Rgp92:

I belive we Yoruba are descendent of Nok people. And were not from Egypt.

Rgp92:

Oduduwa is not from the north, just the Arab playing with us.

understood

well the Nok connection with the Yoruba's are factual but I guess the Egyptian connection maybe to far back to be confirmed, it is still a never ending debate in the Yoruba community but the Nok ancestral connection to Yoruba is fact but I never ever believe Yoruba are from Arabs( I don't know who believes that). I have heard the original Egyptians were black africans(since their ancestors are the Nubians) but lighter until they started mixing with Arabs, Greeks, and etc though

PhysicsMHD:

1. Actually, I checked my source again. Talbot is not the source of the "burial of Benin kings in Ife" claim. He's the source of the "bronze casting from Ife to Benin" claim and Egharevba read his work and altered his story about Iguegha to fit this. As for the "burial in Ife" claim, the story originates with Egharevba, after he modified his original story where Oba Eweka was buried in Usama in Benin to state that Oba Eweka was buried in Ife and every third Oba after him as well. What prompted him to modify his story is unstated, but there is no other support for the story in tradition. My sincerest apologies for the misstatement earlier. Anyway, the "burial in Ife" claim has yet to be supported by anything in Benin tradition.

2. The Oba of Benin dynasty is unlikely to have been contemporaneous with Orun Oba Ado (the dates for the Orun Oba Ado site were obtained by radiocarbon dating). I'm saying this because in order to stretch the Oba of Benin dynasty back to that time, the length of the reigns of many Obas would have to be inflated considerably.

Hi, Physics. I haven't posted on Nairaland in years because it's degenerated into the worst sort of ignorance and ethnic bigotry but your posts in the culture section are always measured, thoughtful and interesting to read (like Lakal, Anonymous6 and a few others here). I'd like to contribute some of the material I know on this topic--not random Wikipedia links, but peer-reviewed information from published books and journals--and correct some of the wrong information floating about.

You're right to point out that claims that the Obas of Benin had their heads buried in Ife haven't been substantiated by archaeological finds. The archaeological record places "Orun Oba Ado" (literally, "the Burial Site of the Monarch of Ado" in the Early Formative Period of Ife development, which is ca. 500-800 AD. That's too early for the Eweka dynasty. However, Orun Oba Ado's continuous use as a royal cemetery and storehouse for prestigious art (including some of these brass/bronze and terracotta masterpieces) should suggest to you that Ife has a long history as a political center and that oral traditions calling it a resting place for the heads of deceased monarchs should be examined closely.

We should also remember that contemporary Benin tradition's silence on the idea of the decapitation of deceased monarchs does not make it false. After all, there is no evidence for the idea that Oduduwa was an escaped prince of Benin named Ekaladerhan in Ile-Ife traditions, but you accept that as true. Furthermore, there's not one reference in the historical record to the idea that Oduduwa fled from Benin until the mid-1970s (that I'm aware of), despite many written records on the various myths of origin of the southern Nigerian dynasties. That hasn't stopped people from claiming its true. As you know, the earliest reference to the origin of the Oba of Benin dynasty recorded by Portuguese visitors in the early 1500s identifies the Oghene N'Uhe as the source of the dynasty. This is the earliest court myth we have from Benin and the tradition points to the interior as the origin of the monarchy. Whether you agree or disagree that this person was not Ooni of Ife (Ryder and Thornton have raised good points about this), it is indisputable that Uhe today is Ife, and the Oghene title is identified with the Ooni's dynasty.

You may also want to read this interesting piece on the political manipulation of myths of origin, if you haven't seen it before: http://books.google.com/books?id=ikc8eMtaoT0C&pg=PA312&lpg=PA312&dq=oghene+uhe+Benin&source=bl&ots=hp1fFFoNwf&sig=RadJ24YAwFAuG4JnOmc5PGk6iyQ&hl=en&ei=z8u5TsDcNILy2QW-q52-Bw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=oghene%20uhe%20Benin&f=false

Consider these points also:

A) The term 'Oba' for a Benin monarch originates with the Eweka dynasty, which is acknowledged to have an Ife lineage through Oranmiyan/Omonoyan. It does not exist prior to that in the neighboring Edo languages (where the monarch of Benin was referred to as Ogie/Ogiso or Ovie), whereas it is the common and generic term for political leader in Yoruba, even amongst distant groups like the Yagba and other Okun Yoruba who don't have politically-centralized societies. Why would the descendants of Ekaladerhan not continue the usage of his title if he were truly the descendant of the Ogiso dynasty?

B) Political centralization at Ife precedes any other dates we have for surrounding polities, even close ones like Ilesa/Ilare and fairly old ones like Ijebu. The earliest dates for Ife's formation as a village group date back to 500 BC, and its emergence as a center for jewelry manufacture and complex archeological finds like potsherd pavements and monoliths begin a thousand years later, by 500 AD. These dates are well before any similar ones we have for Benin (not discounting the future possibility of new archeological digs and discoveries, of course).

C) I've read your citation of Burton and his reference to Benin as the source of Yoruba culture. I'm a big fan of Richard Burton, despite his racism, so please let me have your citation. I'll also add that Hugh Clapperton, who wrote the first detailed records of travels through western Nigeria in the 1820s (about 40 years before Burton) recorded the court tradition of Oyo that the monarchs at Oyo and Benin were descendants of the Ife dynasty. Despite this, the current Alaafin of Oyo disputes the primacy of Ife too.

