I had a long response typed for Negro_Ntns but I lost it (I'm on an iPad). Please see chapter six of this book (much of it is available online): http://books.google.com/books?id=pbIjzvhhY6gC&printsec=frontcover&dq=ancient+egypt+in+africa&hl=en&ei=J42-Trn4LoLN0AGeyLGuBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

If you haven't read Ade Obayemi, Akin Ogunidran, Aribidesi Usman etc, it's hard to understand why this topic shouldn't be a matter of too much dispute. There are many professional archaeologists (many of whom are Yoruba) who have worked on the origins of Ife and the question of an Egyptian link. None of them agree with the theory because there is simply no proof.

I can't use imagination as a reasonable standard of proof re: the Dutch and African-American examples. In those cases, we have documented proofs of a link. If you're asking people to imagine the possibility of Egyptian origin, we might also imagine the possibility of Greek, Etruscan, Mayan, Olmec, Arabic or Russian origins. This is why proof and rigorous evidence have to be the only acceptable standards.

I'll be back later with more.

@ Terra Cotta, your comments are interesting and your approach to this history and the various theories out there  is a refreshing departure from what is sometimes the norm here. You said that you would "add more later". However, I see some serious errors or problems in what you've already written so I would have to ask that you delay your next comments that are addressed to me so that I can adequately respond to what you've written previously, since I am a bit busy with school and cannot as frequently reply thoroughly to posts that merit a serious analysis. Furthermore, I still intend to answer the interesting comments posted by Negro_ntns, tpia, and emmatok as well.

If by "add more later" you were just addressing everyone else on the thread about adding more relevant general information about the art and the history associated with it, then of course, don't mind me, and please do continue to inform others about what you know.

TerraCotta:

I had a long response typed for Negro_Ntns but I lost it (I'm on an iPad). Please see chapter six of this book (much of it is available online): http://books.google.com/books?id=pbIjzvhhY6gC&printsec=frontcover&dq=ancient+egypt+in+africa&hl=en&ei=J42-Trn4LoLN0AGeyLGuBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

I don't know about Negro_Ntns, but I can't access chapter 6 of that book through Google's preview. I suggest that you type up and quote short paragraphs or relevant parts of that chapter or just summarize the main arguments of that author in that chapter. Also, I suggest typing your long responses off the internet and then copying them to the reply box if you aren't already doing that. I've also lost long responses to threads that I didn't type up first in word or wordpad and had to remember and try to rewrite what I meant to post.

Also, what's your opinion on the similarities between the Ife terracotta said to depict Obatala (the terracotta of the supposedly "diseased" short bald man with a skull on a necklace around his neck) and the ancient Egyptian artwork depicting Bes? I'd be interested in knowing what your perspective on that is in your next response to me.

Negro_Ntns: sorry o. I wrote a reply to that link to Crowther's dictionary. I'm very familiar with that book and other editions by Ajayi Crowther and other missionaries (there are about four or five I can think of). None of them have any information pertaining to Old HebRew.

I'm looking forward to your responses, Physics. I have a digital copy of the book do I'll cut and paste the relevant pages today.

Physics,

I could not get chapter 6 either but I will wait to read TC's when he pastes it in here. In case you didn't see it - but knowing you, I'm sure you did - here is the repeat: I heard you are a Bini prince.

If you haven't read Ade Obayemi, Akin Ogunidran, Aribidesi Usman etc, it's hard to understand why this topic shouldn't be a matter of too much dispute. There are many professional archaeologists (many of whom are Yoruba) who have worked on the origins of Ife and the question of an Egyptian link. None of them agree with the theory because there is simply no proof.

I quite understand! It's not like I have any proof in my posession either. However, there are things which are self-evident in their own truths. Since you are not interested in mystical revelations then I will stay only in the physical.

1. It is universally accepted by scholars and historians that Obelisks are exclusively Egyptian. Any other culture that posesses the knowledge is either an auxiliary of Egypt or has merely copied and erected one for landscape effect. How did Ife, an unlettered people in the savannah of sub sahara Africa, get an Obelisk - Opa Oranmiyan?

2. We just got through discussing the relevance of prostrations and kneeling in Yoruba culture. Yoruba share with the Abrahamic faiths very similar acts of spiritual rituals, including priest garments and instruments of altar offerings.

3. In Ifa verses, the theme is "two" and the cadence is "repetitive", just as in the Holy scriptures of the Abrahamic faith.

I can't use imagination as a reasonable standard of proof re: the Dutch and African-American examples. In those cases, we have documented proofs of a link. If you're asking people to imagine the possibility of Egyptian origin, we might also imagine the possibility of Greek, Etruscan, Mayan, Olmec, Arabic or Russian origins. This is why proof and rigorous evidence have to be the only acceptable standards.

Yoruba had proofs too -I already mentioned Samuel Johnson's book and Sultan Bello's book, both were destroyed.

Imagination is what much of Greek classicsare made of. Romeo and Juliet is not a true act, neither is Othello. Homer is a fictional character hewn out of imagination and creativity. But we pride our civility and academic scholarship on these fables.

@ Negro_Ntns, no I am not a prince.  Where did you hear that?

When exotik called me "ovbioba" that was just a compliment, not meant literally, if that's what you're referring to.

What if the Yoruba met the Opa Oranmiyan there and wove a story around it?

