₦airaland Forum

lagerwhenindoubt:
Now that is cynical

1: They Turn popular Bible misconceptions on their head and tell you the Truth e.g Jesus did not die on the cross but on a Stake (whence Prince VLAD the Impaler got his impaling ideas)
2: God is not suffering from severe Mutliple-Personality disorder AKA Trinity Syndrome but is actually sane 1 person with 2 assistants who work in his authority
3: The Holy Spirit is God's impersonal active force not a REPO-man out to cash a cheque to the Devil for you soul
4: Jesus' ransom sacrifice did not include Adam, Ouch! that ought to hurt
5: Only the 144,000 Jehovah's Witness are born again. and will live in the new Heaven- so long for you suckers and tell that to Daddy GO
6: Satan was entrusted with the obligation and charged with the duty of overseeing the creation of the earth, (now i see why he had delusions of grandeur)
7: Jesus was only a perfect man, not God in flesh (these guys should work well with Muslims)
8: The soul ceases to exist after death (makes you wonder really)
9: There is no hell of fire where the wicked are punished
10: Jesus did not rise from the dead in his physical body

@ Bolded
Now that is cynical

johnw74:
The saved work because they are saved,
jw think they save themselves, is jw saved? I don't believe so.

Salvation is from God through God given Faith.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Good one.

@An2elect2
The article is an interesting one and it is aptly captioned, The Back From The Dead Gospel . I have always had reservation about such gospel bacause while seemingly encouraging believers to abstain from sin, they strike a deadly blow on the believer's assurance of salvation. About 1998, they was one such gospel documented as ''24 Hours Interview In Hell'' in which the message was passed that believers had no right to assurance of salvation by logical deduction of the message there. The ''prophet '' was interviewing the ''believers'' he saw in hell. One woman that was noted for her faith and good works was there and in anguish told the ''prophet'' how she got to be there. Something like, '' I was doing so well until I quarelled with a brother, I ought to have gone to him for reconcilliation, but being her elder, I expected him to come to me as custom demands, before I knew it ,I found myself in this terrible place''. I know this testimony is a lie because a believer cannot lose salvation and that I know, teach and affirm . Sadly this ''gospel'' reinforces the lie, that salvation can be lost, especially as it claims to be a ''revelation''.
Even if a friend dies and comes back from the dead and I know the details of it all, I wouldn't believe him if he said he saw believers in hell. My belief is in The Word and there is no falsehood therein.

An2elect2:
wow wow just in time. This is awesome.

And finally we thank God that the sheep know the voice of the shepherd.

Cc: 5solas

Reading! I will comment later, please.

fatdon2:
Op you can also slove mine.

6.

For more please click on this link: http://www.truecovenanter.com/gospel/zanchius_absolute_predestination.html

The following article is taken from the book,

ABSOLUTE
PREDESTINATION

by JEROME ZANCHIUS
(1516-1590).
It is hoped that it will help us understand and apply this doctrine for our good.

OBSERVATIONS ON THE DIVINE
ATTRIBUTES,

NECESSARY TO BE PREMISED,

IN ORDER TO OUR BETTER UNDERSTANDING
THE DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION.

ALTHOUGH the great and ever-blessed God is a being absolutely simple and infinitely remote from all shadow of composition, He is, nevertheless, in condescension to our weak and contracted faculties, represented in Scripture as possessed of divers Properties, or Attributes, which, though seemingly different from His Essence, are in reality essential to Him, and constitutive of His very Nature.

Of these attributes, those on which we shall now particularly descant (as being more immediately concerned in the ensuing subject) are the following ones:

His eternal wisdom and foreknowledge
The absolute freedom and liberty of His will
The perpetuity and unchangeableness both of Himself and His decrees
His omnipotence
His justice
His mercy

Without an explication of these, the doctrine of Predestination cannot be so well understood, and we shall, therefore, briefly consider them by way of preliminary to the main subject.

THE DIVINE WISDOM AND FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD.

I.—With respect to THE DIVINE WISDOM AND FOREKNOWLEDGE, I shall lay down the following positions:—

POSITION 1.—God is, and always was so perfectly wise, that nothing ever did, or does, or can elude His knowledge. He knew, from all eternity, not only what He Himself intended to do, but also what He would incline and permit others to do. "Known unto God are all His works (ap aiwnoV) from eternity" (Acts 15.18).

