Noetic u need to tighten the bolt before the nut loose cuz u are acting strangely like ? i no talk, use ur head man

Abuzola:

Noetic u need to tighten the bolt before the nut loose cuz u are acting strangely like ? i no talk, use ur head man

@noetic, why is dat u like criticism.in the quran and bible everything we say or do we have to true knowledge and fact.if you are seek for truth and fact. i ve no trouble with u but guy,i pray you dnt get the rut of Almight Allah very soon.cos the way u re going, hmnnnnnnnnn, , am trying not to pity u.salam

Assalamu alaikum,

Umar bn Al-Khattab (R.A) is reported to have said that Allah's Messenger (P.B.U.H) said:

"Do not exaggerate in praise of me just as the Christians exaggerated in the praise of Jesus, son of Mary. I am but a slave, so call me Allah's slave and His Messenger."

(Al-Bukhari and Muslim)

Narrated Anas(rz):
Allah's Apostle (s.a.s) said: 1.
"From among the portents of the Hour are (the following):
−1. Religious knowledge will be taken away (by the death of Religious learned men).
−2. (Religious) ignorance will prevail.
−3. Drinking of Alcoholic drinks (will be very common).
−4. There will be prevalence of open illegal sexual intercourse. (bukhari)

2:
Women will increase in number and men will decrease in number so much so that fifty women will be looked after by one man. (bukhari)

3. Narrated `Abdullah bin `Amr bin Al−`As(rz): I heard Allah's Apostle (s.a.s) saying, "Allah does not take away the knowledge, by taking it away from (the hearts of) the people, but takes it away by the death of the religious learned men till when none of the (religious learned men) remains, people will take as their leaders ignorant persons who when consulted will give their verdict without knowledge. So they will go astray and will lead the people astray." (bukhari)

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) said, "Any person who takes a bath on Friday like the bath of Janaba and then goes for the prayer (in the first hour i.e. early), it is as if he had sacrificed a camel (in Allah's cause); and whoever goes in the second hour it is as if he had sacrificed a cow; and whoever goes in the third hour, then it is as if he had sacrificed a horned ram; and if one goes in the fourth hour, then it is as if he had sacrificed a hen; and whoever goes in the fifth hour then it is as if he had offered an egg. When the Imam comes out (i.e. starts delivering the Khutba), the angels present themselves to listen to the Khutba."

prettycute:

@noetic, why is dat u like criticism.in the quran and bible everything we say or do we have to true knowledge and fact.if you are seek for truth and fact. i ve no trouble with u but guy,i pray you dnt get the rut of Almight Allah very soon.cos the way u re going, hmnnnnnnnnn, , am trying not to pity u.salam

the wrought of allah?
u honestly have no idea who allah is, if u do, u wouldnt say that which u just said.

All i do is just to asm questions and all i expect are answers . . . , when intelligent answers are not fortcoming, is it not safe for me to reach a conclusion?

I wonder why u are acting like good and decent person whereas u are the opposite or are u a changed person, if so i congratulate u

Assalamu alaikum,

Ibn Umar (R.A) narrated that Allah's Messenger (P.B.U.H) said:

"If anyone makes a request in Allah's Name, give it to him; if anyone seeks refuge by Allah's Name, give him refuge; if anyone gives you an invitation, accept it; and if anyone does you a kindness, recompensate him; but if you have not the means to do so, pray for him until you feel that you have compensated him."

[Abu Dawud and An Nasa'i mentioned this Hadith and graded it Sahih (Sound)]

Abuzola:

I wonder why u are acting like good and decent person whereas u are the opposite or are u a changed person, if so i congratulate u

u are entitled to ur opinion. I am not defined by ur opinion.

littleb:

Narrated Anas(rz):
Allah's Apostle (s.a.s) said: 1.
"From among the portents of the Hour are (the following):
−1. Religious knowledge will be taken away (by the death of Religious learned men).
−2. (Religious) ignorance will prevail.
−3. Drinking of Alcoholic drinks (will be very common).
−4. There will be prevalence of open illegal sexual intercourse. (bukhari)

2:
Women will increase in number and men will decrease in number so much so that fifty women will be looked after by one man. (bukhari)

3. Narrated `Abdullah bin `Amr bin Al−`As(rz): I heard Allah's Apostle (s.a.s) saying, "Allah does not take away the knowledge, by taking it away from (the hearts of) the people, but takes it away by the death of the religious learned men till when none of the (religious learned men) remains, people will take as their leaders ignorant persons who when consulted will give their verdict without knowledge. So they will go astray and will lead the people astray." (bukhari)

Littleb, I love this haddeth u posted. can I ask u some questions?

noetic2:


Littleb, I love this haddeth u posted. can I ask u some questions?

Your questions are always welcome, even when you don't seek for permission. Islam welcome you always, just be sincere.

littleb:

Your questions are always welcome, even when you don't seek for permission. Islam welcome you always, just be sincere.

Thank you.


The religious learned men, how did they obtain their own knowledge? what stops others from obtaining this knowledge just as they got theirs?
can u define ignorance, in the context of this haddeth?
is temporary marriage in islam not considered as open illegal sexual intercourse in ur opinion?

Thanks for the confidence you place in me on your questions, I would try and answer your questions in my knowledge capacity.

noetic2:

Thank you.
The religious learned men, how did they obtain their own knowledge? what stops others from obtaining this knowledge just as they got theirs?

Learning in Islam has not changed since first day of Islamic calender. There are Hadiths where the prophet MUhammad stated angel Gabriel was his teacher and he is in turn the  teacher to his followers(sahabah). Also, the sahabah were teachers of all other followers. So the knowledge continue spreading.

can u define ignorance, in the context of this haddeth?

Ignorance will prevail is very clear in the third hadith. Few people will be seeking for religious knowledge  while the most learned religious men will be diminished in number. People will much more relying on what someone says rather than reading it from book Quran and Hadith. And when people start judging not from book is relatively a prevalent ignorance of the last hour.

is temporary marriage in islam not considered as open illegal sexual intercourse in ur opinion?