4. My question about Iguegha was this: If you accept that this "Iguegha" from Benin tradition was indeed an Ife court artist who came to Benin, then what does that say about the Ife court? I don't accept the modification that makes his origin Ife, but for those that do, I can't see how they reconcile his name - and the fact that Edo speakers don't mutilate and massively bungle Yoruba names - with the claim about what his ethnicity was.

I'm not sure why the name has to resonate with contemporary "Yoruba-sounding" names to make this a possibility. In any case, "Ige" is a very common Yoruba name (as in 'Bola Ige', meaning a "breech-born baby" according to Rev. Johnson's "History of the Yoruba). The same name is spelled "Igue" in Benin Republic, owing to French orthography. Hope you can see where this is leading--the transcription of one name over several hundred years (or longer?) is unlikely to be exact. That doesn't mean I believe the myth--I think it's unlikely that one artist found any of the bronze-casting industries, as I think it's unlikely that Oduduwa is just one historical personage--but you can't discount the possibility based the name not sounding like a familiar Yoruba name. There are 19th century Ife, Ijesa and Ijebu names that are now rare or obsolete that if you were to hear, would likely be as unfamiliar.

As for Akenzua it is "a kon ze uwa" (one has to appear modest (play the fool) before attaining prosperity) according to a Benin tradition recorded in the book Art, innovation, and politics in eighteenth-century Benin. I don't see the Akhenaten angle.

On this point, we agree. I don't understand the obsession with finding the "origins" of Yoruba, Edo etc. cultures in Egypt. Common sense dictates that Egyptians could not have flown over modern Libya, Chad and Niger to plant their culture only in southern Nigeria, ignoring modern Ghana, Togo, Cameroon, Congo etc. It's highly unlikely and doesn't hold up to scholarly scrutiny. The impressive cultural achievements of Ile-Ife and Benin were likely homegrown. They were possibly inspired by the earlier examples of Nok and yet-to-be discovered groups in the Niger-Benue confluence area but there's no direct evidence to suggest a link to Egypt and Nubia, which had gone into decline thousands of years earlier.

Sorry I won't be replying much to this thread as I expect it to be swamped by children/bigots/ignorant people etc. soon. I hope you and Lakal keep posting your informative material though. The silent readers appreciate it.

TerraCotta, na you biko. Thanks for responding.

anonymous6:

understood

well the Nok connection with the Yoruba's are factual but I guess the Egyptian connection maybe to far back to be confirmed, it is still a never ending debate in the Yoruba community but the Nok ancestral connection to Yoruba is fact but I never ever believe Yoruba are from Arabs( I don't know who believes that). I have heard the original Egyptians were black africans(since their ancestors are the Nubians) but lighter until they started mixing with Arabs, Greeks, and etc though

Many Yoruba muslim belive Oduduwa is from mecca. When the Arab and yoruba start trading, them arabs try to convert us to islam. One of the propaganda they should was that Oduduwa was from Mecca. We can all thank Oba of oyo for not beliving that shi.t and for defending yoruba people from arab invaders.

Omg. Oba Awole really cursed us

"My curse be on you and your disloyalty and your disobedience, so let your children disobey you. If you send them on an errand, let them never return to bring you word again. To all points I shot my arrows, you will be carried as slaves. My curse will carry to the sea and beyond the seas. Slaves will rule over you, and you their masters will become slaves. Broken calabash can be mended but not a broken dish; so let my words be irrevocable."

May this yeye Oba burn in hell.

Rgp92:

Many Yoruba muslim belive Oduduwa is from mecca. When the Arab and yoruba start trading, them arabs try to convert us to islam. One of the propaganda they should was that Oduduwa was from Mecca. We can all thank Oba of oyo for not beliving that shi.t and for defending yoruba people from arab invaders.

I never understood that Mecca nonsense with Oduduwa, I don't know why some Muslim Yoruba embraced that explanation. Any way thanks for the info, I guess we should thank Oba of Oyo to the fulliest.

Very beautiful pieces of artwork that definitely challenge long held assumptions about West Africa and Africa in general
They were able to do in one try what the Greeks had to do several times over (through repairs and etc)

I hope Nigeria capitalizes on their history and art in the near future

Crayola1:

Very beautiful pieces of artwork that definitely challenge long held assumptions about West Africa and Africa in general
They were able to do in one try what the Greeks had to do several times over (through repairs and etc)

I hope Nigeria capitalizes on their history and art in the near future

Cosign 100%, I agree

I hope so to but I already see signs that Nigeria is starting that now:

[flash=500,500]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHzWEtZNxPQ&feature=related[/flash]
[flash=500,500]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9wywulUX08&feature=related[/flash]

The Benin-Ife Connection
{By Omo N'Oba Erediauwa}
It is during the preparation for his coronation that the future Oba chooses the title or name he is to be known as at his coronation.How and where this is done began with the arrival from Ile-Ife of Prince Oranmiyan, the son of Oduduwa of Uhe, about 1170 years ago according to modem historians. Briefly, this is the account. Before the advent of Qranmiyan, the kings that ruled the people that came to be known as Edo or Benin were called Ogiso.The title is said (by local
tradition)to have derived (and abbreviated) from the description Ogie n oriso (meaning King in Heaven) and it originated from the wisdom in managing the affairs of state especially settling disputes as demonstrated by the first and second of the earliest rulers known as Igodo and Ere.
I must comment here, in passing, that I personally have never accepted the account of our late illustrious historian, Jacob U. Egharevba when he wrote in the very first edition of his now authoritative book A Short History of Benin, the following:

Many, many years ago, Odua (Oduduwa) of Uhe (Ile-Ife) the father and progenitor of the Yoruba kings sent his eldest son Obagodo who took the title of Ogiso with a large retinue all the way from Uhe to found a Kingdom in this part of the world. And in the fourth (and now current) edition of the book, the late author wrote:

Many many years ago, the Binis came all the way from Egypt to found a more secure shelter in this part of the world, after a short stay in the Sudan and at Ile Ife. which the Benin people call Uhe.

