bayooooooo:

Since something cannot come from nothing, and self creation is absurd, including the unreasonableness of the aforementioned explanation, then the universe being created or brought into existence by an uncaused entity is the best explanation. This concept is intuitive but also agrees with reality: whatever begins to exist has a cause or a creator.

Forget about the beginning of universe. Let us settle the beginning of God first because he must have created the universe right?  

The strength of your argument, paradoxically, is also it's weakness. Look at the highlighted part and answer this question: Since you admit something cannot come from nothing and self creation is absurd ( ) and whatever begins to exist has a cause or a creator, then What caused the uncaused entity to exist?

tbaba1234 link=topic=802332.msg9550448#msg9550448 date=1321229886:

The argument i made is that in the real physical world [/b]given the [b]set rules we know; the concept of infinity is in conceivable. It is not rational to apply such a reasoning to the metaphysical because that is unobserved,  We already proved that the cause is transcendent,

What do you mean "real physical world", do you have an imaginary world? What set of rules ?

tbaba1234, I have patiently followed your arguments, they are at best contradictory and do not justify why that your God exist. You may come up with a better more convincing explanation later on, but I am sorry I am going to say your arguments are absurd and not that of Atheists.

I put it to you that you created your God!

: (1) Time. No one can point to a certain moment as the beginning of time. And it is a fact that, even though our lives end, time does not. We do not reject the idea of time because there are aspects of it that we do not fully comprehend. Rather, we regulate our lives by it. (2) Space. Astronomers find no beginning or end to space. The farther they probe into the universe, the more there is. They do not reject what the evidence shows; many refer to space as being infinite. The same principle applies to the existence of God.
Other examples: (1) Astronomers tell us that the heat of the sun at its core is 27,000,000 degrees Fahrenheit (15,000,000° C.). Do we reject that idea because we cannot fully comprehend such intense heat? (2) They tell us that the size of our Milky Way is so great that a beam of light traveling at over 186,000 miles per second (300,000 km/sec) would require 100,000 years to cross it. Do our minds really comprehend such a distance? Yet we accept it because scientific evidence supports it.
, so if we accept scientific findings,tho sometimes sounds outrageous why doubt Gods existence and his having no beginnin, if (time) has no beginnin and end,then why on earth will little humans made of dust question Gods leaving from time indefinite to time indefinite,

tbaba1234:

Oh i have a response to dawkins too : https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-801064.0.html

Sure! I don't agree with him fully but I don't blame him for saying that because God(THE RELIGION GOD) doesn't add up for the origin of the universe.

all4naija:

I only know of one world that is the physical world and that world I am saying that is possible!Can you see quark? Then, it is on that knife sharp edge.

Like i said, that is an impractical mathematical concept in the physical: Can you give me infinite number of pens? It is only useful for mathematical computations

bayooooooo:




What do you mean "real physical world", do you have an imaginary world? What set of rules ?

tbaba1234, I have patiently followed your arguments, they are at best contradictory and do not justify why that your God exist. You may come up with a better more convincing explanation later on, but I am sorry I am going to say your arguments are absurd and not that of Atheists.

I put it to you that you created your God!

The physical world you live in: So far no atheist has successfully countered my points; i am thoroughly disappointed

[size=13pt]^{You don't even have to blame him at all. . . blame God for keeping silent for many years and disproving his existence}   [/size]

all4naija:

I don't blame Hawkins who said God is not needed in the cause of the universe.

tbaba1234:

Like i said, that is an impractical mathematical concept in the physical: Can you give me infinite number of pens? It is only useful for mathematical computations

It is useful in the real word. It helps to balance an equation and useful in theories. That pen might fall into 10 to power of bar infinity - leaving every other factor constant.

TO THE ATHEIST, YOU HAVE JUST ONE PROBLEM COMPREHENSION OF ENGLISH LANGUAGE. SIMPLE.

tbaba1234:

The physical world you live in: So far  no atheist has successfully countered my points; i am thoroughly disappointed

Funny dude! You ll never believe and you will never agree that your arguments have been defeated. Based on your writings, you are not even a Muslim you claimed to be, you are agnostic!

[size=13pt]<sup>But, for the sake of argument, let's continue. Let us suppose that this perfect God did create the universe. Humans were the crown of his creation, since they were created in God's image and have the ability to make decisions. However, these humans spoiled the original perfection by choosing to disobey God.

What!? If something is perfect, nothing imperfect can come from it. Someone once said that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree, and yet this "perfect" God created a "perfect" universe which was rendered imperfect by the "perfect" humans. The ultimate source of imperfection is God. What is perfect cannot become imperfect, so humans must have been created imperfect. What is perfect cannot create anything imperfect, so God must be imperfect to have created these imperfect humans. A perfect God who creates imperfect humans is impossible.</sup>  [/size]

campbell05:

TO THE ATHEIST,  YOU HAVE JUST ONE PROBLEM COMPREHENSION OF ENGLISH LANGUAGE. SIMPLE.

How?

ramalot:

@tbaba1234
just like every other theist, your arguments and beliefs are bloated with contradiction and selective reasoning or a lack there-of.
On the one hand, you put forward an argument which you have repeated numerous times to be based on "logic." So with this stand i assume we have no argument that "logic" is the true way to go about rationalizing a position. . Awesome!