Temporary marraige used to be arabian practices before Islam. It was still permitted in the earlier stage of Islam while on expedition with the prophet as it was difficult to disengage the arabian from what they used to at ago, it was later pronounced forever forbidden by the prophet, similar case is the issue of alcohol

More power to your elbow @mushlin, littleleb, my great abuzola and brother jatar. Mr noetic, i also greet you and believed your question has been answered rightly. @noetic, some of your questions makes sense but the manner you ask it sometimes 'll not give anybody allowance to answer you. You're in the midst of scholars and every grudges can be settled with the noble qur'an and hadeeth. @other brothers, lets be patient while we answer questions cos we are not equally endowed in knowledge, if someone can ask a question meaningfully, another person might not have the akil to ask. Please lets take note. Jazakun llah khaeran fiduniya walahira.

littleb:

Thanks for the confidence you place in me on your questions, I would try and answer your questions in my knowledge capacity.
Learning in Islam has not changed since first day of Islamic calender. There are Hadiths where the prophet MUhammad stated angel Gabriel was his teacher and he is in turn the  teacher to his followers(sahabah). Also, the sahabah were teachers of all other followers. So the knowledge continue spreading.

Since we both now understand that knowledge is learnt and transmittable by education, . . . .how exactly does the prophecy in ur haddith get fulfilled, since new scholars are expected to learn from the old ones? is this prophecy not INVALID? isnt it meaningless?

Ignorance will prevail is very clear in the third hadith. Few people will be seeking for religious knowledge  while the most learned religious men will be diminished in number. People will much more relying on what someone says rather than reading it from book Quran and Hadith. And when people start judging not from book is relatively a prevalent ignorance of the last hour.

ur answer to my question, reveals that the prophecy of the haddith is not valid. If people would not subscribe to the Quran and haddith, that should be because they are either non-muslims or muslims who have realised the very truth.

Take for instance. . . . The koran and haddith asks that I behead, amputate, kill, ostracise, annihilate people (muslims, non-muslims and apostates).
does my refusal to obey this inhuman doctrine amount to ignorance on my part?

Temporary marraige used to be arabian practices before Islam. It was still permitted in the earlier stage of Islam while on expedition with the prophet as it was difficult to disengage the arabian from what they used to at ago, it was later pronounced forever forbidden by the prophet, similar case is the issue of alcohol

lying is not allowed.

This marriage malady was permitted by mohammed.
While we were in an army, Allah's Apostle came to us and said, "You have been allowed to do the Mut'a (marriage), so do it." Salama bin Al-Akwa' said: Allah's Apostle's said, "If a man and a woman agree (to marry temporarily), their marriage should last for three nights, and if they like to continue, they can do so; and if they want to separate, they can do so." I do not know whether that was only for us or for all the people in general. Abu Abdullah (Al-Bukhari) said: 'Ali made it clear that the Prophet said, "The Mut'a marriage has been cancelled (made unlawful)."bukhari 062.052.

(Shakir): "And all married women except those whom your right hands possess (this is) God's ordinance to you, and lawful for you are (all women) besides those, provided that you seek (them) with your property, taking (them) in marriage not committing fornication.[b] Then as to those whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; [/b]surely God is Knowing, Wise."


The whole essence of referring u to the temporary marriage is to establish that sexual immoral decadence existed right from the time of mohammed, in the islamic era of allah.
since this decadence has existed right from mohammed's era, dont u consider this haddith prophecy to be invalid?

@neotic2:

Since we both now understand that knowledge is learnt and transmittable by education,  . . . .how exactly does the prophecy in ur haddith get fulfilled, since new scholars are expected to learn from the old ones?  is this prophecy not INVALID? isnt it meaningless?

The prophecy is being fullfilled. Lets go through the hadeeth once again:

"Narrated `Abdullah bin `Amr bin Al−`As(rz): I heard Allah's Apostle (s.a.s) saying, "Allah does not take away the knowledge, by taking it away from (the hearts of) the people, but takes it away by the death of the religious learned men till when none of the (religious learned men) remains, people will take as their leaders ignorant persons who when consulted will give their verdict without knowledge. So they will go astray and will lead the people astray." (bukhari)"

Now, exercise patient to compare with another narration:

On the authority of Abu Hurairah (may Allah be pleased with him) who said that the Companions were sitting with the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) when a Bedouin came to the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) and asked him about the exact date of the Hour. The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) however proceeded with his speech to the audience. Some of the audience thought that the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) heard what the man said but disliked his question and some others thought that he did not hear it. When the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) finished his talk, he said: "Where is the one who asked about the date of the Hour? The man informed him of his existence. The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) then said: "If the trust is betrayed and neglected, then expect the coming of the Hour". The man further asked about the trust and how it can be wasted or betrayed. The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said: "When the matter is entrusted to those who are unqualified to implement its duties, then wait for the Hour"

Now I asked you a question; what is the cognate relation between the two bold statement?

Analogy of seeking religious knowledge is similar to the way we learn from basic to high school. Knowledge is not about sitting down with one scholar, meaning when he dies there will be no continuation. The hadith is describing that people seeking for religious knowledge will reduced in number while the old knowledgible is diminishing via death.

ur answer to my question, reveals that the prophecy of the haddith is not valid. If people would not subscribe to the Quran and haddith, that should be because they are either non-muslims or muslims who have realised the very truth.

Take for instance. . . . The koran and haddith asks that I behead, amputate, kill, ostracise, annihilate people (muslims, non-muslims and apostates).
does my refusal to obey this inhuman doctrine amount to ignorance on my part?

In the first paragraph of your response actually is the revelation of how people will transformed the falsehood to be truth which is also part of the sign of last hour. From what you and I belief, there are lot of prophecies regarding the signs of last hour and one of them is that people will prefer to embrace falsehood than truth. So, if people could not subscribe to Quran and Hadith, clearly means they embrace thier shelfish desires which is nothing but falsehood.

