|Join Nairaland / Login / Trending / Recent / New|
Stats: 1061095 members, 1231202 topics. Date: Monday, 20 May 2013 at 09:36 AM
|Re: Will Nigeria Break Up By 2015? by Beaf: 1:52pm On May 28, 2012|
Decree 8 had granted each region sovereignty already. The Midwest could be neutral based on the contents of Decree 8 which effectivel made Nigeria a confederacy - I hope you will take time out to read it in full.
That renders all your above arguments basesless.
|Re: Will Nigeria Break Up By 2015? by alj harem(m): 1:53pm On May 28, 2012|
well I discovered judging by Nairaland.
While Yorubas see Igbos as equals, you don't see us the same. Always trying to balkanize us. Thinking of our downfall is a common occurrence here. Also discovered that you blame yorubas for the civil war forgetting that yoruba suffered a great deal to warn the Igbos about Nigeria but of course you betrayed the yorubas and shared power with the north. Things went sour then you blame yorubas again.
You is crazy, but many yorubas are discovering that. While we sympathise with Igbos on the civil war and we were the first group of people to welcome them back, they still have a distain for yorubas forgetting that even port harcourt your so call Ochi agha, Igbos are been discriminated against.
The second largest ethnic group in the Western Nigeria according to Baifra radio are the Igbos, why is that ? Igbos are not even second largest in the South-South so why the SW ? Is it because you perceive us as cowards or because Yorubas see a larger picture by see everyone as brothers.
Some of you run around writing articles and blogs of how cowardly and bad the yorubas are, Have you checked yourselves first ?
That is all for now, I chose to ignore Beaf utterance because he is your son as some of you would put it. He wishes to join Baifra, I for one don't want Lagos and indeed the SW region kwara, kogi (whole of kogi for that matter) to join any Biafra because Tribalisim would kill that country as well just as Nigeria.
We better sit down on a round table to see how this Nigeria would work since that was what Nnamdi and co wanted.
|Re: Will Nigeria Break Up By 2015? by Logic Mind: 1:56pm On May 28, 2012|
You lie again. Decree 8 did not grant each region sovereignty. It granted judicial powers to regions but put executive and leglislative powers to the federal military govt.
|Re: Will Nigeria Break Up By 2015? by Beaf: 2:01pm On May 28, 2012|
The full picture of those years is beginning to crystalise in my mind now:
1. There were pogroms in the North.
2. The Aburi Conference was called to avert bloodshedd and secession.
3. The Aburi Accord was signed by all parties.
4. On getting back to Nigeria, the Aburi Accord met stiff resistance (notable from the civil service).
5. Gowon declared Decree 8 which contained 95% of Ojukwu's demands
6. Biafra was disatisfied and war broke out.
This asks the following questions
1. What was the 5% of the Aburi Accord that was expunged from Decree 8?
2. How fundamentaal was this 5%?
3. How did Decree 8 fit into the agreed framework and timetable for the enactment of the Aburi Accord?
4. Was Decree 8 seen as a betrayal of trust, if so, how right or wrong was this perception?
The above four questions will lead to why so many lives were so unfortunately lost.
|Re: Will Nigeria Break Up By 2015? by Beaf: 2:08pm On May 28, 2012|
Dude, I have no time for your accusations, I have come to see your type as bullies and cowards who prey on smaller groups. Thank God your views are an inconsequential minority among the igbo's.
Go and read Decree 8 thoroughly. If all soldiers had returned to their states of origin, what authority did the federal military govt possess?
Expert civilian advice was either absent or overlooked.
It is possible that Decree 8 breached an agreement, if so, I want to know how. Further, I want to know why Decree 8 was not used as the weapon for secession instead of bullets. Something went seriously wrong.
|Re: Will Nigeria Break Up By 2015? by Logic Mind: 2:34pm On May 28, 2012|
I think you should follow your own advise and go and read the stuppid document of a decree not worth the paper it was written on.
How can you use decree 8 as a weapon for secession when this decree actually bans any region from attempting to secede? It gave the federal govt. the power to impose a state of emergency on any seceding region and take over the entire government and powers of that region. It was decree 8 that gave gowon the power to declare "police action" against Biafra.
