Physics,

First and foremost, I am told by grapevine that you are a Bini prince. Is this true?

Oba Ewuakpe had already established the principle of primogeniture (the first son takes the throne) as a more firm rule (it wasn't necessarily adhered to before), so the fact that Akenzua would succeed his father Oba Ewuakpe was a done deal, but the Iyase a) had a strong dislike of the (then prince) Akenzua because of a personal insult or dispute between the two (from Egharevba's account) and/or b) was related to Ozuere's mother (from R.E. Bradbury's summary of Ezomo Omoruyi's account in 1950s), so the Iyase and some other leaders schemed to place Ozuere on the throne. After Ozuere usurped the throne and ruled briefly, Akenzua was later able to force both of them out of Benin with the assistance of the future Ezomo, Ehenua, and was able to take his righful place on the throne. Although hostilities and fighting still continued between Akenzua and the Iyase's faction for a significant time afterward, Akenzua and the Ezomo finally triumphed later.

Interesting account. . . . .this is an exact mirror of similar incident between Akitoye and Kosoko in Lagos. Akitoye was not the chosen but because the Eletu Edibo, leading the council of kingmakers, had personal vendetta with Kosoko, selected and forced Akitoye to the throne. It later erupted into a feud which has become history.

Anyway, Akin____ as a general rule of thumb in all Yoruba speaking tongues is braveheart. It could also occur in the format ____Akin__, example: Mor[b]akin[/b]yo. I am not closed to new knoewledge, so if you say that's what Akin means in Bini, then I will accept it.


On the topic of Ife roots, unless Nok is known by ay other name which is known to be local to AfroAsia, I disagree with all accounts of the interlink between the two. I will concede that Nok was birthed by Ife, but not the other way around. There is a strong reason why I say this and is supported in many ways by independent accounts and circumstances of events.

1. Yoruba language at the time of Old Oyo - which far predated arrival of Europeans, Islam and Christianity - was Old Hebrew. It was an ancient semitic language which is also the common root of modern Hebrew and Arabic; and although the historical source of these currents are far removed from one another the sound indeed correspond.

2. Yoruba nation is a commonwealth of independent states and tribes who in antiquity were extracts from the various lands of AfroAsia. Migration was a coalescing force that banded them together and in their settlement in Nigeria, it also became the commonality in consciousness, from which they became collocators in destiny and Nationality under the reign of Ife.

3. Samuel Johnson's book on the rootsof Yorubas was suppressed and the original was never published. Likewise, a third and independent account supporting Samuel Johnson's chronicle, authored and circulated by Sultan Bello of Sokoto Caliphate, was discovered by Clapperton, a British explorer who in his journals made a brief reference to the Yoruba history and whereupon the full works by Bello that details the tracks of migration was then taken out of circulation and erased from historica libraries and repositories.


If anyone does not believe in 1 or in 2, at least your conscience must cause to wonder why the two accounts were destroyed or taken out of public hands. What is it in these books that Europeans do not want the world to know about Yorubas? Are they the old Phoenicians (Canaanites)? Are they the people of Queen Bilkis of Yemen? Are they the people of Axum and Sudan? If anything is worth a scholastic inquiry and research, #3 definitely has earned that merit.

the full works by Bello that details the tracks of migration

hmm.

well, gaddafi who made reference to some such, is no more.

though i dont see why it's that important, really. I mean to warrant such measures. West africa was too decimated by the slave trade for these things to have the kind of big impact people are thinking.

just my opinion and of course i could be wrong.

I am told by grapevine that you are a Bini prince.

dont princes and princesses make up like about 1/4 of the nigerian population of 150 million?

I'm posting on a cellphone so forgive any odd breaks and the lack of more supporting links. I'm more than happy to discuss this topic (West African historical ethnography, specifically what's called the Niger River Basin including modern Nigeria) in much more detail but Nairaland isn't really the best venue for a serious discussion. Hope that doesn't come across as condescending--it's just an observation based on the tone people use here. Since we're all busy people, I want to be clear that I can only e part of civil discussions, not insults and ignorance.