POSITION 2.—Consequently, God knows nothing now, nor will know anything hereafter, which He did not know and foresee from everlasting, His foreknowledge being co-eternal with Himself, and extending to everything that is or shall be done (Heb. 4.13). All things, which comprises past, present and future, are naked and open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

POSITION 3.—This foreknowledge of God is not conjectural and uncertain (for then it would not be foreknowledge), but most sure and infallible, so that whatever He foreknows to be future shall necessarily and undoubtedly come to pass. For His knowledge can no more be frustrated, or His wisdom be deceived, than He can cease to be God. Nay, could either of these be the case, He actually would cease to be God, all mistake and disappointment being absolutely incompatible with the Divine nature.

POSITION 4.—The influence which the Divine foreknowledge has on the certain futurition of the things foreknown does not render the intervention of second causes needless, nor destroy the nature of the things themselves.

My meaning is, that the prescience of God does not lay any coercive necessity on the wills of beings naturally free. For instance, man, even in his fallen state, is endued with a natural freedom of will, yet he acts, from the first to the last moment of his life, in absolute subserviency (though, perhaps, he does not know it nor design it) to the purposes and decrees of God concerning him, notwithstanding which, he is sensible of no compulsion, but acts as freely and voluntarily as if he was sui juris, subject to no control and absolutely lord of himself. This made Luther,1 after he had shown how all things necessarily and inevitably come to pass, in consequence of the sovereign will and infallible foreknowledge of God, say that "we should carefully distinguish between a necessity of infallibility and a necessity of coaction, since both good and evil men, though by their actions they fulfill the decree and appointment of God, yet are not forcibly constrained to do any thing, but act willingly."

POSITION 5.—God's foreknowledge, taken abstractedly, is not the sole cause of beings and events, but His will and foreknowledge together. Hence we find (Acts 2.23) that His determinate counsel and foreknowledge act in concert, the latter resulting from and being founded on the former.

THE WILL OF GOD.

We pass on,

II.—To consider THE WILL OF GOD, with regard to which we assert as follows:—

POSITION 1.—The Deity is possessed not only of infinite knowledge, but likewise of absolute liberty of will, so that whatever He does, or permits to be done, He does and permits freely and of His own good pleasure.

Consequently, it is His free pleasure to permit sin, since, without His permission, neither men nor devils can do anything. Now, to permit is, at least, the same as not to hinder, though it be in our power to hinder if we please, and this permission, or non-hindrance, is certainly an act of the Divine will. Hence Augustine2 says, "Those things which, seemingly, thwart the Divine will are, nevertheless, agreeable to it, for, if God did not permit them, they could not be done, and whatever God permits, He permits freely and willingly. He does nothing, neither suffers anything to be done, against His own will." And Luther3 observes that "God permitted Adam to fall into sin because He willed that he should so fall."

POSITION 2.—Although the will of God, considered in itself, is simply one and the same, yet, in condescension to the present capacities of man, the Divine will is very properly distinguished into secret and revealed. Thus it was His revealed will that Pharaoh should let the Israelites go, that Abraham should sacrifice his son, and that Peter should not deny Christ; but, as was proved by the event, it was His secret will that Pharaoh should not let Israel go (Exod. 4.21), that Abraham should not sacrifice Isaac (Gen. 22.12), and that Peter should deny his Lord (Matt. 26.34).

POSITION 3.—The will of God, respecting the salvation and condemnation of men, is never contrary to itself; He immutably wills the salvation of the elect and vice versa; nor can He ever vary or deviate from His own will in any instance whatever, so as that that should be done, which He willeth not, or that not be brought to pass, which He willeth. "My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure" (Isa. 46.10). "The counsel of the Lord standeth for ever, and the thoughts of His heart to all generations" (Psalm 33.11). "He is in one mind, and who can turn Him? and what His soul desireth, even that He doeth. For He performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with Him" (Job 23.13,14). "Being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will" (Eph. 1.11).

Thus, for instance, Hophni and Phineas hearkened not to the voice of their father, who reproved them for their wickedness, because the Lord would slay them (1 Sam. 2.25), and Sihon, king of Heshbon, would not receive the peaceable message sent him by Moses because the Lord God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that He might deliver him into the hand of Israel (Deut. 2.26,30). Thus also, to add no more, we find that there have been, and ever will be, some whose eyes God blindeth, and whose hearts He hardeneth, i.e., whom God permits to continue blind and hardened on purpose to prevent their seeing with their eyes and understanding with their hearts, and to hinder their conversion to God and spiritual healing by Him (Isa. 6.9; John 12.39,40).

POSITION 4.—Because God's will of precept may, in some instances, appear to thwart His will of determination, it does not follow either (1) that He mocks His creatures, or (2) that they are excusable for neglecting to observe His will of command.

