truthislight:

Guy if you have a family and some dumb guy comes in to mess with them do defend them, get it?

right i get that

But base on nationalistic ideas?
You are on your own.
Peace

well one of d nationalistic ideas if peace, freedom and freedom to pursue ur happiness, well hypothetically speaking, if niger invade nigeria as germany did poland in ww2 and all our borders are closed, what happens to d jw who cant afford a plane ticket? He is suppose to sit in his palour when some soldiers are raping his wife and daughters and shooting his sons and they certainly will come for him next? He shouldnt use a gun if he has one becos that would mean fighting a war right? Something most jw forget is that those nationalist ideas affect us in one way or another.
Peace

truthislight:

there are more things that are wrong with religion than this.

Food and NO food. Unless there is a specific purpose.

please let me inform u about the purpose, your friend max accused d catholic church of celebrating the last supper often instead of yearly like d jw, my post simply shows that d often stand is supported by scriptures and no d yearly stand. The 'anamesis' of d lords supper may not be important in ur church, but in my church it is very important, and i dont like it when accused wrongly.
How are u doing truthislight? Glad to hear from u.
Peace

Maximus85:
tell me one bad news, if what we preach that: God will change this world into a paradise, remove pains, sickness and death, bring peace, joy and happiness is a bad news to you, then i salute you. Or have come to you with teachings that a Loving father like God will burn his disobedient children in a lake of fire for eternity? All you want is go to heaven. To do live with God and his angels. I wish you safe journey.

Here is the bad news:

--- Jehovah's Witnesses teach that at Armageddon, everyone living on earth will be killed except Jehovah's witnesses.
--- World population: ~7 billion; JW population ~ 7 million
--- Do you see how it is that you bring very bad news?
--- 99.999% of people living on earht will be killed according to Jehovah's witnesses. Do you see that that's bad news?

Regarding hell fire:
--- Yes, many Christian groups preach this, but JWs are not the only ones who don't preach it
--- For instance:
* Seventh-day Adventists do not teach hell fire
* Christadelphians, and do not teach hell fire
* Other Advent Churches do not teach hell fire

In fact, the founder of the JW religion, CT Russell borrowed this no-hell fire position from the Adventists.

There is superb scholarly work by some Protestant and Anglican writers who have proposed similar doctrines.

Regarding heaven: of course, you JWs too want to go to heaven, only that you say 144,000 will get to heaven.
You also teach that of those remaining alive today of the that 144,000, 100% of them are Jehovah's Witnesses, and you know them.
Amongst you, you're secretly 'envious' of those you think will go to heaven, and only them are allowed to take the Lord's evening meal.

Your religion is full of bogus teachings and ridiculous ideas.
Your FDS & GB are nothing special.
Your most important teaching were borrowed from other religions.
Your religion habours paedophiles.
You were members of the UN depart. of public information before being exposed.
You're not as separate from the world as you think; and you only succeed to recruit the misinformed into your religion.

Any more?

MyJoe:
I wasn't doing you any favours or defending your religion - I don't care about the religion, only about the truth as supported by verifiable facts. I was just pointing out what I honestly believe is an error. If the person I quoted his post comes back and proves me wrong, I will accept and update my knowledge. See the difference between iron-cast dogma and genuine enquiry?

all the same you are welcome.

I easy fall in love with honesty

but how can it be iron cast when the persons/people can humbly come out and say that there were oversight in consideration of scriptures, that in the light of further evidence this is the direction that the scriptures points to?

Even when jesus disciples misunderstood him as asking them to engage in carnibalism and the majority left he appreciated that the twelve stood behind cus as they said he had sayings of everlasting life(peter said so)

there is time for every thing including knowledge.

Even Jesus told his apostles that he had a lot to tell them but that they cant bear it then but that he will reveal things to them in due couse.

Humility and patience is a virtue that the almighty does appreciate.
Peace

MyJoe: I have observed the group and I don’t think they are particularly harmful to the individual or the society. It may be the case that I have not given enough thought to the matter. Why do you think they are dangerous?

You asked a direct question, I'll answer it thus:

--- (1) I have some limited data on what happens to Christians who become JWs and then discover that the doctrinal purity that attracted them to the JWs is a sham. The final effect - and this conclusion is almost complete - is that they end up losing all faith in God or religion. This is fascinating. There's an ongoing study to figure out why. It is my inclination that research will confirm what is already known: the JW religion casts all other Christians as members of 'Christendom' (this is disingenous and dishonest), and since the JW religion goes to great lenghts to discredit Christendom, most almost all JWs and JW associates find Christendom detestable. Now, when converts/recruits are opened to the true history of the JWs, they see the JWs for what they are, and then they lose all hope, finding no refuge anywhere and having lost all hope in God. This effect can be devastating to individuals whose lives are dependent on believing in a supreme being, and particularly, the God of the bible.

--- (2) Do you know of the JW doctrinal practice of disfellowshipping people? This is perhaps the singular/most destructive doctrine. If you respond that you know, then I will go into details why this makes the JW religion a dangerous one; I will furhter show how this policy destroys lives, distrups families and hasdicaps people who, having being JWs, decide to want to lead a different kind of life.

--- (3) I would classify the JW religion as a high control sect (this is not my invention; many researchers have arrived at this correct conclusion long ago); I do not say this lightly and for effect; there's credible evidence thatthis is the case; this makes the group dangerous. There are many doctrines that characterise this group, including the surrender of natural/fundamental rights at baptism, the draconian no-blood doctrine, the (presently) immutable position that what Brooklyn orders as 'doctrine' is always right: dissent is absolutely unallowed, as is independent consideration of scriptural points ...

There's more . . .

Now, a note: I don't claim that individual rank and file JWs (those whom you're wont to see on the streets) are necessarily dangerous as individuals; no. It is only when acting as agents of the Jehovah's Witness organisation, preaching as they have been indoctrinated, that they assume the mantle of danger. If you are willing to discuss, I could expound on this.

Ubenedictus: right i get that

well one of d nationalistic ideas if peace, freedom and freedom to pursue ur happiness, well hypothetically speaking, if niger invade nigeria as germany did poland in ww2 and all our borders are closed, what happens to d jw who cant afford a plane ticket? He is suppose to sit in his palour when some soldiers are raping his wife and daughters and shooting his sons and they certainly will come for him next? He shouldnt use a gun if he has one becos that would mean fighting a war right? Something most jw forget is that those nationalist ideas affect us in one way or another.
Peace

what did Jesus told his disciples to do when the romans come to invade Jerusalem in 70ce?

He told them to flee to the mountains.

What did Jesus told peter to do in the garden of gethsemene?

As followers of christ we make decision as the scriptures shows he christ would have done and follow his examples though not very easy but that is what it means to be christ like.

If we go rationalising we may go following our own self and not christ.

Take note, God has promise to undo all that satan had and will ever do in this wicked world in his kingdom.

This hope is called HELMENT of salvation(if you know what i mean)

Hope of God's promises enable Jesus to endure even till death.

If it is not reward in God'skingdom of what use is God's love for Abel that God allowed Cain to kill him?

Ubenedictus: please let me inform u about the purpose, your friend max accused d catholic church of celebrating the last supper often instead of yearly like d jw, my post simply shows that d often stand is supported by scriptures and no d yearly stand. The 'anamesis' of d lords supper may not be important in ur church, but in my church it is very important, and i dont like it when accused wrongly.
How are u doing truthislight? Glad to hear from u.
Peace

am fine. Thank you.

Please, lets not go into meal thing here.