Secondly, the commands to kill or amputate is not accorded except for the offendants after all avenue to commits such crime has been blocked through provision. Who will steal when he/she is provided with daily needs. Who will commits murder once he knows he would be killed instead. There are criminal laws everywhere, not only in Islam. Will you tell me according to your bible if nobody has ever being killed on Gods order? Even under common laws, does people not being sentence to death? Why are you concern about Islamic laws? Why cant you challenge the common laws? Have you ever travel to any Islamic countries where Sharia is being used judiciously, have you ever imagine how peaceful they are, even with all these laws?

lying is not allowed.

I am not telling you lies. You only need to reflect on what you read and not transforming it.

This marriage malady was permitted by mohammed.
While we were in an army, Allah's Apostle came to us and said, "You have been allowed to do the Mut'a (marriage), so do it." Salama bin Al-Akwa' said: Allah's Apostle's said, "If a man and a woman agree (to marry temporarily), their marriage should last for three nights, and if they like to continue, they can do so; and if they want to separate, they can do so." I do not know whether that was only for us or for all the people in general. Abu Abdullah (Al-Bukhari) said: 'Ali made it clear that the Prophet said, "The Mut'a marriage has been cancelled (made unlawful)."bukhari 062.052.

Follow me on this hadith:
"We were on expedition with meassange of Allah(PBH) and did not have our wives with us, so we asked him,'Shuld we not castrate ourselves?' He forbade us to do so but permitted us to contract marraige with a woman up to a specified date, giving her a garment as a dower(mahr)"

Temporay marraige provide a solution to the dilemma in which both the weak and the strong found themselves as in the case of the above hadith. Lets recall that there was a gradual course in prohibiting alcohol as this evil was widespread and deeply rooted in the arabian time of ignorance. In the same manner, prophet Muhammd(PBH) adopted a course of gradulaism in the matter of sex, at first permitting temporary marraige as a step leading away from fornication and adultery and at the same time coming closer to the parmanent marraige relationship. He then prohibited it aboslutely, as has been reported by Ali as in the hadeeth you quoted and many other companions.

Al-Juhani said, "Before leaving Makkah the messange of Allah(PBH) prohibited temporary marraige" in another version of the hadith, there is prophet words: "Allah has made it haram untill the Day of Ressurection"
In contrary, only Ibn Abbas hold that temporary can still be permitted under adverse condition. However, when he later saw people engaging in it without necessity, he withdrew his oppinion, reverse it in totality.

@neotic: Can you furnish me with more proof other than what I have explained regarding temporary marraige as you think it is still permitted by Islam and who amongst the muslims sect projecting it as Halal?

(Shakir): "And all married women except those whom your right hands possess (this is) God's ordinance to you, and lawful for you are (all women) besides those, provided that you seek (them) with your property, taking (them) in marriage not committing fornication. Then as to those whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely God is Knowing, Wise."

Can you tell me your insinuation from this verse?

The whole essence of referring u to the temporary marriage is to establish that sexual immoral decadence existed right from the time of mohammed, in the islamic era of allah.
since this decadence has existed right from mohammed's era, dont u consider this haddith prophecy to be invalid?

Prophet Muhammad met the impurities on the part of arabian and left them as pure being with no fornication and adultery. In the whole continents, where and amongst which communities, religious do you have high sexual immoralities and its trends?

littleb:

@neotic2:
The prophecy is being fullfilled. Lets go through the hadeeth once again:

"Narrated `Abdullah bin `Amr bin Al−`As(rz): I heard Allah's Apostle (s.a.s) saying, "Allah does not take away the knowledge, by taking it away from (the hearts of) the people, but takes it away by the death of the religious learned men till when none of the (religious learned men) remains, people will take as their leaders ignorant persons who when consulted will give their verdict without knowledge. So they will go astray and will lead the people astray." (bukhari)"

Now, exercise patient to compare with another narration:

On the authority of Abu Hurairah (may Allah be pleased with him) who said that the Companions were sitting with the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) when a Bedouin came to the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) and asked him about the exact date of the Hour. The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) however proceeded with his speech to the audience. Some of the audience thought that the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) heard what the man said but disliked his question and some others thought that he did not hear it. When the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) finished his talk, he said: "Where is the one who asked about the date of the Hour? The man informed him of his existence. The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) then said: "If the trust is betrayed and neglected, then expect the coming of the Hour". The man further asked about the trust and how it can be wasted or betrayed. The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said: "When the matter is entrusted to those who are unqualified to implement its duties, then wait for the Hour"

Now I asked you a question; what is the cognate relation between the two bold statement?

The cognate of both haddith is irrelevant at this stage.

In the original haddith u stated that :

1. Religious knowledge will be taken away (by the death of Religious learned men).

and we both agreed that knowledge is transmitted by education . . . . . if the scholars die, would the knowledge they processed not have been transmitted to new scholars?

I believe that the prophecy in the haddith is very FALSE. we have both established that knowledge is transmittable by education, so by educating the next generation of scholars it is IMPOSSIBLE for religious knowledge to be taken away.

Analogy of seeking religious knowledge is similar to the way we learn from basic to high school. Knowledge is not about sitting down with one scholar, meaning when he dies there will be no continuation. The hadith is describing that people seeking for religious knowledge will reduced in number while the old knowledgible is diminishing via death.

Nope.

The haddith simply implied that the teachers who are scholars, will die and as such knowledge will diminish. But since we have both established that islamic knowledge is transmitted from old scholar to new scholars by education, it is IMOSSIBLE for such knowledge to diminish.

In the first paragraph of your response actually is the revelation of how people will transformed the falsehood to be truth which is also part of the sign of last hour. From what you and I belief, there are lot of prophecies regarding the signs of last hour and one of them is that people will prefer to embrace falsehood than truth. So, if people could not subscribe to Quran and Hadith, clearly means they embrace thier shelfish desires which is nothing but falsehood.