Physics,

I checked and yes you are correct it came from grapevine's contact with the ovbioba reference. I suspect your denial is an act of modesty, but I will take the answer. Thank you.


Amor4ce,

You are taking us back to imagination with that question. Give your opinion of the evidence first before invoking creativity around the Obelisk.

lakal:





Osangangan = "High Noon" or mid-day.   The "high noon" was also worshiped as a deity, Osangangan. (Osan gan gan)

do you know more about the worship of osangangan.

i noticed most of the ifa divination trays are shaped like the sun, or cosmos. Some even have "rays" on the outer circumference.

also, do you know anything about the osupa [moon]  lineage found in parts of yorubaland.

tpia@:



do you know more about the worship of osangangan.

i noticed most of the ifa divination trays are shaped like the sun, or cosmos. Some even have "rays" on the outer circumference.

also, do you know anything about the osupa [moon]  lineage found in parts of yorubaland.

No real knowledge from me on either -- here is a small quote about Osangangan being a deity. 

http://books.google.com/books?id=zMiV__25izEC&pg=PA49&lpg=PA49&dq=osangangan+deity&source=bl&ots=NVRn_EDOHT&sig=y_Kh9UD7T92X2rS0dgSjezOuaHQ&hl=en&ei=-uS_TpmRHIfj0QGbg_T0BA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

The worship of noon, sun, moon, mountains, rivers, etc are all representative of an animistic religion.  Every natural feature in Yorubaland could be traditionally revered as a deity.


However I do know that the expression "osangangan" is used among Yorubas to refer to both the high noon time, as well as a climatic point. "Aiye l'a ba Ifa, Aiye l'a ba Imale, Osan gangan ni Igbagbo wole."   (Ifa existed before us, Islam existed before us, Afternoon is when Christianity came)

Negro_Ntns/Physics: I can't copy and paste from my version of this book since its copyright-protected but see if you're able to read the following pages:

http://books.google.com/books?id=6F4E6rKw928C&pg=PA85&dq=Ancient+Egypt+in+Africa+Yoruba&hl=en&ei=5Oi_Tua9AuX40gHrk4mrBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Ancient%20Egypt%20in%20Africa%20Yoruba&f=false

If not, just do a search in books.google.com for "Ancient Egypt in Africa Yoruba" and it will bring you to the relevant section.

Lakal--your translation of Osangangan is the one I know of as well (unless we're talking about stale oranges!). There are some references to the deity in Bishop Ajayi Crowther's writings as well but not much in the way of detail. I want to say that I remember AB Ellis mentioning Osangangan too but I'll have to search for the reference. The proverb you added is a great one too. You would really like Richard Burton's "Wit and Wisdom of West Africa", if you haven't already read it. It's available for free through Google Books since its out of copyright like many 19th century sources.

Negro--Obelisks (and pyramids and hieroglyphs) don't seem to be limited to ancient Egypt and related cultures at all--they're all found in South America for instance. Opa Oranmiyan even resembles some of the stone monoliths found in England related to the Stonehenge builders. The superficial resemblance isn't enough justification for an actual cultural link. The example I'd suggest to you is the similarity between the Edo empire of Nigeria and that of Japan. They share a name but there's no evidence--cultural, linguistic or written--to suggest any links. We'd need more evidence to affirm this link.

Physics--you'd asked about similarities between an Obatala image and an Egyptian sculpture. Could you post the two? You'll see the cover of "Ancient Egypt in Africa" compares an Ife terracotta with an Egyptian official. The book doesn't support the theory of a link though.

@ TerraCotta, as I said before, I will reply your earlier posts some days from now when I have much more time, and I'll also post the Nok/Egypt similarity and some other relevant Nok pictures some days from now as well, but for now I'll just post the Ife terracotta that I referred to. I might as well mention now that the Nok-Egyptian similarity on the piece that I called "incontrovertible evidence" was not pointed out by me, but by the authors of that book, who placed the Egyptian figure and the Nok figure side by side on p. 24 of that book (although they did not call it "incontrovertible evidence" like I did, but merely noted that the Egyptian and the Nok figure were "strikingly similar". It is not merely a superficial similarity, and it is not at all about the style of the art, but rather the specific pose and form of the figure, which may have some sort of religious significance. I also did not say that the Nok culture was really Egyptian or that they originated from Egypt (and I also noted that there is no evidence that they were literate). I merely said that there was a link.

This is the Ife terracotta which was said (in an art book on Ife) to be either a representation of Obatala or of a diseased man:

[img]http://hum.lss.wisc.edu/hjdrewal/Ife3.jpg[/img]

This is one depiction of Bes in Egyptian art:




You can see some of the many other depictions of Bes from a simple google images search of "Egyptian Bes":

http://www.google.com/search?um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&biw=1173&bih=648&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=egyptian+bes&btnG=Search&oq=egyptian+bes&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=0l0l0l639223l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0ll0l0


I came across one blog which makes the following claim:

"Ugly and never shown in profile this dwarf-like god looks very un-Egyptian, and indeed it is suspected that he was imported from somewhere else, maybe other parts of Africa.
Still, as a protector of homes and childbirth, Bes was quite popular although no temples were dedicated to him.
He also acted as god of war and music.
This high relief of Bes (also spelt: Bisu or Bez) is at the entrance to the Dendera temple of Hathor (near Luxor)

http://www.travelphoto.net/a-photo-a-day/wordpress/2008/01/25/egyptian-god-bes-at-dendera/


But I do not see the source for their claim that "it is suspected that he was imported from somewhere else" nor who it is that suspects this.

