounced it this way; from this the kingdom came to be known as the Benin Empire in the West.

tpia@:

[size=20pt]^^YOU ARE GETTING TOO IRRITATING.

PLEASE SHUT UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/size]

GEEZ!!!!!

Why are you always angry? Take it easy for once.

@PhysicsMHD

The Benin people are [b]heterogeneous [/b]they have historical links with Itsekhiri, Yoruba, IJaw and Igbo people.

So it is possible they learnt bronze making form the Yoruba s.

emmatok:

@PhysicsMHD

The Benin people are [b]heterogeneous [/b]they have historical links with Itsekhiri, Yoruba, IJaw and Igbo people.

So it is possible they learnt bronze making form the Yoruba s.

This thread is about Yoruba, we should keep it that way.

emmatok:

@PhysicsMHD

The Benin people are [b]heterogeneous [/b]they have historical links with Itsekhiri, Yoruba, IJaw and Igbo people.

So it is possible they learnt bronze making form the Yoruba s.

Before the arrival of oduduwa,a Bini man, was there any Bronze sculptures, if so, do you have some pics and noting that comes along with the pic?

tpia@:

ok, so show us how exactly benin developed the art of bronze casting, and from where.

who taught them.

surely we wont be fed some magical story about how bronze casting just suddenly sprung up in benin overnight with no outside influence from anywhere.

Did the nok practice bronze casting or something? Also, the Igbos were practicing it before ife so could it be possible that they could have learned if from the people practicing it before the yoruba? And another question, was ife the only area in yorubaland to do bronze casting at the time?