Nimshi: The JWs keep [the incidence of paedophilia] silent; yet, the JW leaders have a list of up to 30,000 JW rapists of children in a database

MyJoe: Right. But I doubt any group would publish such things on the pages of its Watchtower or take out newspaper ads to announce them. The church’s child abuse problem is now fairly well known. CNN, ABC and other major networks have done stories on it, if my memory serves me right. If there is ignorance about such matters among the rank and file, I think that should be blamed on their tendency to refuse to listen to, much less, believe anything bad about the church, as the church is equated with God in the subconscious without the person even realising it. Just look at how someone reacted to an extract showing a specific prediction the church made – that it was a forgerry since the church would not be so silly to publish that.

*** No: the organisation does not encourage the publicising of such information. One very important aspect of the religion is to maintain a facade of 'good conduct'; unfavourable news is never publicised. One very dangerous consequence of this is this: when a child molester knownt to the the JW organisation moves from one congregation to another, the elders in the new congregation would most certainly know the fellow is a child molester, but they are not allowed to announce the danger to the congregation; parents with small children then remain at risk. This is one very important/depressing way in which the JW religion provides a haven for child molesters.

*** What the dissenters in the JW religious sought was a reasonable solution to the problem of active paedophilia in the religion; the JW organisation refused any reform. You may know of the most damning of the JW rule: if a child makes an accussation that he/she has been sexually assaulted by a JW, the accused JW,m usually an adult male, and frequently either an elder or a ministerial servant, cannot be investigated nad/or sanctioned until there are two witnesses. This is a throwback to Taliban evidence standards: what child molester would do the act in the presence of witnesses?! Since the JW molester knows this, he exploits it, and can do it for years. This is one reason that when JW child molesters are found guilty via a legal process, the JW organisation is ordered to pay punitive damages; the Napa California cases of 2007 and the 2012 cases are examples. There are other ways the JW system 'encourages' paedophiles.

*** I don't think you're on firm ground to claim this is a failing of the rank and file. The JW leadership attempts to insulte JWs from the outside world, controlling the information available to their members and letting them live in a 'Jehovah Witness bubble'. What posters Maximus85 - who has identified as a JW, and truthislight - who is possibly a JW, or perhaps most likely a JW associate - are doing here is taboo amongst JWs; the Internet is not a tool recommended for JW religious research; this is also the reason the leadership forbids reading literature written by exJWs; of these, Ray Franz, former governing body member and author of 'Crisis of Conscience' is definitely on the do-not-read list. So rathe rthan blaming rank-and-file JWs, I recognise this as a strategic policy to insulate the membership.

*** Re your last sentence above: this reaction is the standard/expected JW response; coupled with the determination not to discuss anything they may find objectionable, particularly from anyone who appears to demostrate an intimate understanding of theri doctrines, teachings and prectices, this is exactly what the Governing Body would hope for.

Nimshi: They also have shares in companies producing weapons of singular and mass destrcution; yet, they criticise war. Do you see the hypocrisy?

MyJoe: I’m not aware of this and I’d be surprised if it is true. I will do some findi

Ok. Do search and perhaps share what you come up with. I am slightly surprised that while you claim child molestation is fairly well-known (I seriously doubt this for JWs in Nigeria), you report ignorance of what the JWs get from Lockhead Martin stocks, say. Now you could do an easy search and share your impressions. This is only one.

Nimshi:

Here is the bad news:

--- Jehovah's Witnesses teach that at Armageddon, everyone living on earth will be killed except Jehovah's witnesses.
--- World population: ~7 billion; JW population ~ 7 million
--- Do you see how it is that you bring very bad news?
--- 99.999% of people living on earht will be killed according to Jehovah's witnesses. Do you see that that's bad news?

Regarding hell fire:
--- Yes, many Christian groups preach this, but JWs are not the only ones who don't preach it
--- For instance:
* Seventh-day Adventists do not teach hell fire
* Christadelphians, and do not teach hell fire
* Other Advent Churches do not teach hell fire

In fact, the founder of the JW religion, CT Russell borrowed this no-hell fire position from the Adventists.

There is superb scholarly work by some Protestant and Anglican writers who have proposed similar doctrines.

Regarding heaven: of course, you JWs too want to go to heaven, only that you say 144,000 will get to heaven.
You also teach that of those remaining alive today of the that 144,000, 100% of them are Jehovah's Witnesses, and you know them.
Amongst you, you're secretly 'envious' of those you think will go to heaven, and only them are allowed to take the Lord's evening meal.

Your religion is full of bogus teachings and ridiculous ideas.
Your FDS & GB are nothing special.
Your most important teaching were borrowed from other religions.
Your religion habours paedophiles.
You were members of the UN depart. of public information before being exposed.
You're not as separate from the world as you think; and you only succeed to recruit the misinformed into your religion.

Any more?

Actually, for one who says he is not an atheist and claims to know the much you know and said that YAHWEH/JEHOVAH is a tribal God of the Jews do you still think it is reasonable carrying on a discussion with you?

I know about disfellowshiping and shunning. For anyone who has been a long time member or even been one all his life I think losing all his friends can be painful. A good point there. But I think most people handle it well and just move on. Many we have spoken to or read seem to.

I think the surrender of one's freedom of thought is bad, but then you can always give it all up. Oh, well, I have tried to and really can't put a gloss on that one. Maybe I will come back to it. On blood transfusion, I think what medical treatment an adult decides to accept is his business. My concern, though, is about the children. But this shouldn't be a problem if legislatures are alive to their responsibility. The courts should have the power to do what is right when children are put in danger by their parents. Some countries have already made progress in this area.

We know how dangerous beliefs can be. For example, many babies have been rap.ed accross Africa because people believe having sex with a virgin cures Aids. Societies seem to face no threats or dangers from having JWs around. Please expound on what you wrote.

Nimshi:

You asked a direct question, I'll answer it thus:

--- (1) I have some limited data on what happens to Christians who become JWs and then discover that the doctrinal purity that attracted them to the JWs is a sham. The final effect - and this conclusion is almost complete - is that they end up losing all faith in God or religion. This is fascinating. There's an ongoing study to figure out why. It is my inclination that research will confirm what is already known: the JW religion casts all other Christians as members of 'Christendom' (this is disingenous and dishonest), and since the JW religion goes to great lenghts to discredit Christendom, most almost all JWs and JW associates find Christendom detestable. Now, when converts/recruits are opened to the true history of the JWs, they see the JWs for what they are, and then they lose all hope, finding no refuge anywhere and having lost all hope in God. This effect can be devastating to individuals whose lives are dependent on believing in a supreme being, and particularly, the God of the bible.

--- (2) Do you know of the JW doctrinal practice of disfellowshipping people? This is perhaps the singular/most destructive doctrine. If you respond that you know, then I will go into details why this makes the JW religion a dangerous one; I will furhter show how this policy destroys lives, distrups families and hasdicaps people who, having being JWs, decide to want to lead a different kind of life.

--- (3) I would classify the JW religion as a high control sect (this is not my invention; many researchers have arrived at this correct conclusion long ago); I do not say this lightly and for effect; there's credible evidence thatthis is the case; this makes the group dangerous. There are many doctrines that characterise this group, including the surrender of natural/fundamental rights at baptism, the draconian no-blood doctrine, the (presently) immutable position that what Brooklyn orders as 'doctrine' is always right: dissent is absolutely unallowed, as is independent consideration of scriptural points ...

There's more . . .

Now, a note: I don't claim that individual rank and file JWs (those whom you're wont to see on the streets) are necessarily dangerous as individuals; no. It is only when acting as agents of the Jehovah's Witness organisation, preaching as they have been indoctrinated, that they assume the mantle of danger. If you are willing to discuss, I could expound on this.

it is obvious that you dont have the capacity to prolong your own life or reward yourself with everlasting life let alone others, but that God that you dont belief in will if people get correctly and follow the guirdliness recorded in the bible.

