mistergrace thank you for taking down the main OP and the topic. You can ask the mods to delete your thread and they will.

God is about to do something awesome in your life. Now that we have connected you will testify in Jesus Name.

Lennycool:

I said religion is flawed and so are the Gods they create. If I had the power of "God" and let's say I existed in the Christian setting. Then I would never had created Satan in the beginning because I knew the harm he would cause. Full stop.
But if I was God today, I would reveal myself to all of humanity in exactly the same way and with the same message, I would confirm my existence that has so rightly been questioned. I would feed the starving children and teach man a new way to exist.

Its either you did not see where I mentioned FREEWILL in my question or you conveniently ignored it so you would push a flawed answer at me. kindly read my question again.

mistergrace saw your pm and have replied

MisterGrace:


I'm into ICT business... I can create and manage databases, design/develop websites, digital marketing etc... but things are not just fine atm.

So because things are not just fine at the moment you conclude that God is non existent? Yet there are those in the same field as you and are believers that are doing fine.

I think your problem may just be psychological and not spiritual but I never know until we talk.

MisterGrace:
For over 20 years, I have been praying for and against things.
Yet bad things keeps happening anyways.

Like job loss a day after wedding and non till date.

Trying to be self sufficient with my skills but things are stiff.

I have done sacrificial offerings, fasting, seed sowing, praises, prayers all the time, but he is too powerless to act.

If it's the devil that is responsible for these bad stuffs, why can't destroy it or them so that I can concentrate on worshipping him.

Obviously prayers doesn't work or except to some other powers that I'm yet to discover.

But right now, God does not exist and if he does, he has no power and if he's got some power, maybe he is bias or selfish or he does not care about some people.

Your attitude is off and is a big problem with you. I have been privileged to relate with Nairalanders who experienced all these things you are complaining about and we talked privately and I showed them the right way to come to God and we did it together and God turned their sorrow to Joy.

1. Lost Job and marriage disappointment and within 1 month of going to God she got a good job and is about to get married and I will be on their high table in delta for the wedding.

2. A banker who lost his job since february last year and everything crumbled and was suicidal and we went to God the right way and God within 2 weeks made him a ceo of his own agro allied business with a capital of 4m to begin with and he is currently making 300k per day as profit.

3. A 70 yr old christian Nairalanders father who is a muslim and like you went from disappointment to disappointment but he wad willing to bring Jesus in and we went to God. within 1 week God showed up and linked him to a silent Billionaire in his state in kano who is married into dantatas family and a friend to Rabiu kwankwaso and he right now has bee offered a nee accomodation, official car and is to head the business of this billionaire...this is a 70yr old man

The list is endless. God exists and loves you. Perhaps we can talk privately.

Lennycool:

On the contrary I'm just trying to show you how flawed religion is. Especially when examined

You cannot examine a thing which has a spiritual foundation with your flawed human reasoning. You need to compare spiritual with spiritual in order for your view to be sensible.

So let me ask you a quick question. ..

If you were God with all the power and authority He has and you can see the future of everyone and know their thoughts and see their pain and wickedness and lies and selfishness and goodness and bitterness and hatred and debauchery and sodomy and every vile thing how would you run the affairs of these people who number as much as 7.5billion worldwide.

Especially since with all your power you allowed them to still have FREEWILL ....

So if you could be God for a year how would you handle creation bearing in mind that doing good for one could be the cause of anothers pain....

Since you say God is flawed then show us an alternative.

DeSepiero:


I understand you have the need to bow out of this conversation at the moment, but the ad Hominems are unnecessary.
Let's just say I keep an open mind on many issues.
One mustn't close up all possibilities on an issue just to favour or protect ones belief.

if you had a belief it would have been different and worth my while but last time I checked Atheism is said to not be a belief. So enjoy your life

DeSepiero:


From that site of yours, linking it to Yayin doesn't still erase that possibility because yayin is either fermented or unfermented. We both know fermentation results in alcohol production. So, in essence, Yayin can still have significant amounts of alcohol.

Like I said suite yourself. Nobody can convince a person who refuses to be convinced especially when they see themselves as an adversary.

DeSepiero:

Considering that the Greek word 'Oinos' could be used for wine (alcoholic beverage) or grape juice (nonalcoholic beverage), my research does not totally rule out the possibility that the drink in question is an alcoholic beverage.

Suite yourself especially when translators have linked the same word to the word YAYIN then I suggest you cross reference both.

Have fun.

DeSepiero:

Still on the argument I see.
But what makes you believe that the drink which Jesus allegedly produced (miraculously) is certainly a nonalcoholic beverage?