Therefore, far from granting any sovereignity to regions, decree 8 actually removed regional powers and put them in the hands of the federal military government headed by abokis. Ojukwu could not accept that.
|Re: Will Nigeria Break Up By 2015? by ACM10: 2:50pm On May 28, 2012|
Beaf: 1. Decree 8 was promulgated by Gowon, it contained 95% - 97% of Ojukwu's demands.This iz total falsehood!
Beaf: 2. The legal meaning of Decree 8 was that Nigeria was effectively broken into 4 independent countries.Are u for real? Gowon entrenched the unitary system of government in Nigeria. Labellin it 'federal system of government' to appease the western region
Beaf: 3. The Midwest minorities clearly stated they would only back the side that was for decentralisation.
This iz first degree falsehood. Beef, where do u source all these falsehoods from? During the Ad Hoc Constitutional Conference held in Lagos on September 12, 1966;
1. Northern region pressed for confedral system of government with provision that each region or state wz to have the right to secede completely or unilaterally from the union
2. Eastern region led by Prof. Eni Njoku pressed for confedral system of government with embedde clause for unilateral or complete separation from the union. Besides, each region should be granted an exclusive right to issue their currency.
3. Western region wz for federal system of government with loose center. But later compromized on their stand in favour of confedration. Awolowo reason being that 'it iz inappropriate to practise federal system of government at that time given the attitude of the North and East.
4. The Midwestern delegation led by Chief Anthony Enahoro wz unflinchin in their resolve to impose the FEDERAL system of government with STRONG centre within the framework of MORE STATES. He closed his speech by remarkin that 'NO CONFEDRATION HAS SURVIVED'. Therefore, midwest cannot be neutral and in favour of unity at the same time.
Beaf: 4. Decree 8 promised decentralisation and decoupling of the country.This iz falsehood. In essence, Gowon deepened unitary system of government in the country
Beaf: 5. The Midwest declared itself neutral as a potential country.Beaf, this is BS! Read the position of midwest at No. 3
Beaf: 6. The Midwest even disallowed federal troops from passing through its territory.I thought that it iz only Alj Harem that iz good in regurgitatin crap. There were some elements of the federal troops stationed at the midwest. Thatz why the physical meetin between Ojukwu and Gowon wz impossible in any part of Nigeria. Therefore it wz moved to Aburi. Does midwest have their own army?
Beaf: 7. The 1966 coup seems to suggest that the top Biafran soldiers wanted a unitary govt (**this is not solid**).This iz another piece of sh1yt. But I will forgive you for putting a disclaimer. The coupists were driven by nationalistic feelin. Though the forces saddled with that of east did a messy job. Ironsi introduced the unitary system of government with the intention to 'remove the last vestiges of intense regionalism of the recent past'. Therefore the person that introduced the unitary government did not take part in the coup.
Beaf: 8. A state of emergency could not be declared in the Midwest (after the invasion) because of decree 8.You can't be serious! A state of emergency wz declared throughout the whole country and Nigeria declared total war. Col. Murtala Mohammed wz put in charge of second division to engage the Biafran forces in the midwest.
Beaf: 9. The Midwest was surprisingly invaded, Ejoor fled to Lagos, Decree 8 was scrapped, the Midwest joined the federal side.Ejoor went into hidin. Nigeria forced the midwest into their fold with overwhelmin firepower.
Beaf: 10. Before the shock invasion, the Midwest had been very friendly with Biafra and a possible ally.C'mon, are u this naive? Plz can u mention some of those friendly overtures? Again, this iz a lie from the pit of hell.
Beaf: 11. The general conclusion of scholars is that there was no need for the war, due to Decree 8.Decree 8 facilitated the war. Gowon wz secretely building up arms and engagin in massive recruitment into the army. Which he quadrupled after the invasion of midwest.
Beaf: 12. Biafra's invasion of the Midwest gifted the FG strategic territory from which to launch horrible attacks.Midwest has alwayz been the territory of the federal government. The invasion only turned minor skirmishes into an overt war.
