The problem is, with the African version of God, God cannot be reached by the people and can only be interceded. This does not mean that God has to answer. The African God would answer all the questions about why evil exists, because the African God is known to have elements which humans may consider evil, but which the reasons are just impossible to understand for their existence.

There is no point to asking who created God, because God is everything. Even if you considered God to be the universe, the universe has always existed. Who can tell me who created the first particles that made up the universe? Where did that come from?

Because we cannot answer this, we can only assume that these particles spontaneously generated, but particles cannot spontaneously generate because energy cannot be created nor destroyed. Not in THIS universe anyway. Who is to say God doesnt come from another universe? In the Christian bible, God speaks to other gods in Genesis, who is God speaking to? He said that we will know all that the Gods know with time, what knowledge is that? It can't be that God does not exist, because God could not refer to itself in a non-existential way.

tbaba1234:

I am not a christian,

I didn't say you were. I said you're simply ripping off the work of a Christian apologist and substituting the Qur'an for the Bible. Will you be able to defend his work?

[size=13pt]^{Best and the truth we've been asking. . . Bavoooooooooooooo   you have make me smile now that i see you have bring out the real truth out --- honestly , some people are too dump that they even fail to realize that God was Created by men in the first day--} [/size]

bayooooooo:

The answer is simple: Man created God!

ekt_bear:

Why is this true? We don't know. Maybe some things have existed forever, right? I don't know.

If anything existed forever, it should be forever. If you didn't know how did you know God is the beginning?Come on!

thehomer:

I didn't say you were. I said you're simply ripping off the work of a Christian apologist and substituting the Qur'an for the Bible. Will you be able to defend his work?

This is a purely muslim study;; It has nothing to do with christianity, check http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/ for some of the arguments,

Hebrews 1:10  And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Hebrews 1:11  They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
Hebrews 1:12  And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

Hebrews 11:6  But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that
                          diligently seek him.

BlackLibya:

The problem is, with the African version of God, God cannot be reached by the people and can only be interceded. This does not mean that God has to answer. The African God would answer all the questions about why evil exists, because the African God is known to have elements which humans may consider evil, but which the reasons are just impossible to understand for their existence.

There is no point to asking who created God, because God is everything. Even if you considered God to be the universe, the universe has always existed. Who can tell me who created the first particles that made up the universe? Where did that come from?

Because we cannot answer this, we can only assume that these particles spontaneously generated, but particles cannot spontaneously generate because energy cannot be created nor destroyed. Not in THIS universe anyway. Who is to say God doesnt come from another universe? In the Christian bible, God speaks to other gods in Genesis, who is God speaking to? He said that we will know all that the Gods know with time, what knowledge is that? It can't be that God does not exist, because God could not refer to itself in a non-existential way.

Even if it came from other universe doesn't prove it doesn't have a beginning. If you are coming from the scriptural angle then God is nothing more than contradicting itself and merely limited.

[size=13pt]<sup>Christians consider the existence of their God to be an obvious truth that no sane man could deny. I strongly disagree with this assumption not only because evidence for the existence of this presumably ubiquitous yet invisible God is lacking, but because the very nature Christians attribute to this God is self-contradictory.

It is taken for granted by Christians, as well as many atheists, that a universal negative cannot be proven. In this case, that universal negative is the statement that the Christian God does not exist. One would have to have omniscience, they say, in order to prove that anything does not exist. I disagree with this position, however, because omniscience is not needed in order to prove that a thing whose nature is a self-contradiction cannot, and therefore does not exist.

I do not need a complete knowledge of the universe to prove to you that cubic spheres do not exist. Such objects have mutually-exclusive attributes which would render their existence impossible. For example, a cube, by definition, has 8 corners, while a sphere has none. These properties are completely incompatible: they cannot be held simultaneously by the same object. It is my intent to show that the supposed properties of the Christian God Yahweh, like those of a cubic sphere, are incompatible, and by so doing, to show Yahweh's existence to be an impossibility.</sup> [/size]

I think anything related to God is just going to end up being a matter of faith. None of us can actually prove anything about whether he exists or not, whether the bible, koran, etc are the correct interpretation.

We certainly won't be able to prove anything about his origins (e.g., questions like "who created God?"

All just speculation on our parts, I think.

Mr Poster by definition every process or event has a "Beginning" or "Cause". This immediately invalidates any concept of an "Uncaused Cause". Understandably this illogical concept is normally espoused by people "overly" (read i have a faith system) subscribed to religious ideals, which inevitably brings us to the "God" question.