The rulers or kings were commonly known as Ogiso before the arrival of Oduduwa and his party at Ife in Yoruba land, about the 12th Century of the Christian era.

It is this fourth edition of the book, which historians in the University of Ibadan assisted to re-write and was printed by the Ibadan University Press, that earned the late illustrious historian the doctorate from that university.

It is not the intention here to discredit Jacob U. Egharevba, an illustrious historian (and traditional chief), but since this write-up will bring in the historical link between Ife and Benin, it is impossible not to point out errors or contradictions in the extracts quoted. There are contradictions between the first edition and the fourth edition of the man's books. Apart from the fact that the Edo n ekue (Edo-Akure-.partly Benin partly Yoruba by birth) blood in the man manifested itself, the experts in the Ibadan University contributed to the contradictions.

Confining ourselves for now to the extracts quoted, it is necessary to point out that it is historically wrong to describe Odua or Oduduwa as the father and progenitor of the Yoruba kings.The knowledgeable (and one may add, the honest ones) among Yoruba traditional historians know only too well that the person who came to be known as Odua or Oduduwa had only seven children with Oranyan (or Oranmiyan) as the last and youngest. It is also a known historical fact that by the time Oduduwa emerged in Ife, from the east as modem Yoruba historians usually put it, there were many Yoruba communities in existence and who had their leaders or kings. So Odua or Oduduwa could not have been the father of Yoruba kings.

The mistake that modem historians (including Yoruba) made, as I have found from my own studies, is that they confused Oduduwa with Qrunmila, the bringer of Ifa divination. It was Orunmila who, according to traditional account, had sixteen children, each of whom he sent to rule over each of sixteen communities in his own world, among which were Ife and Ado (Benin).

Furthermore, Oduduwa could not have been the founder of Yoruba kings because, of his seven children, one became lame, one developed hunchback, and another turned to a river leaving four able-bodied ones. Every babalawo (whom love of money has not tainted!) knows these accounts. Still on the extract quoted above, it is also a known traditional historical fact that it was not his eldest son, but the youngest that Oduduwa sent to the Benin people.

That Oduduwa could not have been the father of Yoruba kings, or founder of Yoruba race as modem Yoruba historians now put it, is also borne out of the fact that the Ife account itself has it that there were five rulers in Ife before the advent of Oduduwa and this makes the reference to the 12th Century in Jacob U. Egharevba fourth edition relevant.
Some apology for that rather lengthy digression; but it is necessary because of what follows here.

This is a convenient point to return to the issue I began this section with, which is where and how the future Oba of Benin chooses the title name by which he is to be known at his coronation. As stated above, it all began with the arrival of Prince Oranmiyan from Ife. We have stated that the earliest rulers or kings in what is today Edo or Benin were known as Ogiso.The first was known as Ogiso Igodo and the last (of the thirty-one or so of them) was Ogiso Owodo.

It can be said that Ogiso Owodo's era ended the first period of kingship in our history. His was a long account of an unhappy reign but briefly it was that as a result of these events, which were traced by oracle to his only child and son, Owodo was advised by oracle, so it was said, to have the son executed. Owodo (unaware that he had been tricked about his son) got the Oka odionmwan (public executioner) to perform the act. But the executioner had pity on the son, and on reaching the outskirts of the city, let him off. From there the prince wandered into the world, settling alone first in Ughoton, where the elders gave him hospitality.

Ogiso Owodo passed away without an heir. In the period of interregnum that followed, powerful community leaders began to strive for the throne. Among the most powerful was one known as Evian. His attempt to usurp the throne was stoutly resisted by the Edion (the elders) of the Benin people. While this was going on, word came in that Ogiso Owodo's son (his name was Ekaladerhan) who was to have been executed was seen alive in Ughoton. Immediately, the elders sent out emissaries to look for him and invite him to come to take his throne.
When information got to him, he was stricken with fear that they were still after his head. So after consulting with his Ughoton hosts, he fled the village.

When the Benin emissaries got to Ughoton and reported their mission, the Ughoton elders told the emissaries that Prince Ekaladerhan had been there but had since left. When asked where to, the people said they did not know but that he went in that direction. The emissaries followed in that direction until they arrived at a village where they announced their mission like in the former village the people in this second village also said he was there but had since departed and went in that direction.And so making enquiry from village to village and following in that direction the Benin emissaries emerged in a community they got to know as Uhe.

The local people, on sighting the strangers got frightened and ran to inform their village head who ordered that the strangers be brought to him. When they appeared before the village head, the Benin emissaries introduced themselves, narrated their mission and whom they were in search of.

Prince Ekaladerhan, who by this time had assumed new name, Oduduwa, said he was the one they were looking for. To be sure, the emissaries gave him a test by throwing at him some events back home in Benin which, to their surprise, their host recollected vividly and even narrated himself. This, indeed, was Ekaladerhan, and they fell on their knees to greet him.

The emissaries from Benin, having satisfied themselves of the man identity, asked the next obvious questions: how had he become the village head of the people with the name they heard the people call him? Ekaladerhan (or Oduduwa) narrated his experience in Benin language thus: When he emerged from the bush into the village, he was led by the local people to their village head to whom he narrated his plight and how he wandered in the bush to get to the village. In answer to question as to his name, he told the village head imado d uwa (meaning,I have not missed the road to good fortune) in allusion to the welcome hospitality he had received since he arrived. The village head then asked what the stranger could do and he replied that he was a hunter and a herbalist. (He had acquired both, art or science, during his wandering through the forest).