Why not make yourself more usefull by pointing out were the JW teaching does not agree with the bible.

It like you are not aware that the act of disfellowshiping is a bible commend at 1cor 5:9-13.

"I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person." (1 Corinthians 5:9-13).
................................................

^ whether you like it or not is immeterial, but what the bible says is of utmost important and final with the JW.

If the JW so hate members of other religion why do they go teaching them the bible?

Some people have been JW for upward of 40yrs but they are not delusional.
I just wander what such kind person expectation were when he is fully aware that the JW preoccupation is to preach.

Lies are easy to say.

Is it that the JW make promises of riches to people that dont come to past?

The only demand i know that is compulsory is preaching and most of them so do enjoy it.
Ofcouse paul did that till he died and so was other of christ apostles.

It is then obvious that if one never have genuine love for God but harbours selfish intentions the result will be delusion since God cannot be deceive.

MyJoe: On blood transfusion, I think what medical treatment an adult decides to accept is his business. My concern, though, is about the children. But this shouldn't be a problem if legislatures are alive to their responsibility. The courts should have the power to do what is right when children are put in danger by their parents. Some countries have already made progress in this area.

But you probably assume that even adults JWs are free to make a choice; this is almost certainly not the case, with elders 'hovering' around the ill to make sure they're standing firm with the faith, the issue of free choice isn't truly an option. I differentiate between 'free' choice and informed choice: even many experienced JWs do not understand the complicated doctine/practice schism within their own religion on the issue of blood. Many of them don't appear to understand the implication of the acceptance of so-called blood fractions by JWs; haemoglobin factor VII(I?), is one; the issues around this has implications unrealised. JW literature also misrepresents statistics regarding non-human blood options.

MyJoe: We know how dangerous beliefs can be. For example, many babies have been rap.ed accross Africa because people believe having sex with a virgin cures Aids. Societies seem to face no threats or dangers from having JWs around. Please expound on what you wrote.

You are generalising and being apologetic for the JW religion; I consider this disingenous.

We're not here talking about the r.ape of children across Africa, but specifically about a higly organised religious group providing an environment fertile for the abuse fo children; you do injury to the plight to JW victims by attemting a sanitisation of what we know is a cancer in the JW religion.

You repeat the JW lie that "Societies seem to face no threats or dangers from having JWs around"; on this, those who have had close association with JWs, and especially dissenting JWs who have either diassociated or beeen difellowshipped - and branded as apostates - are quite well positioned to expose the raging cancer of the rape of children amongst JWs; they recogniose this as a threat huge enough for them to risk almost everything to expose it.

Now: we know that the JW religion int he West shores up their ranks through the recruitment of family members, usually children of JWs (the rentation rates are dismal; you're probably aware fo the statistics), but in third-world countries, where poverty is rampant and all sorts of issues enter the mix, new people are being recruited. Have you given a thought to the disruption to family life that would most certainly occur if a woman married to say a Catholic Christian man were to become a JW? I offer this as a thought experiment for you. There are other aspects; I could get to them.

.

truthislight: Actually, for one who says he is not an atheist and claims to know the much you know and said that YAHWEH/JEHOVAH is a tribal God of the Jews do you still think it is reasonable carrying on a discussion with you?

What's your problem with my characterisation of Yahweh as a Jewish tribal god? I could give you any number of references of well-known Christian (and still unrepentantly devoted Christian) scholars who have said the same and even gone into more details you may find unplatable.

I think you're mistaking an assessment (whcih may be disputed) with something you haven't explicitly expressed. And I tell you: it will be a mark of rank irrationality to not discuss with someone because they made a characterisation you disagree with.

Abbreviations:
--- Governing Body (GB).
--- 'Faithful and Discreet Slave' (FDS)

I've placed challenges/notes for you as a defender of the JW religion:

--- JWs are false prophets; they have predicted the end of the world, or, 'this system of things' (a mouthful, but JW code; henceforth: TSOT) many times.
--- JW doctrines are not special; they almost entirely have no unique doctrine. Their most important doctrines are derived from the the 7th day adventists
--- The 'love' JWs claim to be among them is nothing special; other Christian groups show love in even more profound ways
--- Because JWs claim that their FDS is the channel through which God communicates with earth, we are able to show that the FDS have taught falsehood
--- JWs have a doctrine that 'light gets brighter' (meaning: knowledge improves); we can show that their light does not always get brighter, that it may get bright, go dim, flicker, die out, etc etc; essentially: their FDS/GB do not have God's Holy spirit even according to JW criteria
--- Hence: the Jehovah's Witness organisation cannot be God's representative on earth.

Other curious facts that the resident JWs here have not expressly accepted:
--- They are controlled by a group of men based in the US, called the Governing Body (GB).
--- The GB claim to be representatives of a 'Faithful and Discreet Slave' (FDS)
--- This FDS claim to be the remainder of the 144,000 people who will go to heaven (therefore, everyone alive today who will go to heaven is a JW)
--- They reach that all other Christians are fake, and that they are the only true Christians: they will be the ones to survive destructions at Armaggeddon.

truthislight:

(1) Why not . . . [point] out were the JW teaching does not agree with the bible.

(2) It like you are not aware that the act of disfellowshiping is a bible commend at 1cor 5:9-13. Whether you like it or not is immeterial, but what the bible says is of utmost important and final with the JW.

(3) If the JW so hate members of other religion why do they go teaching them the bible?

(4) Some people have been JW for upward of 40yrs but they are not delusional.

I've numbered the (marginally) substantive portions of your post; I respond according to the numbers:

(1) I have, but again; what were they thinking when they:
(a) said the end would come in 1914, 1925, 1975, and 2000?
(b) said organ transplants was cannibalism? (god however changed his mind about 15 yrs or so later)
(c) changed God's position on Sodom & Gomorrah and ressurrection up to six, seven, eight times?
(d) joined and retained membership in the UN DPI while also calling the UN the 'wild beast' of Revelation?
(e) dissociated with the UN after their association with the UN was exposed? Did they think people are stupid & won't notice?
(f) said in 1920: "millions now living will never die"?
(g) teach that Jesus is mediator only for those JWs who will go to heaven

Let me give you this assignment: search for the formulation fot he vows JWs take when they get baptised; compare it with the bible, and add your comment. This assignment is instructive, but you have to attempt it first.

(2) JWs don't only disfellowship, they also shun. But note this: how does the scripture you quote above correlate with what JWs do? How is it different? If you could attempt this, then you would probably have helped yourself.

(3) JWs go to preach because

(a) their leaders have indoctrinated them to believe that the salvation of each JW depends on this preaching (the only exceptions are the so-called remnant).
(b) if you don't preach and report hours on the report card, you will br branded as 'weak'; you probably know the implication of this:
--- you may end up being 'marked'
--- if you're single, you may not find another JW to marry
--- you may become isolated by other JWs in your congregation
--- there's more. . . As a JW, you know your 'reputation' in the organisation depends a lot on your report card which you submit every month

(4) JWs for 40 years? Ok, let's do a little arithmetic with this 40-year JW:
--- this person became a JW in 1972
--- let's assume the person was 20 years when they became a JW; the person will be 60 years today
--- when that person was 17 years in 1969, the JW organisation said this person will never grow old in this system of things
--- when that person was 23 years in 1975, the JW leadership whipped up expectations for something 'big' happening
--- May be this person was one of those who sold their belingings to spend more time preaching
--- If this person listened to JWs, the person would not have attended university:

Watchtower 1st September 1975 p543: No Jehovah's Witness should want to go to college. Rather, work in the Watchtower Organization
Watchtower 1st August 1975 p451: It is foolish to want to be a doctor or a lawyer

--- Just two years after theis person joined the JWs, here is what the JWs said:

Kingdom Ministry May 1974 p.3 How Are You Using Your Life? Yes, the end of this system is so very near! Is that not reason to increase our activity? In this regard we can learn something from a runner who puts on a final burst of speed near the finish of a race. Look at Jesus, who apparently stepped up his activity during his final days on earth. In fact, over 27 percent of the material in the Gospels is devoted to just the last week of Jesus' earthly ministry!—Matt. 21:1-27:50; Mark 11:1-15:37; Luke 19:29-23:46; John 11:55-19:30.
By carefully and prayerfully examining our own circumstances, we also may find that we can spend more time and energy in preaching during this final period before the present system ends. Many of our brothers and sisters are doing just that. This is evident from the rapidly increasing number of pioneers.
Yes, since the summer of 1973 there have been new peaks in pioneers every month. Now there are 20,394 regular and special pioneers in the United States, an all-time peak. That is 5,190 more than there were in February 1973! A 34-percent increase! Does that not warm our hearts? Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world's end.—1 John 2:17.