You can address the question two ways, with or without logic(read faith).  The former demanding that the maker most have had a maker whilst the latter skids the question with uncontested acceptance of largely antiquated and inheritted ideologies(albeit one still to be proved to be a bad thing).

Ultimately Mr Poster any route you chose to address this question you will always almost inevitably arrive at thesame conundrum,and it is this. I am a believer in the popular saying that "Logic and scientific formula" will be the final arbiter for all physical phenomena and it is for the very reason we have not being able to decipher a/the God/s. The concept of God is unquantifiable,incalculable,unobservable and immeasurable. It will always be a mystery.

So the answer is simple,there isn't one!!

Ogaga4Luv:

[size=13pt]<sup>Yeah , like i have clearly wrote that this isn't for argument --- we're to find out the truth about this thread soon  

hehehehe-- i feel like laughing reading your write up though most especially the part that say you're a Muslim-- u see? this place is open for every one your religion doesn't really matter okay .

1. Where is the Prove (S) that a good God that is omnipotent exist? You can't just say that God exist without giving PROOF .

2. Evil Exist i know very well but who is the source of evil?

3. Your number three on the list Contradict  the number one on the list

Another way to approach the impossibility of God is to think about the concept of omniscience which you've been talking about ever since . If God is omniscient, then it means that he knows every single thing that happens in the universe, both now and infinitely into the future. Do you have free will in such a universe? Clearly not. God knows everything that will happen to you. Therefore, the instant you were created, God knows whether you are going to heaven or hell. To create someone knowing that that person will be damned to hell for eternity is the epitome of evil.

Here is another way to understand the impossibility of God. If you look at the definition of God, you can see that he is defined as the "originator and ruler of the universe". Why does the universe need an originator -- a creator? Because, according to religious logic, the universe cannot exist unless it has a creator. A believer will say, "nothing can exist unless it is created." However, that satement immediately constructs a contradiction, because we must then wonder who created God--- Yeah , who created God? like our topic clearly said . For a believer the answer to that is simple -- "God is the one thing that does not need a creator   . God is timeless and has always existed." How can it be that the everything MUST have a creator, while God must NOT. . . huh  The contradiction in the definition of God is palpable.  

As soon as your think about the concept of a perfect, omnipotent, omniscient being, you realize the impossibility of the concept. That impossibility is yet another way to see that God is imaginary.</sup>   [/size]

Let us examine some of your contentions:

If the universe began to exist it was either:-

1. Created or brought into being from nothing
2. Self caused or self created
3. Created or brought into being by something else that began to exist
4. Created or brought into being by a non-created or un-caused entity

1. Created or brought into being from nothing

We know the universe couldn’t have come out of nothing, because out of nothing, nothing comes! This is an undeniable philosophical principle, as P. J. Zwart in his publication About Time explains,

“If there is anything we find inconceivable it is that something could arise from nothing.”

A significant point to raise here is that nothingness should not be misconstrued as the nothingness that some physicists talk about. The term nothingness in this context refers to the absence of anything physical, in other words there is no pre-existing ‘stuff’. In light of the beginning of the universe, there was absolutely nothing before it began to exist, which is why physicists have explained the universe as having a space-time boundary.

However, nothingness as defined by some physicists relates to the quantum vacuum. This is misleading because the quantum is something. In quantum theory the vacuum is a field of energy pervading the whole of the universe. In the word’s of John Polkinghorne, a philosopher of science, the quantum vacuum,

“…is not ‘nothing’; it is a structured and highly active entity.”

So, in context of some of the physicists’ definition, the universe could not have come from absolutely nothing, as the quantum vacuum is something. It is a sea of fluctuating energy, which is still part of the cosmos and it did not pre-exist the universe. This point leads us nicely to the next possible explanation.


Self caused or self created

Philosophically, the universe couldn’t have created itself because that would imply a paradox. It would mean that something can exist and not exist at the same time. The logical ends of this explanation are tantamount to saying that your mother gave birth to herself!

Recently, the world renowned physicist, Stephen Hawking in his new book The Grand Design argues that the universe did self create due to the law of gravity,

“Because there is a law like gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing…”

But his view on nothing, as previously mentioned, is not really nothingness but is space filled with the quantum vacuum, which is part of the universe. In essence Hawking is telling us that the universe can create itself, but it has to already exist for it to do that!

