Muhseen:

Where was that said/written?
Am afraid but you can learn nothing unless you read, understand and judge fair-midedly, noetic2. Good luck.

*Edit*

Here are a few points outlined by Muhammad bn Abdul-Wahab on this issue:

1-Forbidden in making exclusion in the supplication

2-The reason for not saying "If You Wish"

3-The Prophet (S.A.W) said to make the appeal with firm determination

4-Ask whatever you can of Allah (S.W.T)

5-The reason for that (for nothing is too much for, or beyond Him)

Regarding this mantra, I'll inshaAllah provide you (and every other reader) with a very well crafted article I read somewhere explaining this sometime ago. I'll look for it just now. Thanks.

Muhseen:

Good. Here is it:

[size=15pt]Cut off (from the wrist joint) the (right) hand of the thief, male or female, as a recompense for that which they committed, a punishment by way of example from Allâh. And Allâh is All*Powerful, All*Wise.[/size]

But whosoever repents after his crime and does righteous good deeds (by obeying Allâh), then verily, Allâh will pardon him (accept his repentance). Verily, Allâh is Oft*Forgiving, Most Merciful.

(Qur'an Al Ma'ida 5:38)


A couple of points to note on the punishment of amputation for theft:

    1-the punishment will not be applied if there is any doubt as to the guilt of the suspect

    2-the punishment will not be applied if the value of the stolen goods is below something of great value -> determined by 'urf [customs of society]

    3-the punishment will not be applied if the thief stole out of need/poverty

    4-the punishment will not be applied if the goods weren't in proper storage (al-hirz) -> also determined by 'urf (customs of society)

    5-the punishment will not be applied if the thief returns the goods and seeks forgiveness of the victim of the theft, before the case enters the judicial system

    6-the punishment will not be applied if the culprit is not a sane adult and the crime was not committed under duress

    7-the punishment will not be applied if the goods were not legally owned

    8-the punishment will not be applied if it is a child stealing from parents or parents stealing from children or one spouse from another according to the opinion of all jurists except Imam Malik.

    9-the punishment will not be applied if the person is permitted to enter the place from where he stole because in such a case there is no proper custody (al-hirz)

    10-according to Imam Abu Hanifa the punishment is not applied to the non-Muslim living in the Muslim state, however Imam Shafi', Imam Malik and Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal have said that it is.


If the theft passes these restrictions, then it recieves the hadd punishment of hand amputation. Any theft that does not meet these restrictions receives ta'azir (discretionary punishment). In such cases the Islamic society would most likely follow case/common law by rule of precedent where like cases are treated alike.



Coming to the scenario where amputation is applied in theft, it is interesting to note the effect this has on society. I'd like to quote some parts of a discussion at a conference of the Saudi scholars:


At this point Dr. Dawalbi made a comment:

   "I have been in this country for seven years", he said, "and I never saw of heard of, any amputation of the hand for stealing. This is because the crime is extremely rare. So, all that remains of that punishment is its harshness, which has made it possible for those who are tempted to steal, to keep their hands whole. Formerly, when these regions were ruled by the french-inspired Penal Code, under the Ottoman Empire, pilgrims travelling between the two Holy Cities - Mecca and Medina, could not feel secure for their purse or their life, unless they had a strong escort.

   But when this country became the Saudi Kingdom, the Qur'anic Law was enforced, crime immediately disappeared. A traveller, then, could journey, not only between the Holy Cities, but even from Al-Dahran on the Gulf to Jeddah on the Red Sea, and traverse a distance of more than one thousand and five hundred kilometres across the desert all alone in his private car, without harbouring any fear or worry about his life or property, be it worth millions of dollars, and he be a complete foreigner."


The Saudi Delegation resumed:

    "In this manner, in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, where Islamic law is enforced, state money is transferred from one town to another, from one bank to another, in an ordinary car, without any escort or protection, but the car driver.