I am not claiming that these are necessarily the same figure, but they seem very similar in some respects: open mouth with tongue showing (as if shouting something or cursing someone - although admittedly, most of the other Bes figures do not have their mouths open), puffy cheeks, wide head, short and wide nose, sunken in eyes, skull hanging beneath their head, and a short/low forehead.

Here's some more of Egypt's Bes:



http://www.egyptancient.net/godsbes.htm

These could possibly be different and unrelated, but I do suspect a connection (religious) of some sort between the two pieces of art.

lakal:

The worship of noon, sun, moon, mountains, rivers, etc are all representative of an animistic religion.  Every natural feature in Yorubaland could be traditionally revered as a deity.

true, i'm just trying to see if there's any egyptian connection to sun worship there.

also, trying to look into lineage and culture links.

@PhysicsQED, very interesting comparison, was that in the Ancient Egypt in Africa book?


About whether it represents Obatala or a diseased man, it could possibly be both, as Obatala was supposed to be the patron of the deformed and disabled in Yoruba mythology.

What if the name Osangangan really had to do with citrus fruits? Remember the musician who called himself Atawewe. What if he had a farm of ginormous citrus fruits?

@ Terra Cotta. I was able to access and read most of the chapter (except for 4 pages) and it was very interesting and  I liked the spirit of his analysis, but I think that certain images say much more about the possible connections of Egyptian religion with certain areas of West Africa than all the words in that book chapter possibly could:






Statue of the Cortier Bes 664-610 BCE Egyptian Art Limestone Museu Calouste Gulbenkian, Lisbon, Portugal

http://www.superstock.com/stock-photos-images/1443-868




Egyptian civilization, Middle Kingdom, Dynasty XXII. Basalt statue of seated visir Hori. Height 96 cm. From Karnak, Temple of Amun, Courtyard of the Cachette. (Photo By DEA / S. VANNINI/De Agostini/Getty Images)

http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/122222405






Tada, Seated figure, Late 13th-14th century C.E. Fundación Marcelino Botín/Museum for African Art. © National Commission for Museums and Monuments, Nigeria.

http://www.imamuseum.org/art/exhibitions/ife/image-gallery


@ lakal,

Interesting to find out that Obatala was the patron of the disabled/deformed. I guess that is why that terracotta was identified as a representation of Obatala. I did not come across this comparison in the Ancient Egypt in Africa book that TerraCotta posted. A long time ago I stumbled upon a thread making a comparison  of the two figures on the egyptsearch/egyptsearch reloaded forum, but I didn't stop and think about it too seriously then because some of the (Egypt obsessed) posters on that site tend to post conjectural/conspiracy theory like information on that site in addition to posting very rarely mentioned and interesting legitimate information. When I saw the figure of the Nok terracotta (that I keep mentioning, but have yet to post  ) and its crystal clear connection to Egypt, and then saw four different images of Nok terracotta wearing outfits similar to that of the Oonis, then I started to remember this comparison and the probable link.


I came across yet another reference to Bes being a foreign deity that was introduced to Egypt on one of the website links I posted above:

'Bes was a family genius, who with Theuris, protected the house. His popularity was enormous, mostly in the New Reign. He was represented by a bearded dwarf with a dangling tongue, with crooked legs and a long dangling tail, he was a grotesque figure. He defended the house from the evil spirits, besides keeping away the dangers from men., with Theuris he protected the women in labour from any painful aspect of the delivery. He was also the protector of sleep, and in fact he was often represented on beds to prevent the evil geniuses to appear in dreams. He was god of dancing and of joyful events and he was also often represented while he was playing a drum. He presided over personal hygiene and his image is carved on many objects used for this purpose. It seems his origin was foreign. He was the “Guardian of the door”, in the mystery initiations, his name in fact means “to begin, to introduce”. '

http://www.egyptancient.net/godsbes.htm


I suspect that both the websites that mention that he was probably a foreign deity to Egypt are drawing upon the work of some old and obscure Egyptologist or on some general work on Egyptian religion (rather than making merely making their own guesses), but don't care to give references or citations for their information.

The worship of noon, sun, moon, mountains, rivers, etc are all representative of an animistic religion.  Every natural feature in Yorubaland could be traditionally revered as a deity.

true.

in the case of yoruba mythology, i think most of these deities are linked to the emergence of actual people and cultural exchange/power integration or consolidation in regional areas.

like the introduction of a skill, group of immigrants, etc.

^^^ All these fly-by night anthropologists have started again?

em, i.diots should not get on my nerves plz.

i'll post what i like, when i like.

you have the freedom to NOT read my posts and neither is it a must to comment.

if your brain gets too irritated then start a useless thread to discuss useless things you find interesting.




END OF!!!!!

bunch of asss licking twats!!!

^^^
Is this  where you feel appreciated and dignified with your imaginary anthropology knowledge?

When your mates were busy going to school, what were you doing? Doing 'alomoko' with brother Suraju from adjacent street?

Igbeyin lo n d'oloku ada.

See your life? NL intellectual of no repute? OAU drop out


How much do you get from parading yourself as NL's anthropology intellectual?