(1) He does not hereby mock His creatures, for if men do not believe His word nor observe His precepts, the fault is not in Him, but in themselves; their unbelief and disobedience are not owing to any ill infused into them by God, but to the vitiosity of their depraved nature and the perverseness of their own wills. Now, if God invited all men to come to Him, and then shut the door of mercy against any who were desirous of entering, His invitation would be a mockery and unworthy of Himself; but we insist on it, that He does not invite all men to come to Him in a saving way, and that every individual person who is, through His gracious influence on his heart, made willing to come to Him, shall sooner or later be surely saved by Him, and that with an everlasting salvation.

(2) Man is not excusable for neglecting God's will of command. Pharaoh was faulty, and therefore justly punishable, for not obeying God's revealed will, though God's secret will rendered that obedience impossible. Abraham would have committed sin had he refused to sacrifice Isaac, and in looking to God's secret will would have acted counter to His revealed one. So Herod, Pontius Pilate, and the reprobate Jews were justly condemned for putting Christ to death, inasmuch as it was a most notorious breach of God's revealed will. "Thou shalt do no murder," yet, in slaying the Messiah, they did no more than God's hand and His counsel—i.e., His secret, ordaining will—determined before should be done (Acts 4.27,28); and Judas is justly punished for perfidiously and wickedly betraying Christ, though his perfidy and wickedness were (but not with his design) subservient to the accomplishment of the decree and word of God.

The brief of the matter is this: secret things belong to God, and those that are revealed belong to us; therefore, when we meet with a plain precept, we should simply endeavour to obey it, without tarrying to inquire into God's hidden purpose. Venerable Bucer, after taking notice how God hardened Pharaoh's heart, and making some observations on the apostle's simile of a potter and his clay, adds4 that "Though God has at least the same right over His creatures, and is at liberty to make them what He will and direct them to the end that pleaseth Himself, according to His sovereign and secret determination, yet it by no means follows that they do not act freely and spontaneously, or that the evil they commit is to be charged on God."

POSITION 5.—God's hidden will is peremptory and absolute, and therefore cannot be hindered from taking effect. God's will is nothing else than God Himself willing, consequently it is omnipotent and unfrustrable. Hence we find it termed by Augustine and the schoolmen, voluntus omnipotentissima, because whatever God wills cannot fail of being effected. This made Augustine say,5 "Evil men do many things contrary to God's revealed will, but so great is His wisdom, and so inviolable His truth, that He directs all things into those channels which He foreknew." And again,6 "No free will of the creature can resist the will of God, for man cannot so will or nill as to obstruct the Divine determination or overcome the Divine power." Once more,7 "It cannot be questioned but God does all things, and ever did, according to His own purpose: the human will cannot resist Him so as to make Him do more or less than it is His pleasure to do; quandoquidem etiam de ipsis hominum voluntatibus quod vult facit, since He does what He pleases even with the wills of men."

Misogynist2014:
Just the way actors get punished in a film and others get rewarded. That makes a lota sense.

The film example is a very good one. The villains act out their part proudly thinking they are completely in charge of their situations, never knowing they are acting out a script. No violence is done to their wills since they do what they do without feeling coerced to do them.
I loved what Odewale said in , ''The Gods are Not To Blame'' . He said, ''Do not blame the gods.... I blame my anger '' (Paraphrased).
This was a man who ran away from home when he was given a prophesy that he was destined to kill his own father and marry his own mother. However, he didn't know the supposed parents he was staying with were not his actual parents. His actual parents had given him up to be killed because they were told this very same prophesy at his birth . So in the end what happened? Simple! He killed his own father and married his own mother !

Kay17:
Finally the old tale of free will is buried.

Completely endorsed, for a tale it is.
It is a tale spun merely to hoodwink the gullible.
Ever wondered why ''free'' is always tagged to ''will'' when in essence man's will is that being discussed?

Weah96:
I was programmed as an atheist, according to you. It's out of my hands.

Btw, have you solicited the opinions of other Christians on this matter? This is my first time hearing this predestination business.