Secondly, the commands to kill or amputate is not accorded except for the offendants after all avenue to commits such crime has been blocked through provision. Who will steal when he/she is provided with daily needs. Who will commits murder once he knows he would be killed instead. There are criminal laws everywhere, not only in Islam. Will you tell me according to your bible if nobody has ever being killed on Gods order? Even under common laws, does people not being sentence to death? Why are you concern about Islamic laws? Why cant you challenge the common laws? Have you ever travel to any Islamic countries where Sharia is being used judiciously, have you ever imagine how peaceful they are, even with all these laws?

u did not answer my question. would my refusal to kill, amputate, behead, ostracise and annihilate people at the commandment of allah be regarded to as ignorance?

U stated that people's disregard for the Quran and Haddith is regarded to as ignorance and I have established here that this disregard is either as a result of not being a muslim or as a result discovering the real truth of Christ. How then can any of these be regarded as islamic ignorance? cos this disregard has been in existence ever since mohammed founded islam . . .  .as such the prophecy in my opinion is also INVALID.

I am not telling you lies. You only need to reflect on what you read and not transforming it.

Follow me on this hadith:
"We were on expedition with meassange of Allah(PBH) and did not have our wives with us, so we asked him,'Shuld we not castrate ourselves?' He forbade us to do so but permitted us to contract marraige with a woman up to a specified date, giving her a garment as a dower(mahr)"

Temporay marraige provide a solution to the dilemma in which both the weak and the strong found themselves as in the case of the above hadith. Lets recall that there was a gradual course in prohibiting alcohol as this evil was widespread and deeply rooted in the arabian time of ignorance. In the same manner, prophet Muhammd(PBH) adopted a course of gradulaism in the matter of sex, at first permitting temporary marraige as a step leading away from fornication and adultery and at the same time coming closer to the parmanent marraige relationship. He then prohibited it aboslutely, as has been reported by Ali as in the hadeeth you quoted and many other companions.

Al-Juhani said, "Before leaving Makkah the messange of Allah(PBH) prohibited temporary marraige" in another version of the hadith, there is prophet words: "Allah has made it haram untill the Day of Ressurection"
In contrary, only Ibn Abbas hold that temporary can still be permitted under adverse condition. However, when he later saw people engaging in it without necessity, he withdrew his oppinion, reverse it in totality.

@neotic: Can you furnish me with more proof other than what I have explained regarding temporary marraige as you think it is still permitted by Islam and who amongst the muslims sect projecting it as Halal?

Common littleb, it is good to be honest. is temporary marriage not what the sunni's call misyar?

Can you tell me your insinuation from this verse?

Here are my deductions from the verse.

1. Mohammed and subsequently allah condoned temporary marriages.
2. Mohammed probably allowed it for political correctness.
3. mohammed later disallowed it also for political correctness.
4. Sexual immorality of legendary status is prevalent in islam and an obvious disadvantage to the women folk.

Prophet Muhammad met the impurities on the part of arabian and left them as pure being with no fornication and adultery. In the whole continents, where and amongst which communities, religious do you have high sexual immoralities and its trends?

I believe that the haddith I produced established that mohammed encouraged this sexual impunity, as such this prophecy is also invalid.
Sexual immorality existed right under the nose of mohammed.

Since you dont understand the comparision, I will take pain to use analogy, thus:

and we both agreed that knowledge is transmitted by education . . . . . if the scholars die, would the knowledge they processed not have been transmitted to new scholars?

I believe that the prophecy in the haddith is very FALSE. we have both established that knowledge is transmittable by education, so by educating the next generation of scholars it is IMPOSSIBLE for religious knowledge to be taken away.
Nope.

The haddith simply implied that the teachers who are scholars, will die and as such knowledge will diminish. But since we have both established that islamic knowledge is transmitted from old scholar to new scholars by education, it is IMOSSIBLE for such knowledge to diminish.

The reduced in number of religious scholars is a similtude of pyramid heirachical nature with higest number of people in its base, the next people seeking for such knowledge will be lesser than the base poeple. Such is the diminishing till it reaches zero on top. When you think religious knowledge is not been taken away what happen if less people are seeking for such knowledge and what happen to the old knowledgible ones. Remember we are talkng about the last hour. Prophet said, the hours will not come untill there is no single knowlegible person again on the part of religious. Then, the ignorance will be a leader judging from his lust.   

u did not answer my question. would my refusal to kill, amputate, behead, ostracise and annihilate people at the commandment of allah be regarded to as ignorance?

I only explain to you what sharia holds on criminal laws. Shows me where God says you should behead, ostracise and anihilate people? Then, I would explain the ignorance that may result from not doing it.

U stated that people's disregard for the Quran and Haddith is regarded to as ignorance and I have established here that this disregard is either as a result of not being a muslim or as a result discovering the real truth of Christ. How then can any of these be regarded as islamic ignorance? cos this disregard has been in existence ever since mohammed founded islam . . .  .as such the prophecy in my opinion is also INVALID.

Then, you reserved your oppinion to yourself since you dont belief in what I belief. From believer perspective, since you dont accept my faith, then whatever I say will be INVALID to you. If someone is ignorance of Islamic knowledge and belief, then, definitely, he is an unbliever according to Islam.
These are the majority of people that will remain in the last part of the last hour. We muslims are encourage to pray not to remain till the period. Ignorant will be very prevalent, calamity and evildeeds will be so cheap to come by. Immorality will be very high. Women will be dressing nude. The calamities will be so much that even the believer will find ti hard to escape from it. In one of hadeeths, it reads that, the world will not come to an end untill no single person remains that will remember a verse from the Quran.

Also, true Muslims doesn't have any truth to discover in Jesus elsewhere, because Allah says Jesus was a muslim.

Here are my deductions from the verse.