That being said--Negro_Ntns: you've made a spirited defense of your position on Yorubas as Old Hebrew/AfroAsian (as in the Afrasian language family? I'm not clear on what you mean). My earlier point was that there is no direct evidence to link ancient Egyptian and classical Yoruba or Edo cultures. The cultures are separated by a gulf of time (the current site of Ile-Ife was a collection of hamlets when Egypt was overrun by Assyrians and much of its native impressive culture abandoned). What followed were centuries of Greek and later Roman rule. This is an important point because if we link the rise of Ife around 500 AD to Egyptian influence, we will basically be agreeing with the racist historians and anthropologists who thought Greeks, Romans and sundry mythic Atlanteans were responsible for the refined works of art produced by that culture. I don't believe that and neither should you.

Physics: In my last point, I said there's no direct evidence pointing to a link between Egypt and Ife/Benin etc. There is indirect evidence, which would be the Nok linkage mentioned in Physics' posts. What's interesting is that alongside the artistic similarities between the two, the dates of Nubian ascension and restoration of classical Egyptian forms matches up to the rise of 'Nok' (we don't know what they actually called themselves)--that is, around 800-700 BC, there were major events in Egypt that could have led to migrations southward.

My problems with these possibilities, interesting as they are, are simple.

A) While Nok artworks show some affinities with Egyptian ones, there's also a lot of variance. The stylized eyes and postures of Nok pieces are different from Egyptian conventions, so superficial similarities can't tell the while story.

B) There's no evidence of Egypt's most distinctive artwork and cultural achievements--the pyramid tombs, mummification of the dead and the keeping of hieroglyph records. If these people were Egyptians or Egyptian-influenced, they weren't very faithful to the core of their culture.

There's also the common sense issue I mentioned. Egyptians were desert-dwelling people. Why did they leave Libya, Morocco, Chad, Niger etc untouched to plant themselves solely in southern and western Nigeria? This seems more like speculation and less like anything supported by the historical and anthropological record. I don't discount the possibility and it's an appealing thought, since I believe Egypt was an African civilization. There's simply very little current evidence, other than the circumstantial.

Negro-Ntns: Again, I believe you should be free to believe anything you wish. As Physics points out, linguists don't believe Yoruba and the languages spoken around the Nile Valley are linked. Interestingly enough, Hausa belongs to what was called the Nilo-Saharan group. I'm not sure how you know the language spoken at Old Oyo was Old Hebrew; every single reference I've ever read to it pointed to the language being very similar to current Yoruba, which is not similar to either old or current Hebrew. Again, I fully accept that I'm not all-knowing so please free to correct this with any info you have. I'd also add that I don't think it's good form to tell someone the meaning of words in their native language if you don't speak it. "Aken" is not a Yoruba word, so I don't think it's helpful to interprete it in Yoruba. It's through similar tortured 'interpretations' that we have people claiming that 'Oduduwa/Odua' have particular meanings in their language which have little or nothing to do with the Yoruba understanding.

A few more points--

A) How many people know that the word 'birnin' means 'walled city' in Hausa? That's a far more likely etymology for Benin than the various ones you may have read on the Internet or in outdated books. Just a thought.

B) Nupe is thought to have been mentioned as an extremely powerful city in the area of the Niger by the Arab traveler Ibn-Battuta in the mid-1300s. However, the actual reference he wrote is to a place called 'Yufi'. This could well be interpreted as Nupe (which is sometimes pronounced 'Nufe' or spelled 'Nyffe'). It could also just as easily be a reference to Ife, which as any native of Osun state will tell you, is properly called 'Ufe' in Ife or Ijesa dialect of Yoruba. Interestingly enough again, one of the finest pieces of Ife bronze art was found in the Nupe village of Tada. There's also a Nupe man on the Internet who claims that Nupe is the origin of all southern Nigerian ethnic groups (he seems to have a special interest in Yoruba though). Again, he doesn't seem to have any training or interest in established scholarship (he claims he's a medical doctor), which shows the danger of Internet speculations, I hope. I'll add the link later but more food for thought. In either case, the Nupe are still great brass casters and bead makers (the two great industries of Ile-Ife which made it a source of the prestigious materials needed for court rituals and kingship initiation). More food for thought.

