mschew.

[size=13pt]<sup>even if we were to allow the necessity of freewill for happiness, God could have created humans with freewill who did not have the ability to choose evil, but to choose between several good options.

God supposedly has freewill, and yet he does make imperfect decisions. If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should likewise be imperfect. Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions. Why would the originally imperfect humans do differently? That God is asking is not possible because he's claiming too much in tittles i can see whereas , there's no single prove of his existence</sup>
[/size]

[size=13pt]^{Sorry i come back again i really need to express myself and expose the sincere truth --- The point remains: the presence of imperfections in the universe disproves the supposed perfection of its creator.} [/size]

ramalot:

Not only the christian faith thrives on faith. All of religion thrives on faith. When the Quran asks you "will you not reason?" as you say, this is not an objective question. It is persuasive, as it simply implores you to "reason" along the lines it is prescribing. "Reason" in this context is only a subtle "why won't you just conform." True reasoning requires that you weigh all the hard evidence on ground from all sides, and then make your pick. I don't think you would be naive enough to say Your religion (Islam) like any other is flexible enough to promote and tolerate true "reasoning."

I know you have heard this before, but it still holds water that the absence of any evidence whatsoever is an evidence of absence. So when you say you do not practice a "blind faith," i hate to break it to you sir, but you have contradicted yourself once more (no surprise). The belief in something with no logical explanation, and a total absence of evidence is by definition "BLIND FAITH"

FYI in order to be a true religious person, you must possess the "gift" of BLIND FAITH, because without this the reality becomes evident.

Sir but absence of any evidence may also mean an absence of knowledge

[size=28pt]@OP
Who Created God ??[/size]


[size=28pt] Answer:[/size]   [size=50pt] YOUR FATHER !!!!!!!!![/size] 


[size=35pt]God Is Yesterday,Today, Tomorrow And Forever !!![/size] 

Hmmmm

[size=13pt]^{God is omniscient. When he created the universe, he saw the sufferings which humans would endure as a result of the sin of those original humans. He heard the screams of the damned. Surely he would have known that it would have been better for those humans to never have been born (in fact, the Bible says this very thing), and surely this all-compassionate deity would have foregone the creation of a universe destined to imperfection in which many of the humans were doomed to eternal suffering. A perfectly compassionate being who creates beings which he knows are doomed to suffer is impossible.}   [/size]

darne:

[size=28pt]@OP
Who Created God ??[/size]


[size=28pt] Answer:[/size]   [size=50pt] YOUR FATHER !!!!!!!!![/size] 


[size=35pt]God Is Yesterday,Today, Tomorrow And Forever !!![/size] 

Can you read opening statement first?

The point remains: the presence of imperfections in the universe disproves the supposed perfection of its creator.

[size=13pt]^{dude u should know not everyone here is matured. . . like u can see from his post , he sound a BOO!!  and from another planet lol} [/size]

tbaba1234:

Can you read opening statement first?

*** ***

bayooooooo:

The point remains: the presence of imperfections in the universe disproves the supposed perfection of its creator.

ramalot:

Not only the christian faith thrives on faith. All of religion thrives on faith. When the Quran asks you "will you not reason?" as you say, this is not an objective question. It is persuasive, as it simply implores you to "reason" along the lines it is prescribing. "Reason" in this context is only a subtle "why won't you just conform." True reasoning requires that you weigh all the hard evidence on ground from all sides, and then make your pick. I don't think you would be naive enough to say Your religion (Islam) like any other is flexible enough to promote and tolerate true "reasoning."

I know you have heard this before, but it still holds water that the absence of any evidence whatsoever is an evidence of absence. So when you say you do not practice a "blind faith," i hate to break it to you sir, but you have contradicted yourself once more (no surprise). The belief in something with no logical explanation, and a total absence of evidence is by definition "BLIND FAITH"

FYI in order to be a true religious person, you must possess the "gift" of BLIND FAITH, because without this the reality becomes evident.