Good! So most likely you didn't have the whole picture before turning atheist.
This is the teaching of the reformers. A helpful link on premises to the understanding of predestination:http://www.truecovenanter.com/gospel/zanchius_absolute_predestination.html

johnydon22:
Why always the cut and run tactics.. habbaaa discussing with you is really fruitless. . . after every thing you were yapping even stating man has no freewill, i askee a simple question and got this thing up there as a reply.. **sighs**
@bolded, if everything goes according to god's will. it means that both your good and bad are all part of his plans for you.. (predestination)

the second bolded please what are these secondary causes that overrides the will of this your omni-potent god (remember you still said nothing happens outside his will)

No freewill, that's my stand, never forget it. So the acts of man , which is a part of the secondary causes cannot override God's.

johnydon22:
you see honestly the above makes no sense to me, please just make it simple stop the going around.. honestly i asked a simple question.[size=20] so everything you do, the sins you commit and the good things you do are actually not your own doing but is already willed to you by god [/size] whats this crap you yapped above..please give a simple answer

Your objection is in the O.P. However you don't have "freewill" to see that it has been answered.
God's will is the cause of all things, for nothing can happen outside His will. However, they are secondary causes and it is not limited to man's acts. Man's acts and its consequences are ascribed to them.And justly too.

johnydon22:
WTF. . answer his question . . what dah heck is this nonsense above ? seems to me you dont even grasp what you are yapping about looks like frustration to me.. Answer his question please..

Calm down !

Weah96:
So basically we're living in the Matrix and the God is Mr. SMITH.

Atheist right?
Bad news for you is that God cannot be frustrated. He will always achieve His purpose whether you like it or not, know it or not . That's the honest truth and for you trifling with His revealed will,there is a big pay day coming soon as you have heard afore.

johnydon22:
so everything you do, the sins you commit and good things you do are actually not your own doing but is already willed for you by god?

How does that sound to you? "The things you do are not your own?"
The good or evil you do, you do ,as far as you are concerned freely, though you can't do otherwise as He foreknew and purposed.
Logically then you at once jump to the conclusion that man cannot be culpable for those sins. Sad truth (for you) is that the Bible says they are. I am telling you the Bible's position.

johnydon22:
So you mean to imply that what ever man does is already what god willed for the person right?

Yes.

johnydon22:
Lol really? tell me again according to your own Correct analogy what man have?

Man has a will. This will is subservient to God's.

frank317:
I care less about another meaningless ranting from Paul or Job.

The question I want you to answer is... Do I have the free will to decide to play football when your God already knows I will ugo reading?

No, you don't have the freewill. Man has no freewill. The belief that man does is a grave error.