This has already been thrashed out and accepted by one of yours.

in a nutshell...Greek origin of the word for Wine used in John 2 and ots meaning and the what context the word was used.

Easy as pie. A little research goes a long way.

Geist:
how can you mean what you didn't say?

I am sure the person whom I referred my post to understood it since he began this discourse with me from the start.

raphieMontella:

lol

you guys need to carry out an intervention for FSMs aka EyehateGod aka Deicide aka AmenRa and all his other aliasis and help him out with counselling. He is slowly loosing it.

analice107:
Okay Folks, This is the my honest truth. Years back, the thought of hellfire, i mean, burning eternally in side fire scared the shiit out of me. I was not scared but very angry that God knew how difficult it is to live in this sin riddled world and maintain a pure holy Christian life fit for His kingdom, why did he create me?

To start with, i didn't ask to be created. I wasn't consulted if i wanted to come here. Why bring me here without my consent and then subject me to the (Pain i was going through at the time. As
I was facing Amputation).

I was going through very tough times. I had prayed all kinds of prayers, it seemed God was either dead or wasn't interested.

I wanted to die. I actually attempted it. Yes, i had sent and bought what i wanted to drink without my folks knowing why i sent for it. But the fear of going to hellfire if i killed myself was gnawing at me. (Dear bone fracture pains is torturous, and i had to endure it for Ten straight years).

That fact angered me even the most. I felt trapped. My life was Miserable,. As far as i was concerned, my life was over even before it began, I wanted out, but could not get out on my terms. I was angry at God.

But one thing was certain, it never occured to me to think of who I was before the accident. Did i do was i was suppose to do as a Christian girl? did i work into satans trap with my own legs? Did i willingly make myself Vulnerable?

Well, a loving father should not hold any of my misdemeanors against me. My Loving heavenly father should ve used another means to correct me, not allow satan hit me down. Did he say he loves me? Where is the Mercy we hear about?
All the questions folks ask here, i asked.


Well. Yahweh had disappointed me so, i needed to find out what others outside of Christianity talked about these things. I went into New Age Religion and started reading and seeking. I became fascinated with the works of Thursday Lopsanrampa. and other works too. I was open to everything.

As Fate could have it, I met a Christian Science Guy who was happy to lead me on, I followed.

If i had met Sarasin then (lol, love you man) i would have followed him and be a very committed follower.
But deep down, i had this hollow, a vacuum inside of me. A yearning that i wanted filled, but i didn't know what it was or how to go about filling it. I kept reading. Anything printed in English i would read, but i couldn't just throw away the christian god.

On the night i was to drink the poison, God came into my room and asked me questions. I could not have asked myself that, and no one was awake, and no one knew what i wanted to do, for i had time everything. I said, before anyone would know what was going on and get me help, i would be dead.


He said, Do you remember the accident Scene? Do you remember how close you were from being over ran by another car? You saw it (And i did). Did you stop the tires from climbing you?

There and then, i found myself in the scene of the accident again, and the scare of that approaching car which was with me for a long time returned. Then he heard Him say, 'I WAS THERE'.

I broke down and started crying that night. I asked for forgiveness and the grace to bear whatever was ahead of me.

The next day i woke feeling like was soaked inside Joy. I told my folks what happened everyone was shocked that i could even think it. For everyone had left their lives, put everything in hold just to be with me. Just imagine how selfish i was.

Now here is the question. Answer it sincerely if you'll be justified.


If you were to die today and God says to you "Why should l let you into my heaven, what reasons will you give Him?".

Bare in mind, it is His heaven.


Even ordinary Nairaland has its rules. To come inhere, you fill a form, give your datas, agree to abide by the rules governing here, without which, you'd be banned. I have been banned countless times.

So, folks don't just stay back and hate God for creating hellfire, tell him why you dont like it.


Ask yourself, Do you qualify to enter God's heaven? How so?

wow...when grace anď mercy locate you in Christ all you neèd is to trust Him. I love your testimony sis and we will all be with Jesus when its time.

God bless you

FSMs:

Free the Guy na Jesus didn't Turn Water to Alcoholic Wine it Was juice he Turned it into And the Grape juice Was A Good juice because the one they Drank Drunk Before was Just bad Juice which they Got well Drunk on Which actually mean past participle meaning Drinking..

From your choice of expressions I would rate you as a guy between 20 and 23 but even a guy in that stage of life is more intelligent and makes more sense then you do in an argument so I wonder if there isnt a deficiency with you upstairs.

Since English isnt your strong side why not start typing in your native dialect and save yourself the embarrassment of not knowing what a past participle is and when it is used in a sentence especially if people in primary 6 know it too well.