The village head then handed the stranger to one of the local people to house him. (Note that the stranger was led by the local people to their village head, suggesting that the community did have a head ruler king at the time Ekaladerhan who became Oduduwa emerged in their midst). It was while here that he demonstrated his knowledge of herbs: a pregnant woman was in difficulty and after all kinds of treatment had failed, words reached the stranger (Ekaladerhan or Oduduwa) who immediately offered to help.

He was led to the home of the woman, and after examining her, he went back home, prepared some medicine which he returned to apply to the woman. Soon after, the woman was delivered of her baby, safe and sound. Asked what his fee was, the stranger merely answered it was God's work and no fee. Soon his reputation as a medicine man became widely known, and patients were brought to him from within and outside Ife community, all of whom the stranger treated free of charge. This greatly endeared him to all.

The next episode in Ekaladerhan's (Oduduwa's) arrival in Ife must be very interesting to present-day Ife people as it answers the Benin emissaries question as to how the stranger became the village head. The account is that a revolt broke out against the original settlers and the village head, who were said to be Ugbo Ilaje. They were defeated and they fled to their original home in Ugbo. With the popularity Ekaladerhan (or Oduduwa) had established for himself as a powerful medicine man it was no difficulty at all for the victors in the revolt to invite him to assume leadership of the community as their new head, a position he accepted with humility. It is an historical fact known.

I believe, to present-day Ife people, that the original settlers whom Ekaladerhan (Oduduwa) met moved away from Ife to a place called Ugbo,- a very ancient Ilaje town in Okitipupa area. Ife elders, especially the traditional title holders, must know the rest of the Ugbo episode as it affects Ife and Oduduwa because Ife people today perform a ritual festival that re-enacts the events that caused the original settlers including their village head to flee from Ife and Ekaladerhan (or Oduduwa) to become the head of the community. So that is Ekaladerhan (or Oduduwa) in Ife.

We have again digressed a bit, but the digression was worthwhile in order to show that the person whom the Benin emissaries found in Ife was actually Prince Ekaladerhan, the son of Ogiso Owodo who was banished to be executed but spared by the executioner and wandered into the unknown, from Ughoton. The mission to search for him was to bring him home to ascend the throne and so end the period of interregnum.

The Benin emissaries delivered their message, but Ekaladerhan replied, as the emissaries reported back to the elders at home, that he was happy where he was and, in any case too old to travel; but he was prepared to send his youngest son if the Benin people would submit to a test that they would take good care of him. This is another lengthy account which we need not go into here. Suffice it to state that the Benin people did submit to and passed Oduduwas test and so Oranmiyan (or Oranyan in Yoruba) came to Benin as the ruler of the people.

This is where we come to how and where the choosing of a coronation title by the future Oba of Benin originated, as stated earlier, from the arrival of Oranmiyan in Benin. Benin traditional account has it that Oranmiyan could not live in Benin: he spent only akia (three lunar months) before he packed and left in anger. The annoyance arose from three factors: first, he did not understand the Benin language; second, he found his Yoruba custom different from the Benin; thirdly, and it was this that really did it, he discovered that whenever he and his people from Ife were performing some secret rituals, Benin people, including some elders who had often wondered at the Ife people's secretiveness, used to climb walls to peep at them. Enough was enough and he decided to leave.

On his way, he stopped at the Enogie of Egor to leave his wife Erinmwinde in her parent's care. She was the daughter of the Enogie and was pregnant. As her pregnancy advanced her father, the Enogie of Egor sent reports to Oduduwa whom the Benin people called Oghene n Uhe.

Oduduwa also sent emissaries to monitor his daughter-in-law's progress. As the pregnancy advanced, Ogie Egor decided to send his daughter, Erinmwinde, to Erinmwinde's maternal parents in Use, next door village to Egor, for better medical attention and to ensure some degree of privacy for the King's wife.It was at Use, Erinmwinde (Oranmiyan's wife) put to bed and word was immediately sent to Oghene n Uhe (Oduduwa) who sent two servants to minister to his daughter-in-law and grandchild. They  were known as Olo or Olero, a native medicine man whose task was to counter any evil things; the other was Adigi whose task was to fetch firewood for the new mother. The Benin people corrupted Adigi to "Edigin as it is called today; Olo is still Olo. Both are now traditional titles of the Oba of Benin.

Erinmwinde's son grew but could not speak and word was sent to Uhe (Ife). Oghene n Uhe (or Oduduwa) then sent a babalawo by name Ehendiwo with seven medicinal akhue seeds used in playing a kind of game on the ground by Benin people. The seeds are arranged in lines on the ground with each player throwing his own to knock down the opponents seed. The young (dumb) Prince was to participate in this game and Ehendiwo was to bring out his own seeds for the dumb Prince to use when all the players had exhausted theirs.

This was what Ehendiwo did; the Prince threw his medicinal seeds and succeeded in knocking down the opponent's remaining one standing seed, and when he hit it, he exclaimed[b] in his father's tongue OWOMIKA (no doubt moved by the power of the medicinal seeds)[/b]. OWOMIKA has been translated to mean my hand has struck it and from that moment the young Prince's tongue became loosened and he was then able to speak.

The Benin people corrupted OWOMIKA to Eweka and gave it as the title to Oranmiyan's son who thus became known to the Benin people as Eweka.(Modern historians later made him Eweka 1). It was the ritual performed that gave Oranmiyan's son the title of Eweka that every subsequent Oba-to-be goes to Use to perform to this day.