Misogynist2014:
This is a two-part question. The first part is “Did God know Satan would rebel and
Adam and Eve would sin?” The answer lies in what the Bible teaches about God’s
knowledge. We know from Scripture that God is omniscient, which literally means “all-
knowing.” Job 37:16 ; Psalm 139:2-4 , 147:5 ; Proverbs 5:21 ; Isaiah 46:9-10 ; and 1 John
3:19-20 leave no doubt that God’s knowledge is infinite and that He knows everything
that has happened in the past, is happening now, and will happen in the future.
Looking at some of the superlatives in these verses—“perfect in knowledge”; “his
understanding has no limit”; “he knows everything”—it is clear that God’s knowledge
is not merely greater than our own, but it is infinitely greater. He knows all things in
totality. Isaiah 46:10 declares He not only knows everything, but He controls
everything as well. How else could He “make known” to us what would happen in the
future and state unequivocally that His plans will come to pass? So, did God know
that Adam and Eve were going to sin? Did He know Lucifer would rebel against Him
and become Satan? Yes! Absolutely! Were they out of His control at any time?
Absolutely not. If God’s knowledge is not perfect, then there is a deficiency in His
nature. Any deficiency in God’s nature means He cannot be God, for God’s very
essence requires the perfection of all His attributes. Therefore, the answer to the first
question must, by necessity, be “yes.”
Moving on to the second part of the question, “Why did God create Satan and Adam
and Eve knowing ahead of time they were going to sin?” This question is a little
trickier because we are asking a “why” question to which the Bible does not usually
provide comprehensive answers. Despite that, we should be able to come to a limited
understanding if we examine some biblical passages. To begin, we have already seen
that God is omniscient and nothing can happen outside of His knowledge. So, if God
knew that Satan would rebel and fall from heaven and that Adam and Eve would sin,
yet He created them anyway, it must mean that the fall of mankind was part of God’s
sovereign plan from the beginning. No other answer makes sense given what we have
been saying thus far.
Now we must be careful to note that Adam and Eve falling into sin does not mean
that God is the author of sin, nor that he tempted Adam and Eve to sin (James 1:13 ).
The fall serves the purpose of God’s overall plan for creation and mankind. This,
again, must be the case, or else the fall of mankind would never have happened.
If we consider what some theologians call the "meta-narrative" (or overarching story
line) of Scripture, we see that biblical history can be roughly divided into three main
sections: 1) paradise (Genesis 1–2 ); 2) paradise lost (Genesis 3 – Revelation 20);
and 3) paradise regained ( Revelation 21–22 ). By far the largest part of the narrative
is devoted to moving from paradise lost to paradise regained. At the center of this
meta-narrative is the cross. The cross was planned from the very beginning ( Acts
2:23 ). It was foreknown and foreordained that Christ would go to the cross and give
His life as a ransom for many ( Matthew 20:28 )—those chosen by God’s foreknowledge
and predestined to be His people (Ephesians 1:4-5 ).
Reading Scripture very carefully and taking what has been said so far, we are led to
the following conclusions:
1. The rebellion of Satan and the fall of mankind were foreknown and foreordained by
God.
2. Those who would become the people of God, the elect, were foreknown and
foreordained by God.
3. The crucifixion of Christ, as atonement for God’s people, was foreknown and
foreordained by God.
So, we are left with the following questions: Why create mankind with the knowledge
of the fall? Why create mankind knowing that only some would be "saved?" Why send
Jesus knowingly to die for a people that knowingly fell into sin? From man’s
perspective, it does not make sense. If the meta-narrative moves from paradise, to
paradise lost, to paradise regained, why not just go straight to paradise regained and
avoid the whole paradise lost interlude?
The only conclusion we can come to, in view of the above assertions, is that God’s
purpose was to create a world in which His glory could be manifest in all its fullness.
The glory of God is the overarching goal of creation. In fact, it is the overarching goal
of everything He does. The universe was created to display God’s glory (Psalm 19:1 ),
and the wrath of God is revealed against those who fail to glorify God (Romans 1:23 ).
Our sin causes us to fall short of God’s glory ( Romans 3:23 ), and in the new heaven
and new earth, the glory of God is what will provide light (Revelation 21:23 ). The glory
of God is manifest when His attributes are on perfect display, and the story of
redemption is part of that.
The best place to see this in Scripture is Romans 9:19-24 . Wrath and mercy display
the riches of God’s glory, and you cannot get either without the fall of mankind.
Therefore, all of these actions—fall, election, redemption, atonement—serve the
purpose of glorifying God. When man fell into sin, God’s mercy was immediately
displayed in not killing him on the spot. God’s patience and forbearance were also on
display as mankind fell deeper into sin prior to the flood. God’s justice and wrath were
on display as He executed judgment during the flood, and God’s mercy and grace
were demonstrated as He saved Noah and his family. God’s wrath and justice will be
revealed in the future when He deals with Satan once and for all ( Revelation 20:7-10 ).
The ultimate exhibition of God’s glory was at the cross where His wrath, justice, and
mercy met. The righteous judgment of all sin was executed at the cross, and God’s
grace was on display in pouring His wrath for sin on His Son, Jesus, instead of on us.
God’s love and grace are on display in those whom He has saved ( John 3:16 ;
Ephesians 2:8-9 ). In the end, God will be glorified as His chosen people worship Him
for all eternity with the angels, and the wicked will also glorify God as His justice and
righteousness will finally be vindicated by the eternal punishment of all unrepentant
sinners (Philippians 2:11 ). None of this could have come to pass without the rebellion
of Satan and the fall of Adam and Eve.
The classic objection to this position is that God’s foreknowledge and foreordination
of the fall damages man’s freedom. In other words, if God created mankind with full
knowledge of the impending fall into sin, how can man be responsible for his sin? The
best answer to this question can be found in the Westminster Confession of Faith
chapter III:
“God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely,
and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God
the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty
or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established” (WFC, III.1)
What this is saying is that God ordains future events in such a way that our freedom
and the working of secondary causes (e.g., laws of nature) are preserved.
Theologians call this “concurrence.” God’s sovereign will flows concurrently with our
free choices in such a way that our free choices always result in the carrying out of
God’s will (by “free choices” we mean that our choices are not coerced by outside
influences).
To summarize, God knew that Satan would rebel and that Adam and Eve would sin in
the Garden of Eden. With that knowledge, God still created Lucifer and Adam and Eve
because creating them and ordaining the fall was part of His sovereign plan to
manifest His glory in all its fullness. Even though the fall was foreknown and
foreordained, our freedom in making choices is not violated because our free choices
are the means by which God’s will is carried out.
With Ifeness Seun Kay17 Davien Xcapizt Cold e.t.c.

Completely endorsed. About the greatest post I have read in Nairaland.

Very funny comments. Una wan" take laugh finish me for bank wey I dey.

Nice one, Bingbagbo.
However, I didn't see semi-Pelegianism, Arminianism and Freewill.

An2elect2:
Wow! am so happy for you 5solas. Its been a long time ago for you. Thank God forperseverance. The truth is that we are very very few. And yea, i understand what you passed through that time with no S.media. Right now i can't thank God enough for its availability, its hard to imagine how it would have been for some of us if things were as before.

Am so glad to meet you!

I also hold true the 5solas of our faith!

God bless!

Thanks. May the Lord bless you too. So glad to meet you too. Thank God for these truths , by His grace just as through the sufferings and endurance of others we've received them, so we must continue to preach them for the benefits of others.

An2elect2:
Yea we have to keep teaching for sure.

About me? Ok, i got born again few years ago through the hearing of the gospel. I didn't know it was the gospel then lol, but knew i was no longer my old self that day.

I knew within me, in my spirit, that God was solely responsible for my salvation. All thanks went to Him and my joy knew no bounds. But somehow, in my "unrenewed" mind( My mind was unto God but i was not yet in tuned with the scriptures) coupled with what I've always been told, i thought salvation was the work of God and man (synergy) and even taught so.

To cut this short,

It got to a point, God had to wake me up to the truth. I suffered serious unrest within me. I knew the scripture was true and God-breathed but i lacked understanding of it. I confessed so to God.

One day, i was listening to a "grace message" on t.v, and eureka! i saw it! God came and saved a wretched sinner like me! He didn't try to save me! He came! to save me! Grace! and i came to the realisation that God Himself will transform us from inside out! I was done with trying to continue from where the Lord "stopped" I felt light, and the joy of my salvation came back in full! haha it was as if my eyes were opened for the second time.

Then, the scriptures were opened to me. I could now see clearly Christ, salvation, God's sovereignty, The two dispensations( i mixed them up before),etc. And i was led by the Lord to listen to sermon audios, read sound materials. Read so many Spurgeon' essay, essays on monergy,etc.

Good morning!

Good morning.
All praises to God for the enlightenment. And thanks to Him also for the materials you had access to.
I easily see reformed thoughts in your comments.
For my part, after I was born again, I saw that in my witnessing I spoke as though on believing, the deed was done. I had to take a look at it to know the position of the scriptures as I had done for other subjects. That was when I saw the truth of it. About this time I had read some writings of the English reformers on grace. These were writings before Arminianism came about and so though they implied salvation could not be lost, it wasn't said categorically . I struggled with the truth for two years wondering if Satan was trying to deceive me since I was the only one I knew that believed it (this was between 1991 and 1993 when Nigerians didn't have the privilege of the internet). By 1993 , I decided to go with it, since I saw it wherever I went in The Bible. My life changed drastically as a result. Hell as a reason to live as a believer was abolished for me and knowing a righteous life was nonetheless expected of a believer, I had to find out the reasons for it.
I went through a lot of conflicts , but on the whole, I have never doubted my salvation since then.

An2elect2:
Only those who have been given eyes to see can see this. Ayoku 777, like many others out there is blind. Blind. Sad but true. What we should do, is to pray for him. Really.

You cant have God in control of everything, and worst still inside of you, and still be claiming the freedom to act without His manipulation or influence.

Amen. We have to do that and keep teaching. It might have something to do with his back-ground . Most likely it is Catholic.
About you, I am amazed at the truths I read from you, how did you come about them?

ayoku777:
You can't have it both ways. You can't say man has no freewill and then say again that his choices are his fault or doing.

Man by reason of the fall cannot will good but evil.
Acts2

23 "Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;

Even though Christ's crucifixion was determined and foreknown by God, yet the sins of those involved in it were charged to them.

Its either man has a freewill and can of his own choosing decide to do what God says not to do. Then his actions and the consequences of his actions will be all on him.

So the so called ''freewill'' of man is that he can choose to decide to do what God says not to do . How about choosing to do what God says to do? If he cannot do what God says to do, what then? Who would the consequences of this inability be on?

Or man has no freewill and can only do what God wants him to do. Then his actions and the consequences of his actions will be all on God.

Man through the fall lost the ability to do good. He cannot on his own believe the gospel.

Then if God went ahead and chose to save only some. Then the billions he didn't save; their damnation will also be on Him because, the original sin of Adam that made them sinners was the will of God -since man has no freewill.

God was not forced to make the sacrifice He did. Praises should go to Him for His decision to save some, not condemnation and attacks that He should have saved all or given all or some the opportunity to save themselves.

The sin of mankind is because we are all born in the fallen image of the first Adam. So whoever is responsible for the fall of man, is responsible for the sin of mankind.

Did Adam sin of his own freewill or according to God's will?

The will of God is the cause of all things and all things happen according to his will. Adam sinned of his own will but in line with God's permissive or secret will.

You can't have it both ways. This is the same double standard you want to ascribe to God with your "Revealed and secret will".

Have it your way, the truth is that you are not versed in these matters.

ayoku777:
5solas

There is a peace I have in my heart when I know someone has gotten what I'm saying but is still debating with an attitude of "I refuse to agree."

When I get that peace I know, the person gets me, and will come around in time.


But on a serious note. If you truly do believe that man has no freewill; and that the fall of Adam is the will of God. And that the eternal damnation of billions through the fall of Adam is the will of God. And that the unrepentance of those who hear the gospel and refuse to accept it is the will of God. And that no one goes to hell of his own freewill but are condemned by God's sovereignty through the fall of Adam that was the will of God.

If you truly believe this; then you really have a very twisted opinion of our heavenly father.

Actually, sometimes I'm expecting you to just say, "Haha, got you! You fell for it." Then I will realise that you were messing with me all along.

But if you actually do attribute all these condemnation and damnation and eternal torment to the pre-planned sovereign will of God for man, and that none of it is the consequence of man's personal choices or freewill.

Then your opinion of God is so wrong not to talk of scripturally unfounded. But I'm sure you will come around. I have that peace.

Shalom.

What I am saying is that all things happen according to the will of God, understand this . Ephesians 1:11 says that much:

11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

I said further that left alone all men would go to hell and that through the sacrifice of Christ , God decided to save some. This is my stand.
By reason of this all who place their faith in Christ cannot but be saved. I did not blame the sin of man on God .
Your view of predestination is very wrong.

Predestination in its broadest conception is the doctrine that because God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and completely sovereign, he "from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass," (Westminster Confession). "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will" (Ephesians 1:11).

You err in your concept of foreknowledge also because you make it to be dependent on man/ what God knew man would do.
What God knows man would do must necessarily be done by man , it is as simple as that.
On sovereignty your view is that God exerts it sometimes. The implication of this is that one can not know when He is doing that or not. Also that He leaves the world alone to go on its own course. How can He take care of His own if that were true?

micynute94:
U v got to realise something.... If u r saying the actions committed by Adam or Judas is not of their freewill but of God secret will... Mehnn.. Then God is a big depressed clown... Who the hell thinks of creating a perfect kingdom then plans on causing havoc and Later blame it on Man...
I mean.... from ur reasoning.... No man will go to hell (if there eva was one ) cos all we humans do on mother EARTH is acting out a script out of God's secret will...
U know what.?.. That's bullshit!!
U mean ISIS, Al Qeada, Boko Haram members are all acting according to a secret will of God??
Does it then make sense to punish them based on what u scripted.....
Like seriously....

cc: 5solas

If God does not know all that will happen before they do, then you have to admit He doesn't have control of the world.
Let those evil ones do what they may, they can do no further than He permits.
John 19

11 Jesus answered, "You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin."

2Thess. 2:7

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

ayoku777:
This will get me writng an epistle; but let me indulge.

Thank you.

You see; instances like this is what is called Sovereignty. Remember I said there are four attributes of God that interface in scripture:

Sovereignty, Predestination, Freewill and Foreknowledge.

I observe that you've just attributed ''Freewill'' to God . In all your other posts, it was attributed to man.

Sovereignty is the will of God that the will of man can't alter. When God plays this card, the will of man is suspended.

And there are instances in scripture where God played this card e.g. When He prevented Abimelech from touching Sarah.

Gen 20v6 -And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thine heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: THEREFORE SUFFERED I THEE NOT TO TOUCH HER.

This is God playing His sovereignty card over a man's will or desires. God didn't exert this sovereignty when He saw that Cain was going to kill Abel, He just warned Cain that sin was lying at his door. But left Cain to choose to sin or not.

Instances that you're refering to when the Spirit of God comes on a man without warning and speaks through him without permission is also sovereignty, e.g Saul the king, the 70 elders of Moses and Caiaphas the Highpriest.

Other prophecies in scripture carved in sovereignty are the establishment of God's kingdom on earth and the enthronment of Christ, then the coming of the new Jerusalem to earth. All these wills of God are sovereign and can't be altered by freewill. They will surely happen.

This is the soundest post I have read from you, you've just admitted that man does not always have ''freewill''.

So how about Peter's denial of Christ? How about the census ordered by Caesar? Christ's command to Peter to take a coin from the first fish he catches to pay for their taxes? In short, to number the times God exerts His sovereignty even according to your belief, is innumerable. And this is not even talking about the means to these ends. All prophecies and the means to them are included.
So if man has ''freewill'' only in things insignificant, which I do not even grant, why do we glory in his ''freewill''?