Beaf:You might be right in a way.
|Re: Will Nigeria Break Up By 2015? by bbpreye(m): 2:56pm On May 28, 2012|
To Beaf, Logicmind and all my fellow political radicals.... EXCLUSIVE!!!
GEJ has been reading our thread...... bbpreye deserves an award for this SEUN are u hearing? Hear GEJ at the democracy day service
The president, who identified terrorism as a major challenge the country is currently facing, said with the prayers of Nigerians and commitment of government, “we will overcome”.
“We are working very hard to reposition our security architecture to cope with the modern challenge of terror. We will overcome,” he said. “Even though some people are predicting the disintegration of Nigeria, let me assure Nigerians that Nigeria will never disintegrate. Our forefathers worked hard to bring us together as a nation. Because of the country’s potentials and resources, no one individual or group can create problems that can disintegrate this country.”
#OCCUPY NIGER DELTA REPUBLIC
|Re: Will Nigeria Break Up By 2015? by PhysicsQED(m): 2:58pm On May 28, 2012|
The 'federal military government headed by abokis' and the 'supreme military council' referenced over and over again in that document are not the same thing at all. Ojukwu was by default automatically a member of the SMC. The federal government was entirely capable of declaring a state of emergency in a region without its consent prior to decree 8 or even the formation of the SMC and in fact did so. And what part of the Aburi accord allowed secession to make the forbidding of it by decree 8 any kind of volte-face?
Ojukwu said in his own words what his problem was with Gowon and with what Gowon decreed instead of the accord so we don't need to start spouting theories after the fact:
I never believed that the difference between aburi and decree 8 was significant enough to warrant so much as a full renegotiation (a few things could have been ironed out after further talks, but the main body of the decree did not need much amending), much less declare secession, but those that believed there was too much difference did what they thought was best for their people.
|Re: Will Nigeria Break Up By 2015? by ACM10: 2:59pm On May 28, 2012|
I'm most disappointed with the bolded. Where do u get these version of history from?
|Re: Will Nigeria Break Up By 2015? by Beaf: 3:01pm On May 28, 2012|
This is an excerpt from a meeting between the Midwest, West and Ojukwu in Enugu. You will find yourself asking many of the questions I am putting forward after reading it.
Why was the bond between the Midwest and Biafra broken by the invasion after that meeting?
Four of us want to assure you that you lose nothing by it; as a matter of fact, you gain a lot in prestige and status. You have spoken about the means of transport to the place.......they can only come by land. If you say that the meeting can be held somewhere else other than Lagos, that can be arranged and we will go back and say, "very well, our friends in the East are attending provided the meeting will be held at Benin, Ibadan, Akure or Ifo and their safety is guaranteed. Nobody can tell when life will be lost but I think, speaking the minds of the entire people of Western Nigeria and Mid-Western Nigeria, that if anybody can at this stage take the life of an Ibo man or an Easterner, or if any outstanding Easterner loses his life by the act of someone else, the whole of the Western Region and the Mid-Western Region will take it as the end of Nigeria. I can give that assurance on behalf of Western Nigeria and Lagos. So, they can come and we will sit down together. Chief Mariere:...We did say that our role is to try to see whether we can live together and retain the name Nigeria and we found ourselves using the words loose federation,...We used it before When your Excellency was kind enough to grant us an audience and have repeated it a few day ago when the meeting of the Consultative Committee of the Mid-West had discussions on it. It may be difficult for us to define
|Re: Will Nigeria Break Up By 2015? by Beaf: 3:05pm On May 28, 2012|
I'm popping out for some time. I'll reply your longer post when I return.
|Re: Will Nigeria Break Up By 2015? by PhysicsQED(m): 3:08pm On May 28, 2012|
@ Acm, can you post a link to the part of the ad hoc conference where secession clauses were requested by the northern region?
|Re: Will Nigeria Break Up By 2015? by PhysicsQED(m): 3:22pm On May 28, 2012|
He's saying (in his own way) that if decree 8 had been implemented, the posting of soldiers within a region would be at the discretion of the members of the supreme military council (which included Ojukwu), rather than at the whim of one or a few persons - because matters relating to the armed forces needed the approval of the members of the smc, which had representatives from each region and representatives from each branch of the military. There could not be an imposition of soldiers in a particular place except by consensus.
|Re: Will Nigeria Break Up By 2015? by ACM10: 3:22pm On May 28, 2012|
PhysicsQED: @ Acm, can you post a link to the part of the ad hoc conference where secession clauses were requested by the northern region?