  Tell me, Gentlemen: in any of your Western States, would you be ready to transfer money from one bank to another, in any of your capitals without the protection of a strong police force and the necessary number of armoured cars?

        , Only here, Gentlemen, in this country where Islamic Law is enforced, the American Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr. William Rogers, during his visit last year, could, he and his suit, dispense with the armoured cars, which had been carried in by special planes, and which accompanied them in their tour of more than ten countries. Only here, Gentlemen, did the Government of the Kingdom not allow its visitors to go around in these cars. Eventually, Mr. Rogers spontaneously declined the guard of honour usually placed by the Government at the disposal of their foreign guests; he walked through the soulks by himself, and confessed that, in this Kingdom, and in this Kingdom alone, one had such a feeling of security that one had no more need of a guard.

        , Stealing is almost unknown in our Kingdom, when people, in the great Capitals of Western countries under secular regimes, have no more security for their lives of their possessions.

    (Doi, Shari'ah: The Islamic Law, Ta Ha Publishers 1984, pp. 260-261)



Personally, I know many people who have lived for ten or twenty years in Saudi Arabia and they have testified that they have never come across such a case of amputation for theft. When you implement such a balanced code, theft becomes un-heard of.



I want you to look at this UN survey of burglaries between 1998-2000*. Tell me who is at the bottom of the list? Who is at the top?

*http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_bur


1. United States 2,099,700 burglaries (1999)
2. United Kingdom 836,027 burglaries (2000)
.
.
54. Saudi Arabia 11 (2000)!!!!


Which law is more successful?

These are concrete statistics here. There is no doubt when the UN conducts a survey and the country implementing Islamic law has the fewest burglaries, it demonstrates which is the most successful law in this regard.

littleb:

@noetic2:The Hadith is not false. The hadith does not basicalliy counting the numbers of people who read Quran or performing salat. Scholars are meant to be leaders and God fearing people, apparently when lesser people are being trained towards such leadership while the old trusted ones will continuously dying, and that the essence of my expalantion with another similar hadith. Such fear of God will continuously declining untill no more one will remain.  The quoted hadith was surported with several other ones which are part of the signs of last hour. Muslims will decline in terms of being God fearing scholars(ie those who are potential leaders) by engaging in worldly lust and affection while God fearing ones will diminsihing through death. There is what we called science of hadith, equivalently expalining the analysis of hadith with another hadith probably with different isnaad(chain of narations). In several occasions when prophet Muhammad was telling the sahabah about the future of Islam and muslims in general especially related to end times. Many of the sahabah were willing to ask questions in order to establish the falidity of the hadith, meanwhile they found answers in another hadith with different isnaad.

I will quoted the following hadith which actually might be a response to what you intend to know about the original hadith.


1.Near the establishment of the Hour there will be days during which (religious) knowledge will be taken away (vanish) and general ignorance will spread…
(Bukhari)

2. There will come a time for my people when there will remain nothing of the Qur’an except its outward form and nothing of Islam except its name and they will call themselves by this name even though they are the people furthest from it.
(Agreed upon)

3.The Prophet said, despite the fact that the Qur’an will be read, the knowledge and wisdom it contains will not be considered. This is another sign of the time of the End Times.
There will come a time upon the Ummat when people will recite the Qur’an, but it will not go further than their throats,(into their hearts).
(Bukhari)

And lastly to clear what you might get wrong from the hadith:

4. Allah’s Messenger spoke of something and said:"It will happen when knowledge will be no more.“(Ziyad) said:“Allah’s Messenger, how will knowledge vanish despite the fact that we will be reciting the Qur’an and teaching its recitation to our children and our children will teach its recitation to their children up to the Day of Resurrection?” Thereupon he (the Prophet (saas)) said:“Ziyad, do these Jews and Christians not recite the Torah and the Bible but not act according to what is contained in them?”
(Ahmad, Ibn Majah, Tirmidhi)
It is a sign of the End Times that some Muslims will follow the example of heretical Jews and Christians and imitate them blindly.
The Prophet (saas) said,“Surely you will follow the ways, of those nations who were before you, span by span and cubit by cubit (i.e. inch by inch) so much so that even if they entered a hole of a lizard, you too would follow them,” We said,“O Allah’s Messenger! Do you mean the Jews and the Christians?” He replied,“Whom else?”
(Bukhari)

I think you can draw an inference from the last hadith. If you still not satisfied, then produce yours and lets people read.