Ehendiwo since became the Oba's principal Ifa priest, while Edigin (Adigi) and Olo are Oba's traditionul title holders in Use. It was the same place in Use I went to in February, 1979, to perform the age-old ritual to select the name Erediauwa that I now answer, by the Grace of God and my ancestors. I thank God and my ancestors and the functionaries that everything went smoothly and successfully. Having now chosen a name, the next item on the programme was the actual coronation.

http://www.edoworld.net/The_Benin_Ife_Connection.html

It is an undisputed fact that the Yoruba people exist before Oduduwa, but i am yet to believe that Oduduwa came from Benin.

Maybe the ethnic divide was not that prevalent then and  people were just moving about, and knowingly or unknowingly contributing their quota to what we now know as culture.
We are different people but the difference get blurrier as you move eastward.Ondo town people will tell you their monarchical lineage is from the alaafin and this put another spanner into the puzzle though looking at their facial/tribal marks it becomes plausible.

@OP

Rgp92:

Many Yoruba muslim belive Oduduwa is from mecca. When the Arab and yoruba start trading, them arabs try to convert us to islam. One of the propaganda they should was that Oduduwa was from Mecca. We can all thank Oba of oyo for not beliving that shi.t and for defending yoruba people from arab invaders.

You have killed me
The stuff that ppl believe ehn.

NL funny place.

@post

Yoruba history is always so fascinating. just wish we could capitalize on that. We have so many Non-Africans waiting to explore and learn. Gosh, Nigerians have soooo much resources, they dont know what to do with them.

Ileke-IdI:


@post

Yoruba history is always so fascinating. just wish we could capitalize on that. We have so many Non-Africans waiting to explore and learn. Gosh, Nigerians have soooo much resources, they dont know what to do with them.

cosign 100%, I agree

Ondo town people will tell you their monarchical lineage is from the alaafin and this put another spanner into the puzzle

which puzzle?

is it easier to believe the binicentric version of yoruba history?

objective analysis will either confirm or deny majority of the claims.

in addition, google is meant to investigate what people already know of their traditions and history, not that it should be used to build an entirely fabricated version of events.

On this point, we agree. I don't understand the obsession with finding the "origins" of Yoruba, Edo etc. cultures in Egypt. Common sense dictates that Egyptians could not have flown over modern Libya, Chad and Niger to plant their culture only in southern Nigeria, ignoring modern Ghana, Togo, Cameroon, Congo etc. It's highly unlikely and doesn't hold up to scholarly scrutiny.

TC,

I think you made an inway with this argument but then you stopped short of looking at it broadly. Let me give it the expansion it merits. Physics has not correctly interpreted Akhen or Akin. I know of five Oduduwa sovereignties that commonly use this name - Ijebu, Egba, Ijesha/Ekiti, Itsekiri, Bini/Edo. Edo cannot be an exception to the rule of usage and meaning. Perhaps if he would be unbiased in that interpretation, then you and everyone else can see where the dots connect. This is not about scholarship, but about truth!

Let me expand this argument broadly and include African-Americans. Slavery occurred in age of literature and coumentation. Their history was not an oral passdown from one ancestral generation to a descending one as it was in the historical timeline in which Lamurudu, Oduduwa and Ife all happened. If it had been, the same question and doubts would be raised to explain their ancestral root to Africa and it will be difficult to explain how Ifa could have lept over so many lands and peoples and a wide ocean to go settle in Brazil, Cuba, Puerto Rico and America. If literature, not oral tradition, was available at the time of IYoruba migration from AfroAsia, this matter would easily have been settled. But hold on a minute,. . . . the accounts of their journey and migration was probably written. In the many tragedies that befell Africa when Europeans arrived, discovery of such record would have been the first casualty of racism; afterall we witnessed the same with Samuel Crowther's chronicle of the roots of Yoruba people - it was supressed!

Again, this is nothing against or for scholarship and logic. . . . this pure search for the truth!

Many Yoruba muslim belive Oduduwa is from mecca

Do you know why? Because Islam and Ifa share close similarity in rituals and mysteries. Christianity does not have anything in common with Ifa so Christians are not readily aware of the link.

Negro_Ntns:

Do you know why?  Because Islam and Ifa share close similarity in rituals and mysteries.  Christianity does not have anything in common with Ifa so Christians are not readily aware of the link. 

Only thing Islam and Ifa got in common is that both are religion or else Ifa and Islam got nothing in common.

Stop fooling yourself, that Oduduwa was from mecca was a propaganda used by Arab. Christianity also did it part, but that is another thing.

And please Negro_Ntns hold the jew arab thing to yourself.

Quran:

"Slay them wherever you find them, (Surah 2:190-)

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)

"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people, They desire nothing but your ruin, You believe in the entire Book, When they meet you they say: 'We, too, are believers.' But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage." (Surah 3:118, 119)

"If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, His forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches, " (Surah 3:156-)

"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)

"The Jews and Christians say: 'We are the children of God and His loved ones.' Say: 'Why then does He punish you for your sins?" (Surah 5:18)

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)

Ifa on the other tells you how to live peacefully with other no matter what religion. Ifa is a way of life to the Yorubas. Thats why you dont see Yoruba muslim and Christian fighting.

I still belive that Yoruba muslims are more stvpid than their Christian counterpart.

rgp,

First of all, I think you are ruining cordial discussions with the direction you have taken. Keep your emotions and sentiments at bay and share what you know without denigrating others. If you can do that it will be nice.