Now, on the other hand, you and i know that religion is entirely based on "faith," and logic plays no role in validating the claims of religion. Hence, if we go further into this argument, you would helplessly have to resort to multiple instances of "god defies all human logic, so thats why bla bla bla"

The point here is this. You can not afford both positions. You either stick with logic like atheists do, or you stick with faith like theists do. There is no room for flip-flopping positions when it is convenient. Since you say u're muslim, i assume the latter should be your base. Hence, making your original argument invalid in the context of your belief.

Logic + faith = Incompatible.

On the contrary, Islam is based on reason: Throughout the Quranic discourse you are frequently asked : ", Will you not reason?" Reason is a fundamental aspect of my religion, You are making your assumptions based on the christian faith.

There is no BLIND faith: Logic strengthens my faith,

[size=13pt]^{bayooooooo  dear don't mind that asse-hole --- i guess he's only trying to cause distraction and seek attention -- give no room for such kind of comment (s) like i pretend as if i didn't read that from the front of my screen}   [/size]

tbaba1234:

On the contrary, Islam is based on reason: Throughout the Quranic discourse you are frequently asked : ",  Will you not reason?" Reason is a fundamental aspect of my religion,  You are making your assumptions based on the christian faith.

There is no BLIND faith: Logic strengthens my faith,

all4naija:

It is useful in the real word. It helps to balance an equation and useful in theories. That pen might fall into 10 to power of bar infinity - leaving every other factor constant.

Mathematics is useful to create theories based on assumption of infinity like i said isn't observable: How many people see "that pen might fall into 10 to power of bar infinity - leaving every other factor constant."

Exactly, i thought not

Id be back soon people with my second argument, Don't miss me too much

tbaba1234:

Id be back soon people with my second argument, Don't miss me too much

No problem! It's just about 8pm here.

tbaba1234:

Mathematics is useful to create theories based on assumption of infinity like i said isn't observable: How many people see "that pen might fall into 10 to power of bar infinity - leaving every other factor constant."

Exactly, i thought not

Let me explain it in general English. From the sharp edge of the knife are many particles as you choose one and continue to sort out its constituent you start getting close to the point of infinity - at the elementary particle irreducible. Come on, it is logical. Just as you know in everything, if you can locate the end of an object you will likely know that it has a beginning. That beginning is real in that calculation of infinity - just that you don't want to accept it is practicable in the physical world because you can not see it.What's not observable in this regard with theory and relating with the physical world - the sharp edge of the knife?

I wonder hw human being call human person "mumu,crazy or d lyk. Anyway @ poster; i think i owe u 'thank u very much 4 dat rational & logical post. Dont mind them, u're on ur latest version. As 4 ur question; God wasn't created by anytin or being, God is d universe and cant b seen as a being only but by wut we perceive wit our 5 senses

God has now become the Universe - that I can only accept as lame excuse!

[size=15pt]There is a God because there is a God. Simple [/size]

mikechris_general:

I wonder hw human being call human person "mumu,crazy or d lyk. Anyway @ poster; i think i owe u 'thank u very much 4 dat rational & logical post. Dont mind them, u're on your latest version. As 4 your question; God wasn't created by anytin or being, [b]God is d universe [/b]and cant b seen as a being only but by wut we perceive wit our 5 senses

I can't stop laughing!  

publisher:

[size=15pt]There is a God because there is a God. Simple [/size]

I think there is God because you created God! simple

The odds are that both the religious and atheist don't know nothing about what they are arguing about. However the atheist are the ones that look more silly. I will say for sure that there is a being higher than humans. Now the nature of that being is not known to any man. I believe we are not just flesh and bones, but are much more than that. This is the reasoning of a typical Religious person-

The name of God is "John", he has spoken to me and he says you should do this and not do this. There are millions of religions out there with millions of followers all believing that they know the truth, and their ways are the right way. It is no doubt that religion is a great tool for mind control and political supremacy. However all these religions have one thing in common; the believe in a supreme being or beings. A lot of religious people are fed this and that and are controlled by there religious leaders. In most cases the representatives of this God live in wealth while their followers live in poverty. I believe those religions are manipulative and a good example of the corruption of God. I don't believe that God came yesterday or today, I think he has always being there in people's consciousness. Christians, Muslims, Hindus, and so on have all got it wrong. God has a personal relationship with his creatures and such relationship should remain personal. This is the reasoning of a typical atheist-

1) The universe came into existence from an extremely uncertain "big slam" that came about from nothingness- This postulation is absurd; you can't get something from nothing, therefore atheism is just another religion. They claim that they use scientific facts but can't adequately explain half of the things they say. It would be more respectful to come out and say that you don't believe in God, and you don't know the origin of the universe, but you are still learning and searching.

2) Evolution- Many atheist try to paste evolution as evidence that they are telling the truth. They say monkeys have almost identical DNA to humans (maybe true, maybe not), then monkeys turned into pre-humans, then into Africans then into other people, and so on. My answer is yeah you may be right, but can you give any proof, since you are all scientists. Their answer is not really but we can show you that cells mutate. There isn't any sound proof of evolution, there are only bits and pieces, which cannot be pieced together, and can be proved using a million other hypothesis.