I'll add more when I get a chance later.

Had to log in on a desktop, which I don't like to do but I thought it would be helpful.

Here's the link to the Nupe speculation: http://drndagiabdullahi.tripod.com/id61.html

Again, it's easy to guess and make all sorts of claims which is why wild guesswork that's not supported by written records or archeological work should be avoided.

Also: Physics--a slight correction to my citation earlier of Hugh Clapperton as the first written source of the Oyo myth of origin. It was actually Richard Lander, who was Clapperton's assistant and who (with his brother) wrote a second journal on traveling through the area after Clapperton died.

One last thing--I'm going to make a special post on the Oduduwa myths that will talk about Sultan Bello, the pros and cons of Rev. Johnson's excellent 'History of the Yorubas' (which is the foundation for most histories produced by native-born Yorubas) and the many other 'Iwe Itans' or native Yoruba oral histories written and published in the early 20th century. I'll also talk about the neglected and little-read 19th century sources like Richard Burton, TJ Bowen, the CMS missionaries, Campbell etc and why they're indispensable in understanding our shared history.

he seems to have a special interest in Yoruba though

and who doesnt?

I'm posting on a cellphone so forgive any odd breaks and the lack of more supporting links. I'm more than happy to discuss this topic (West African historical ethnography, specifically what's called the Niger River Basin including modern Nigeria) in much more detail but Nairaland isn't really the best venue for a serious discussion. Hope that doesn't come across as condescending--it's just an observation based on the tone people use here. Since we're all busy people, I want to be clear that I can only e part of civil discussions, not insults and ignorance.

Some people ignore the the tones and wade across to get to the knowledge they need. For some, this may be the closest they can get and the most accessible medium.

My earlier point was that there is no direct evidence to link ancient Egyptian and classical Yoruba or Edo cultures. The cultures are separated by a gulf of time (the current site of Ile-Ife was a collection of hamlets when Egypt was overrun by Assyrians and much of its native impressive culture abandoned). What followed were centuries of Greek and later Roman rule. This is an important point because if we link the rise of Ife around 500 AD to Egyptian influence, we will basically be agreeing with the racist historians and anthropologists who thought Greeks, Romans and sundry mythic Atlanteans were responsible for the refined works of art produced by that culture. I don't believe that and neither should you.

Oral tradition among the Yoruba makes mention of a flood, the extent of which may be another question. An effect of the flood may have been a considerable gap in the occupation of Yoruba and Nok territories and I have yet to come across any evidence of the presence of the Yoruba and Edo  peoples here in Nigeria prior to 500 AD. Who knows, perhaps after leaving captivity in Assyria they migrated to the area around (Wadi)Sudan/Abyssinia and then came to West Africa after heightened military activities in Wadi.

i guess there's no need to mention the arab conquest of the middle east when looking for missing links mentioning yoruba or nigerian culture?


no people were pushed southwards?

“The Yoruba history begins with the migration of an east African population across the trans-African route leading from Mid-Nile river area to the Mid-Niger. Archaeologists, according to M. Omoleya, inform us that the Nigerian region was inhabited more than forty thousand years ago, or as far back as 65,000BC. During this period, the Nok culture occupied the region. The Nok culture was visited by the “Yoruba people”, between 2000BC and 500BC. This group of people was led, according to Yoruba historical accounts by king Oduduwa, who settled peacefully in the already established Ile-Ife, the sacred city of the indigenous Nok people.

This time period is known as the Bronze Age, a time of high civilization of both of these groups. According to Olumide J. Lucas, “the Yoruba, during antiquity, lived in ancient Egypt before migrating to the Atlantic coast”. He uses as demonstration the similarity or identity of languages, religious beliefs, customs and names of persons, places and things. In addition, many ancient papyri discovered by archaeologists point at an Egyptian origin. (Tariqh Sawandi: Yorubic medicine: The Art of divine herbology – online article).