It is amazing that on meeting people ask what is my religion. No one ever ask what is my truth. We never speak to one another on truth, we speak on the currency of religion and academic scholarship - gaps and differences!

My friend, you do not know me enough to associate me with what you charge. Those with whom I have been on this journey of Yoruba roots will tell you that:

1. I have never said Yoruba is from Mecca.
2. I have never said Yoruba descended from Arabs.
3. I have never said Yoruba descended from Jews.

So please don't say things about me that you are unfamiliar with.


On the topic of roots generally, who are you to tell me whaat to claim or not claim about Yoruba? You are educated but you have failed to see a pattern in the way Western world write people history. They first remove what is not palatable to them and replace it with one they desire it to be. You cannot write European history (assuming you can) and leave out the source ofr authority of your accounts. So why should we excuse Burton or any of his comaptriots to write our history and not tell us where they authenticated it? We shut out the accounts of our forefathers as unreliable but we accomodate accounts of European racist as authoritative. What kind of education is this?

Samuel Crowther's work on Yoruba roots and ancestry was supressed and destroyed but his other literatures were published and circulated. What was it in that roots chronicle that they did not want you and I to know? Please my friend, stay with your belief and leave me with my belief that Yoruba is from AfroAsia. This is said respectfully.

tpia@:

which puzzle?

is it easier to believe the binicentric version of yoruba history?

objective analysis will either confirm or deny majority of the claims.

in addition, google is meant to investigate what people already know of their traditions and history, not that it should be used to build an entirely fabricated version of events.

Spanner in the puzzle?
What I meant is  that the link could possibly be found in places like Akure,ekiti,ijesha,owo and ondo(if egos and embellishment won't allow either ife or benin line) but cos these places too have vehemently disagreed with any story connecting(except Owo but on equals basis) them to benin especially on a master servant relation basis as some Benin historians do.the Ondos especially would have none of it.

^And why must they agree with bini if bini's account doesnt reflect actual history?

What makes their own traditional history wrong and bini's right?

Because the portuguese promoted benin?

Negro_Ntns:

rgp,

First of all, I think you are ruining cordial discussions with the direction you have taken. Keep your emotions and sentiments at bay and share what you know without denigrating others. If you can do that it will be nice.

It is amazing that on meeting people ask what is my religion. No one ever ask what is my truth. We never speak to one another on truth, we speak on the currency of religion and academic scholarship - gaps and differences!

My friend, you do not know me enough to associate me with what you charge. Those with whom I have been on this journey of Yoruba roots will tell you that:

1. I have never said Yoruba is from Mecca.
2. I have never said Yoruba descended from Arabs.
3. I have never said Yoruba descended from Jews.

So please don't say things about me that you are unfamiliar with.


On the topic of roots generally, who are you to tell me whaat to claim or not claim about Yoruba? You are educated but you have failed to see a pattern in the way Western world write people history. They first remove what is not palatable to them and replace it with one they desire it to be. You cannot write European history (assuming you can) and leave out the source ofr authority of your accounts. So why should we excuse Burton or any of his comaptriots to write our history and not tell us where they authenticated it? We shut out the accounts of our forefathers as unreliable but we accomodate accounts of European racist as authoritative. What kind of education is this?

Samuel Crowther's work on Yoruba roots and ancestry was supressed and destroyed but his other literatures were published and circulated. What was it in that roots chronicle that they did not want you and I to know? Please my friend, stay with your belief and leave me with my belief that Yoruba is from AfroAsia. This is said respectfully.

Ye let agreed to disagreed.

I don't have to agree to disagree on anything, if I start out right with a broadmind to inspect and analyze every contribution, then there is room to accomodate and to learn. I do not believe in the Nok ancestry you push but because of my approach of the root question from a Yoruba consciousness perspective I am able to accept it into the fold of my convinction, rather than to exclude it as an inadmissible position. To learn and to grow, the approach must be from the need to establish truth, rather than to reveal vulnerabilities.

If I ask you to link these Ife arts to Nok using their consciousness you will find it the most difficult thing to do. Not because you are uneducated or unlearned, but simply because the two civilizations did not have a shared consciousness. Ancestral roots are interlinked via consciousness. Yet, the materials with which the arts were made were partly Nok and we have used the physical aspect of art alone to subject Ife as a sub-part of Nok civilization. That is wrong! Nonetheless, it is a profound knowledge to have.

A lot of things mentioned in the Bible can be found in the Yoruba oral tradition, including the elevation of the younger above the elder, titles like Ancient of Days, the expectation of the Saviour(Ela), and many others. It is just the way Christianity has been presented by many Amorites (oyinbo) including the twisting of names. Clues are everywhere in the Bible and finding them would require a separation of wheat from chaff or not throwing the baby along with the bathwater.

Slavery in the north, south and central America and the trans-Atlantic slave trade were fulfillment of Bible prophecy about Abraham's descendants and we are almost in the 4th generation. This shatters the claims made concerning the validity of Islam.

By the way, it was not Ajayi Crowther's but Samuel Johnson's manuscript that CMS said was lost. It seems Samuel Johnson died from the shock and his brother tried to finish the work. Hence some of the details in the book may not be on point.

Works similar to the "Ife Art" were also common in Israel as the teraphims.
The Ife Art depicting a man holding a ram's horn is perhaps a clue as well. In Israel the horn was blown at certain times and on certain occasions, and will be blown again to signify HIS second coming.

If my take is faulty, the fulfillment of prophecy is not and cannot be denied since it was recorded thousands of years before it occurred.