Get the book 'Gowon' by J. Isawa Elaigwu. There iz the second book, but I can't remember its title nor the authorz name.
|Re: Will Nigeria Break Up By 2015? by Onlytruth(m): 3:25pm On May 28, 2012|
Well at least you have posted something at last, after stalking this thread for MANY DAYS. You basically come here, read, put your tail between your legs and leave. SMH
As for my theory, I could be speaking literally or figuratively. I know you've heard about how Israel fought wars and won immediately after the state was declared independent. You must also have heard about the 6 days war and who won. Those would not have been possible for Israel without strong foreign strategic support. So the extent of your laughter is directly proportional to the degree of your mental derangement.
|Re: Will Nigeria Break Up By 2015? by PhysicsQED(m): 3:36pm On May 28, 2012|
Ok. Thanks for providing a source. On the 'no confederation has survived' statement it is mostly correct, but the Midwest would have gone along with whatever the other regions decided anyways, so the Midwest delegation's choice wouldn't matter anyway. If either decree 8 or Aburi had been implemented the nation would probably have disintegrated in a few years or months following military buildups in each region and disagreements over economic or political issues anyway. Oh well, paradise lost.
|Re: Will Nigeria Break Up By 2015? by Onlytruth(m): 3:40pm On May 28, 2012|
@My brother Logic
Let's not mix things up. Everything you noted in the comment above is correct. If you research my past post on this subject, you'd see that I have always maintained that the march westwards was a march towards Lagos. Nothing more.
BUT, where you and I disagree is in the outcome. That is why I said it was a mistake. BTW I did not say it was a tactical mistake. I said it was a STRATEGIC mistake, hence its eventual failure, and impacts in the war.
You yourself acknowledge that the choice of Banjo to command the force was a mistake. You don't switch commanders so late in the game after Banjo had reneged.
My brother, honestly, a mistake was made, which is why the mission failed. Wouldn't you at least accept this much?
Also wouldn't you agree that the failure of that mission made Biafran secession plan much much harder?
|Re: Will Nigeria Break Up By 2015? by Onlytruth(m): 3:51pm On May 28, 2012|
My passion is, and has always been shaped by a very wise saying by a very wise man. Here it goes:
SHOW ME A MAN WHO WOULD NOT COMPROMISE, AND I WOULD SHOW YOU A MAN WITH ROCKS FOR BRAINS.
Everything in nation building -whether starting a new nation, or building an old one, DEPENDS on compromise.
If this wisdom had been applied, Biafra would have been actualized. The journey of one thousand miles starts with a step.
One of the people from SS here that I respect is one guy called Careytommy. He is from Akwa Ibom and supports Biafra.
His own reason? That it would be easier for Akwa/Cross to secede from a future Biafra than current Nigeria. Smart dude!
That is the type of reasoning that gets results, not my way or the highway type of reasoning.
This is part of why I work hand in hand with the Beaf's of South South. I'm taking a closer look at PhysicQED these days too.Let the debate continue.
|Re: Will Nigeria Break Up By 2015? by Dede1(m): 4:26pm On May 28, 2012|
The so-called Chief Mariere was nobody and his personality carried no water with respect to the debacle between Nigeria and eastern region during the period of interest to this debate. The meeting in Aburi, Ghana constituted the only major hurdle toward peace yet Nigeria used it as a smokescreen to build up formation for the invasion of eastern region. In fact, the last time I checked, Chief Mariere was not qualified to man the door at Aburi, Ghana.
|Re: Will Nigeria Break Up By 2015? by alj harem(m): 4:29pm On May 28, 2012|
You respect them because they said they want Akwa ibom and co to be part of baifra or you respect them because of their OBJECTIVE OPINION ?
Indeed Mazi Eze
|Re: Will Nigeria Break Up By 2015? by Logic Mind: 4:29pm On May 28, 2012|
I don't know if we could agree on this subject of our relationship with our south south neighbours. You think and act like we need them. They take the cue and act like we need them. I say we don't need them. I have given some of my reasons previously. Your stance is making us look subservient to these southerners.