Ademoyega commented that the Ekiti section of the Yorubas must have migrated to their present area around 638AD when the Muslims took over Egypt and forced some of the Yoruba people to migrate to their present area.

So, we see that the Yoruba did not come in one migration, but in many different migrations – in waves. The first possible migration might be connected with the Hyksos invasion. Some words in the Yoruban vocabulary echo the words used in Egypt in predynastic times and in the early dynastic periods. Some Egyptian gods of this period have strong identities with Yoruban deities. For instance, gods such as Adumu (Adumu) Hepi (Ipi) Ausar (Ausa), Horise (Orise), and Sámi (Sámi) Nam (Inama) are present in Yoruba. All these gods existed in the pre-dynastic and early dynastic periods of Egypt. TODAY, AMONG THE ITSEKIRI-YORUBAS ,THESE GODS CAN STILL BE PHYSICALLY SEEN, AT LEAST, ONCE A YEAR! Neighbouring peoples are already initiated into the various gods systems and beliefs in yorubaland.the agban ancestral worship was first organized in Urhoboland during the funeral ceremony of chief Ayomanor of Sapele (1949). The Ipi system was first organized in Urhoboland in March 11, 2005,


EGYPT YORUBA
1. Wu (rise) Wu (rise)
2. Ausa (Osiris, father of the gods) Ausa (father)
3. Ere (python/ Serpent) Ere (Python / Serpent)
4. Horise (a great god) Orise (a great god)
5. Sen (group of worshippers) Sen ( to worship)
6. Ged (to chant0 Igede (a chant)
7. Ta (sell / offer) Ta (sell/offer)
8. Sueg (a fool) Suegbe (a fool)
9. On ( living person) One ( living person)
10. Kum (a club) Kumo( a club)
11. Enru (fear / terrible) Eru (fear / terrible
12. Kun / qun (brave man) Ekun (title of a brave man)
13. Win (to be) Wino (to be)
14. Odonit (festival) Odon (festival)
15. Ma or mi (to breath) Mi. (to breathe)
16. Tebu (a town) Tebu (a town)
17. Adumu (a water god) Adumu (a water god)
18. Khu (to kill) Ku (die)
19. Rekha (knowledge} Larikha (knowledge)
20 Hika (evil) Ika (evil)
21 Mhebi (humble) Mebi, humble to ones family
22 Sata (perfect) Santan (perfect)
23 Unas (lake of fire) Una (fire)
24 Tan (complete) Tan (complete)
25 Beru (force of emotion) Beru (fear)
26 Em (smell) Emi (smell)
27 Pa (open) Pa (break open)
28 Bi (to become) Bi (to give birth, to become)
29 Hepi (a water god) Ipi (a water god)
30 Sami (water god) Sami (a water god)
31 Osiri (a water god) Oshiri (a water god)
32 Heqet – Re (frog deity) Ekere (the frog)
33 Feh (to go away) Feh (to blow away)
34 Kot (build) Ko (build)
35 Kot (boat) Oko (boat)
36 Omi (water) Omi (water)
37 Ra (time) Ira (time)
38 Oni (title of Osiris) Oni (title of the king of Ife)
39 Budo (dwelling place) Budo (dwelling place)
40 Dudu (black image of Osiris) Dudu (black person)
41 Un (living person) Una (living person)
42 Ra (possess) Ra (possess/buy)
43 Beka (pray/confess) Be or ka (to pray or confess)
44 Po (many) Po (many/cheap)
45 Horuw (head) middle Egyptian Oruwo (head) (Ijebu)
46 Min (a god) Emin (spirit)
47 Ash (invocation) Ashe (invocation)
48 Aru (mouth) Arun (mouth ) Ilaje
49 Do (river) Odo (river)
50 Do (settlement) Udo (settlement)
51 Shekiri (water god) Shekiri (a water god)
52 Bu (a place) Bu ,a place
53 Khepara (beetle Akpakara (beetle)
54 No (a water god Eno (a water god)
55 Ra -Shu (light after darkness Uran-shu (the light of the moon
56 Run-ka (spirit name) Oruko (name)
57 Deb/dib to pierce Dibi (to pierce)
58 Maat (goddess of justice Mate (goddess of justice)
59 Aru (rise) Ru (rise up)
60 Fa (carry) Fa (pull)
61 Kaf (pluck) Ka (pluck)
62 Bu bi (evil place) Bubi (evil place)
63 In- n (negation In-n (negation)
64 Iset (a water god) Ise (a water god)
65 Shabu (watcher) Ashonbo (watcher)
66 Semati (door keeper) Sema (lock/shut the door)
67 Khenti amenti (big words of Osiris Yenti – yenti (big, very big)
68 Ma (to know) Ma (to know)
69 Bebi, a son of osiris) Ube, a god
70 Tchatcha chief (they examined the death to see if they tricked tsatsa (a game of tricks, gambling )
71 Ren( animal foot) Ren (to walk)
72 Ka (rest) Ka (rest/tired)
73 Mu (water) Mu (drink water)
74 Abi (against) Ubi (against / impediment)
75 Reti (to beseech) Retin (to listen)
76 Hir (praise) Yiri (praise)
77 Ta(spread out) Ta (spread out)
78 Kurud (round) Kurudu (round)
79 Ak – male Ako (male)
80 Se – to create Se (to create)
81 Hoo (rejoice) Yo (rejoice)
82 Kamwr (black) Kuru (extremely black
83 Omitjener (deep water) Omijen (deep water)
84 Nen, the primeval water mother) Nene (mother
85 Ta (land) Ita (land junction)
86 Horiwo (head) Oriwo (head)
87 Ro (talk) Ro (to think)
88 Kurubu (round) Kurubu (deep and round)
89 Penka (divide) Kpen (divide)
90 Ma-su (to mould) Ma or su (to mould)
91 Osa (time) Osa (time)
92 Osa (tide) Osa ( tide)
93 Fare (wrap) Fari (wrap)
94 Kom (complete) Kon (complete)
95 Edjo (cobra) Edjo (cobra)
96 Didi (red fruit) Diden (red)
97 Ba (soul) Oba (king) soul of a people
98 Ke (hill) Oke( hill
99 Anubis (evil deity) Onubi (evil person)
100 Kan (one: Middle Egyptian) Okan one)
101 Nam (water god) Inama (water god)