Again i will have to disagree with you, Reason is based on evidence: The Quranic discourse presents an hypothesis, evidence and  then implores its reader to reason based on that evidence, It causes you to think, that is for those willing to think:

My next argument is based on that; We explore the rational deduction that can be made from just thinking,

[size=13pt]^{God is perfectly just, and yet he sentences the imperfect humans he created to infinite suffering in hell for finite sins. Clearly, a limited offense does not warrant unlimited punishment. God's sentencing of the imperfect humans to an eternity in hell for a mere mortal lifetime of sin is infinitely more unjust than this punishment . The absurd injustice of this infinite punishment is even greater when we consider that the ultimate source of human imperfection is the God who created them. A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible.} [/size]

all4naija:

Let me explain it in general English. From the sharp edge of the knife are many particles as you choose one and continue to sort out its constituent you start getting close to the point of infinity - at the elementary particle irreducible. Come on, it is logical. Just as you know in everything, if you can locate the end of an object you will likely know that it has a beginning. That beginning is real in that calculation of infinity - just that you don't want to accept it is practicable in the physical world because you can not see it.What's not observable in this regard with theory and relating with the physical world - the sharp edge of the knife?

Exactly, define that point of infinity observable in nature::  Like i said :: Infinity is just a mathematical construct,

[size=13pt]^{Consider all of the people who live in the remote regions of the world who have never even heard the "gospel" of Jesus Christ. Consider the people who have naturally adhered to the religion of their parents and nation as they had been taught to do since birth. If we are to believe the Christians, all of these people will perish in the eternal fire for not believing in Jesus . It does not matter how just, kind, and generous they have been with their fellow humans during their lifetime: if they do not accept the gospel of Jesus, they are condemned. No just God would ever judge a man by his beliefs rather than his actions.} [/size]

@OP:
Even as a Christian, It's quite sad how it seems in our world today, atheists seem to be more concerned about suffering and its roots than christians. I've heard Christians say some harsh things about/to people who suffer - "Give your life to Christ and all will be well" "Have faith in God and keep paying your tithes" "God does not want you to sin". They'd keep reminding about eternal damnation while ignoring the earthly plight.

In response to your question "Who created God",

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised

Romans 1

While this verses strengthen the claim that gods were created by men, it also refers to nature as being God. In my own point of view, understanding nature is understanding God. Today the weather is good, tomorrow there could be a hurricane. Would you call nature kind or brutal?

Since the atheists have failed roundly to counter my logical explanation for the existence of God:

Let me present another point; this time a philosophical argument/rational deduction

ARGUMENT NO 2

A philosophical arguement for the Quran

William Shakespeare, who was an English poet and playwright, widely regarded as the greatest writer in the English language, is often used as an example of unique literature. The argument posed is that if Shakespeare expressed his poetry and prose in a unique manner – and he is a human being – then surely no matter how unique the Qur’an is, it must also be from a human being.

However there are some problems with the above argument. It does not take into account the nature of the Qur’an’s uniqueness and it doesn’t understand the uniqueness of literary geniuses such as Shakespeare. Although Shakespeare composed poetry and prose that received an unparalleled aesthetic reception, the literary form he expressed his works in was not unique. In many instances Shakespeare used the common Iambic Pentameter (The Iambic pentameter is a meter in poetry. It refers to a line consisting of five iambic feet. The word “pentameter” simply means that there are five feet in the line.) However in the case of the Qur’an, its language is in an entirely unknown and unmatched literary form. The structural features of the Qur’anic discourse render it unique and not the subjective appreciation of its literary and linguistic makeup.

With this in mind there are two approaches that can show that there are greater reasons to believe that the Qur’an is from the divine and a miraculous text. The first approach is rational deduction and the second is the philosophy of Miracles.

Rational Deduction

Rational deduction is the thinking process where logical conclusions are drawn from a universally accepted statement or provable premises. This process is also called rational inference or logical deduction.
In the context of the Qur’an’s uniqueness the universally accepted statement supported by eastern and western scholarship is:

“The Qur’an was not successfully imitated by the Arabs at the time of revelation”

From this statement the following logical conclusions can be drawn:

1. The Qur’an could not have come from an Arab as the Arabs, at the time of revelation, were linguists par excellence and they failed to challenge the Qur’an. They had even admitted that the Qur’an could have not come from a human being.

2. The Qur’an could not have come from a Non-Arab as the language in the Qur’an is Arabic, and the knowledge of the Arabic language is a pre-requisite to successfully challenge the Qur’an.