Concerning the law of gravity, well that is just a mathematical equation that describes nature. This law is part of the universe, which can also be described as a force of attraction between material objects. Therefore, how can this force exist before matter, in other words the universe?

To assert that the universe created itself would be absurd and self refuting, because in order for something to create itself it would need to exist before it existed!

Created or brought into being by something else that began to exist

This is not an adequate explanation for the origins of the universe. The universe could not have owed its existence to another state of temporal physical existence. To maintain such an explanation would be equivalent of expanding the boundaries of the universe, as all things which have a temporal beginning exist within the universe. Also, if temporal physical existence owes itself to another temporal physical existence ad infinitum, it doesn’t explain anything. Rather it highlights the absurdity of an infinite regress, and that there has to be a beginning to the temporal physical states, which logically must be a non-physical state.

Take the following example into consideration. If the universe, U1, followed another temporal cause U2, and U2 followed another temporal cause U3, and this went on ad infinitum we wouldn’t have the universe U1 in the first place. Think about it this way, when does U1 come into being? Only after U2 has come into being. When does U2 come into being? Only after U3 has come into being. This same problem will continue even if we go to infinity. If U1 depended on its coming into being on a chain of infinite temporal causes, U1 would never exist. As the Islamic Philosopher and Scholar Dr. Jaafar Idris writes,

“There would be no series of actual causes, but only a series of non-existents, as Ibn Taymiyyah explained. The fact, however, is that there are existents around us; therefore, their ultimate cause must be something other than temporal causes.”

Created or brought into being by a non-created or un-caused entity

Since something cannot come from nothing, and self creation is absurd, including the unreasonableness of the aforementioned explanation, then the universe being created or brought into existence by an uncaused entity is the best explanation. This concept is intuitive but also agrees with reality: whatever begins to exist has a cause or a creator.

This cause or creator must be uncaused due to the absurdity of an infinite regress, in other words an indefinite chain of causes. To illustrate this better, if the cause of the universe had a cause and that cause had a cause ad infinitum, then there wouldn’t be a universe to talk about in the first place (something we have already discussed above). For example, imagine if a Stock Trader on a trading floor at the Stock Exchange was not able to buy or sell his stocks or bonds before asking permission from the investor, and then this investor had to check with his, and this went on forever, would the Stock Trader every buy or sell his stocks or bonds? The answer is no. In similar light if we apply this to the universe we would have to posit an uncaused cause due to this rational necessity. The Qur’an confirms the uncreatedness of the creator, God,

“He neither begets nor is born.” Qur’an 112:3

The cause or creator for the universe must be a single cause for several reasons. An attractive argument to substantiate this claim includes the use of the rational principle called Occam’s razor. In philosophical terms the principle enjoins that we do not multiply entities beyond necessity. What this basically means is that we should stick to explanations that do not create more questions than it answers. In the context of the cause for the universe we have no evidence to claim multiplicity, in other words more than one. The Qur’an affirms the Oneness of the creator,

“Say: He is God, [who is] One.” Qur’an 112:1

However some philosophers and scientists claim: why doesn’t the cause be the universe itself? Why can’t the cause stop at the universe? Well, the problem with these claims is that they would imply that the universe created itself, which we have already discussed, is absurd. Additionally, we have good reasons to postulate a cause for the universe because the universe began to exist, and what begins to exist has a cause.

Our argument thus far allows us to conclude that this cause or creator must be non contingent meaning that its existence is dependent on nothing but itself. If it were contingent it would be one more effect in the chain of causes. The Qur’an verifies this,

“God is Independent of (all) creatures.” Qur’an 3:97

The cause or creator must also be transcendent, this means that the cause of the universe must exist outside of and apart from the universe. Since this being exists apart from the universe it must be non-physical or immaterial, if it was material then it would be part of the universe. This is confirmed in the Qur’an,

“There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing” Qur’an 42:11

This cause must have the power to create the universe, without this ability nothing could be created. The Qur’an testifies to God’s power,

“Certainly, God has power over all things.” Qur’an 2:20

This cause must have a will, because it wouldn’t be able to create the universe without one. What this means is that it must have a will so the power to create could be acted on. The Qur’an refers to God as having a will in many places, for instance,

“And God guides whom He wills to a straight path.” Qur’an 2:213

In summary, we have concluded what the Qur’an concluded over 1400 years ago, that a creator for the universe exists, that is one, has a will, is powerful, uncaused, immaterial and eternal.