The words above are used to show that most Yoruban words are identical to the ancient Egyptian

http://www.raceandhistory.com/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl/noframes/read/2139

Perhaps the present inhabitants of Nok are not the original inhabitants but settlers who met the place empty. Also, note that the Fulani Jihad resulted in people migrating from their homes to high places and mountainous regions in Nigeria so their stories may be worth looking at.

Lake Chad used to be much larger, perhaps large enough to have been considered as a sea. The Sahara used to be wetter and with (longer)rivers, likewise Egypt. The implication is that movement across the Sahara/Sudan would have been much easier then with boats - remember the Dufuna canoe.

Didn't the Greeks/Romans/British/Spanish/Portuguese/Arabs try to wipe out our history?

Is this worth considering for Ijebu migration, though no sources are cited?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobalufon

Baal is said to be a Canaanite word that is translated as Lord. In the Yoruba language there is a title known as Baalẹ held by men which means father of the land as it is derived from baba ilẹ - baba is Yoruba for father while ilẹ is land/ground/earth. As baalẹ is linguistically equivalent to baal it is reasonable to accept that lord means father of the land.
The baalẹ is the head of a Yoruba community where there is no Oba (king) but is not the king as he has no crown and is thus of a lower rank.

This translation of baalẹ would be nonsense though if it is actually derived from Oba ilẹ.

amor4ce:



PAST OONIS OF IFE

2ND OSANGANGAN OBAMAKIN

wot does this name mean in yoruba? this sounds edoid to me.

more like a corruption of osanaga obamekhin

meaning

osanaga -- the god to serve
obamekhin -- i am the king

so it would be nice to know the yoruba meaning.