3. The Qur’an could not have come from the Prophet Muhammad due to the following reasons:

a. The Prophet Muhammad was an Arab himself and all the Arabs failed to challenge the Qur’an.

b. The Arabs linguists at the time of revelation never accused the Prophet of being the author of the Qur’an.

c. The Prophet Muhammad experienced many trials and tribulations during the course of his Prophetic mission. For example his children died, his beloved wife Khadija passed away, he was boycotted, his close companions were tortured and killed, yet the Qur’an’s literary character remains that of the divine voice and character. Nothing in the Qur’an expresses the turmoil and emotions of the Prophet Muhammad. It is almost a psychological and physiological impossibility to go through what the Prophet went through and yet none of the emotions are expressed in the literary character of the Qur’an.

d. The Qur’an is a known literary masterpiece yet its verse were at many times revealed for specific circumstances and events that occurred. However, without revision or deletion they are literary masterpieces. All literary masterpieces have undergone revision and deletion to ensure literary perfection, however the Qur’an was revealed instantaneously.

e. The hadith or narrations of the Prophet Muhammad are in a totally different style then that of the Qur’an. How can any human being express themselves orally over a 23 year period (which was the period of Qur’anic revelation) in two distinct styles? This is a psychological and physiological impossibility according to modern research.

f. All types of human expression can be imitated if the blueprint of that expression exists. For example artwork can be imitated even though some art is thought to be extraordinary or amazingly unique. But in the case of the Qur’an we have the blueprint – the Qur’an itself – yet no one has been able to imitate its unique literary form.

4. The Qur’an could not have come from another being such as a Jinn or Spirit because the basis of their existence is the Qur’an and revelation itself. Their existence is based upon revelation and not empirical evidence. Therefore if someone claims that the source of the Qur’an to be another being then they would have to prove its existence and in this case proving revelation. In the case of using the Qur’an as the revelation to establish Jinns existence then that would mean the whole rational deduction exercise would not be required in the first place, as the Qur’an would already have been established as a divine text, because to believe in Jinns existence would mean belief in the Qur’an in the first place.

5. The Qur’an can only have come from the Divine as it is the only logical explanation as all other explanations have been discarded because they do not explain the uniqueness of the Qur’an in a comprehensive and coherent manner.

“Or do they say: “He (Prophet Muhammad, ) has forged it (this Qur’an)?” Nay! They believe not! Let them then produce a recitation like it (the Qur’an) if they are truthful.” Surah at-Toor (The Mount) 52: 33-34.

Philosophy of Miracles

The word miracle is derived from the Latin word ‘miraculum’ meaning “something wonderful”. A miracle is commonly defined as a violation of a natural law (lex naturalis); however this is an incoherent definition. This incoherence is due our understanding of natural laws, as the Philosopher Bilynskyj observes “…so long as natural laws are conceived of as universal inductive generalisations the notion of violation of a nature law is incoherent.”

Natural laws are inductive generalizations of patterns we observe in the universe. If the definition of a miracle is a violation of a natural law, in other words a violation of the patterns we observe in the universe, then an obvious conceptual problem occurs. The problem is: why can’t we take this perceived violation of the pattern as part of the pattern? Therefore the more coherent description of a miracle is not a ‘violation’ but an ‘impossibility’. The Philosopher William Lane Craig rejects the definition of a miracle as a “violation of a natural law” and replaces it with the coherent definition of “events which lie outside the productive capacity of nature”. What this means is that miracles are acts of impossibilities concerning causal or logical connections.

The Miraculous Qur’an

What makes the Qur’an a miracle, is that it lies outside the productive capacity of the nature of the Arabic language. The productive capacity of nature, concerning the Arabic language, is that any grammatically sound expression of the Arabic language will always fall within the known Arabic literary forms of Prose and Poetry.

The Qur’an is a miracle as its literary form cannot be explained via the productive capacity of the Arabic language, because all the possible combinations of Arabic words, letters and grammatical rules have been exhausted and yet the Qur’an’s literary form has not been imitated. The Arabs who were known to have been Arab linguists par excellence failed to successfully challenge the Qur’an. Forster Fitzgerald Arbuthnot who was a notable British Orientalist and translator states:

“…and that though several attempts have been made to produce a work equal to it as far as elegant writing is concerned, none has as yet succeeded.”[1]

The implication of this is that there is no link between the Qur’an and the Arabic language; however this seems impossible because the Qur’an is made up of the Arabic language! On the other hand, all the combinations of Arabic words and letters have been used to try and imitate the Qur’an. Therefore, it can only be concluded that a supernatural explanation is the only coherent explanation for this impossible Arabic literary form – the Qur’an.