WRT your nerves? Lets go there!

^^is that what passes for yoruba where you come from in some muddy swamp deep in central africa?

^^^^

SUp Tpia, how was your weekend?

Se awon boys fisi fun e?

Abi ofi won paaa ni? Ma shee yen mehn?

Negro--Obelisks (and pyramids and hieroglyphs) don't seem to be limited to ancient Egypt and related cultures at all--they're all found in South America for instance. Opa Oranmiyan even resembles some of the stone monoliths found in England related to the Stonehenge builders. The superficial resemblance isn't enough justification for an actual cultural link.

TC,

Give specific people and places outside of Egypt, Axum and Ife, where an Obelisk was erected for any other purpose than a mark of worship or record of origin.


Physics,

What is your conclusion of the Obatala/Bes link, in perspective of what we have been discussing in matters of origin?



This is open to the personm somewhere who said Opa Orayan was a designation to Ogun worship. The staff was erected immediately after his death. In the reign of Oranyan and immediately afterwards did the people of Ife worship ogun?

Negro_Ntns:



TC,

Give specific people and places outside of Egypt, Axum and Ife, where an Obelisk was erected for any other purpose than a mark of worship or record of origin.

Absolutely: http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/menhirs.htm

I don't like to rely on Wikipedia as a source, but this page shouldn't be too controversial. In any case, it's the images that are important:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menhir#History

You'll see that Opa Oranmiyan in many ways is more similar to smooth-sided European monoliths than the angular, pyramidal shapes covered with hieroglyphs found in Egypt. Happy to provide more if you're interested although I think we're starting to get away from Ife and directly related cultures, which are at the center of the discussion.

PhysicsQED:

@ Terra Cotta. I was able to access and read most of the chapter (except for 4 pages) and it was very interesting and  I liked the spirit of his analysis, but I think that certain images say much more about the possible connections of Egyptian religion with certain areas of West Africa than all the words in that book chapter possibly could:

Art historical evidence is powerful and can provide evidence. I don't think anyone could deny the resemblance between the images you posted. However, as in physics, correlation in art and cultural production does not imply causation. Take a look at these images:





Compare them to the seated Tada figure, or particularly the many seated Nok figurines:



[img]http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files./2008/04/nokboy.jpg[/img]

You start to see that superficial resemblances are fairly common in human cultural production. With more time, I could show the same similiarities with Roman art, Chinese terracottas and so on. I'm not against the idea and you and Negro_Ntns have pointed out some interesting correlations. My point is that none of the mainstream specialists in the field with professional qualifications agree that there's a direct link.

Had a moment so I wanted to add two quick things which I hope we can talk about in further details later. The first is the origins, meaning and identity of Oduduwa/Odua. I'll save this for Phsyics' response since I'll refer to some of my earlier points for this.

The other issue is that of the decorative tile work (often called 'potsherd pavement' by archaeologists) which is a distinctive feature of Ife and other Yoruba-Edo sites of the classical era. There are examples of this pavement style, which indicate a sophisticated urban culture, from the area around Lake Chad and modern northeast Nigeria left by a little-known culture called Sao (again, we're unsure what they called themselves because unlike Egyptians but like the 'Nok', Yoruba, Edo etc, they had no known written language). I hesitate to bring them up because there were many claims of an Egyptian origin for these folks also (as there are for Great Zimbabwe, Asante in Ghana etc.) I won't touch on the claims of Egyptian provenance here since I want to stay on topic with Ife. What is interesting is that  ethnic markings most similar to Ife (and other modem Yoruba groups) are found among the Kanuri in this area in a southward moving line through to Ife. Kanuri have a well-documented oral and written tradition in Arabic, but much of their traditional culture has been lost to Islam and the modern records (as in the case of Sultan Bello, the Hausa myths of origins etc) all reflect their conversion to Islam. I'll post photos and links on this stuff (decorative pavements, ethnic markings etc.) and its relationship to Ife when I get home tonight.

Absolutely: http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/menhirs.htm

I don't like to rely on Wikipedia as a source, but this page shouldn't be too controversial. In any case, it's the images that are important:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menhir#History

You'll see that Opa Oranmiyan in many ways is more similar to smooth-sided European monoliths than the angular, pyramidal shapes covered with hieroglyphs found in Egypt. Happy to provide more if you're interested although I think we're starting to get away from Ife and directly related cultures, which are at the center of the discussion.

TC,

When I saw this response I at first thought you are taking this matter for a joke so I began to question if you were truly sensitive and serious about this topic or just here to ridicule. It dawned on me soon after that I had not done a very good job of familiarizing everyone with what Opa Oramiyan stand for. 

I first want to state as a matter of record that what we are sharing on this forum is public information and in a cultural landscape in which Yoruba children - and adults for that matter - are increasingly distanced and insulated from an intimate knowledge and consciousness of our history and journey through the timeline of humanity, we  must be alert and mindful of how far we are taking the liberty of published materials  to push what does not speak to truth.  Authors striving to make a living are not unguilty of pushing dogmas and conspiracies,   Locked between Samuel Johnson, Sultan Bello and Burton, I will believe Johnson before Bello but I will not even look at Burton.  Unfortunately, I am seeing that the truths of Johnson and Bello are being repressed here - as was done before to shield our eyes from their truths - and the motives commissioned through Burton are being heralded as  a reliable platform to stand upon.