--- and then, even in 2001: Kingdom Ministry June 2001 for week starting July 2nd 2001
15 min: Youths—Be Wise in Choosing Your Career. This is the first of three Service Meeting parts that will review Scriptural principles relates to supplemental education. Some Christian youths are pursuing secular careers through higher education, which is having a negative impact on their spirituality. This part is a discussion between two parents and their teenage son or daughter. The youth is at a point where a serious decision needs to be made about future goals. Although some may want to pursue financial advantages, prestige, or comforts of life, the family examine the Bible to see what it recommends. (See Young People Ask, pages 174-5; The Watchtower, August 15, 1997, page 21, and September 1, 1999, pages 19-21, paragraphs 1-3 and 5-6.) The youth agrees that it is wise to pursue a course in life that will serve him or her well in achieving theocratic goals to advance Kingdom interests.

--- If this person is isn't delusional, they ought to be privately questioning what they've spent the last 40 years following. I won't say their life has been wasted; no; some JWs are aware and just ignore it; they've spent too long in, and there's no point disrupting their lives in old age . . .

Child abuse, child abuse, child abuse,

how strange

This stuff dont go unnotice?

Men it will make head lines.

Hope it is not just on you head?

Acts 15:29 says take no blood.

Fractions Ofcouse makes up the blood.

Hiv even lives on body fluids even breast milk.

Come up with biblical teaching that is unscriptural of theirs pls.

This thread is getting boring with this.
Gash! Can pass for a nagging wife.
Peace

truthislight: ...

Since you cannot see any false JW teachings from what I've written, I am unable to further assist you.
Recall I did hint at being you (only as a poster here) being constrained in ability to understand stuff . . . but:

1) you could learn a bit from the ongoing discussion witn MyJoe on this thread (MyJoe may well be a JW . . . )
2) it appears you have some difficulty in understanding structured arguments.

Now, youtube is your friend, so I will be recommending videos for you. Here's one Witness talking; 30 years a Jehovah's Witness:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNyg68Gg2MI

Repeat

Lol @ child abuse, child, abuse child abuse, how strange.

@Nimshi
I am aware of most of these things. I was framing my statements to draw you out on that issue because when I think of the JW, dangerous is not something that comes to my mind. I am not defending anyone and I think it's better exagerations and incidental inacuracies and generalisations are avoided in discussions like this because it pushes the deluded further in his delusion. It "vindicates" his position, having heard countless times that he will be "persecuted".

I think you misunderstood the Africa ra.pe thing I mentioned. I wasn't "sanitising" anything. I agree about the freedom to think and choose matter. I have written considerably on it over recent weeks in frosbel's watchtower thread and won't rehash it here.

But at the end of the day, people make their choices. There are people who believe if they don't hand over 10% of their salary every month, bad things will happen to them. Who do we blame - them or their deceivers? Like you, I have argued on this forum that it's their leaders. But I recognise that the other side has a good argument. Philosophically, it is a tough question. What we both agree on, though, is that the deluded should be helped, if possible. But you must keep it whiter than white to avoid firming up the position of their captors.

The child abuse matter is fairly well-known in the West, particularly the US, where it has been reported by the major networks, with people like Barbara Anderson - thanks to her for blowing it open - interviewed in some cases. Three or four years back it was even mentioned in district conventions in the US about the payout to victims - it was already in the media, you see. No, Nigerian JWs know nothing about it since it has not been in the local media. But, still, if something is on the international media and the internet... Now you have brought it here, just look at the reaction you are getting: "it's in your head". That's the individual issue I talked about earlier.

I will report my findings on the investment matter when next I come on, likely on Monday.

Nimshi:

Since you cannot see any false JW teachings from what I've written, I am unable to further assist you.
Recall I did hint at being you (only as a poster here) being constrained in ability to understand stuff . . . but:

1) you could learn a bit from the ongoing discussion witn MyJoe on this thread (MyJoe may well be a JW . . . )
2) it appears you have some difficulty in understanding structured arguments.

Now, youtube is your friend, so I will be recommending videos for you. Here's one Witness talking; 30 years a Jehovah's Witness:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNyg68Gg2MI

my understanding is that christianity is not for perfect people.

Peter was not perfect since he even denied the christ, and so was other of his apostles.

Love for God cannot be an offence.
If i should take the JW that are sacrificing a lot to follow that narrow tight life style of christianity what will i do with all the criminals and all those extorting money from people and those people nonchalant about christ?
What about those living extravagant lifestyle though they dont even know what the bible teaches?

All you have advocated are the easy things that all are doing but the JW seem to be the ones restricting themselves to suit the bible which i think is not easy to do.

I have red the bible from start to finish with notes on Gods views on varying topics that has to do with how God views things.
so, i can build my own opinion as to what the bible says.

Why other MOG claim inspiration they dont follow the bible in all it says.

The JW dont claim that God talk to them but says that the bible is Gods's word.
They defend the bible and accord it respect more than any other religion.
Most other religions i have talked to take some part of the bible and reject some and claim that some part are not real,

meanwhile, some contradict the bible outright and stick to the pride of their MOG.

Are you of the opinion that the witnesses that took their time to dig deep into the bible over and over and are able to bring out information that other churches never bothers are the ones doing the wrong things while the ones that dont even take the bible seriously is on the right?

Why then did Jesus say that one should keep on asking and seeking if the JW effort and interest will be a crime?

You said they copied their doctrine from 7day advantist or so, whichever, it is them that i seem to see doing the teaching and preaching round the clock which made me to wander how christ will be feeling concerning their works?

Christ ones said:
"if they are not Against us they are for us"

i wander if christ will hate them for not supporting wars and being seperat from the world.

Nimshi:
Nimshi: Maximus85: it is quite brave of you to come up here to defend your religion.
I have some questions for you.
1) Why is 1914 very important to your religion? BECAUSE IT MARK THE END OF THE SEVEN TIMES. BEGINNING FROM 607 BCE. Google the year Babylon destroyed Jerusalem. http://www.2001translation.com/587_or_607.htm IN 1914 JESUS CHRIST BECAME KING AND HE SENT SATAN AND HIS ANGELS AWAY FROM HEAVEN DOWN TO THE EARTH.

**** What link? See this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(587_BC) And, for your information, it is bunk to refer to some nonsensical link as proof. I am now convinced you only repeat what your masters in Brooklyn tell you to say; you have no knowledge of the relevant issues.

It is true that many secular historians point to 587/586-B.C.E. as the date for the desolation of Jerusalem. If they are correct, then Daniel and all those who had prophesied that Jerusalem would remain desolate (uninhibited) for 70 years were wrong. Well, a closer look at some Bible prophecies and related events show that the proponents of 587-B.C.E. are rather wrong.

virtually all historians agree that 539-B.C.E. is the date of the overthrow of Babylon, for there is much evidence pointing to this. Therefore, 539-B.C.E. is a pivotal and an absolute date for determining when Jerusalem was desolated.