My earlier point was that there is no direct evidence to link ancient Egyptian and classical Yoruba or Edo cultures. The cultures are separated by a gulf of time (the current site of Ile-Ife was a collection of hamlets when Egypt was overrun by Assyrians and much of its native impressive culture abandoned). What followed were centuries of Greek and later Roman rule. This is an important point because if we link the rise of Ife around 500 AD to Egyptian influence, we will basically be agreeing with the racist historians and anthropologists who thought Greeks, Romans and sundry mythic Atlanteans were responsible for the refined works of art produced by that culture. I don't believe that and neither should you.

I think by evidence here you mean physical hard evidence of relational link between the two. Will a non-physical value as for instance in consciousness serve as a satisfactory proof of inter-relational existence?

Pertaining the timeline and age of Ife ascension to be in synch with, or immediately succeeding, the Grecko-Roman occupation of Egypt, yes you are correct, I do not believe that as a possibility.  This is easily resolved for me because I take these arbitrary dating of sub-saharan civilizations with a pinch of salt.  The same people who denied our civility could not also be the authority for dating our evolution.

Physics: In my last point, I said there's no direct evidence pointing to a link between Egypt and Ife/Benin etc. There is indirect evidence, which would be the Nok linkage mentioned in Physics' posts. What's interesting is that alongside the artistic similarities between the two, the dates of Nubian ascension and restoration of classical Egyptian forms matches up to the rise of 'Nok' (we don't know what they actually called themselves)--that is, around 800-700 BC, there were major events in Egypt that could have led to migrations southward.

My problems with these possibilities, interesting as they are, are simple.

A) While Nok artworks show some affinities with Egyptian ones, there's also a lot of variance. The stylized eyes and postures of Nok pieces are different from Egyptian conventions, so superficial similarities can't tell the while story.

B) There's no evidence of Egypt's most distinctive artwork and cultural achievements--the pyramid tombs, mummification of the dead and the keeping of hieroglyph records. If these people were Egyptians or Egyptian-influenced, they weren't very faithful to the core of their culture.

I second this interest - are there other names or identities for Nok that can serve as a universal marker of recognition.  For example, if they were the Old Axumites for instance, then it makes sense to remotely link Ife to their civilization.

There's also the common sense issue I mentioned. Egyptians were desert-dwelling people. Why did they leave Libya, Morocco, Chad, Niger etc untouched to plant themselves solely in southern and western Nigeria? This seems more like speculation and less like anything supported by the historical and anthropological record. I don't discount the possibility and it's an appealing thought, since I believe Egypt was an African civilization. There's simply very little current evidence, other than the circumstantial.

I responded with another question to this in a previous post but if the African-American scenario was not sufficient, here is another example:  Before England and France came to West Africa, Portugal was already here and been in inter-cultural exchange and trading.  Before them the Phoenicians, the first cartographers, had been in West Africa.  The capital of Old Egypt was in Djebe which is on the same latitudinal belt with Old Mali and Old Mauritania, trades and caravan routes for spice, dye, leather, crafts, arts, . . . .were already alive and well between the Old capital of Egypt, the seat of the Paharaohs and other Old civilizations of the Sahara and sub-Sahara. So it was not a totally unfamiliar territory or terrain for them.  Using your analogy, we must ask why did the Dutch lept over so many countries and settled foot and authority in Zululand, a totally strange and unfamiliar territory and people?

Negro-Ntns: Again, I believe you should be free to believe anything you wish. As Physics points out, linguists don't believe Yoruba and the languages spoken around the Nile Valley are linked. Interestingly enough, Hausa belongs to what was called the Nilo-Saharan group. I'm not sure how you know the language spoken at Old Oyo was Old Hebrew; every single reference I've ever read to it pointed to the language being very similar to current Yoruba, which is not similar to either old or current Hebrew. Again, I fully accept that I'm not all-knowing so please free to correct this with any info you have. I'd also add that I don't think it's good form to tell someone the meaning of words in their native language if you don't speak it. "Aken" is not a Yoruba word, so I don't think it's helpful to interprete it in Yoruba. It's through similar tortured 'interpretations' that we have people claiming that 'Oduduwa/Odua' have particular meanings in their language which have little or nothing to do with the Yoruba understanding.