It is logical to rule out cultural links between two civilizations in which the articles of their commonnality is random, inconsistent, non-exclusive and cannot withstand tests of elimination. If however, the articles, whether in physical form or sacred arts, posess dynamics of self-truth from one to the other and from the other to the one, then the protocol under which their scrutiny is conducted is itself illogical if it fails in its conclusion to harmonize with that self-evident truth.

It is meaningless for me to clarify the physicality of Opa Oramiyan without sharing with you all an outcome that happened here in NL many months ago.  We were discussing Oduduwa or Lamarudu, I can't quite recall which one and I was trying to convince someone but someone came in and dropped a bombshell.  He said Oramiyan is actually Orion.  I thought to myself Orion is Greek, how could Oramiyan whose fathers originated from AfroAsia be same person as Orion a Greek?  I sent email to three people to join me, if their time permitted, for discussion on Oramiyan vs Orion.  Upto that point I had never known that the semitic letters Ra, Yod were etched into the side of the staff, this was revealed to me during discussion. Then another bombshell, I learnt that the Greek's Orion and the Yoruba's Oramiyan both came from the same root letters Resh and Yod!

So this was the backdrop from which I said Opa Oramiyan has origin in Egyotian consciousness. As far as monoliths and obelisks being common everywhere, there is no contention of that - it is widely distributed, but this Obelisk in Ife is unlike any other in all those places referrenced in the link.  I have continously asked to people who say Yoruba descended from Nok to identify Nok by any other name in its antiquity and none has done that. 

In a summary of Ife/Egypt link, here are the proofs - physical and documented .  I am not including mystical evidences:

1.  Two independent and non-collaborated documentations that accounted for Yoruba origin and migration tracks from AfroAsia to SouthWest Nigeria.

2.  The staff of Oramiyan bearing semitic letters Ra, Yod etched or engraved into it.

3. Unearthed arts of Ife in symmetry , both in form factor and consciousness - with Egyptian arts and relics.

4.  Tradition and customs in rituals, garments and instruments of priesthood.\\


Here is somthing for thought: 

1.  Ife bronze arts have been compared at on the same scale as Greek art.  Is it possible that Greek copied an artwork indigenous to AfroAsians? 

2.  Oramiyan and Orion both came from Ra Yod, an AfroAsian tongue.  Matter of fact, Orion, as a night sky star, is culturally associated with the Babylonian Bronze Age.  Orion's descendants were known as Nephili - giant people.  These were giants inhabiting Canaan.  From Nephili came Arba, the greatest man of the land, who gave birth to Anak.  Could this Anak be "NOK"?

Notice aso the use of Arba denoting giant and ARABA in Yoruba to denote a High Priest or even Araba tree - a tree which is reputably of gigantic dimension.  Is the Canaanite Arba for giants the unintended meaning in the Yoruba's Araba for a giant tree?  How many such accidentals and incidentals does it take to embrace self-evident truths?

In closing, deniers of a link between Ife and Egypt need to open their eyes and gaze directly into the eyes of these arts,  they have a message for the world, they are speaking to you. . . . . they want to be released from the darkness that have shrouded their identity for so many centuries, they want the truth to be told.  You will be their voice.

Negro_Ntns:


TC,

When I saw this response I at first thought you are taking this matter for a joke so I began to question if you were truly sensitive and serious about this topic or just here to ridicule. It dawned on me soon after that I had not done a very good job of familiarizing everyone with what Opa Oramiyan stand for.

I can assure you that the only reason I would ever come on Nairaland is to contribute to a discussion that I think is worth my time. You can easily see the date I joined this site and the topics I contributed to. I've got no interest in the petty ethnic bickering and other silly topics that people are obsessed about here. I don't ask anyone to take me as an authority on this issue but I studied anthropology with a specific focus on the Yoruba and related groups in West Africa and the African diaspora. That's why I'm interested in correcting some of the many mistakes I've seen repeated endlessly here and on other websites. There's a fair consensus among professional scholars on this issue, but non-specialists still rely on myths and legends rather than verifiable facts. As I said, you're free to believe whatever you want but your beliefs cannot be taken as fact. Please feel free to contact any of the historians or anthropologists I've listed (with the exception of the extraordinary Dr. Obayemi, who died some time ago) for verification of what I've said. I'm confident they will tell you the same thing.  

I first want to state as a matter of record that what we are sharing on this forum is public information and in a cultural landscape in which Yoruba children - and adults for that matter - are increasingly distanced and insulated from an intimate knowledge and consciousness of our history and journey through the timeline of humanity, we  must be alert and mindful of how far we are taking the liberty of published materials  to push what does not speak to truth.  Authors striving to make a living are not unguilty of pushing dogmas and conspiracies,   Locked between Samuel Johnson, Sultan Bello and Burton, I will believe Johnson before Bello but I will not even look at Burton.  Unfortunately, I am seeing that the truths of Johnson and Bello are being repressed here - as was done before to shield our eyes from their truths - and the motives commissioned through Burton are being heralded as  a reliable platform to stand upon.