@OP its evidenced that u didn't create this thread 2 seek knowledge but trouble ur mind. There r sme things that human mind/ scientific research can't discern. E.g "do we eat 2 live or live 2 eat?" "the hen and the egg which came 1st?".
But most importantly there is no basis 4 this question coz what u see alone in lyf r evidence of God existence bt trying 2 knw who created Him, u jst get depressd, coz u won't get answerz. ONLY A FOOL WILL SAY IN HIS HEART, THERE IS NO GOD!!!

Krucifax:

Mr Poster by definition every process or event has a "Beginning" or "Cause". This immediately invalidates any concept of an "Uncaused Cause". Understandably this illogical concept is normally espoused by people "overly" (read i have a faith system) subscribed to religious ideals, which inevitably brings us to the "God" question.

Why is this true? Why does everything have a beginning? You guys keep saying it, but how do we know?

tbaba1234:

This is a purely muslim study;; It has nothing to do with christianity,  check http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/ for some of the arguments,  

Oh. In that case, he is simply ripping off a Christian apologist.

Ogaga4Luv:

[size=13pt]^{Best and the truth we've been asking. . . Bavoooooooooooooo   you have make me smile now that i see you have bring out the real truth out --- honestly , some people are too dump that they even fail to realize that God was Created by men in the first day--} [/size]

Obviously there is more than one God and all are different! Islamic God,  Christian God, Judaism, Buddhism, Taoism, Jainism, Sikhism etc
how many God do we have?

thehomer:

Oh. In that case, he is simply ripping off a Christian apologist.

I assure that is not the case, I have all references,

[size=13pt]^{Yes friend you are right--- there are 1000's of God in the world today and still counting}   [/size]

bayooooooo:

Obviously there is more than one God and all are different! Islamic God,  Christian God, Judaism, Buddhism, Taoism, Jainism, Sikhism etc
how many God do we have?  

sholay2011:

@op Wu creatd God? a questn indeed. y dnt u start by answering y d pacific ocean has nt dried up?
stewpid lousy ppl lukin 4 trouble,
b4 i tongue-lash necessary quarters, i believe God is d supreme nd His existence is a mysterious mystery that is yet 2 b unraveled, at least, nt a place lyk nairaland.
but if u re so impatient to wait 4 d ansa 2 your questn, u can fast4ward your lifespan by drinkin conc. HCl. b4 u knw it, u re in frnt of baba GOD (dats if u re nt burning in fire alredi). u can nw ask Him hw He was creatd, am sure He wud b quite glad 2 ansa u,  

I am on your side!!

View this @ all very important www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-802723.0.html

if there are powerful demons out there that run at the mentioning of the name Jesus Christ, then its rational to believe that there's a Supreme Entity up above, trust me i've seen demons at work/

tbaba1234:

I assure that is not the case,

Don't sweat it. I've gone through enough apologetics to see where Hamza got his stuff.

Also, I notice that you're simply copy pasting rather than freely discussing the ideas.

tbaba1234:

1. Created or brought into being from nothing

[b]We know the universe couldn’t have come out of nothing, because out of nothing, nothing comes! This is an undeniable philosophical principle, as P. J. Zwart in his publication About Time explains,

“If there is anything we find inconceivable it is that something could arise from nothing.”[[/b]8]

You see where the whole thing is mixed up? Nothing is the beginning in this case which existed before God. If God is that nothing then it is acceptable God is nothing because it what makes sense than the religion God. On the other hand nothing is something which is nothing - to the general sense nothing could be anything as the beginning, which is the infinite irreducible. We should stop creating God when we know that something like nothing is there.

I see people never get tired of these chicken and egg arguments. The chicken or the egg: which came first? Did the the egg originate from the chicken or vice versa? It's an argument that would never end. Besides, no side would ever successfully convince the other through argument. The truth of the matter is that there is NO DEFINITIVE WAY of determining who (or what) created God - assuming that he exists sef. The arguments for and against are compelling in equal measure. That's why I've largely found myself stranded on the middle-of-the-road. . .where you'd generally find agnostics (even though I'm not so sure that I am one).

Clearly, we're not intelligent enough (as mere humans) to understand the workings of the universe, let alone its origins. There's only so much the human brain/mind is capable of knowing.