When we look at the productive nature of the Arabic language to find an answer for the unique literary form of the Qur’an, we find no link between it and the divine text, thus making it an impossibility requiring supernatural explanation. So it logically follows that if the Qur’an is a literary event that lies outside the productive capacity of the Arabic language, then, by definition, it is a miracle.

Ogaga4Luv:

[size=13pt]^{Consider all of the people who live in the remote regions of the world who have never even heard the "gospel" of Jesus Christ. Consider the people who have naturally adhered to the religion of their parents and nation as they had been taught to do since birth. If we are to believe the Christians, all of these people will perish in the eternal fire for not believing in Jesus . It does not matter how just, kind, and generous they have been with their fellow humans during their lifetime: if they do not accept the gospel of Jesus, they are condemned. No just God would ever judge a man by his beliefs rather than his actions.} [/size]

I would address your points but unfortunately most of it come with christian assumptions: For instance, in islam, people who did not hear about it's message still have a chance to make Paradise,  The primary belief is the belief in One God with all of his attributes and belief in the messengers including Jesus(A.S.) , only God can make judgement on who makes paradise,

tbaba1234:

Since the atheists have failed roundly to counter my logical explanation for the existence of God:

Let me present another point; this time a philosophical argument/rational deduction

ARGUMENT NO 2

A philosophical arguement for the Quran

William Shakespeare, who was an English poet and playwright, widely regarded as the greatest writer in the English language, is often used as an example of unique literature. The argument posed is that if Shakespeare expressed his poetry and prose in a unique manner – and he is a human being – then surely no matter how unique the Qur’an is, it must also be from a human being.

However there are some problems with the above argument. It does not take into account the nature of the Qur’an’s uniqueness and it doesn’t understand the uniqueness of literary geniuses such as Shakespeare. Although Shakespeare composed poetry and prose that received an unparalleled aesthetic reception, the literary form he expressed his works in was not unique. In many instances Shakespeare used the common Iambic Pentameter (The Iambic pentameter is a meter in poetry. It refers to a line consisting of five iambic feet. The word “pentameter” simply means that there are five feet in the line.) However in the case of the Qur’an, its language is in an entirely unknown and unmatched literary form. The structural features of the Qur’anic discourse render it unique and not the subjective appreciation of its literary and linguistic makeup.

With this in mind there are two approaches that can show that there are greater reasons to believe that the Qur’an is from the divine and a miraculous text. The first approach is rational deduction and the second is the philosophy of Miracles.

Rational Deduction

Rational deduction is the thinking process where logical conclusions are drawn from a universally accepted statement or provable premises. This process is also called rational inference or logical deduction.
In the context of the Qur’an’s uniqueness the universally accepted statement supported by eastern and western scholarship is:

“The Qur’an was not successfully imitated by the Arabs at the time of revelation”

From this statement the following logical conclusions can be drawn:

1. The Qur’an could not have come from an Arab as the Arabs, at the time of revelation, were linguists par excellence and they failed to challenge the Qur’an. They had even admitted that the Qur’an could have not come from a human being.

2. The Qur’an could not have come from a Non-Arab as the language in the Qur’an is Arabic, and the knowledge of the Arabic language is a pre-requisite to successfully challenge the Qur’an.

3. The Qur’an could not have come from the Prophet Muhammad due to the following reasons:

a. The Prophet Muhammad was an Arab himself and all the Arabs failed to challenge the Qur’an.

b. The Arabs linguists at the time of revelation never accused the Prophet of being the author of the Qur’an.

c. The Prophet Muhammad experienced many trials and tribulations during the course of his Prophetic mission. For example his children died, his beloved wife Khadija passed away, he was boycotted, his close companions were tortured and killed, yet the Qur’an’s literary character remains that of the divine voice and character. Nothing in the Qur’an expresses the turmoil and emotions of the Prophet Muhammad. It is almost a psychological and physiological impossibility to go through what the Prophet went through and yet none of the emotions are expressed in the literary character of the Qur’an.

d. The Qur’an is a known literary masterpiece yet its verse were at many times revealed for specific circumstances and events that occurred. However, without revision or deletion they are literary masterpieces. All literary masterpieces have undergone revision and deletion to ensure literary perfection, however the Qur’an was revealed instantaneously.

e. The hadith or narrations of the Prophet Muhammad are in a totally different style then that of the Qur’an. How can any human being express themselves orally over a 23 year period (which was the period of Qur’anic revelation) in two distinct styles? This is a psychological and physiological impossibility according to modern research.

f. All types of human expression can be imitated if the blueprint of that expression exists. For example artwork can be imitated even though some art is thought to be extraordinary or amazingly unique. But in the case of the Qur’an we have the blueprint – the Qur’an itself – yet no one has been able to imitate its unique literary form.