1. Mohammed and subsequently allah condoned temporary marriages.
2. Mohammed probably allowed it for political correctness.
3. mohammed later disallowed it also for political correctness.
4. Sexual immorality of legendary status is prevalent in islam and an obvious disadvantage to the women folk.

I believe that the haddith I produced established that mohammed encouraged this sexual impunity, as such this prophecy is also invalid.
Sexual immorality existed right under the nose of mohammed.

Where do you get the hook up story and which tafsir explain the verse as temporary marraige?

I asked you a question. In the whole continents, where and amongst which communities and religious do you have high sexual immoralities and its trends?

littleb:

Since you dont understand the comparision, I will take pain to use analogy, thus:

The reduced in number of religious scholars is a similtude of pyramid heirachical nature with higest number of people in its base, the next people seeking for such knowledge will be lesser than the base poeple. Such is the diminishing till it reaches zero on top. When you think religious knowledge is not been taken away what happen if less people are seeking for such knowledge and what happen to the old knowledgible ones. Remember we are talkng about the last hour. Prophet said, the hours will not come untill there is no single knowlegible person again on the part of religious. Then, the ignorance will be a leader judging from his lust.   

This is false.

There is nowhere, the haddith implied any of the above.

I only explain to you what sharia holds on criminal laws. Shows me where God says you should behead, ostracise and anihilate people? Then, I would explain the ignorance that may result from not doing it.

Common littleb, we have been through this several times on this forum.

Then, you reserved your oppinion to yourself since you dont belief in what I belief. From believer perspective, since you dont accept my faith, then whatever I say will be INVALID to you. If someone is ignorance of Islamic knowledge and belief, then, definitely, he is an unbliever according to Islam.

This has no connection or relation with the haddith. We have both established, that these prophecies are both UNREALISTIC and FALSE.

These are the majority of people that will remain in the last part of the last hour. We muslims are encourage to pray not to remain till the period. Ignorant will be very prevalent, calamity and evildeeds will be so cheap to come by. Immorality will be very high. Women will be dressing nude. The calamities will be so much that even the believer will find ti hard to escape from it. In one of hadeeths, it reads that, the world will not come to an end untill no single person remains that will remember a verse from the Quran.

Also, true Muslims doesn't have any truth to discover in Jesus elsewhere, because Allah says Jesus was a muslim.

This has nothing to do with beliefs but with the validity of ur haddith prophecies. They are baseless and false.

Where do you get the hook up story and which tafsir explain the verse as temporary marraige?

I asked you a question. In the whole continents, where and amongst which communities and religious do you have high sexual immoralities and its trends?

ur question is irrelevant.

We have both established that sexual immorality was prevalent in mohammed's era. As such the haddith prophecy is FALSE and baseless.

@Neotic,
Pls and pls, temporary marriage has no basis in Islam. It is totally alien to Islamic teachings and culture.

I learnt some Shiia groups do/preach it. This is total ignorance. Stop using this as a basis for discussing islam, because it is not and never part of Islam in the first place.
Go and meet the Shiia that reportedly approve it, and these people are not Muslims anyway.

Jarus:

@Neotic,
Pls and pls, temporary marriage has no basis in Islam. It is totally alien to Islamic teachings and culture.

I learnt some Shiia groups do/preach it. This is total ignorance. Stop using this as a basis for discussing islam, because it is not and never part of Islam in the first place.
Go and meet the Shiia that reportedly approve it, and these people are not Muslims anyway.

ok. . . .this shia are not muslims right?

did I not produce an haddith that establishes that mohammed endorsed this? U dont have a point.

Assalamu alaikum,

It is reported in As-Sahih (Al-Bukhari) from Abu Huraira (RA) that Allah's Messenger (S.A.W) said:

None of you should say: O Allah, forgive me if You wish; O Allah, be Merciful to me if you wish; but he should always appeal to Allah with determintaion, for nobody can force Allah to do something against His Will.

Muhseen:

Assalamu alaikum,

It is reported in As-Sahih (Al-Bukhari) from Abu Huraira (RA) that Allah's Messenger (S.A.W) said:

None of you should say: O Allah, forgive me if You wish; O Allah, be Merciful to me if you wish; but he should always appeal to Allah with determintaion, for nobody can force Allah to do something against His Will.

in order words forgiveness is at the discretion of allah.


is that why allah asked people be killed, amputated, ostracised, beheaded rather than forgiven?

noetic2:

This is false.

There is nowhere, the haddith implied any of the above.

Common littleb, we have been through this several times on this forum.

This has no connection or relation with the haddith. We have both established, that these prophecies are both UNREALISTIC and FALSE.

This has nothing to do with beliefs but with the validity of ur haddith prophecies. They are baseless and false.

ur question is irrelevant.

We have both established that sexual immorality was prevalent in mohammed's era. As such the haddith prophecy is FALSE and baseless.

After the clear explanation of the hadeeth has came to you, it is left with your inner mind set either to belief or not. There is no temporary marraige in Islam. No sexual immorality. You and I know where in the world sexual immorality is prevalent amongst the tose who consider bedroom dress as public attires. It is Islam which came to liberate people from all sexual immoralities by physically, mentally and spiritually displaying degree of high moral standards.
You claim the hadeeth is false but you couldn't justify its falsefulness. Why do you always transform the truth on the notion of hatred. You claim Muhammad propagate sexual immorality when you can read it that there are laws against fornication and adultery. I encourage you to better open your mind to realize the truth before it is too late!

littleb:

After the clear explanation of the hadeeth has came to you, it is left with your inner mind set either to belief or not. There is no temporary marraige in Islam. No sexual immorality. You and I know where in the world sexual immorality is prevalent amongst the tose who consider bedroom dress as public attires. It is Islam which came to liberate people from all sexual immoralities by physically, mentally and spiritually displaying degree of high moral standards. 
You claim the hadeeth is false but you couldn't justify its falsefulness. Why do you always transform the truth on the notion of hatred. You claim Muhammad propagate sexual immorality when you can read it that there are laws against fornication and adultery. I encourage you to better open your mind to realize the truth before it is too late!

I dont think that u are being honest here. You posted an haddith that made 4 controversial prophecies.

1. The haddith claimed that knowledge will diminish because learned scholars will die.
On further observation, we established that islamic knowledge is usually passed from one (old) scholar to another (new or younger) scholar by education. This makes it impossible for islamic knowledge to diminish since knowledge will be continuously transmitted to new scholars by educating them.

This prophecy of the haddith is therefore FALSE.

2. The haddith claimed that religious ignorance will prevail in the end times. I asked u to define ignorance, u defined it as disregard for islamic laws.
On further analysis, we established that only non-muslims and muslims who have seen the truth away from islam are the ones that could possibly ignore islamic laws. To further emphasise this I asked u "if my refusal to kill, annihilate, destroy, amputate, flog and behead others at the instruction of allah amounts to ignorance?" u refused to answer.

Since it is only possible for non-muslims and apostates to disregard islamic law, and since these people EXISTED during the era of mohammed, when this prophecy was made, it is as such safe to state that this prophecy is again FALSE.

3. The haddith claimed that sexual immorality will be prominent during the last days.
I believe we both know and understand the underlying components of sexual immorality, one of which is temporary marriage.
I also produced an haddith that established that mohammed INDEED endorsed temporary marriages for muslims and it is still practised today by the sunnis. As such we can safely state that sexual immorality existed during mohammed's era and he approved of it.

Since mohammed endorsed this sexual immorality, the prophecy of the haddith does not stand because sexual immorality existed and was rampant even in mohammed's days. This prophecy is also FALSE.

I believe that this is an honest assessment and analysis of the haddith.

1. "Abu Hurairah narrated that the Messenger, of Allah (peace
be on him) said, I will not be a witness for two types of people who
are destined for the Fire: people with whips, like the tails of cows,
who beat the people (i.e., tyrannical rulers who are the enemies of
their own people), and women who, although clothed, are yet naked,
seducing and being seduced, their hair styled like the tilted humps
of camels. These will not enter the Garden nor will its fragrance
even reach them, although its fragrance reaches a very great
distance. (Reported by Muslim.) "

2. "Among those who are cursed by Allah and His angels, both in this
world and in the Hereafter, the Prophet (peace be on him) has
mentioned the man whom Allah has made a male but who becomes
effeminate by imitating women, and a woman whom Allah has made a
female but who becomes masculinized by imitating men. (Reported by al-
Tabarani.) "

littleb:

1. "Abu Hurairah narrated that the Messenger, of Allah (peace
be on him) said, I will not be a witness for two types of people who
are destined for the Fire: people with whips, like the tails of cows,
who beat the people (i.e., tyrannical rulers who are the enemies of
their own people), and women who, although clothed, are yet naked,
seducing and being seduced, their hair styled like the tilted humps
of camels. These will not enter the Garden nor will its fragrance
even reach them, although its fragrance reaches a very great
distance. (Reported by Muslim.) "

I have some questions:

1. What is tyranny by islamic definition? what actions or inactions are qualified to be called tyrant?
2. Why would mohammed be the one to plea for people before they enter paradise?
3. what is the fate of mohammed himself with allah?

noetic2:

in order words forgiveness is at the discretion of allah.

Where was that said/written?
Am afraid but you can learn nothing unless you read, understand and judge fair-midedly, noetic2. Good luck.

*Edit*

Here are a few points outlined by Muhammad bn Abdul-Wahab on this issue:

1-Forbidden in making exclusion in the supplication

2-The reason for not saying "If You Wish"

3-The Prophet (S.A.W) said to make the appeal with firm determination

4-Ask whatever you can of Allah (S.W.T)

5-The reason for that (for nothing is too much for, or beyond Him)

noetic2:

is that why allah asked people be killed, amputated, ostracised, beheaded rather than forgiven?

Regarding this mantra, I'll inshaAllah provide you (and every other reader) with a very well crafted article I read somewhere explaining this sometime ago. I'll look for it just now. Thanks.

Good. Here is it:

[size=15pt]Cut off (from the wrist joint) the (right) hand of the thief, male or female, as a recompense for that which they committed, a punishment by way of example from Allâh. And Allâh is All*Powerful, All*Wise.[/size]

But whosoever repents after his crime and does righteous good deeds (by obeying Allâh), then verily, Allâh will pardon him (accept his repentance). Verily, Allâh is Oft*Forgiving, Most Merciful.

(Qur'an Al Ma'ida 5:38)


A couple of points to note on the punishment of amputation for theft:

    1-the punishment will not be applied if there is any doubt as to the guilt of the suspect

    2-the punishment will not be applied if the value of the stolen goods is below something of great value -> determined by 'urf [customs of society]

    3-the punishment will not be applied if the thief stole out of need/poverty

    4-the punishment will not be applied if the goods weren't in proper storage (al-hirz) -> also determined by 'urf (customs of society)

    5-the punishment will not be applied if the thief returns the goods and seeks forgiveness of the victim of the theft, before the case enters the judicial system

    6-the punishment will not be applied if the culprit is not a sane adult and the crime was not committed under duress

    7-the punishment will not be applied if the goods were not legally owned

    8-the punishment will not be applied if it is a child stealing from parents or parents stealing from children or one spouse from another according to the opinion of all jurists except Imam Malik.

    9-the punishment will not be applied if the person is permitted to enter the place from where he stole because in such a case there is no proper custody (al-hirz)

    10-according to Imam Abu Hanifa the punishment is not applied to the non-Muslim living in the Muslim state, however Imam Shafi', Imam Malik and Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal have said that it is.


If the theft passes these restrictions, then it recieves the hadd punishment of hand amputation. Any theft that does not meet these restrictions receives ta'azir (discretionary punishment). In such cases the Islamic society would most likely follow case/common law by rule of precedent where like cases are treated alike.