I hope you won't take it as a slight or an insult, but that is why you're not a historian or an anthropologist. Scholars don't have the luxury of ignoring primary sources just because of their biases. They have to analyze them and separate facts from information influenced by other factors. You're also a little confused about the sources of the information you're citing--Reverend Samuel Johnson quotes Hugh Clapperton for all his information on the early history of the Yoruba and their purported link to Canaan. It's on pages 5 and 6 of "History of the Yoruba", which sits on my shelf at home. Hugh Clapperton, in turn, quotes Sultan Bello, who believed Yoruba people were an offshoot of an Arabian monarchic line. There's nothing unusual in that, since Muslim monarchs of the time and up to the present invariably trace their ancestry from their Holy Land. We see the same thing today with many Africans (Nigerians and others) who claim descent from Hebrews, Phoenicians, Egyptians and any other prestigious culture of the ancient world. I can assure you that these debates also go on in the Congo, Ghana, Uganda, Zimbabwe etc. Look up the term "Hamitic Hypothesis" to understand why this was so common during the colonial era--it's too long and complicated for me to summarize here. For Yorubaland, we are fortunate to have several other sources that are either contemporary to or closely follow Hugh Clapperton and Sultan Bello, who gave the first written accounts that were preserved. Reverend Johnson himself had no qualms about citing other sources written by Europeans, by the way--he freely quotes Clapperton, the Landers and even earlier explorers to fill the gaps in our knowledge of the period. That is what scholars do.

I also want to correct one of those long-standing myths I mentioned here. Bello never claimed that the name Yoruba (which was translated from the Hausa "Yarba" was a Hausa word. The Yoruba were not named by the Hausa as many people have claimed, and Sultan Bello made no such claim about the meaning of the word. In fact, Bello makes it clear that the area had many related groups using a variation of this word to describe themselves, including the Yagba, the Okun-Yoruba group near the Niger-Benue confluence who still use that term to describe themselves, and other possibly related groups like the Yauri (Bello spells this "Ya-ory". The relationship to the term "Oyo" should also be clear. In "Abeokuta and the Camaroon Mountains", Richard Burton recorded the local Egba belief that the term "Yoruba" was a corruption of the words "Ori Obba". Several other sources at the time make other claims about the ultimate origins of the term, but none of them claim it was actually a Hausa word. The earliest record of it comes from the Hausa scholars, but they do not claim to be the origin of the word. In the same way, Yoruba is known as the "Anago" language in Benin Republic simply because the Anago were a well-known Yoruba subgroup in the area (related to the Egbado, Ohori and Awori). In Togo, these people are called Ana.

Burton, by the way, was a scholar of language, a diplomat and a soldier who spoke dozens of languages and had traveled all over the known world during the 19th century, from South America through India. Ignoring him would be insane since he is a major primary source for many of the events of the era, outside of Nigeria and even outside Africa.

It is logical to rule out cultural links between two civilizations in which the articles of their commonnality is random, inconsistent, non-exclusive and cannot withstand tests of elimination. If however, the articles, whether in physical form or sacred arts, posess dynamics of self-truth from one to the other and from the other to the one, then the protocol under which their scrutiny is conducted is itself illogical if it fails in its conclusion to harmonize with that self-evident truth.

What does all this mean? An "evident self-truth" sounds a lot like having faith without proof. Reverend Johnson refused to believe Sultan Bello's account that the Yoruba were from Saudi Arabia because it was illogical and coloured by Bello's faith. Instead, Johnson insisted on some Biblical link through Canaan and Nimrod, coupled with the Egyptological craze current in the 19th century (again, see the Hamitic Hypothesis for more). This belief was coloured by Johnson's faith too and has no basis in fact. That is why both hypotheses are rejected by working historians and anthropologists today.

It is meaningless for me to clarify the physicality of Opa Oramiyan without sharing with you all an outcome that happened here in NL many months ago.  We were discussing Oduduwa or Lamarudu, I can't quite recall which one and I was trying to convince someone but someone came in and dropped a bombshell.  He said Oramiyan is actually Orion.  I thought to myself Orion is Greek, how could Oramiyan whose fathers originated from AfroAsia be same person as Orion a Greek?  I sent email to three people to join me, if their time permitted, for discussion on Oramiyan vs Orion.  Upto that point I had never known that the semitic letters Ra, Yod were etched into the side of the staff, this was revealed to me during discussion. Then another bombshell, I learnt that the Greek's Orion and the Yoruba's Oramiyan both came from the same root letters Resh and Yod!

All fascinating claims, but none with any basis in fact. There are no Semitic letters on the side of Opa Oranmiyan. Also, Oranmiyan was not a proper name but a title. Since I'm certain you won't believe me, I'll tell you where to find this information--it's on page 12 of Johnson's "History of the Yoruba".

So this was the backdrop from which I said Opa Oramiyan has origin in Egyotian consciousness. As far as monoliths and obelisks being common everywhere, there is no contention of that - it is widely distributed, but this Obelisk in Ife is unlike any other in all those places referrenced in the link.  I have continously asked to people who say Yoruba descended from Nok to identify Nok by any other name in its antiquity and none has done that.

We have no idea what the Nok called themselves--the name is from the local village where the first finds were made. I've mentioned this earlier. It's interesting that you think Opa Oranmiyan is related to Egyptian obelisks but not to other traditions in West Africa. Have you compared Opa to obelisks and stelae. You'll find a dramatic difference at first glance--Egyptian obelisks are pyramid-shaped, angular and covered with hieroglyphics. Does that describe the Opa at Ife?