Ekpekus:

@OP its evidenced that u didn't create this thread 2 seek knowledge but trouble your mind. There r sme things that human mind/ scientific research can't discern. E.g "do we eat 2 live or live 2 eat?" "the hen and the egg which came 1st?".
But most importantly there is no basis 4 this question coz what u see alone in lyf r evidence of God existence bt trying 2 knw who created Him, u jst get depressd, coz u won't get answerz. ONLY A FOOL WILL SAY IN HIS HEART, THERE IS NO GOD!!!

I just wanted to engage with the atheist and show some of them the absurdity of their world view,

thehomer:

Don't sweat it. I've gone through enough apologetics to see where Hamza got his stuff.

Also, I notice that you're simply copy pasting rather than freely discussing the ideas.

Like i said i have all references with me, The atheist has to come with dynamic ideas; I am terribly disappointed with the arguments thus far,

@ tbaba1234,

As thought provoking as your discussion topic may sound, together with your "so-called" rational debate, the debate "unfortunately"
cannot be rational. This is because no scientific theory or hypothesis can be applied to the existence or workings of the Almighty God.
When it comes to things related or connected to God's existence, you either believe or don't based on your faith.

Believing The Truth based on your faith.

Find below references from the bible.

Faith is believing in what is true. Faith has two elements: 1) being convinced of the truth, being certain of reality, having evidence of unseen things, and 2) believing, hoping in, embracing, seizing the truth.
Heb 11:1 (KJV) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Heb 11:1 (NIV) Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Heb 11:1 (NEB) Faith, makes us certain of realities we do not see.

Heb 11:1 (Mof) Now faith means that we are confident of what we hope for, convinced of what we do not see.

Heb 11:1 (Wey) Now faith is a well-grounded assurance of that for which we hope, and a conviction of the reality of things which we do not see.

It is a matter of faith, not scientific inquiry, reasoning or rationalization.

ekt_bear:

Why is this true? Why does everything have a beginning? You guys keep saying it, but how do we know?

If you look at it from an observable,calculable stand point it's quite easy. Note i stress logic when making the point. Take your question "how do we know".
Pause for a minute and you can answer it yourself. Ask yourself how do you or anyone know what they know? Observation and application of logic. Anything else is an acceptance of Observation and logic that has been applied by someone else on your behalf regardless of where you sourced the information (Textbooks,Websites,Journals,Seminars,Lectures etc etc) It's still the same thing.

Which brings me to a repetition of the point i alluded to. Because God is unobservable we can make no rational conclusions unless of course you want to apply faith( No logic) then Presto!! Problem solved!

It is surprising how people quote from that book we all know how it has gone through many generation of been altered. It most funny when people profess this faith with not questioning. After all only those who don't question(dumb to be in such state) will go to heaven. This is don't tell matter!

Existence is a human construct!

Krucifax:

If you look at it from an observable,calculable stand point it's quite easy. Note i stress logic when making the point. Take your question "how do we know".
Pause for a minute and you can answer it yourself. Ask yourself how do you or anyone know what they know? Observation and application of logic. Anything else is an acceptance of Observation and logic that has been applied by someone else on your behalf regardless of where you sourced the information (Textbooks,Websites,Journals,Seminars,Lectures etc etc) It's still the same thing.

Which brings me to a repetition of the point i alluded to. Because God is unobservable with can make no rational conclusions unless of course you want to apply faith( No logic) then Presto!! Problem solved!

I personally don't see why it is true that everything has a beginning. I don't see why logically it must be true. Maybe some things have existed since the big b[i]a[/i]ng, and maybe some of those things existed even before it. . .

None of us know, is my point. We are all just guessing, reasoning that since most of the things we observe in our lives have a beginning (and an end), that this holds true in general. But we don't know that this is true.

Krucifax:

If you look at it from an observable,calculable stand point it's quite easy. Note i stress logic when making the point. Take your question "how do we know".
Pause for a minute and you can answer it yourself. Ask yourself how do you or anyone know what they know? Observation and application of logic. Anything else is an acceptance of Observation and logic that has been applied by someone else on your behalf regardless of where you sourced the information (Textbooks,Websites,Journals,Seminars,Lectures etc etc) It's still the same thing.

Which brings me to a repetition of the point i alluded to. Because God is unobservable we can make no rational conclusions unless of course you want to apply faith( No logic) then Presto!! Problem solved!

That is too deep for religionists and theist alike. Closer to us is Mathematics which is not God creation - if not ,they would say God created everything.

tbaba1234:

I just wanted to engage with the atheist and show some of them the absurdity of their world view,

@tbaba1234 are you saying you God was not created?