If you are going to lead the igbo people you should at least accomodate our mentality: we do not like being seen as subservient to anybody. We have too proud a history for that.
|Re: Will Nigeria Break Up By 2015? by Onlytruth(m): 4:39pm On May 28, 2012|
@Bolded, NO that is not why I respect them and you know it you maggot. I respect people like him because he understands that if we unite in the East, it would be easier for us to get a Biafra, from which he and his people can secede later if they don't like it. This single act of collective thinking is part of why it seems like the North is indomitable in the Nigerian political games.
|Re: Will Nigeria Break Up By 2015? by Dede1(m): 4:50pm On May 28, 2012|
It is absolute wrong impression to assume that Decree 8 of 1967 meant full autonomy to region as you would want us to believe. First of all, anything coming from center led by Gowon was illegal as far eastern region was concern.
The insinuation that Decree 8 granted the regions sovereignty is one of the goofiest craps I read on this forum. If you believed Decree 8 granted autonomous sovereignty to the regions, one wanders while federal government of Nigeria went insane when Ojukwu and eastern region followed on March 31, 1967 with eastern regional Revenue Collection Edict 11 of 1967 which granted eastern region total control of eastern region revenue including crude oil revenue.
Please stop clutching strew by attempting to defend the indefensible.
|Re: Will Nigeria Break Up By 2015? by Beaf: 4:57pm On May 28, 2012|
Your declaration is far from an argument, bro. I am curious to know how Decree 8 deferred from the Aburi Accord and you haven't helped.
Please post the deferences.
Again, please provide proof. I am thirsty for reasons.
Chief Anthony Enahoro might have been a Midwestern, but he did not represent Midwest interests, rather he was a federal minister representing the federal govt.
The mix-up you've made is dangerous. There were many Igbo's representing the FG too, but nobody would conclude that they represented the Biafran position.
There were no federal troops stationed anywhere in the Midwest. I will repeat again that Ejoors troops were all sent to Nsukka.
It is accepted fact that the total absence of federal troops is what led to zero resistance to Biafra's invasion of the Midwest.
Dude, I am seriously beginning to think that millions of people died because of either a personality clash between Ojukwu and Gowon or that there was a total lack of trust (this is understandable considering the babaric pogroms in the North).
Right now, my opinion is getting swayed to the stance that the war could have been avoided and means found to severely punish the North for the pogroms.
I possibly bungled my state of emergency argument; but I'm consuming tonnes of data concerning the war at the mo, so I might make a slip or two.
Ejoor did not go into hiding, but escaped to Lagos. The reason for his escape was the plan too kill or capture him. When he got to Lagos, the tide changed, FG troops were sent into the Midwest and an inflamed Ejoor joined the federal side.
I have pasted the proceedings of a meeting with Ojukwu in Enugu. You can't have missed it; take particular note of the words of Mariere (an Urhobo man representing the interests of the Midwest). That meeting was rewarded with the invasion of the Midwest. Who broke their word there?
Again, you are backing up my belief that the war was only due to differences between Gowon and Ojukwu. Can you back your assertions up with links and quotes? I want to read this stuff for myself.
Bottomline, the Midwest should not have been invaded. It was a gargantuan error, both in relations and strategy. It directly led to the death of millions.
Also, anger at the invasion of the Midwest and the executions and maltreatment that followed, also did not justify the retaliatory atrocities against the Igbo when the federal troops arrived. Threads like this one help unearth hidden truths (in fact the war should taught indepth as part of the primary school curriculum).
There are reasons why all prior skirmishes came through Kogi and Benue; in fact the war should simply have been kept as skirmishes. Afterall, every war ends in talks.