Daniel 9:1, 2 reads: ‘In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the lineage of the Medes, who was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans— in the first year of his reign I, Daniel, understood by the books the number of the years specified by the word of the Lord through Jeremiah the prophet, that He would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.' - Daniel 9:1-2 (NKJV)

According to the Bible, Jerusalem was a desolate waste (uninhabited) for 70 years. Then if Babylon was destroyed in 539-B.C.E., and Cyrus released the Jews in his first year (as Ezra 1:1-4 tells us), the date that Jerusalem was re-inhabited was 537-B.C.(allowing two years for the eventual release and return of the Jews to Jerusalem). Counting back 70 years from 537-B.C.E. brings us to 607-B.C.E.

But if (as historians say) Jerusalem started its desolation in 587-B.C.E., the 70-years of the Bible record would bring us to 517-B.C.E.

Is it possible that 517-B.C.E. was when the Jews returned? No, for by that time, as both the books of Zechariah (written in 518-B.C.E.) and Haggai (written in 520-B.C.E.) show, the Jews had built houses, planted crops, and were working on the Temple. Why, Jerusalem had definitely been inhabited for quite some time before 517-B.C.E. So, 587-B.C.E. doesn’t fit into the prophecy or the Bible record. If historians are correct, it would mean Jerusalem only remained desolate for about 50 years, and not 70 years that the Bible had foretold.

Therefore, 587-B.C.E. is not the correct date of Jerusalem's desolation, rather it's 607-B.C.E., and it fits perfectly with the Bible. No other date will fit with the Scripture!

Nimshi: truthislight:

you're in the grips of a common fallacy: that's one's belief/position on one specific subject invalidates their position on others. This is a fallacy which religious people use to block access to discussion.

So what if I believe that Yahweh is a tribal god of the Jews? That statement is correct; and I'm not unique to believe it. There're other Christians who believe the same. Does that invalidate their Christianity?

It's excellent you checked my profile, but that's still irrelevant to the fact that you have been duped by the Jehovah's Witnesses:

- The Faithful and Discreet slave are not directed by God's holy spirit
- There's nothing unique about Jehovah's Witnesses
- Jehovah's Witnesses' doctrines are neither unique to them nor correct

These are the facts; and you appear to have been duped by this sect; you are followers of Charles Taze Russell, the unFaithful and inDiscreet Slave, the bungling Governing Body, and a host of other man-made doctrines. Of course, I understand it is hard to come to realise this; but sometime, you have to realise the earth isn't flat. Such is the nature of facts.

It is clear from your posts that you're making the best of constrained abilities; this is noble; but: it is still your responsibility to find the facts.

You can receive help from former Governing body member Raymond Franz; his book "Crisis of Conscience" exposes the inner workings of the JW religion; that is why JWs are forbidden from reading the book. Excerpts from the book are online. It's up to you. But please, stop misleading others while 'preaching' from house to house; it is not right; it is not even Christian.
.

NIMSHI, THIS IS HATRED. YOU MAKE THIS LARGE FINDING ON JWs, BUT I NOTICED YOU NEVER QUOTED THE BIBLE FOR ONCE. PLEASE WHICH CHURCH DO YOU ATTEND? BE BOLD TO TELL US...SO WE CAN ALL COMPAIR. HAVE YOU NOTICED ANY DIFFERECE BETWEEN MY POSTS AND YOURS? I AM ALWAYS TALKING ABOUT THE BIBLE, GOD AND JESUS. I'VE NEVER USED A NEGATIVE WORD AGAINST ANY CHURCH. I BACK MY POSTS WITH THE BIBLE. JW'S ARE THE MOST HATED IN THE WORLD, YOU CLAIM THAT WE ARE SPREADING LIES AND THAT WE ARE DANGEROUS. BUT BRO! I'VE GOT NEWS FOR YOU, JESUS FACED THE SAME SITUATION, PEOPLE HATED HIM, THEY SAID HE WAS TALKING ABOUT A STRANGE GOD, THEY TAGGED HIM "DANGEROUS" THEY HATED HIM AND THEY EVEN KILLED HIM. JESUS SAID THAT HIS FOLLOWERS WILL FACE MORE HATRED AND OPPOSITIONS.
NIMSHI, HAVE YOU EVER WONDERED WHY THE JW's ARE THE ONLY RELIGION GROUP HATED?

truthislight:

am fine. Thank you.

Please, lets not go into meal thing here.

i belive i have already finished and concluded that discussion. The once a year thing isnt true and it is concluded.
Peace

MyJoe: Lol @ child abuse, child, abuse child abuse, how strange.

@Nimshi
I am aware of most of these things. I was framing my statements to draw you out on that issue because when I think of the JW, dangerous is not something that comes to my mind. I am not defending anyone and I think it's better exagerations and incidental inacuracies and generalisations are avoided in discussions like this because it pushes the deluded further in his delusion. It "vindicates" his position, having heard countless times that he will be "persecuted".

I think you misunderstood the Africa ra.pe thing I mentioned. I wasn't "sanitising" anything. I agree about the freedom to think and choose matter. I have written considerably on it over recent weeks in frosbel's watchtower thread and won't rehash it here.

But at the end of the day, people make their choices. There are people who believe if they don't hand over 10% of their salary every month, bad things will happen to them. Who do we blame - them or their deceivers? Like you, I have argued on this forum that it's their leaders. But I recognise that the other side has a good argument. Philosophically, it is a tough question. What we both agree on, though, is that the deluded should be helped, if possible. But you must keep it whiter than white to avoid firming up the position of their captors.

The child abuse matter is fairly well-known in the West, particularly the US, where it has been reported by the major networks, with people like Barbara Anderson - thanks to her for blowing it open - interviewed in some cases. Three or four years back it was even mentioned in district conventions in the US about the payout to victims - it was already in the media, you see. No, Nigerian JWs know nothing about it since it has not been in the local media. But, still, if something is on the international media and the internet... Now you have brought it here, just look at the reaction you are getting: "it's in your head". That's the individual issue I talked about earlier.

I will report my findings on the investment matter when next I come on, likely on Monday.

q

just a little observation.
your analogy on people paying 10% of their monthly salary to a church and the JW is quite an unrelated analogy since the collecting of tith was an exclusive to the jewish livitical law covanant.
The new high priest being christ cannot and does not collect literal material tith for feeding.
In the old arrangement it was men that die that collect tith. Hebrews 7:8 to 12.

so, when leaders go contrary to what the scriptures says it is their error and they bear it and people should see and know that they are not following what the bible says that is if the people had love for God's word. 2thessolonians 2:9-12.

But when people keep going to them for the promise of prosperity/selfish reason the individuals greed is misleading him.

The JW stand by what the bible says.

So, the comparism lags since they operate at different principles/tangents.
Peace

One is off from what the bible says while the other is exclusively on what the bible says.

MyJoe,

1) We would have to disagree on whether the JWs are dangerous or not; I insist they are; whether that's what comes to mind when they're thought of is of marginal relevance. In fact, the argument is sound that they are dangerous precisely because they project and present as 'not dangerous'. And, your familiarity with the issues does not reduce the extent of their danger to others. My concern is more about new recruits, who, for all intents are tricked into the religion by omission/non-disclosure of the full facts prior to their baptism; it is also of marginal relevance whether the omissions are deliberate or not.

2) I don't think I misunderstood you statement about rape/Africa int eh context of this discussion, and there's nothing in your most recent post to encourage a revision of that position. This doesn't mean I am correct, neither that you're definitely wrong. . . I haven't read your comments outside of this thread.