Coming to the scenario where amputation is applied in theft, it is interesting to note the effect this has on society. I'd like to quote some parts of a discussion at a conference of the Saudi scholars:


At this point Dr. Dawalbi made a comment:

   "I have been in this country for seven years", he said, "and I never saw of heard of, any amputation of the hand for stealing. This is because the crime is extremely rare. So, all that remains of that punishment is its harshness, which has made it possible for those who are tempted to steal, to keep their hands whole. Formerly, when these regions were ruled by the french-inspired Penal Code, under the Ottoman Empire, pilgrims travelling between the two Holy Cities - Mecca and Medina, could not feel secure for their purse or their life, unless they had a strong escort.

   But when this country became the Saudi Kingdom, the Qur'anic Law was enforced, crime immediately disappeared. A traveller, then, could journey, not only between the Holy Cities, but even from Al-Dahran on the Gulf to Jeddah on the Red Sea, and traverse a distance of more than one thousand and five hundred kilometres across the desert all alone in his private car, without harbouring any fear or worry about his life or property, be it worth millions of dollars, and he be a complete foreigner."


The Saudi Delegation resumed:

    "In this manner, in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, where Islamic law is enforced, state money is transferred from one town to another, from one bank to another, in an ordinary car, without any escort or protection, but the car driver.

  Tell me, Gentlemen: in any of your Western States, would you be ready to transfer money from one bank to another, in any of your capitals without the protection of a strong police force and the necessary number of armoured cars?

        , Only here, Gentlemen, in this country where Islamic Law is enforced, the American Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr. William Rogers, during his visit last year, could, he and his suit, dispense with the armoured cars, which had been carried in by special planes, and which accompanied them in their tour of more than ten countries. Only here, Gentlemen, did the Government of the Kingdom not allow its visitors to go around in these cars. Eventually, Mr. Rogers spontaneously declined the guard of honour usually placed by the Government at the disposal of their foreign guests; he walked through the soulks by himself, and confessed that, in this Kingdom, and in this Kingdom alone, one had such a feeling of security that one had no more need of a guard.

        , Stealing is almost unknown in our Kingdom, when people, in the great Capitals of Western countries under secular regimes, have no more security for their lives of their possessions.

    (Doi, Shari'ah: The Islamic Law, Ta Ha Publishers 1984, pp. 260-261)



Personally, I know many people who have lived for ten or twenty years in Saudi Arabia and they have testified that they have never come across such a case of amputation for theft. When you implement such a balanced code, theft becomes un-heard of.



I want you to look at this UN survey of burglaries between 1998-2000*. Tell me who is at the bottom of the list? Who is at the top?

*http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_bur


1. United States 2,099,700 burglaries (1999)
2. United Kingdom 836,027 burglaries (2000)
.
.
54. Saudi Arabia 11 (2000)!!!!


Which law is more successful?

These are concrete statistics here. There is no doubt when the UN conducts a survey and the country implementing Islamic law has the fewest burglaries, it demonstrates which is the most successful law in this regard.

Assalamu alaikum,


Narrated Al-Mughira:

The Prophet (PBUH) said, "Allah has forbidden you
( 1 ) to be undutiful to your mothers
(2) to withhold (what you should give) or
(3) demand (what you do not deserve), and
(4) to bury your daughters alive.

And Allah has disliked that
(A) you talk too much about others
(B), ask too many questions (in religion), or
(C) waste your property."

Source: Sahi Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 6:

@noetic2:

I dont think that u are being honest here. You posted an haddith that made 4 controversial prophecies.

1. The haddith claimed that knowledge will diminish because learned scholars will die.
On further observation, we established that islamic knowledge is usually passed from one (old) scholar to another (new or younger) scholar by education. This makes it impossible for islamic knowledge to diminish since knowledge will be continuously transmitted to new scholars by educating them.

This prophecy of the haddith is therefore FALSE.

The Hadith is not false. The hadith does not basicalliy counting the numbers of people who read Quran or performing salat. Scholars are meant to be leaders and God fearing people, apparently when lesser people are being trained towards such leadership while the old trusted ones will continuously dying, and that the essence of my expalantion with another similar hadith. Such fear of God will continuously declining untill no more one will remain.  The quoted hadith was surported with several other ones which are part of the signs of last hour. Muslims will decline in terms of being God fearing scholars(ie those who are potential leaders) by engaging in worldly lust and affection while God fearing ones will diminsihing through death. There is what we called science of hadith, equivalently expalining the analysis of hadith with another hadith probably with different isnaad(chain of narations). In several occasions when prophet Muhammad was telling the sahabah about the future of Islam and muslims in general especially related to end times. Many of the sahabah were willing to ask questions in order to establish the falidity of the hadith, meanwhile they found answers in another hadith with different isnaad.

I will quoted the following hadith which actually might be a response to what you intend to know about the original hadith.


1.Near the establishment of the Hour there will be days during which (religious) knowledge will be taken away (vanish) and general ignorance will spread…
(Bukhari)

2. There will come a time for my people when there will remain nothing of the Qur’an except its outward form and nothing of Islam except its name and they will call themselves by this name even though they are the people furthest from it.
(Agreed upon)

3.The Prophet said, despite the fact that the Qur’an will be read, the knowledge and wisdom it contains will not be considered. This is another sign of the time of the End Times.
There will come a time upon the Ummat when people will recite the Qur’an, but it will not go further than their throats,(into their hearts).
(Bukhari)

And lastly to clear what you might get wrong from the hadith:

4. Allah’s Messenger spoke of something and said:"It will happen when knowledge will be no more.“(Ziyad) said:“Allah’s Messenger, how will knowledge vanish despite the fact that we will be reciting the Qur’an and teaching its recitation to our children and our children will teach its recitation to their children up to the Day of Resurrection?” Thereupon he (the Prophet (saas)) said:“Ziyad, do these Jews and Christians not recite the Torah and the Bible but not act according to what is contained in them?”
(Ahmad, Ibn Majah, Tirmidhi)
It is a sign of the End Times that some Muslims will follow the example of heretical Jews and Christians and imitate them blindly.
The Prophet (saas) said,“Surely you will follow the ways, of those nations who were before you, span by span and cubit by cubit (i.e. inch by inch) so much so that even if they entered a hole of a lizard, you too would follow them,” We said,“O Allah’s Messenger! Do you mean the Jews and the Christians?” He replied,“Whom else?”
(Bukhari)

I think you can draw an inference from the last hadith. If you still not satisfied, then produce yours and lets people read.