DRINK DRANK DRUNK is the order. In a sentence it goes thus;

I drank the left over wine which everyone else drunk yesterday or

I wish I hadnt drunk that wine or

You can drink that wine but make sure it isnt one someone else has already drunk

simply because the word Drunk was used does not mean a drunken state it depicts an act of previois drinking.

its like saying GET GOT GOTTEN or TAKE TOOK TAKEN or RING RANG RUNG


its simple english but I guess for you english isnt so simple.

raphieMontella:



These are your words

these are words from your link

your notion is that oinos means non-alcoholic juice alone..which is wong.

No my notion is that Oinos is a generic word for Wine in greek but is not specific for alcoholic wine. I am sure tou read rhe new link I sent you thoroughly and agree with it otherwise you would have raised more objections as you are well known to do.

raphieMontella:

shekar is a hebrew word not greek..
And if oinos meant non-alcoholic grape juice,how can oinopotes which is derived from oinos mean drunkards?
Can a drinker of juice be addicted and get drunk and be called a drunkard?

See why I say nothing would make a blind man see if he has decided to remain blind? I suggest you read up sone more. I have given you a link previously and you still wish to argue so let me give you another.

http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2008/04-10b.html

Geist:
dear, I was not ready to enter into this argument. I was only correcting uben. What you would refer to as non alcoholic wine is in fact not a wine but just grape juice whether in today's world or in ancient times. That was the point me I was driving at and not what the translations of wine are in the Bible. But for sake of curiosity. Where did you get the meaning of these your Greek words? They seem wrong to me.

The word WINE in John 2 was translated from the greek word OINOS which means non alcoholic wine but since its a generic word for Wine in greek but never used to replace SHEKAR then the translators simply translated it to WINE which many like you feel it meant ALCOHOLIC WINE when in the original greek it does not.

Google is your tool. you can look up the meaning of Oinos or Shekar and find out which was used in John 2 when wine was mentioned.

ValentineMary:
Did I say Aquinas wrote the bible ? he followed the bible teachings and claimed that since God is perfect, he must be all loving. If u don't know what all loving is, I don't think we should continue this conversation.

The Word ALL LOVING you are trying to grasp is a folly in itself because you are viewing it from a human perspective. Can you define all Loving from Gods perspective?

I have given you a scenario where I asked you to put yourself in Gods shoes with all the power you have how would ALL LOVING work for you as God.

Can you share with Tomhagen and I how you would be ALL LOVING as God and how everyone would be equally managed.

ValentineMary:
I have been ignoring u since but let me ans u one last time. Ur God, u caim is omniscient. I don't claim to be. He should know better. What's the use of being omniscient if he can't figure out how to spread his love and compassion in an unbiased way?

lol so since you have no clue what it takes to be omniscient and compassionate on Gods level while dealing with 7.5billion people on earth what then gave you the right to challenge or think God is flawed in the way He is running things.

If you have no basis for comparison and indeed cannot even imagine yourself in His shoes doing what He does then your attacks and accusations are a fraud from a fraudulent mind which only seeks to deceive and not understand. ...

I suggest you first get a credible comparison then stand tall to run down or assume God is wrong...

If you can sit quietly and imagine yourself being able to see the future of men and know their thoughts and see their errors and their pains and their selfishness and wickedness and lies and lusts and the whole 9 yards of humanity yet dropped FREEWILL in the mix so they can be accountable for their actions after ensuring you have given them the ability to choose right from wrong of which most still choose wrong and cause problems on the earth which they deny and come back to blaming God for them much like what you are doing then you would see why your arguments are like that of a Child who just opened his eyes a week after birth and demands to be put back into the womb of the mother......One word for that kid is Delusional.

Try not to ignore my questions again. I am capable of teaching you a great deal.

Geist:
first of, there is no such thing as alcoholic wine. To say alcoholic wine means that there has to be some kind of non alcoholic wine, which there isn't. It's like saying there is something like 'perfect peace' as if to say there can be a peace which isn't perfect and that's just not true. Wine itself is an alcohol, no need describing it as 'alcoholic wine' again.
Secondly I was only correcting uben who seemed to think it was only in ancient times that wine was necessarily an alcohol. Again even till today, wine remains an alcohol.

you miss the point entirely. English was derived from ancient languages and in those days certan expressions are above the literal english interpretation of then so we make do with the best possible word to fill the gap.

Wine is made from grapes and in Bible days there is a word which is used when speaking of Wine as grape Juice and that word is Oinos...this word is greek..The greek word that speaks on wine with alcoholic content is known as Shekar..