In a summary of Ife/Egypt link, here are the proofs - physical and documented .  I am not including mystical evidences:

1.  Two independent and non-collaborated documentations that accounted for Yoruba origin and migration tracks from AfroAsia to SouthWest Nigeria.

This is not true. You've cited Reverend Johnson, who cites Sultan Bello. They were not independent citations and they both refer to religious beliefs, not indpendently-verified histories.

2.  The staff of Oramiyan bearing semitic letters Ra, Yod etched or engraved into it.

This is also not true. The claim is false and I've seen the supposed diagram.

3. Unearthed arts of Ife in symmetry , both in form factor and consciousness - with Egyptian arts and relics.

4.  Tradition and customs in rituals, garments and instruments of priesthood.\\

I've provided my reasons for disagreeing with these claims. I'm sorry to say that the rest of your claims about the Greek relationship to Yoruba art shows me that we have basic disagreements about this topic that won't be productive. Your interest in our shared Yoruba heritage is admirable but I'd suggest you consult some other works, many of them written by Yoruba scholars. Don't take my word for anything I've written here, since this is an anonymous forum.

I'll probably withdraw from this thread now since it's taken up quite a bit of time posting this stuff and I'm not sure if its worth the effort. Thanks for the discussion and I hope you and everyone else interested in the topic take a look at some of the resources I mentioned. Yoruba art and culture represents a civilization sophisticated and accomplished enough to compare to any in the world. It should be a point of pride for all Africans that there's renewed global interest in its origins and production. I don't say this to isolate Yoruba culture from its many relatives, including the Edo, Nupe, Igbo etc. who have equally brilliant and unique cultures to share with the world. This thread was about Ife however, and it's a little perplexing to see that the achievements of Ife are still not celebrated as the products of a specifically Yoruba cultural tradition. Looking for origins in Egypt, Phoenicia, Greece, Altantis etc. was exactly what Froebinius and his peers did 100 years ago, when racism was in vogue. There is a simple answer to the question of who produced this culture--it was the West African Yoruba-speaking people of Ife, not mythical migrants who seem to have left no traces of their prestigious cultures beyond coincidental resemblances and claims based on religious beliefs. [quote][/quote]

Gbam!

Some good stories you have there posters!Nice ones. Keep them coming in.

All the stories and commentaries about Yoruba having any significant ancestral lineage from anywhere outside of Western Africa is far fetched at the least and simply impossible to be frank.

Its simple, a region can NOT influence another if it wasnt even in existence. The South of the Sahara is documented as being the cradle of humanity and thousands of years and scores of civilisations passed before the mass migration to populate the rest of the world ensued; therefore neither Israel nor Mecca could have had any sort of influence on the infancy stages of Ife because of a simple technicality; they were both unpopulated regions during this particular period in time.

The same can be said about NOK (as in that the NOK culture was influenced by Ife and NOT the other way around), the truth is that much of the present Nigerian demography preceeds any human activity coming out of either Europe or Asia land mass for the simple reason that we were responsible for its population due migration and mutation(sic)[whichever came first]

emmatok:
Some words in the Yoruban vocabulary echo the words used in Egypt in predynastic times and in the early dynastic periods. Some Egyptian gods of this period have strong identities with Yoruban deities. For instance, gods such as Adumu (Adumu) Hepi (Ipi) Ausar (Ausa), Horise (Orise), and Sámi (Sámi) Nam (Inama) are present in Yoruba. All these gods existed in the pre-dynastic and early dynastic periods of Egypt. TODAY, AMONG THE ITSEKIRI-YORUBAS ,THESE GODS CAN STILL BE PHYSICALLY SEEN, AT LEAST, ONCE A YEAR! Neighbouring peoples are already initiated into the various gods systems and beliefs in yorubaland.the agban ancestral worship was first organized in Urhoboland during the funeral ceremony of chief Ayomanor of Sapele (1949). The Ipi system was first organized in Urhoboland in March 11, 2005,