4. The Qur’an could not have come from another being such as a Jinn or Spirit because the basis of their existence is the Qur’an and revelation itself. Their existence is based upon revelation and not empirical evidence. Therefore if someone claims that the source of the Qur’an to be another being then they would have to prove its existence and in this case proving revelation. In the case of using the Qur’an as the revelation to establish Jinns existence then that would mean the whole rational deduction exercise would not be required in the first place, as the Qur’an would already have been established as a divine text, because to believe in Jinns existence would mean belief in the Qur’an in the first place.

5. The Qur’an can only have come from the Divine as it is the only logical explanation as all other explanations have been discarded because they do not explain the uniqueness of the Qur’an in a comprehensive and coherent manner.

I hope you are not saying Qur'an drops from the sky. are you?

ramalot:

Okay, so we agree that reason is based on evidence. However, religion till date has not put forward any conclusive evidence. So i guess its safe to say religious people don't reason, if their evidence is "faith."
FYI religion has only put forward a hypothesis, and all gaping holes have been plugged in with faith.

It is good to think. Provided you are thinking outside your box. If islam tells you to reason based on its own internal "evidence" then you're really not thinking, the word for it is "indoctrination." Real thinking would be to reason along the lines of every option you come across or research.

True. Which is the position any rational human being takes.
As long as you have not compounded conclusive evidence about something, you are entitled to a hypothesis and theory, but don't try to pass off that lack of evidence as an evidence in itself.

I built up my arguments; you respond with assumption that there are gapping holes in my reason,  There are lots of people with blind faith; but i can assure you that my faith is primarily based on reason,  How does asking you to observe nature based on internal evidence?

"Do those who reject faith not see that the heavens and the earth were joined together [as one unit of creation], before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?"

This is based on natural phenomenon not internal evidence::::

It prompts your brain to reason>>>>

bayooooooo:

I hope you are not saying Qur'an drops from the sky. are you?

haha

the question is WHY DID GOD CREATE HUMANS

from the way i see it we are his pets aka toys just like my daughters hampster

GOD is said to be creator of everything and can destroy if he wants to but he watches the devil takes over the souls of his creation

and also burns his creation for not worshiping him WHAT IS OUR PURPOSE TO HIM only watching us from the so called heaven while nature kills us eg hurricanes volcanos etc

whats there for him to gain if i go either way HEAVEN or HELL both way he watches us,  does he enjoy the suffering of people who go to hell and also just watching those who go to heaven roam around in so called paradise ?

finally who compiled the bible with all its verses

ZIM DRILL:

the question is WHY DID GOD CREATE HUMANS

from the way i see it we are his pets aka toys just like my daughters hampster

GOD is said to be creator of everything and can destroy if he wants to but he watches the devil takes over the souls of his creation

and also burns his creation for not worshiping him WHAT IS OUR PURPOSE TO HIM only watching us from the so called heaven while nature kills us eg hurricanes volcanos etc

whats there for him to gain if i go either way HEAVEN or HELL both way he watches us,  does he enjoy the suffering of people who go to hell and also just watching those who go to heaven roam around in so called paradise ?

finally who compiled the bible with all its verses

Read my posts:: most of your questions have been answered,

bayooooooo:

I hope you are not saying Qur'an drops from the sky. are you?

tbaba1234:

haha

Just answer the question, you'll be fine.

humans

bayooooooo:


Just answer the question, you'll be fine.

No, it was revealed to a man

I hope i sparked discussion amongst people and some thought by atheists:

See ya later

tbaba1234:

No, it was revealed to a man

It was written by Man which in all essential points means nothing is unique about Qur'an after all.
Please what's the name of man that eventually penned it?

tbaba1234:

I hope i sparked discussion amongst people and some thought by atheists:

See ya later

It's been nice time chatting with you dude. I hope you become an atheist one day!

bayooooooo:

It's been nice time chatting with you dude. I hope you become an atheist one day!

Impossible mate! Id have to lose my brain first: lol ::: nice try!