3)History- To atheist history has zero bearing. There assumption is that humans that live before them are all id*iots that can't understand anything about there surroundings. Yet a lot of the scientific principles used today were either directly copied from the ancients or derived from the techniques of the ancients. Every community in the world believed in some God, even before they came in contact with other communities in the world. To the atheist, this fact has no bearing, because they were all fo*ols and had to believe in some God to cure their depression.

Bottom-line I don't know the origin of God, but that does not disprove the existence of God.

reading from the sidelines

ebere1712:

The odds are that both the religious and atheist don't know nothing about what they are arguing about. However the atheist are the ones that look more silly. I will say for sure that there is a being higher than humans. Now the nature of that being is not known to any man. I believe we are not just flesh and bones, but are much more than that. This is the reasoning of a typical Religious person-

The name of God is "John", he has spoken to me and he says you should do this and not do this. There are millions of religions out there with millions of followers all believing that they know the truth, and their ways are the right way. It is no doubt that religion is a great tool for mind control and political supremacy. However all these religions have one thing in common; the believe in a supreme being or beings. A lot of religious people are fed this and that and are controlled by there religious leaders. In most cases the representatives of this God live in wealth while their followers live in poverty. I believe those religions are manipulative and a good example of the corruption of God. I don't believe that God came yesterday or today, I think he has always being there in people's consciousness. Christians, Muslims, Hindus, and so on have all got it wrong. God has a personal relationship with his creatures and such relationship should remain personal. This is the reasoning of a typical atheist-

1) The universe came into existence from an extremely uncertain "big slam" that came about from nothingness- This postulation is absurd; you can't get something from nothing, therefore atheism is just another religion. They claim that they use scientific facts but can't adequately explain half of the things they say. It would be more respectful to come out and say that you don't believe in God, and you don't know the origin of the universe, but you are still learning and searching.

2) Evolution- Many atheist try to paste evolution as evidence that they are telling the truth. They say monkeys have almost identical DNA to humans (maybe true, maybe not), then monkeys turned into pre-humans, then into Africans then into other people, and so on. My answer is yeah you may be right, but can you give any proof, since you are all scientists. Their answer is not really but we can show you that cells mutate. There isn't any sound proof of evolution, there are only bits and pieces, which cannot be pieced together, and can be proved using a million other hypothesis.

3)History- To atheist history has zero bearing. There assumption is that humans that live before them are all id*iots that can't understand anything about there surroundings. Yet a lot of the scientific principles used today were either directly copied from the ancients or derived from the techniques of the ancients. Every community in the world believed in some God, even before they came in contact with other communities in the world. To the atheist, this fact has no bearing, because they were all fo*ols and had to believe in some God to cure their depression.

Bottom-line I don't know the origin of God, but that does not disprove the existence of God.

on the face value, your post seems reasonable except for minor generalizations and the feeling that you sound authoritative on issues you may know nothing about.

Anyway, your bottom line is cool and seems unassailable! But permit someone to also say this:I don't know the origin of God,no one has been able to convince me how He came to be, therefore, I do not believe in his existence!

[size=13pt]^{The Christians' objection to this argument involves freewill. They say that a being must have freewill to be happy. The omnibenevolent God did not wish to create robots, so he gave humans freewill to enable them to experience love and happiness . But the humans used this freewill to choose evil because God allowed evil to exist , and introduced imperfection into God's originally perfect universe---- God want it that way . God had no control over this decision, so the blame for our imperfect universe is on the God, not humans .}
[/size]

Ogaga4Luv:

[size=13pt]^{The Christians' objection to this argument involves freewill. They say that a being must have freewill to be happy. The omnibenevolent God did not wish to create robots, so he gave humans freewill to enable them to experience love and happiness . But the humans used this freewill to choose evil because God allowed evil to exist , and introduced imperfection into God's originally perfect universe---- God want it that way . God had no control over this decision, so the blame for our imperfect universe is on the God, not humans .}
[/size]

God ( ) bless you my brother!

[size=13pt]^{Thanks for the blessings brother but i think God have nothing good to offer the World while sitting down somewhere above the sky , folding his arms and legs watching all the evil going on --- Instead of me accepting blessing from God i prefer the worst blessings from Satan even though , they have spoiled his innocent name to promotes the invisible and imaginary GOD created by fellow men to stir up things. . . I choose Satan all the way --- Satan is far better than God even}
[/size]

bayooooooo:

God ( ) bless you my brother!

The Christians' objection to this argument involves freewill. They say that a being must have freewill to be happy. The omnibenevolent God did not wish to create robots, so he gave humans freewill to enable them to experience love and happiness Grin. But the humans used this freewill to choose evil because God allowed evil to exist , and introduced imperfection into God's originally perfect universe---- God want it that way . God had no control over this decision, so the blame for our imperfect universe is on the God, not humans . Wink

What about ATR with no traditional bounds between good and evil? Its easy to pick on the Abrahamic religions, but what about the ATRs?