What if the Benin people gave the bronze-caster from Ife - Obalufon? - the name Iguegha to show that thew welcomed him and appreciated his work?
What is the meaning of Iguegha?
What if the Benin people improved on the casting technique that they were taught?
What if the Benin people already had a casting technique and wanted to improve it, hence the invitation? What if the resulting technique was a combination of 2 traditions?

To assert that Oduduwa was fro Benin would mean that Ifa is from Benin (including all the 16 Odu) and that Yoruba people who bear Odu as prefixes for their names (like Odutola and Odukoya) have Benin roots.



PAST OONIS OF IFE
1ST ODUDUWA

2ND OSANGANGAN OBAMAKIN
3RD OGUN
4TH OBALUFON OGBOGBODIRIN
5TH OBALUFON ALAYEMORE
6TH ORANMIYAN
7TH AYETISE
8TH LAJAMISAN
9TH LAJODOOGUN
10TH LAFOGIDO
11TH ODIDIMODE ROGBEESIN
12TH AWOROKOLOKIN
13TH EKUN
14TH AJIMUDA
15TH GBOONIJIO
16TH OKANLAJOSIN
17TH ADEGBALU
18TH OSINKOLA
19TH OGBORUU
20TH GIESI
21ST LUWOO (FEMALE)
22ND LUMOBI
23RD AGBEDEGBEDE
24TH OJELOKUNBIRIN
25TH LAGUNJA
26TH LARUNNKA
27TH ADEMILU
28TH OMOGBOGBO
29TH AJILA-OORUN
30TH ADEJINLE
31ST OLOJO
32ND OKITI
33RD LUGBADE
34TH ARIBIWOSO
35TH OSINLADE
36TH ADAGBA
37TH OJIGIDIRI
AKINMOYERO 1770-1800
39TH GBANLARE 1800-1823
40TH GBEGBAAJE 1823-1835
41ST WUNMONIJE 1835-1839
42ND ADEGUNLE ADEWELA 1839-1849
43RD DEGBINSOKUN 1849-1878
44TH ORARIGBA 1878-1880
45TH DERIN OLOGBENLA- He was a powerful warrior! 1880-1894
46TH ADELEKAN (OLUBUSE I) 1894-1910
47TH ADEKOLA 1910-1910
48TH ADEMILUYI (AJAGUN) 1910-1930
49TH ADESOJI ADEREMI 1930-1980
50TH OKUNADE SIJUWADE- 1980 Till Date

http://theooni.org/pastoonis.htm

[img]http://4.bp..com/_PgfRBZetNGE/S4Mg6z3zlFI/AAAAAAAABI4/mJvZ7KxvQ0U/s400/wikicommons+youruba+ife.jpg[/img]
http://classical-iconoclast..com/2010/02/british-museum-ife-african-bronzes.html

By the way, it was not Ajayi Crowther's but Samuel Johnson's manuscript that CMS said was lost

Amorphous, thank you jare, yes Samuel Johnson, not Samuel Crowther.  The original was lost but then his brother collected notes and drafts left by Samuel and it eventually went to press.   These Yoruba deniers need to read the book and understand their roots rather than the lies some racist white man fed to them.

Interesting comments above. I'll reply the longer comments and statements somewhat later because I need to look at a few sources for those, but for now I"ll just reply the simplest statements.

Negro_Ntns:
Physics, if you were not a Bini man I'd be upset with you for the blasphemy on Akenzua.  No Prince of an Empire need modesty to attain his birthright.  Names are attributes of the person.  Akin means Braveheart.  It is reserved for men of calvary - warriors and heroes.  Kings were also warriors and led their men to war.  So you will also find princes bearing Akin, in addition to Ade - crownhead.  If you say Aken in Bini does not mean braveheart, then I dispute the meaning you gave to it, knowing that it is most unbefitting of an attribute to give to a son whose birthright to prosperity is ordained by noble blood.  You want a crown prince to be bold and brave, not modest and aspiring to prosperity.

Negro_Ntns:

TC,

I think you made an inway with this argument but then you stopped short of looking at it broadly. Let me give it the expansion it merits.  Physics has not correctly interpreted Akhen or Akin. I know of five Oduduwa sovereignties that commonly use this name - Ijebu, Egba, Ijesha/Ekiti, Itsekiri, Bini/Edo.  Edo cannot be an exception to the rule of usage and meaning.  Perhaps if he would be unbiased in that interpretation, then you and everyone else can see where the dots connect.  This is not about scholarship, but about truth! 

@ Negro_Ntns, it's important to consider things in context. Akenzua was almost not the Oba of Benin and he had to "play the fool" before he could obtain his birthright. It was not just granted to him because he was a prince or had noble blood.

Oba Akenzua the first had to overcome his brother Ozuere, and his brother's powerful supporter, the Iyase of that time (Iyase n'Ode). At that time the Iyase was still the top military commander (as other Iyases had been in the past).

Oba Ewuakpe had already established the principle of primogeniture (the first son takes the throne) as a more firm rule (it wasn't necessarily adhered to before), so the fact that Akenzua would succeed his father Oba Ewuakpe was a done deal, but the Iyase  a) had a strong dislike of the (then prince) Akenzua because of a personal insult or dispute between the two (from Egharevba's account)  and/or b) was related to Ozuere's mother (from R.E. Bradbury's summary of Ezomo Omoruyi's account in the 1950s), so the Iyase and some other leaders schemed to place Ozuere on the throne. After Ozuere usurped the throne and ruled briefly, Akenzua was later able to force both of them out of Benin with the assistance of the future Ezomo, Ehenua, and was able to take his righful place on the throne. Although hostilities and fighting still continued between Akenzua and the Iyase's faction for a significant time afterward, Akenzua and the Ezomo finally triumphed later.