2. The haddith claimed that religious ignorance will prevail in the end times. I asked u to define ignorance, u defined it as disregard for islamic laws.
On further analysis, we established that only non-muslims and muslims who have seen the truth away from islam are the ones that could possibly ignore islamic laws. To further emphasise this I asked u "if my refusal to kill, annihilate, destroy, amputate, flog and behead others at the instruction of allah amounts to ignorance?" u refused to answer.

When hadith says ignorance will prevail it never stated anything like your phrase "if my refusal to kill, annihilate, destroy, amputate, flog, ". Your question carry a disngenious notion, I only give a ref of Islamic laws probably you might be sincere. If you present part of the hadith that related such I will answer you. If you agree that scholars are meant to be potential leaders. If we equaly agree that scholars will decrease in number till there will be none, then who will be the leader if not amongst the ignoramuses? The hadith further stated the leadership will be a relgious ignorant person who will not judge from anything other than from his personal lust.

Since it is only possible for non-muslims and apostates to disregard islamic law, and since these people EXISTED during the era of mohammed, when this prophecy was made, it is as such safe to state that this prophecy is again FALSE.

Where do you get this from? No proof, no explanation. Who are those apostate and non muslims in the time of prophet, give names and ref, otherwise you are a liar and dishonest on your part!

3. The haddith claimed that sexual immorality will be prominent during the last days.
I believe we both know and understand the underlying components of sexual immorality, one of which is temporary marriage.
I also produced an haddith that established that mohammed INDEED endorsed temporary marriages for muslims and it is still practised today by the sunnis. As such we can safely state that sexual immorality existed during mohammed's era and he approved of it.

Since mohammed endorsed this sexual immorality, the prophecy of the haddith does not stand because sexual immorality existed and was rampant even in mohammed's days. This prophecy is also FALSE.

I believe that this is an honest assessment and analysis of the haddith.

And that your belief is parochial flourish with inadequacy on the knowledge of hadiths. Additionally, you quoted a verse of the Quran and transformed it to temporary marraige. I ask you which tafsir or which scholars of Islam interprete the verse of the qran you quoted signifies temporary marraige? Also, from the hadith you quoted, I gave another hadith that forbids temporary marriage before prophet demise which you denied. I want a proof from your side that indicate that after being declared haram forever, shows another hadith that allows it.

On my analysis on temporary marraige:

1. The temporary marraige was allowed in the early stage of muslims when people who were used to adultery could not be tottaly commanded to stop.
2. I gave a similar case of alcohol how it was stopped by Allah as depicted in the Quran
3. Another hadith was narrated afterwards as a direct statement from the prophet that temprorary marraige has been made Haram(forbiden) forever.

It is highly dishonest and ignorance of the highest order to lay claim to the previous hadith as a cover that temporary marriage is allow in Islam. Execpt ibn Abass on his opinnion amongst sahabah after prophet Muhammad demise authorise temporary marraige on hardship condition, however when he noted that people engaging in it without necesity he withdrews his opinnion. This oppinion was subjected to when some sunnis think it can still be done.

From the lips of ibn Abbass:
1. "Temporary marriage was at the beginning of Islam. A man comes by a town where he has no acquaintances, so he marries for a fixed time depending on his stay in the town, the woman looks after his provisions and prepares his food, until the verse was revealed: "Except to your wives or what your right hands possess." Ibn 'Abbas explained that any relationship beyond this is forbidden." [narrated by Tirmizy]

2.Abu Huraira said: "the Messenger of Allah (may Peace Be Upon Him) had forbidden or abolished temporary marriage, its marriage and its divorce, its waiting period, and its inheritance." [narrated by DarQutny, Ishaq Bin Rahwiya, and Ibn Habban]

3. Ibn Umar said: "When  Ali  was given the Caliphate, he thanked Allah Most High and praised Him and said: 'O people, the Messenger of Allah (may Peace Be Upon Him) had permitted temporary marriage three times then forbade it. I swear by Allah, ready to fulfil my oath, that if I find any person who engages in temporary marriage without having ratified this with a proper marriage, I will have him lashed 100 stripes unless he can bring two witnesses to prove that the Messenger (may Peace Be Upon Him) had permitted it after forbidding it.' " [Ibn Majah]

and lastly for those who follow ibn Abass:

4. Mohammad Bin 'Abdullah Bin Numayr said: "My father had narrated to us according to 'Ubaidullah according to Ibn shahab according to Alhassan and 'Abdullah the sons of Mohammad Bin 'Ali according to their father according to  'Ali (r.a.a.)  that he heard Ibn 'Abbas (r.a.a.) being lenient towards temporary marriage, so he said, 'wait Ibn 'Abbas, the Messenger of Allah (may Peace Be Upon Him) had forbidden it on the day of Khaybar when he also prohibited the meat of domestic camels.' "

I belief all these refs expose the dark side of your analysis! However, if you still hold to what you belief I want more ref to support your claim! When you are satisfy, I have a question for you, when you ready to take my question let me know.

The Apostle of Allah (PBH) said:

1. Before the Last Hour there will be commotions like pieces of a dark night
(Abu Dawood)
2. Before the Last Hour there will be commotions like pieces of a dark night in which a man will be a believer in the morning and an infidel in the evening, or a believer in the evening and infidel in the morning.
(Abu Dawood)

3. A time will come when a man will not care about how he gets things, whether lawful or unlawful.
(Bukhari)