When hadith says ignorance will prevail it never stated anything like your phrase "if my refusal to kill, annihilate, destroy, amputate, flog, ". Your question carry a disngenious notion, I only give a ref of Islamic laws probably you might be sincere. If you present part of the hadith that related such I will answer you. If you agree that scholars are meant to be potential leaders. If we equaly agree that scholars will decrease in number till there will be none, then who will be the leader if not amongst the ignoramuses? The hadith further stated the leadership will be a relgious ignorant person who will not judge from anything other than from his personal lust.


Where do you get this from? No proof, no explanation. Who are those apostate and non muslims in the time of prophet, give names and ref, otherwise you are a liar and dishonest on your part!


And that your belief is parochial flourish with inadequacy on the knowledge of hadiths. Additionally, you quoted a verse of the Quran and transformed it to temporary marraige. I ask you which tafsir or which scholars of Islam interprete the verse of the qran you quoted signifies temporary marraige? Also, from the hadith you quoted, I gave another hadith that forbids temporary marriage before prophet demise which you denied. I want a proof from your side that indicate that after being declared haram forever, shows another hadith that allows it.

On my analysis on temporary marraige:

1. The temporary marraige was allowed in the early stage of muslims when people who were used to adultery could not be tottaly commanded to stop.
2. I gave a similar case of alcohol how it was stopped by Allah as depicted in the Quran
3. Another hadith was narrated afterwards as a direct statement from the prophet that temprorary marraige has been made Haram(forbiden) forever.

It is highly dishonest and ignorance of the highest order to lay claim to the previous hadith as a cover that temporary marriage is allow in Islam. Execpt ibn Abass on his opinnion amongst sahabah after prophet Muhammad demise authorise temporary marraige on hardship condition, however when he noted that people engaging in it without necesity he withdrews his opinnion. This oppinion was subjected to when some sunnis think it can still be done.

From the lips of ibn Abbass:
1. "Temporary marriage was at the beginning of Islam. A man comes by a town where he has no acquaintances, so he marries for a fixed time depending on his stay in the town, the woman looks after his provisions and prepares his food, until the verse was revealed: "Except to your wives or what your right hands possess." Ibn 'Abbas explained that any relationship beyond this is forbidden." [narrated by Tirmizy]

2.Abu Huraira said: "the Messenger of Allah (may Peace Be Upon Him) had forbidden or abolished temporary marriage, its marriage and its divorce, its waiting period, and its inheritance." [narrated by DarQutny, Ishaq Bin Rahwiya, and Ibn Habban]

3. Ibn Umar said: "When  Ali  was given the Caliphate, he thanked Allah Most High and praised Him and said: 'O people, the Messenger of Allah (may Peace Be Upon Him) had permitted temporary marriage three times then forbade it. I swear by Allah, ready to fulfil my oath, that if I find any person who engages in temporary marriage without having ratified this with a proper marriage, I will have him lashed 100 stripes unless he can bring two witnesses to prove that the Messenger (may Peace Be Upon Him) had permitted it after forbidding it.' " [Ibn Majah]

and lastly for those who follow ibn Abass:

4. Mohammad Bin 'Abdullah Bin Numayr said: "My father had narrated to us according to 'Ubaidullah according to Ibn shahab according to Alhassan and 'Abdullah the sons of Mohammad Bin 'Ali according to their father according to  'Ali (r.a.a.)  that he heard Ibn 'Abbas (r.a.a.) being lenient towards temporary marriage, so he said, 'wait Ibn 'Abbas, the Messenger of Allah (may Peace Be Upon Him) had forbidden it on the day of Khaybar when he also prohibited the meat of domestic camels.' "

I belief all these refs expose the dark side of your analysis! However, if you still hold to what you belief I want more ref to support your claim! When you are satisfy, I have a question for you, when you ready to take my question let me know.

noetic2:

This is simply called medicine after death.

u posted an haddith and I asked u questions, which u answered. from ur answers we both reached sufficient conclusions and deductions. Once again I repeat my own submissions.