Wine in those days were seen as 2 different things...one was alcoholic which is when you allowed th grapes to ferment...the other is fresh grape extract which has not fermented hence free from alcoholic content so in order to differentiate them 2 words were brought into play.....OINOS for non alcoholic grape juice (wine) and SHEKAR for alcoholic grape juice (wine) Do you understand now

winner01 lovely piece here. Kudos

For those who just latched on to the Dark Matter issue thereby blocked out the rest of the OP are just being Childishly mischievous.

Dark Matter is invisible yet someone just gave it a convenient name to fuel his fantasy and assumption that it is what he says it is....You do not see something..you cannot measure it...you do not know its origin....its unexplainable yet you drive it and here are Atheists latching onto such by FAITH and tomorrow they will call Christians delusional..

If there is Any Atheist here who has seen dark matter or knows its origin for sure let that one stand up and be counted.....

mtcheew...Winner01 you hit this ball out of the park and its a home run....Good job bro

Geist:
actually wine at all times has always been an alcoholic beverage. Only in Nigeria will you find people who think there is such thing as none alcoholic wine. A peep in any dictionary will always refer to wine as an alcohol.

Is this thread about alcoholic wine or about the greek word translated as Wine in John 2 when Jesus turned water to wine and what that word meant in reality?

Nobody is disputing the alcoholic content of wine but like I have pointed out wine does not have to be alcoholic to be wine. The alcoholic content in wine is a choice based on large preference but not true nature.

Ubenedictus:
He is actually right, wine in ancient times refers to an alcoholic beverage. u are d one who seem ignorant.

Kindly do not quote me without going through this thread and takong advantage of the greek/hebrew guide I gave the link which offered a Greek/Hebrew guide to the original words interpreted as WINE in the Bible and what kind of WINE those words meant.

The argument here is not about if in those days wine was alcoholic the argument is if the one Jesus turned from water was alcoholic and the Greek translation clearly says it wad NOT.

Read and understand before you comment.

Besides the illustration using the old cloth and new patch or new wine in old wineskins was not referring to the intake of wine but wad referring to the embodiment of the Holy Spirit in an unclean old sinful vessel (man). NEW FOR NEW and not NEW FOR OLD thereby destroying the vessel (man).

hopefullandlurd:


I'm not dancing, you're the one dancing here

if I have foreknowledge, then there's really no freewill here since I already know what 4evergod would do with the compassion I'm about to show him, I'll use "discretion", that's where discretion comes in

if I don't have such foreknowledge, then I'll give EVERYONE

Here is where God shows you that He is God...He has foreknowledge yet allows you to utilize your free will. Foreknowledge with God does not render freewill inoperative.

Discretion when handling this balance in 7.5billion people while ensuring life continues on earth with enough provision for all 7.5billion people is where He beats you to it.

We on the other hand have tried playing God over the years but this has led to WARS, FAMINES, HATRED, TRIBALISM, DEATHS etc and then people turn around and blame God when they had the ability to use their freewill for Good but they chose selfishness and greed, bitterness and wickedness, tribalism and strife instead of the good things.

If I was God and I have foreknowledge and all power yet decided to relinquish my foreknowledge and power to an extent to man by permitting freewill among them even as they number in the billions then I must be a very merciful God as true strenght is in the management of Powet and not its exertion.

This was why He chose to come to us by way of Love through Christ Jesus.

FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON......

No man can be a better God because if you had access to all He has in power and glory and authority and foreknowledge and judgement you would have been like a kid with a new toy and would rule the affairs of men with a fist of iron with no room for opposition or freedom of expression like you Atheists have been doing with God in all your insults and mockery but God in His mercy keeps overlooking your ignorance and waiting for the day this same freewill would lead you willingly to Him.

You see God can never be you and you can never be God..His ways are not your ways and His thoughts are not yours....

hopefullandlurd:


can we stay on the compassion?

do I have foreknowledge of what each and every person would do with the compassion I'm about to give them?

would you exclude foreknowledge from freewill? If the foreknowledge you have cannot be utilized for good especially when the recipient has his own freewill to act as he pleases and this freewill would end up destroying him if not utilized correctly

How would you be a better God. Answer the question and stop dancing about.

hopefullandlurd:


you're basically asking how I'll do if I already know what someone would do with the compassion, amirite?

You basically act as if you know all about God and How he functions and you find it flawed so put yourself in His shoes...

Right now you are God how would you handle the entire 7.5 billion people in the world with their different thoughts, different dreams and aspirations, different background and character, different habits and mindsets, and all that...

Give us your Godview comparatively.