3) It appears you have misinterpreted my comments on culpability: no, I do not argue that the leaders are to blame; I say that the leaders hare the blame - and that the results we see are most likely what they hoped for. In principle: I hold the decision maker primarily responsible. That ordinary JWs are severely constrained does not - as I see it - absolve those 'ordinary' JWs of responsibility.

4) On keeping it whiter than white . . . I do not disagree with you. Also this: the comments I have made are things I have heard JWs in good standing say (re: inheriting fantastic buildings after Armageddon); what I did not add (and perhaps unfairly) is that JWs taking the lead have counselled against such comments . . .

5) It appears we are agreed it is difficult to help dyed-in-the-wool JWs out; the reasons are obvious to me. But I generally do not mind the equivalent of whacking someone with a baseball bat in arguments to wake them up; it may or may not work. I also find that valid extreme statements have served as anchors to help some JWs think. As stated, I am more concerned about new recruits, and especially, those who join for doctrinal purity and things associated with that. I am not of the opinion that the JW religion is dangerous to everyone who joins it (anymore than I would suppose that it is always dangerous to join some religion). As a vehicle for social interaction, even the JW religion could be heaven for some.

6) Yes, the child rape scandals among JWs are becoming well-known in the West; but even at that, the facts are not well known, as well as he true implications. I would be interested to read exactly what was said at the conventions you mentioned. I know the tactic: the JW organisation releases just enough information to satisfy the curiosity of the faithful, but nothing beyond that; they're skilled at this. A look at the official JW website about the most recent case will confirm this. What they write is, er, 'beautiful nonsense'. But these are most important for places like Nigeria where information isn't that well available.

7) You wrote: "But, still, if something is on the international media and the Internet... " --- Perhaps you're overestimating the 'average' JW? I spoke to one two weeks ago (this is quite a smart young man, educated, and quite conscientious), but he still had to talk to an elder in his congregation before he would do a search for information about JWs on the Internet. When he mentioned 'Crisis of Conscience', he said the elder didn't know about it, but got word the next weak that he needn't read the book. I have been surprised only at why he would need the permission to do these things. . . Long story short: that stuff is on the Internet means little, and especially when the official position discourages using the Internet for finding out information about JWs

8') I'll look forward to what you will have to report regarding gains from compromising dividends; I would hope your 'report' will go beyond what I have offered here. And I must write again that it is a surprise, going by the things you've written here that you've not been aware (these're not new; I would suppose this is more than a decade old, and has been on the Internet for that long . . . )

Maximus85:
NIMSHI, THIS IS HATRED. YOU MAKE THIS LARGE FINDING ON JWs, BUT I NOTICED YOU NEVER QUOTED THE BIBLE FOR ONCE. PLEASE WHICH CHURCH DO YOU ATTEND? BE BOLD TO TELL US...SO WE CAN ALL COMPAIR. HAVE YOU NOTICED ANY DIFFERECE BETWEEN MY POSTS AND YOURS? I AM ALWAYS TALKING ABOUT THE BIBLE, GOD AND JESUS. I'VE NEVER USED A NEGATIVE WORD AGAINST ANY CHURCH. I BACK MY POSTS WITH THE BIBLE. JW'S ARE THE MOST HATED IN THE WORLD, YOU CLAIM THAT WE ARE SPREADING LIES AND THAT WE ARE DANGEROUS. BUT BRO! I'VE GOT NEWS FOR YOU, JESUS FACED THE SAME SITUATION, PEOPLE HATED HIM, THEY SAID HE WAS TALKING ABOUT A STRANGE GOD, THEY TAGGED HIM "DANGEROUS" THEY HATED HIM AND THEY EVEN KILLED HIM. JESUS SAID THAT HIS FOLLOWERS WILL FACE MORE HATRED AND OPPOSITIONS.
NIMSHI, HAVE YOU EVER WONDERED WHY THE JW's ARE THE ONLY RELIGION GROUP HATED?

Maximus85: writing in uppercase isn't good.

First: it is difficult to read.

Second: it is the equivalent of shouting. Why're you shouting?

Now, I'll respond to the substantive parts of your post in brief:

NIMSHI, THIS IS HATRED.
*** Actually, it isn't. I do not hate JWs. You don't have to believe it; but were I to give you two pieces of information, you may come to agree; but I do not offer my pearls before hogs

YOU MAKE THIS LARGE FINDING ON JWs, BUT I NOTICED YOU NEVER QUOTED THE BIBLE FOR ONCE.
*** I don't need the bible to make findings about JW history; I only need to examine JW history.
*** You think I can't quote the bible? Well, I can.
*** I can quote the bible, and also spupport all I've written about JWs with references to JW literature
*** Even 'Satan the Devil' as you know him, also quotes the bible, so, it means little.

PLEASE WHICH CHURCH DO YOU ATTEND? BE BOLD TO TELL US...SO WE CAN ALL COMPAIR.
*** This is the eternal problem with JWs; it also shows you're suffering from something. I 'll explain:
*** In establishing the facts, my church is irrelevant; my faith is irrelevant; my beliefs are irrelevant
*** For all you know, I could be a ministerial servant in a congregation close to you
*** Or a former Circuit Overseer, or a former substitute CO, or a service overseer in a congregation, or a PO or sth
*** Or somebody on a test of fitness, or a regular or auxiliary pioneer, or a bible student
*** Or a disfellowshipped JW, or a recently reinstated JW, or a student in a Catholic seminary
*** In short: anything. . .
*** You think staunch JWs cannot astutely criticise the JWs? Well, news, 'brother': yes, they can

HAVE YOU NOTICED ANY DIFFERECE BETWEEN MY POSTS AND YOURS? I AM ALWAYS TALKING ABOUT THE BIBLE, GOD AND JESUS. I'VE NEVER USED A NEGATIVE WORD AGAINST ANY CHURCH. I BACK MY POSTS WITH THE BIBLE.
*** Actually, you don't.
*** But note: I do not quote the bible to exhibit my knowledge of the bible; and I avoid a ping-pong game with a JW like you on some matters of doctrine because I understand where that always leads.
*** I have also noticed that you - and at least one of your fellow JW travellers here have not demonstrated the rigour to examine details. For instance, I would be glad to discuss Trinity with you using the JW Trinity brochure and - and! - an Italian version of the JW Trinity brochure. (And no, you don't need a knowledge of Italian for that particular brochure, but I could tell you why it's significant. . . ) But going by what I've read here, it'll be pearls before hogs; so, no matter.
*** I have posited challenges to address for you as JWs, the most recent is the question about whether the people of Sodom & Gomorrah will be resurrected; this is a simple matter of doctrine; why don't you answer?

JW'S ARE THE MOST HATED IN THE WORLD,
*** That fact is very arguable.
*** A sizable portion of the world don't know JWs exist.
*** By repeating this, you betray your inattention to detail, and a penchant for saying things you've heard from your leadership.
*** And it's clear that at the moment, JWs cannot be the most hated in the world; think about it.
*** I know you the JWs like the title of the 'most hated' in the world; I am pleased to announce to you that the Taliban have now beat you to it ;-)

YOU CLAIM THAT WE ARE SPREADING LIES AND THAT WE ARE DANGEROUS. BUT BRO! I'VE GOT NEWS FOR YOU, JESUS FACED THE SAME SITUATION, PEOPLE HATED HIM, THEY SAID HE WAS TALKING ABOUT A STRANGE GOD, THEY TAGGED HIM "DANGEROUS" THEY HATED HIM AND THEY EVEN KILLED HIM.

*** You're lying again. Who said Jesus was talking about a 'STRANGE GOD'. The Jews knew the God Jesus was talking about. Try again.
*** Jesus said his followers will be witnesses of him; but you're categorial that you're not witnesses of Jesus;
*** Jesus the Christ didn't suffer a persecuting complex; it appears you do.
*** Don't worry, no one will kill you. But you must stop shouting; y'know, for your health and sanity . . .


JESUS SAID THAT HIS FOLLOWERS WILL FACE MORE HATRED AND OPPOSITIONS.
*** Apparently, you haven't: you're still alive.
*** None of your JW leaders in the governing body have ever been executed.
*** None of your leading/top (un)Faithful and in(Discreet) Slave class has been executed (I write that with the caveat that if they have, it may have been in Nazi Germany and perhaps elsewhere, but not as definite targets. That actually means I have to comment that the JW organisation for some time supported Hitler in Germany)
*** So, how can you claim that you're facing more opposition than Jesus
*** Even here on Nairaland, you weren't bothered until you presented yourself and belief as a target

NIMSHI, HAVE YOU EVER WONDERED WHY THE JW's ARE THE ONLY RELIGION GROUP HATED?

*** Wrong question; I don't believe you the JWs are, see my post above; this is a lie your leadership told you
*** and even if you are, it will be for good reasons, viz:

--- Teaching that organ transplants is cannibalism
--- Teaching that donating blood is bad, yet, using products from blood donated by others
--- Attacking the Catholic church on paedophilia while you guys do worse
--- Calling the UN the 'wild beast' of Revelation while secretly cooperating with the UN until being exposed
--- Teaching that God will kill everyone else unless they join your sect
--- Predicting the end of the world several times (while berating those who have done the same)
--- Teaching that your Governing Body has direct access to God (meanwhile, they make decisions by voting)
--- Teaching that you are God's prophets; lying for God, and destroying faith in him
--- And, well: you go disturbing people in their homes, usually without booking appointments; sure to annoy people, eh

Look, I won't blame people for not liking you; but, as noted, you're neither the most hated nor the only hated.

.

Nimshi:
Nimshi: Maximus85: it is quite brave of you to come up here to defend your religion.
I have some questions for you.
1) Why is 1914 very important to your religion? BECAUSE IT MARK THE END OF THE SEVEN TIMES. BEGINNING FROM 607 BCE. Google the year Babylon destroyed Jerusalem. http://www.2001translation.com/587_or_607.htm IN 1914 JESUS CHRIST BECAME KING AND HE SENT SATAN AND HIS ANGELS AWAY FROM HEAVEN DOWN TO THE EARTH.

**** What link? See this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(587_BC) And, for your information, it is bunk to refer to some nonsensical link as proof. I am now convinced you only repeat what your masters in Brooklyn tell you to say; you have no knowledge of the relevant issues.

Recognized authorities accept 539 B.C.E. without any question as the year Babylon was overthrown by Cyrus the Great. The following gives a small sampling from books of history representing a cross section of both general reference works and elementary textbooks. These brief quotations also show that this is not a date recently suggested, but one thoroughly investigated and generally accepted for the past one hundred years.

"Cyrus entered Babylon in 539 B.C." (Encyclopœdia Britannica, 1946, Vol. 2, p. 852) "When Cyrus defeated the army of Nabonidus, Babylon itself surrendered, in Oct. 539, to the Persian general Gobryas."—Ibid., Vol. 6, p. 930.

"In 539 B.C. Babylon fell without a struggle to the Achaemenid Persian, Cyrus the Great."—The Encyclopedia Americana, 1956, Vol. III, p. 9.

"Babylon was captured by Cyrus in 539 B.C."—Yale Oriental Series · Researches · Vol. XV, 1929, Nabonidus and Belshazzar, Dougherty, p. 46.

"The Persians took the city in 539 B.C." (The World Book Encyclopedia, 1966, Vol. 2, p. 10) "In 539 B.C., the Persians conquered Babylonia." (Ibid., p. 13) "Nabonidus, the last king of Chaldean Babylonia, who reigned from 555 to 539 B.C."—Ibid, p. 193.

"The downfall of Lydia prepared the way for a Persian attack on Babylonia. The conquest of that country proved unexpectedly easy. In 539 B.C. the great city of Babylon opened its gates to the Persian hosts."—Ancient History, Hutton Webster, 1913, p. 64.

"In 539 B.C. Babylon, too, was captured by Cyrus."—The Story of the Ancient Nations, W. L. Westermann, 1912, p. 73.

"In 539 B.C., however, Cyrus advanced for the conquest of Babylonia. . . . Sippar was taken without a blow and, two days later, the van of the army of Cyrus entered Babylon."—History of the Hebrews, F. K. Sanders, 1914, p. 230.

"It is not likely that there was a long interval between his [Nebuchadnezzar’s] death and the fall of the Chaldean Empire before the onslaught of Cyrus in 539."—The Biblical Period, W. F. Albright, Reprinted from The Jews; Their History, Culture and Religion, edited by Louis Finkelstein, 1955, p. 49.

"Cyrus entered Babylon on October 29, 539 B.C. and presented himself in the role of the liberator of the people."—The Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary, 1965, p. 193; see also pages 93, 104, 198, 569.

"Nebuchadnezzar had surrounded Babylon with huge walls, but after the defeat of Belshazzar’s army the city surrendered with slight resistance in 539 B.C."—World History at a Glance, Reither, 1942, pp. 28, 29.

"When the Neo-Babylonian Empire fell to the Persians, Babylon opened its gates to Cyrus in 539 B.C. without opposition."—The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible, 1962, p. 335.

"In the seventeenth year of Nabonidus (B. C. 539), Cyrus captured Babylon."—The Popular and Critical Bible Encyclopœdia and Scriptural Dictionary, Fallows, 1913, Vol. 1, p. 207.

"Cyrus the Great, in 539 B.C., added the Babylonian to the other empires which he had acquired and consolidated with magical ease and celerity."—A New Standard Bible Dictionary, 1926, p. 91.

"The city [Babylon] was taken by surprise B. C. 539."—The Universal Bible Dictionary Peloubet, 1912, p. 69.

"539 B.C. marked the collapse of Semitic hegemony in the ancient Orient, and the introduction of Aryan leadership which continued for at least a thousand years. This conquest of Babylon by Cyrus laid the foundation for all the later developments under Greek and Roman rule."—Darius the Mede, Whitcomb, 1959, Introduction, p. 2.

"It was Cyrus, also, who conquered Babylon in the year 539 B.C. and thus became master of Mesopotamia and Syria."—Ancient and Medieval History, Hayes and Moon, 1930, p. 92.

"Nabonidus (Nabunaid) . . . was the last King of Babylon (555-539 B.C.)."—The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1907, Vol. 2, p. 184.

"In 539 the kingdom of Babylon fell to Cyrus."—The New Funk & Wagnalls Encyclopedia, 1952, Vol. 10, p. 3397.

"The Chaldean Empire, with its capital at Babylon (Second Babylonian Empire), lasted, . . . until 539 B.C., when it collapsed before the attack of Cyrus."—The Outline of History, H. G. Wells, 1921, p. 140.

"Cyrus conquered Babylonia in 539 B. C."—The International Standard Bible Encyclopœdia, 1960, Vol. 1, p. 367.

"In the year 539 Cyrus conquers the city Babylon, Babylonia becomes a province of the Persian Empire."—Translated from the German Bibel-Lexikon, edited by Herbert Haag together with associates, printed in Switzerland, in 1951. See page 150 under Babylonia.

With the date 539 B.C.E. so firmly fixed and agreed to by so many scholars, now let's consider the following scriptures:

'And this whole land shall be a desolation and an astonishment, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. ‘Then it will come to pass, when seventy years are completed, that I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the Chaldeans, for their iniquity, ’ says the Lord; ‘and I will make it a perpetual desolation.' -Jeremiah 25:11-12 (NKJV)

'For thus says the Lord: After seventy years are completed at Babylon, I will visit you and perform My good word toward you, and cause you to return to this place.' -Jeremiah 29:10 (NKJV)

"Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia" (at least before the spring of 537-B.C.E.) ..."the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia"... He issued the famous edict permitting the Jews to return and rebuild God’s temple. - Read Ezra 1:1-4 (NKJV)

It is now a simple formula to determine when the seventy years began. One has only to add 70 to 537 to get 607.

Now, let compare the two dates (587 and 607)-B.C.E. to see which is in harmony with the scriptures.

607 - 537 = 70..........................................number of years that the Jews were in exile (it's in harmony with the scriptures)
The book of Haggai and Zechariah were written in 520B.C.E. and 518-B.C.E. respectively (years after the Jews had returned to their homeland). Biblical chronology of 607-B.C.E. fits in perfectly with the above dates.

587 - 537 = 50...........................................number of years that the Jews were in exile, according to secular chronology. (False and it's out of harmony with the scriptures).
Again, if 587 is correct, the desolation would have ended in 517-B.C.E. (587-70 = 517), when houses had already been built and crops grown for some 20 years in Jerusalem before their return.This would also suggest the Bible books of Haggai and Zechariah which were written in 520B.C.E. and 518-B.C.E. respectively, were written before the return of the Jews.(Huge discrepancy!)

Considering the above, 607-B.C.E. [/b]is the only date that fits perfectly with the Bible as the date for desolation of Jerusalem, [b]not 587-B.C.E.

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Fresky : I have one question for you:

In what year did the JWs recognise 607 BCE as the date for the destruction of Jerusalem?

If you don't know, go and find out and return.

Don't copy/paste anything yet, just answer that question with a date, and the reference from Watchtower literature.

That ought to put a break on the repetitive stuff you've been posting.

So:

In what year did the JWs recognise 607 BCE as the date for the destruction of Jerusalem?

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Nimshi: .

Fresky : I have one question for you:

In what year did the JWs recognise 607 BCE as the date for the destruction of Jerusalem?

If you don't know, go and find out and return.

Don't copy/paste anything yet, just answer that question with a date, and the reference from Watchtower literature.

That ought to put a break on the repetitive stuff you've been posting.

So:

In what year did the JWs recognise 607 BCE as the date for the destruction of Jerusalem?

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First and foremost, thank you very much for unknowingly giving people opportunity to gain more truth. I strongly believe you know what I mean.

I know its pains you to the marrow to see those posts. I promise you, I will keep on posting same till you show the world how 587-B.C.E. blends perfectly with various scriptures that relate to it

For your information, I don't easily get distracted, for i know that is your intention.

Should your common sense not tell you to first of all prove false what I have posted and Justify 587-B.C.E. scripturally?

Remember, lots of people know Jehovah's witnesses already. Many live with them and have them as their good friends. They have witnesses around them. The world's governmental authorities know how law-abiding they are. Hence, your lies give me little or no concern. What mattered most to me is what I have done. I am still anxiously waiting to see how you will rise and fall in a bit to justifying your 587-B.C.E.

Note: better do, for if you fail, you are rather proving to the world who you truly are.

@ nimshi

You said that the JW settled people that are child abuser

lies!

unlike catholic priest that are custodian of parishes, the JW dot have such individuals in any place that stay under the control of the JW and become their liability.

The only hosting is the bathel that is highly restrictive.

All members of the JW are independent and they take care of their self and their businesses, no how a members crime will translate to be the problem of the organization.

This we all know that their organization is different from others cus they dont have pastors and priest In cathedrals.

How then can a members offence be an offence that their organization will pay for?

Bogus, BONUS, BONUS. Lies

Nimshi: .

Fresky : I have one question for you:

In what year did the JWs recognise 607 BCE as the date for the destruction of Jerusalem?

If you don't know, go and find out and return.

Don't copy/paste anything yet, just answer that question with a date, and the reference from Watchtower literature.

That ought to put a break on the repetitive stuff you've been posting.

So:

In what year did the JWs recognise 607 BCE as the date for the destruction of Jerusalem?

.

the answer given to you is so ACCURATE that all that is reading this thread can see and know that your basis for attacking the JW is fraudulent and lies.

Did you accept the answer no, since the truth is not and never your interest but to do the desire of your father who is a liar and the father of the lie satan himself.

How can you have remain in the truth? No, not visible since it takes honesty of mind to see the truth and love it.

After the answer of 607 BCE has been given you look at the next childish question you are asking ^^^^

is 607BCE a personal thing of the JW or it is a bible thing?
The JW are simply saying that bible properties are accurate and not that it is the property of JW in brooklyn.

The question of when they adopted it is of what significant? ^^^^
Hatred has eaten you up and blinded you, If you cant beat them join them.

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Links to Jehovah's Witnesses' child r.ape enlightenment

These are links to www.silentlambs.org, an organisation floated by Jehovah's Witnesses tired of the policy of their organisation as a haven for child r.apists

For seeking reform, the Jehovah's Witness organisation booted these people asking for justice out of their congregations

1) http://silentlambs.org/OaklandLawsuit.htm - $21 million punitive damages against Watchtower

2) http://silentlambs.org/Mcleantoronto.htm - Ministerial Servant Jehovah's Witness hiding from police for raping children

3) http://silentlambs.org/Kozelisky.htm - Ministerial Servant, son of City Overseer, molester of childtren

4) http://silentlambs.org/Brotherallen.htm - Jehovah's Witness Brother Allen

5) http://silentlambs.org/BrotherCook.htm - Jehovah's Witness Brother Cook

6) http://silentlambs.org/Perfettobustedagain.htm - Jehovah's witness Brother Perfetto

Note: Jehovah's Witnesses do not prevent known rapists of children to carry a bag and 'preach' from house to house

Note: the above cases are reports from Western countries

Note: the problem exists in Nigeria too

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Remember: "This story illustrates the key issue with p.aedophiles. They never stop and the average molester will hurt over 200 children in their life time. "

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Nimshi: .
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Links to Jehovah's Witnesses' child r.ape enlightenment

These are links to www.silentlambs.org, an organisation floated by Jehovah's Witnesses tired of the policy of their organisation as a haven for child r.apists

For seeking reform, the Jehovah's Witness organisation booted these people asking for justice out of their congregations

1) http://silentlambs.org/OaklandLawsuit.htm - $21 million punitive damages against Watchtower

2) http://silentlambs.org/Mcleantoronto.htm - Ministerial Servant Jehovah's Witness hiding from police for raping children

3) http://silentlambs.org/Kozelisky.htm - Ministerial Servant, son of City Overseer, molester of childtren

4) http://silentlambs.org/Brotherallen.htm - Jehovah's Witness Brother Allen

5) http://silentlambs.org/BrotherCook.htm - Jehovah's Witness Brother Cook

6) http://silentlambs.org/Perfettobustedagain.htm - Jehovah's witness Brother Perfetto

Note: Jehovah's Witnesses do not prevent known rapists of children to carry a bag and 'preach' from house to house

Note: the above cases are reports from Western countries

Note: the problem exists in Nigeria too

.

Remember: "This story illustrates the key issue with p.aedophiles. They never stop and the average molester will hurt over 200 children in their life time. "

.

Is it not glaring that you are shying away from something?

What stops you from answering my post? The source you are feeding from fits you perfectly - sites from apostates aimed at tarnishing the image of the witnesses.

Prove you are not a liar by answering the question that arose from some of your previous links.

Like I promised you, I will keep reposting it so that all will know what you are running away from.