The above is a brief summary of what has been written about this situation in that book (Art, Innovation, and Politics in Eighteenth-Century Benin), and from R.E. Bradbury's account of the situation that he obtained from Ezomo Omoruyi (a descendent of Ehenua) in the early 1950s (one can check R.E. Bradbury's article "Ezomo's ikegobo and the Benin cult of the hand" for details) Additionally, there is some independent written confirmation of a Benin civil war and the eventual triumph of the Oba by different written sources from 1700 to 1721.

Now as for the name itself, that interpretation of the name given there certainly does not originate from me and definitely not from the author of that book (Paula Ben-Amos), Paula Ben-Amos interviewed people in Benin city starting from 1966 to the 1980s, and she got that information from Chief Ihama in Benin:

"Upon assuming the throne, the elder son took the title name of Akenzua. According to Chief Ihama of Igun Eronmwon (pc1981), the name is a shortened version of an Edo phrase: a kon ze uwa, one has to appear modest (play dumb) before attaining prosperity. This theme is related to the notion that the Oba must suffer, must appear lowly before attaining the throne which is drawn from the paradigmatic story about the sufferings of the great warrior and master of occult powers, Oba Ewuare." - Art, Innovation, and Politics in Eighteenth-Century Benin

(pc = personal communication)

I definitely don't claim to know more than he does, so I'm not particularly inclined to go with a different etymology.

If I were to attempt a different etymology however it would be "a" (one (in the sense of a pronoun referring to a person, not the number 1)) + "ke" ("to be suitable"/"it is suitable that"/"ought to" (there are other meanings for ke ("from,", "near", etc.) other than "it is suitable that"/"it ought to be that", but this is the meaning I would use)) + "n" (this has other uses, but it can be used to introduce the subjunctive mood (for something which has not happened, but which one wishes or desires to happen, i.e. what ought to happen), which is what it will mean here) + "ze" (choose, select, take, etc.) + "uwa" (prosperity). So it would be A-ke-n-ze-uwa "One (a) ought to (ke-n-) choose (ze) prosperity (uwa)". While this etymology is not impossible and I might like it a little better, I would definitely defer to the Ihama's knowledge and his interpretation on this.

But even if I did accept that Aken meant brave instead of the reference to pretending to appear as if he accepted being outmaneuvered by his brother and the Iyase (playing dumb or playing the fool) before ousting them and becoming king, I still don't see how "Aken" (brave) + ze (choose, select) + uwa (prosperity) has anything to do with the Egyptian name Akhenaten ("living spirit of Aten". Of course, maybe you believe Akhenaten means "braveheart Aten" or "brave Aten", but I doubt that this is really tenable and Egyptologists and linguists would probably debunk that interpretation pretty easily if they came across it.

I don't deny that the ruling classes of places in Nigeria could possibly have come from Egypt or the Canaanites/Phoenicians and that there seem to be a few links here and there, but I think you should just accept that neither Yoruba nor other "East Kwa"/"Volta-Niger" languages (like Edo, Igbo, Igala, etc.) are really fundamentally Afroasiatic or Proto-semitic even if they might have a few words here or there from those areas. Unless you have some groundbreaking new linguistic study to unveil, I think we should desist from trying to see Egypt or the Middle East in every name and word we come across.

I dont know why black man want to be assosiated with jew or arabs so much. But anyway, lets do it like this

Christian yoruba are descendent of caan

Muslim Yoruba are from mecca.

And we atheist Yoruba, we belive in fact. The closest thing to earlist yoruba group is Nok, so we'll belive that until more evidence is found regarding Yoruba being from Mecca or are in family with the jews.

I recently checked out the book The Nok Culture: Art In Nigeria 2,500 Years Ago, edited by Gert Chesi and Gerhard Merzeder, and there seems to be at least one piece of incontrovertible evidence there  (p. 24, for anyone who can check out the book from a library) linking Nok with Egypt via one of the terracotta and the pose it's making. There are possibly two or three other figures which show a clear similarity with Egyptian art, such as a sphinx like figure and a bird-human creature (a possible reference to Thoth?). There are also several terracotta which show quite clearly that the outfit and style of dress of the Oonis (or whoever those figures depicted in full or half body form in the Ife bronzes are) is probably derived from that of the rulers or certain dignitaries of Nok. I would speculate that this culture (Nok) provided the ruling class for Ife up until a new figure emerged on the scene in or around the 12th century and supplanted an earlier dynasty.

Some of the Nok terracotta seem to show what looks like a possible priest's breastplate, but with a different configuration than that of the Hebrews.

It is not particularly surprising to see Egyptian-like motifs in some of the art, since I've honestly never even thought (looking at the art objectively) that the individuals of the Nok culture art looked anything other than "Near Eastern" or "Mesopotamian" in character, form, appearance, style, etc. although they are definitely black. They may have indeed been from Sudan, Egypt, (or further away still). Of course, what weakens this argument greatly is that evidence has not yet been uncovered which shows that they (the Nok people) were literate, so perhaps they were an indigenous culture that was influenced to some degree by outsiders from the near east.


I will reply some of the other interesting statements in this thread (emmatok, amor4ce, tpia, TerraCotta, Ufeolorun, Negro_Ntns) somewhat later. I have some serious academic obligations right now that I can't really curtail in order to adequately reply the longer posts, or the posts that merit longer responses. There were some other images that I wanted to scan and upload for another thread, and I'll probably scan and upload the Nok images that I'm talking about at the same time and then post them here later so others can see what I mean by what I said immediately above.