The fact that the FG responded with skirmishes, not full war shows that there were exploitable gaps.
|Re: Will Nigeria Break Up By 2015? by Shareboyz(m): 5:04pm On May 28, 2012|
I for lyk mek 9ja breakup shaaaaa
|Re: Will Nigeria Break Up By 2015? by Onlytruth(m): 5:06pm On May 28, 2012|
The first bolded is not true at all. What is true though is that, as someone who is determined to tow a DIFFERENT PATH from the ones which were historically proven to be GRAVE MISTAKES made by my fathers in their NOBLE efforts to give us a future progressive space, I seek GOOD alliances, not just alliance for alliance sake. A strong Ogoni support, to me, is far better than a halfhearted or weak Ijaw support. Even the greatest country with the strongest military in the world, sought worldwide alliance before engaging a far weaker country. Strategic alliances makes a war easier to win. The SS is made up of tens of different tribes. It is almost obtuse to address all of them with the same brush. So, let us always remember the ethnic complexity of SS. And NO it does not make us look weaker; it makes us look SMARTER.
The above comment is TOTALLY WRONG AND SHOULD BE REPUDIATED BY ALL IGBO.
You know why? Because that is exactly what the "minority" groups in that region accuse us of. Who wants to be subservient to anybody? Today we say that Hausa/Fulani has been ruling Nigeria, but the truth is that it is the Northern minority tribes that have been ruling. That is called being politically sophisticated. It is not being subservient.
Thank God that a MAJORITY OF IGBO these days don't share in this your chauvinistic opinion. I disavow it totally.
Igbo are the same as every other group in the East. To single us out as people who think themselves superior to others is unacceptable to us and our interests. It is same mindset that some Igbo hold against other Igbo within the Igbo nation. Nobody is, and should be subservient to anybody in the East or in Nigeria as a whole. When we seek Biafra, we seek it because we think (and know)that in Nigeria, there is a master/servant relationship between the North and the South politically. That is how we ended up with many incompetent Northern leaders through the years. If we are serious about Biafra (even an Igbo only country), this mentality MUST die a natural death.
|Re: Will Nigeria Break Up By 2015? by shymmex(m): 5:08pm On May 28, 2012|
But I have a question for: Dede1, Logic Mind, Eziachi (Sir), Onlytruth, and Beaf..
- If the number of Igbos in the Nigerian army before the pogrom was almost the same as that of the Northerners - why didn't they fight against the pogrom, rather than let the Northerners kill them off so easily
*I'm asking a honest question, with no pun intended*
|Re: Will Nigeria Break Up By 2015? by alj harem(m): 5:09pm On May 28, 2012|
shymmex: Interesting thread!!
Very good question.
|Re: Will Nigeria Break Up By 2015? by PhysicsQED(m): 5:10pm On May 28, 2012|
Beaf, read this and you'll understand why Ojukwu rejected it. It was not about his ego/personality or Gowon's but the actual details/specifics.
If you believe that any sub unit of a country whether it's called a region, province, state, or whatever should be able to do whatever it wants without any subordination to a higher federal law - then you'll agree with Ojukwu. If not, then you automatically and necessarily agree with Gowon no matter how many concessions you think you're willing to make.
I think the problem here may have been the different patterns of social organization different groups are inclined toward, but that's just my theory.
|Re: Will Nigeria Break Up By 2015? by Beaf: 5:16pm On May 28, 2012|
Maybe to others with their heads in the clouds at the time, Chief Mariere was "a nobody," a mere minority man, or whatever.
Your statement is one of the most reckless I have ever come across. Jereton Mariere was of massive clout in the Midwest, perhaps you do not realise that he was the its very first governor - he was also the Secretary General of the Urhobo Progress Union.
Sir, your statement is extremely unfortunate and colourless.
Please can you provide authoritative evidence of the military build up by Gowon? That will provide good enough reason for why Biafra seceded, otherwise, Decree 8 was a more potent vehicle for secession (perhaps, there was too little civilian input in the strategy room).
|Re: Will Nigeria Break Up By 2015? by PhysicsQED(m): 5:22pm On May 28, 2012|
The Igbos had lots of mid level officers. Lower ranks were dominated by people from the north central and they were more numerous than the mid level officers. The explanation usually given about why the pogroms were not stopped once they were underway is that too few soldiers (the army was small) were spread too thinly across a large country and not enough could get there in time. There may be more to it than just that though.
Sections: politics (1) business autos (1) jobs (1) career education (1) romance computers phones travel sports fashion health