EGYPT YORUBA
1. Wu (rise) Wu (rise)
2. Ausa (Osiris, father of the gods) Ausa (father)
3. Ere (python/ Serpent) Ere (Python / Serpent)
4. Horise (a great god) Orise (a great god)
5. Sen (group of worshippers) Sen ( to worship)
6. Ged (to chant0 Igede (a chant)
7. Ta (sell / offer) Ta (sell/offer)
8. Sueg (a fool) Suegbe (a fool)
9. On ( living person) One ( living person)
10. Kum (a club) Kumo( a club)
11. Enru (fear / terrible) Eru (fear / terrible
12. Kun / qun (brave man) Ekun (title of a brave man)
13. Win (to be) Wino (to be)
14. Odonit (festival) Odon (festival)
15. Ma or mi (to breath) Mi. (to breathe)
16. Tebu (a town) Tebu (a town)
17. Adumu (a water god) Adumu (a water god)
18. Khu (to kill) Ku (die)
19. Rekha (knowledge} Larikha (knowledge)
20 Hika (evil) Ika (evil)
21 Mhebi (humble) Mebi, humble to ones family
22 Sata (perfect) Santan (perfect)
23 Unas (lake of fire) Una (fire)
24 Tan (complete) Tan (complete)
25 Beru (force of emotion) Beru (fear)
26 Em (smell) Emi (smell)
27 Pa (open) Pa (break open)
28 Bi (to become) Bi (to give birth, to become)
29 Hepi (a water god) Ipi (a water god)
30 Sami (water god) Sami (a water god)
31 Osiri (a water god) Oshiri (a water god)
32 Heqet – Re (frog deity) Ekere (the frog)
33 Feh (to go away) Feh (to blow away)
34 Kot (build) Ko (build)
35 Kot (boat) Oko (boat)
36 Omi (water) Omi (water)
37 Ra (time) Ira (time)
38 Oni (title of Osiris) Oni (title of the king of Ife)
39 Budo (dwelling place) Budo (dwelling place)
40 Dudu (black image of Osiris) Dudu (black person)
41 Un (living person) Una (living person)
42 Ra (possess) Ra (possess/buy)
43 Beka (pray/confess) Be or ka (to pray or confess)
44 Po (many) Po (many/cheap)
45 Horuw (head) middle Egyptian Oruwo (head) (Ijebu)
46 Min (a god) Emin (spirit)
47 Ash (invocation) Ashe (invocation)
48 Aru (mouth) Arun (mouth ) Ilaje
49 Do (river) Odo (river)
50 Do (settlement) Udo (settlement)
51 Shekiri (water god) Shekiri (a water god)
52 Bu (a place) Bu ,a place
53 Khepara (beetle Akpakara (beetle)
54 No (a water god Eno (a water god)
55 Ra -Shu (light after darkness Uran-shu (the light of the moon
56 Run-ka (spirit name) Oruko (name)
57 Deb/dib to pierce Dibi (to pierce)
58 Maat (goddess of justice Mate (goddess of justice)
59 Aru (rise) Ru (rise up)
60 Fa (carry) Fa (pull)
61 Kaf (pluck) Ka (pluck)
62 Bu bi (evil place) Bubi (evil place)
63 In- n (negation In-n (negation)
64 Iset (a water god) Ise (a water god)
65 Shabu (watcher) Ashonbo (watcher)
66 Semati (door keeper) Sema (lock/shut the door)
67 Khenti amenti (big words of Osiris Yenti – yenti (big, very big)
68 Ma (to know) Ma (to know)
69 Bebi, a son of osiris) Ube, a god
70 Tchatcha chief (they examined the death to see if they tricked tsatsa (a game of tricks, gambling )
71 Ren( animal foot) Ren (to walk)
72 Ka (rest) Ka (rest/tired)
73 Mu (water) Mu (drink water)
74 Abi (against) Ubi (against / impediment)
75 Reti (to beseech) Retin (to listen)
76 Hir (praise) Yiri (praise)
77 Ta(spread out) Ta (spread out)
78 Kurud (round) Kurudu (round)
79 Ak – male Ako (male)
80 Se – to create Se (to create)
81 Hoo (rejoice) Yo (rejoice)
82 Kamwr (black) Kuru (extremely black
83 Omitjener (deep water) Omijen (deep water)
84 Nen, the primeval water mother) Nene (mother
85 Ta (land) Ita (land junction)
86 Horiwo (head) Oriwo (head)
87 Ro (talk) Ro (to think)
88 Kurubu (round) Kurubu (deep and round)
89 Penka (divide) Kpen (divide)
90 Ma-su (to mould) Ma or su (to mould)
91 Osa (time) Osa (time)
92 Osa (tide) Osa ( tide)
93 Fare (wrap) Fari (wrap)
94 Kom (complete) Kon (complete)
95 Edjo (cobra) Edjo (cobra)
96 Didi (red fruit) Diden (red)
97 Ba (soul) Oba (king) soul of a people
98 Ke (hill) Oke( hill
99 Anubis (evil deity) Onubi (evil person)
100 Kan (one: Middle Egyptian) Okan one)
101 Nam (water god) Inama (water god)

The words above are used to show that most Yoruban words are identical to the ancient Egyptian

http://www.raceandhistory.com/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl/noframes/read/2139

All the evidence shows that civilisation moved up the Nile and NOT downwards, this is to say that Egypt didnt influence Ife; however, Ife were amongst the many major South of Sahara civilisations that was to provide substantive influence on Ancient Egypt.

Amujale:

All the stories and commentaries about Yoruba having any significant ancestral lineage from anywhere outside of Western Africa is far fetched at the least and simply impossible to be frank.

Its simple, a region can NOT influence another if it wasnt even in existence. Sub-sahara Africa is documented as being the cradle of humanity and thousands of years and scores of civilisations passed before the mass migration to populate the rest of the world ensued; therefore neither Israel nor Mecca could have had any sort of influence on the infancy stages of Ife because of a simple technicality; they were both unpopulated regions during this particular period in time.

The same can be said about NOK (as in that the NOK culture was influenced by Ife and NOT the other way around), the truth is that much of the present Nigerian demography preceeds any human activity coming out of either Europe or Asia land mass for the simple reason that we were responsible for its population due migration and mutation(sic)[whichever came first]

All the evidence shows that civilisation moved up the Nile and NOT downwards, this is to say that Egypt didnt influence Ife; however, Ife were amongst the many major sub-sahara civilisations that was to provide substantive influence on Ancient Egypt. 

Dont every use the word sub sahara. Use South of Sahara or west Africa instead. We should stop all this nonsense, Yoruba is an Africa Civilization, we're not proto semetic stop it already. Semetic is not a good thing.