1. The haddith claimed that knowledge will diminish because learned scholars will die.
On further observation, we established that islamic knowledge is usually passed from one (old) scholar to another (new or younger) scholar by education. This makes it impossible for islamic knowledge to diminish since knowledge will be continuously transmitted to new scholars by educating them.


2. The haddith claimed that religious ignorance will prevail in the end times. I asked u to define ignorance, u defined it as disregard for islamic laws.
On further analysis, we established that only non-muslims and muslims who have seen the truth away from islam are the ones that could possibly ignore islamic laws. To further emphasise this I asked u "if my refusal to kill, annihilate, destroy, amputate, flog and behead others at the instruction of allah amounts to ignorance?" u refused to answer.

Since it is only possible for non-muslims and apostates to disregard islamic law, and since these people EXISTED during the era of mohammed, when this prophecy was made, it is as such safe to state that this prophecy is again FALSE.

3. The haddith claimed that sexual immorality will be prominent during the last days.
I believe we both know and understand the underlying components of sexual immorality, one of which is temporary marriage.
I also produced an haddith that established that mohammed INDEED endorsed temporary marriages for muslims and it is still practised today by the sunnis. As such we can safely state that sexual immorality existed during mohammed's era and he approved of it.

Since mohammed endorsed this sexual immorality, the prophecy of the haddith does not stand because sexual immorality existed and was rampant even in mohammed's days. This prophecy is also FALSE.

I believe that this is an honest assessment and analysis of the haddith.

PS. Why did u ignore my questions on ur other haddith?

noetic2:

All of this is RIDICULOUS and EVASIVE.

why is forgiveness a big deal to allah? why does the victim have to go through the punishment at all? why should one's hand be amputated in the first instance? why is forgiveness not an option to allah?

You are fast emulating olabowale. when asked a simple question, he responds with 1000 words without answering the question asked. This is intellectually unhealthy.

littleb:

@neotic
If there is anything ridicule, it should be from your part. You don't belief in what I belief. You ask many questions which were answered in the best sincerity and truth, however you disingenuously transform to your intended propaganda.

There is forgiveness which you will never understand, cos your mind is block with impurities. Allah says in many verses that he forgives sins. Amputation is related to the punishment of a criminals the same you have criminal laws in the bible. Punishment is to deter others from engaging in such devilish acts, thereby making an Islamic environment free of crime. Where such laws is being used is forever peaceful.

Tell me if you are sincere where in the world there is no crime penal codes as oppose to your belief?

Even when responded with a word you will never get satisfied coz you have your mind set on the question.

noetic2:

I have some questions:

1. What is tyranny by islamic definition? what actions or inactions are qualified to be called tyrant?
2. Why would mohammed be the one to plea for people before they enter paradise?
3. what is the fate of mohammed himself with allah? 

1. What is tyranny by islamic definition? what actions or inactions are qualified to be called tyrant?

2. Why would mohammed be the one to plea for people before they enter paradise?

3. what is the fate of mohammed himself with allah?

littleb:

@noetic2:
For your best understanding. Tyrant ruler in Islam is just the same it was established in the Bible.Read the story of Belshazzar, son of Nebuchadnezzar that God put off his kingdom when attempt to drink with Giblets used to perform ablution ion the temple. Also, read through the life of Pharao. Those are the sexamples of a tyrant ruler.

Allah says he would be allowed as an intercessor.

Muhammad was a prophet like Moses, Jesus and Abraham. Their fate is with Allah alone, they are His bondsmen. He promised them paradise.