Even so; sovereignty is different from predestination and freewill. When the fulfilment of the will of God for a man is ultimately subject to the man's choices, that is predestination. Predestination is the will of God for a man that is not carved in iron. What that man does can derail it.

Example is what Adam did; what Judas did; what the nation of Israel did. They rejected God's plan and His will for them.

Other examples of predestination (will of God that is subject to freewill) are accepting or rejecting God's offer of salvation; being great or being the least in the kingdom of God. Sitting on thrones in the age to come and holding fast to your crown. Keeping your name in the book of life or having it blotted out.

The will of God is never under subjection to man's.

All these can be fulfilled or lost by freewill; by a man's personal choices.

So, in basic summation; we have:

Sovereignty: The will of God that is not subject to the freewill of man.

Predestination: The will of God for a man that is subject to the freewill of man.

Freewill: A man's power of choice to submit to God's predestined will or go his own way.

Foreknowledge: God's ability to know what a man will choose to do with his freewill.

These four attributes interface a lot in scripture, but they are different and are not the same thing.

You've attributed ''freewill'' to man again, so I understand the earlier one attributed to God was erroneously done.
Foreknowledge does not depend on the man, rather the man does willfully what God has foreknown, often without realizing it .

God's revealed or secret will is your own invention o.

It has no basis in scripture.

God is not a God of double standards. God never wanted Adam to eat of the fruit. Adam eating it was disobedience, it was not a fulfilment of God's secret will.

That God knew something will happen doesn't mean it is His handiwork, or even His will. It is still the choice of the person who committed the act.

Revealed and secret will of God is scripturally unfounded. God is not a God of double standards.

Nothing ever happens that is not God's will. The mere fact that a thing happens proves it is God's will.

johnydon22:
Lol you guys fail to know that most atheists were once theists huh?

You were not as religious as i was then.....

You might be very wrong. You will be very surprised if I told you some of the things I have been through.

i am an agnostic atheist now.... i was a catholic and this is a very old thread.. dont know how you guys resurected it again.. anyway i still know much about catholicsm tho..

Ok. Catholicism! Churning out atheists in their millions. And you would think you have seen it all.
You most likely have never been there. Anyway let's continue to rub minds. Went to check if you had a catholic background.

anyway click the link on ma signature and enjoy the story written by me..

0k, thanks.

Weah96:
Here you are applauding the benefits of human sacrifice. Later you'll be praying for native doctors to change when you yourself are carrying the mindset of a native doctor.

Human sacrifice doesn't yield any benefit other than the loss of life. The person conducting the sacrifice will himself die. It's pointless.

Don't be distressed, this sacrifice lives.

Hebrews 7

8 Here mortal men receive tithes, but there he receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives.

25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

ayoku777:
5solas

So Caiaphas speaking under unction by the Spirit is now your proof that man has no freewill?

I even forgot that man can speak by the Spirit.
So what happens to a man's ''freewill'' as he speaks by the Spirit? You said this categorically minutes ago:

The issue is just to realise that our will(freewill) is free from God's manipulation and imposition. What we do with it is entirely up to us.

Well, maybe you have the ''freewill'' to change your mind as it suits you.

So since man has no freewill, it was actually God that made Adam choose to eat of the tree He asked him not to. Then He cursed him for doing that. And sentenced mankind to a fate of eternal damnation, for doing what He made them do.

Is that your version of the fall account? Since man has no freewill according to you.

God's revealed will to Adam was not to eat of the fruit. So it was wrong for Adam to have so done. He is therefore without excuse for his disobedience. However, God knew that he would do that. In doing what he did, Adam nonetheless fulfilled God's secret will.
No one gets credit for doing God's secret will. Ask Judas what reward he got from betraying Christ.

ayoku777:
You call it will, i call it freewill; lets not trip over semantics.

The issue is just to realise that our will(freewill) is free from God's manipulation and imposition. What we do with it is entirely up to us.

We can use our will to disobey God and accept or reject His offer of salvation or warning to repent.

Tell that to Caiaphas and James:
John 11

45 ¶ Then many of the Jews who had come to Mary, and had seen the things Jesus did, believed in Him.

46 But some of them went away to the Pharisees and told them the things Jesus did.

47 Then the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered a council and said, "What shall we do? For this Man works many signs.

48 "If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation."

49 And one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all,
50 "nor do you consider that it is expedient for us that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation should perish."

51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation,

52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.

James 4

13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a profit";

14 whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away.

15 Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that."

16 But now you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.