It is very unfortunate indeed that we have moved away from sound and tonal  language to latin alphabet and text language.  I will provide the needed support to this later or I can send you a link to a document.  There are certain things in this document that dont eed to be on NL given the current state of tribal competition and envy at the local level.


[QUOTE]A few more points--

A) How many people know that the word 'birnin' means 'walled city' in Hausa? That's a far more likely etymology for Benin than the various ones you may have read on the Internet or in outdated books. Just a thought.

B) Nupe is thought to have been mentioned as an extremely powerful city in the area of the Niger by the Arab traveler Ibn-Battuta in the mid-1300s. However, the actual reference he wrote is to a place called 'Yufi'. This could well be interpreted as Nupe (which is sometimes pronounced 'Nufe' or spelled 'Nyffe'). It could also just as easily be a reference to Ife, which as any native of Osun state will tell you, is properly called 'Ufe' in Ife or Ijesa dialect of Yoruba. Interestingly enough again, one of the finest pieces of Ife bronze art was found in the Nupe village of Tada. There's also a Nupe man on the Internet who claims that Nupe is the origin of all southern Nigerian ethnic groups (he seems to have a special interest in Yoruba though). Again, he doesn't seem to have any training or interest in established scholarship (he claims he's a medical doctor), which shows the danger of Internet speculations, I hope. I'll add the link later but more food for thought. In either case, the Nupe are still great brass casters and bead makers (the two great industries of Ile-Ife which made it a source of the prestigious materials needed for court rituals and kingship initiation). More food for thought.[/QUOTE]

Nupe and Yoruba are inextricably interwoven.  Nupe wthemselves are not indigenous to the land they are on.

Yoruba history has to be considered chronologically in order to get a clearer picture that can cover the missing gaps.

And no, this isnt an invitation to other tribes to start jumping in with all kinds of imaginary fables.

What were the effects of the centuries long crusades on subsaharan africa, for example. Europeans reached northern africa at this time and there was much interaction between them and the middle east.

What was the impact of the dark ages on black africa?

Just a few questions.

In addition, what happened to the artists and guilds who made these sculptures?

Were they enslaved, killed or exiled to other places where they did not practice their skills. That would be hard but maybe its possible since most of the scultpure is linked to the royal court and also ceremonial rituals. So if there was war which seriously destablished the known order of things, the artists would be without a base to practice their skills.

Just guessing here.

tpia@:

In addition, what happened to the artists and guilds who made these sculptures?

Were they enslaved, killed or exiled to other places where they did not practice their skills. That would be hard but maybe its possible since most of the scultpure is linked to the royal court and also ceremonial rituals. So if there was war which seriously destablished the known order of things, the artists would be without a base to practice their skills.

Just guessing here.

Mrs Tpia, artist who made this were not enslaved or killed. They probably change their style for the "Gods" and after life sake.

They were probably inspired by some native people who they trade with  Just like Shango, he was not our original thunder god. He replaced the old thunder god.

How is Shango a god? Was the old thunder god banished or sent to some kind of old people's or god's home?

amor4ce:

How is Shango a god? Was the old thunder god banished or sent to some kind of old people's or god's home?

Shango replace the old thunder god. nothing more is had from the old thunder god.

because the idea of a thunder god was a figment of imagination that arose out of the desire of some people to worship something they thought they could physically touch and see? Did Olodumare ever say that Sango should be worshiped as a god or was it an imposed tradition of men? An imposed and fictitious tradition that has resulted many in dark-skinned peoples being soiled in vomit (slavery, confused oral history, lack of knowledge and restraint)?

amor4ce:

because the idea of a thunder god was a figment of imagination that arose out of the desire of some people to worship something they thought they could physically touch and see? Did Olodumare ever say that Sango should be worshiped as a god or was it an imposed tradition of men? An imposed and fictitious tradition that has resulted many in dark-skinned peoples being soiled in vomit (slavery, confused oral history, lack of knowledge and restraint)?

What are you trying to say? That dark skin people are stvpid for beliving in many gods?

amor4ce:

because the idea of a thunder god was a figment of imagination that arose out of the desire of some people to worship something they thought they could physically touch and see? Did Olodumare ever say that Sango should be worshiped as a god or was it an imposed tradition of men? An imposed and fictitious tradition that has resulted many in dark-skinned peoples being soiled in vomit (slavery, confused oral history, lack of knowledge and restraint)?

Btw, Olodumare is not a god. Olodumare is everything, everything is Olodumare you probably meant Olorun.

Rgp92:

What are you trying to say? That dark skin people are stvpid for beliving in many gods?

Aren't you a god? If so why then should you worship your ancestors if they were like you?

As for Nok, compare the hairstyles of the images below:

Nok terracotta


2 Ga-Adangbe men dancing

No, im not a God!

amor4ce:

Aren't you a god? If so why then should you worship your ancestors if they were like you?

As for Nok, compare the hairstyles of the images below:

Nok terracotta


2 Ga-Adangbe men dancing

could you explain yourself better please? :/

Look at the hairstyles of the 2 men dancing in the picture and compare with that of the Nok figurine. They look exactly similar.

Rgp92:

No, im not a God!
could you explain yourself better please? :/

I didn't say you are GOD. Weren't you and I created to be sons of GOD? What does Orunmila's oriki say about the orisha (saints)? For us to move forward we have to do away with hagiolatory. Where was it ever mentioned that Our Maker instructed us to engage in hagiolatory?

exotik:

wot does this name mean in yoruba? this sounds edoid to me.

more like a corruption of osanaga obamekhin

meaning

osanaga -- the god to serve
obamekhin -- i am the king

so it would be nice to know the yoruba meaning.

Won't anyone respond to exotik's contribution?

amor4ce:

I didn't say you are GOD. Weren't you and I created to be sons of GOD? What does Orunmila's oriki say about the orisha (saints)? For us to move forward we have to do away with hagiolatory. Where was it ever mentioned that Our Maker instructed us to engage in hagiolatory?
Won't anyone respond to exotik's contribution?

I still dont get you :/ Are you by any chance trying to say Ifa is bad and Christianity is good?

I didn't say that Ifa is bad. My opinion is that many who claim to be experts have tried to pollute it with hagiolatory. Note that some Ifa verses make mention of "heavenly knights of doom" being sent to earth sometime past to kill false diviners, including those who divined lies and used erroneous divination methods. Weren't such diviners teaching as tradition the doctrines of men? GOD is good, as the Son teaches.

TC,

Check the link for a lengthy but breakdon analysis of the Yoruba language. To get the summariesd go to page 45 of the document.

http://books.google.com/books?id=OcINAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA45&lpg=PA45&dq=yoruba+roots&source=bl&ots=PFOEJTcFUk&sig=NNKmYt1xWrotER4ZqRqRi8XP6zU&hl=en&ei=Hue9Tu7HI86r0AG79qnFBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=yoruba%20roots&f=false

[img]http://farafinabooks.files./2010/03/13-14th-century-seated-figure.jpg[/img]
http://www.islandmix.com/backchat/f6/must-see-show-ife-exhibit-changes-ideas-about-african-art-233838/

exotik:

wot does this name mean in yoruba? this sounds edoid to me.

Yoruba names are tonal (osan gan gan could also mean an orange  ), however,



Osangangan = "High Noon" or mid-day.   The "high noon" was also worshiped as a deity, Osangangan. (Osan gan gan)
Obamakin = The King brings the brave one (Oba mu akin)


(Sur)Names like Ademakin, Ademakinwa, and Olumakin(wa), Ogunmakinde, Ogunmakinwa etc, are still common.

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