Please state specific characteristics that makes one a tyrant.

Did allah state why?

First and foremost, mohammed is NOT a prophet. a prophet does miracles and makes prophecies. mohammed did NONE.
Jesus is also not a prophet. He is GOD who lived in human body.

Does the koran or haddith ever mention the fate of mohammed with allah?

littleb:

I never once ignore any of your question.

littleb:

@noetic:
Once again, for you to get it clear. Check the characterisitcs of Pharao.

Allah does not tired not to think of he would rest. He never tell us the reason he created heaven and earth six days. However, we keep on asking, since he is supernatutural, why can't He created everything in a day! Apply the same principle!

Allah counts His prophets amongst who submitted to Him and he promised them paradise. If I give you Quran verse, will you become muslim?

noetic2:

I just want us to reach a consensus on these characteristics of a tyrant.

Do u agree that some of them are
1. profound wickedness against weak and defenceless people.
2. impunity and excessive abuse of power
3. inhumaneness.

please dont play any of this intellectually bankrupt games with me. I should become a muslim because u used google to produce verse from ur koran? INCREDIBLE.

produce the verse where allah promised mohammed paradise.

littleb:

Countinue. People would like read more!

Answer my question. I see you as a lost man. You need help. Will you be a muslim?

noetic2:

Do u agree to the list of characteristics?

is this not plain STUPID? is this how u convert people to islam? by showing them a koran verse? this is RIDICULOUS.

produce the verse that says mohammed will go to paradise, if at all it exists.

noetic2:

produce the verse where allah promised mohammed paradise.

littleb:

I think you mention some, complete them then I will respond.

It could be stupid as unbeliever. Will you be a muslim if I tell you?

noetic2:

Thats my list. Do u agree?

is that how u convert people to worship allah?

littleb:

Why should I agree? You asked question that its answer is right there with you.

Just answer yes or no.

noetic2:

Not in this world, nor in the world to come, over my dead, rotten and decayed body will I become a muslim.

muhsin:

"If you could but see when they are set before the Fire (Hell) and say: "Would that might return (to the world)! Then we would not reject the verses of our Lord, but we would be of the believers!" (Qur'an, 6:27)

littleb:

The Prophet (PBUH) said : " For he who always seeks forgiveness of Allah, Allah will relieve him from all adversities, make a way out for him from hardships and provide him from a means which he could never have expected." (Nasaa'i).

noetic2:

what are the benefits of being a muslim?

muhsin:

These are numerous. Any way, according to some learned scholars, they  provided four broad benefits for the individual and the society.

1- The Door to Eternal Paradise

God has said in the Qur'an:

"And give good news (O Muhammad) [b][b]to those who believe and do good deeds[/b], that they will have gardens (Paradise) in which rivers flow. . ." (Qur'an, 2:25)[/b] [size=15pt]mr mushin, how many people do you need to kill for it to be counted as good worka?[/size]

[/b][/size]
When someone converts to Islam, God forgives all of his previous sins and evil deeds. A man called Amr came to the Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) and said: "Give me your right hand so that I may give you pledge of loyalty." The Prophet (p.b.u.h) stretched out his right hand. Amr withdrew his hand. The Prophet (p.b.u.h) said: {What has happened to you, O Amr?} He replied: "I intend to lay down a condition." The Prophet (p.b.u.h) asked: {What condition do you intend to put forward?} Amr said: "That God forgive my sins." The Prophet (p.b.u.h) said: {Didn't you know that converting to Islam erases all previous sins?}  [size=15pt]didnt someone say all you need do was sleep and wake up cos your sins get forgiven every time you sleep.[/size]

Narrated in Saheeh Muslim, #121, and Mosnad Ahmad #17357.

There is just a portion out of many benefits one have as being a Muslim.  [size=16pt]plus you get to hate without guilt, sleep with 4 women now when the world comes to an end u still have 7 virgins [/size]

JJYOU: