₦airaland Forum

Ubenedictus:
you are trying to dodge the fact that you previously claim that there are parties involved in a covenant.

And this post shows very clearly why we must take context very seriously.
I can understand your argument only because I have read your previous posts.

Bidam:
Justification, salvation is a covenant made by God ALONE to mankind, no party is involved, it is a done and sealed deal.....through the blood of the everlasting covenant" (Heb. 13:20).

Amen.

24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.


25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Hebrews 7.

As to whether a believer can lose salvation, the Arminians got it wrong from the onset , by their thoughts on freewill. They thought, think and teach that a man's salvation was up to them, a cursory look at scripture and you find that this notion is false and so their whole house crumble. To succeed in their scheme they must get through a whole lot of scripture. For starters:

25 ¶ At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Mt 11.

If man is the author of salvation, then of course salvation can be lost but if God is the author of salvation, then it definitely can't be lost.

vooks:
This is not Calvin but John Darby and his erstwhile student Scoffield. Scoffield made notes as he studied scriptures and thenhe INSERTED the same in a bible. The product was Scoffield Reference Bible. In it he propagates Dispensationalism.

It is 150 years young. Am extremely cautious of NEW beliefs and teachings that were virtually nonexistent for over 1800years of Christendom. This is no difference from Catholicism and their 'traditions'-progressive revelation

In some quarters, test of orthodoxy includes believing in Scoffield Bible.

Shdemidemi and others would do well to apply their brains to looking outside Scoffield. He did well but he is as fallible as vooks. You know you got it bad if inside EVERY scripture you quote, it has to. Be 'aligned' with Dispensationalism/Scoffield.

I was shocked when I quoted the 2Peter where Peter says Paul......and shdemidemi instinctively quoted Romans a particular verse in Scoffield marginal notes never mind the fact that it was totally irrelevant to the discussion

Dispensationalism is indoctrination and it's conclusions are ones you would NEVER arrive at unless you were specifically looking to scriptures to validate your existing beliefs. And even then, you'd need to suspend logic and adopt the. Strangest hermeneutics under the sun

Seriously? Are you cautious of Arminianism then?

vooks:
It means NOBODY and NOTHING can separate you from God except yourself. God won't save you and keep you saved against your will.

Go back to Eden. NOTHING or NOBODY could separate Adam from God and disrupt the fellowship he had with God......not even the serpent. So the devil provoked Adam (Eve) to rebellion which essentially means Eve walked away from God.

This is repeated in Satan tempting the Second Adam. He tried to induce rebellion which would have meant Jesus rebelling against His Father. He failed

''My sheep'' concept stands against you. Not all people are His sheep! It is the character of His sheep to hear and follow Him. In that verse , He is giving them assurance that they will not be condemned and no one can do that. What is He saying to the purpose if they themselves can do that!
That is what would have needed addressing!
It is the Spirit that quickeneth! The flesh profiteth nothing! No man can come to Christ without being drawn by the Father!
''... no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. Matt. 11:27.

shdemidemi:


Bidam!!!

trustman:
[size=6pt][/size]

I assumed you were following my thoughts from my last post. 

What I meant is this: the 'faith' James is talking about when he talks about faith without works being dead is not 'faith' as that of 'trust' in Christ for salvation.

That's what I explained when I said:
When James made the statement 'Faith without work is dead' what he simply said is:
Faith (i.e. Biblical truth, the body of what is believed, creed) if it is not put into application(works) is barren (produces nothing, shows no results - dead).

I completely agree.
@Hiswordxray
Good works/deeds radiate from the live of a person who is truly saved , so if you are thinking you are saved and do not do good works/deeds, examine yourself, you might not be! (James 2:14-26 paraphrased ) We should look at verse 14 to 16 especially which generated his assertion that faith without works is dead.

Hiswordxray:
What did Jesus mean in these verses:
"5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:6-6)

What did He mean here:
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
John 10.

What do you think Jesus meant by this:

25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

27All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Matt. 11

Hiswordxray:
Bless God.

Thank you.

Hiswordxray:
Works of faith is not your work but a grace from God. Because works of faith is a natural response to the faith that God gave you.
So I'm not saying you were saved by your works but you were saved by grace (the works is grace ).
Do you understand?

It is because of Him that I am in Christ. He is the sole reason while I am saved and the next person is not.
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 1Cor. 1:30.

It's been more than twenty three years since that day and I keep singing:

At the cross, at the cross where I first saw the light,
And the burden of my heart rolled away,
It was there by faith I received my sight,
And now I am happy all the day!

Hiswordxray:
If you place your faith on Christ for salvation it will cause you to react in certain ways e.g:
go to a pastor
say the sinner's prayer
confess your sin
get baptized
All of these are works but act of faith not works of the law.
If you say all you need to do to be saved is believe then why did you say the sinners prayer and confess your sin. Remember Paul said you have to believe and confess your sin to be saved.
Why did Paul include confessing your sin?
Why didn't he just say believe?

Repentance itself is a gift, I hope you know that. God grants it. So I wont even say faith was my only work.

trustman:
Note that the 'faith' he's talking about is not that of 'trust' in Christ for salvation.

Are you implying I am not saved?

Hiswordxray:
Did you go to a pastor?
Did you say the sinner's prayer?
Did you confess your sin?
Did you get baptized?

I went to a brother who had preached to me some months to that time and he led me to Christ. I am baptized, I prayed the sinner's prayer , confessed my sins. I still do all that once in a while (minus the baptism) just to be sure .

Hiswordxray:
Tell me how you got saved.

I was burdened with my sin. I understood through the preaching of the gospel that if I placed my faith in Christ , I would be saved. I did just that.

Hiswordxray:
When you have faith you will naturally act and behave in certain ways and this is called the works of faith.
James was talking about the works of faith.
There is no way you can believe something and not act in accordance to what you believe - this is what James was trying to explain.
But our divine teach shdemidemi thinks James was preaching another Gospel in the same Bible.

When Paul was explaining how we get saved he said we have to believe with our heart and confess with our mouth. Confessing with our mouth is an act of faith and it is "works".
So yes faith is works and we are saved by works.

Works that had no bearing in your salvation will have no bearing in your salvation!
You see how clumsy I am forced to write because I am forced to use salvation twice in a sentence and both meaning the same thing!

Hiswordxray:
Works of faith.

Please name the works of faith and distinguish them from works of righteousness.

Hiswordxray:
Or rather word "works" used by James is different from the word "works" Paul used.

Paul says we are not saved by our ''works of righteousness''- Titus 3:5. So what other works can be added to ''faith'' ?

shdemidemi:
@Bidam

I so hate you this morning , sometimes you just get me confused. Is it like there is a multi ownership of your moniker or what?

You don talk true today, I respect it but hmm, the way you take a U-turn sometimes.

I asked him this same question once. The truth is that you are reading his present position.

vooks:
Eternal security is an invention of Calvin and is a central tenet Calvinism and the various creeds emanating from it. Guys are busy defending dead men and their systems and they won't let facts confuse them

When you think about it,there is a continuum of beliefs from Eternal Insecurity where NOBODY is sure of their eternity to Eternal Security where your eternity is so sealed and NOTHING you do can undo that.

There is a wealth of scriptures against both position. I believe in Conditional Security. You are assured of your eternity as long as you remain in faith. You depart from faith and you are damned.

You probably don't know that before Calvin , there was no talk of ''loss of salvation''.
Conditional security = No security.

Bidam:
I do not believe the doctrine of eternal security is the invention of calvin. The same calvin quoted the pauline epistles to butress his arguments as do Jacobus Arminius who also teaches that you can lose eternal life by sinning after your freewill decision that got salvation started. OSAS is used truthfully if it is applied to the will of God in election, the death of Christ in justification, or the cleansing of the Spirit in regeneration. We can glory in this manmade phrase by applying it to the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ,the faithfulness and power of God and the meritorious value and perpetual intercession of Jesus Christ.

Bidam! You are on fire!

Hiswordxray:
Are you saying James teaching contradict Paul's teaching?

I am saying he did not. And I am saying he did not use it in the same sense as Paul.

Hiswordxray:
The problem with human being is that when they don't understand something they call it false - this is the reason Christians are turning to atheist.

Why don't you ask me to explain myself?
Instead of crying "false"

I said it was so funny and so false because Eph:2:8,9 was on my mind - '' For by grace are you saved through faith...'' In my mind I was considering the contrary, '' For by grace are you saved through works...''
You can explain what you meant though, please.

Hiswordxray:
Aren't we justified so that we can be saved?

We are.

Hiswordxray:
Or can we be saved without being justified?

Of course not!

Hiswordxray:
Now James said "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

Just accept that you don't know so that we can teach you.
Like I said before there is a difference between works of the flesh and works of faith.

Justification = Salvation
Justification is not equal to being born again + good works.
When the Bible says salvation is not by works, it does not make a distinction of works as you now do, if it did, it would be saying nothing to the purpose. This is because anywhere it is said that salvation is not of works, what is implied is that - it is not deserved!
If James uses '' justified '' in the same sense as Paul, then he contradicted Paul more than a hundred times!

Hiswordxray:
So you are saying Paul's writing is inspired by the Spirit why James writing is not inspired by the Spirit?
Are you satisfied Paul is a Christian while James (one of Jesus disciple) is in Judaism?
Can you ear yourself?

Well... the two views are in perfect agreement.
Those verse you quoted from different versions are in perfect harmony with what James said.

Let me bring it out:
We are saved by grace through works.
And Yes, grace with work is not grace
Perfect harmony...

There is a difference between works of flesh and works of faith.

This is so funny and so false.

BabaGnoni:
Exactly, why reverting to the sinner tag then?
Will give you the benefit of the doubt that you missed reading the BOLD especially, in the reproduced below from the excerpt:

- as a matter of fact & truth, if/when saints sin or when their world crumbles, saints can go/come boldly to the throne of our gracious God. There, saints will receive His mercy, and will find assistance and grace to help saints when saints need it most (i.e. Hebrews 4:15-16)

*Sighs*
You cannot get round it, one who sins is a sinner.

BabaGnoni:
If Once Saved, Always Saved is true, one wonders why almost all the books in the NT warns believers against apostasy

We will get to this , but let us understand the facts of our salvation.

Hiswordxray:
Faith is a word use by many people apart from Christians but if you are asking of the Christian Faith then I would give you this verse
"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;" (Heb 12:3).
Faith is not something that comes and jump on you. Faith requires your effort because faith is looking (the gaze of the soul).
Faith don't just involves looking but also reacting to what you are looking at. You can't look without reacting, this is why James said "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:26).

James also said something interesting I would like to quote "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." (James 2: 24).

Faith is God-given. In those that are saved, works are the products of that justifying faith and are the effects of salvation not by any iota the cause.

BabaGnoni:
My sentiments exactly except for the sinner tag used on believers (i.e. saints or righteous)
One reverts back to a sinner after apostasy (i.e. after leaving the faith) then sin committed after is recorded and counted against one
Believers can leave the faith and do leave the faith
Almost every book or chapter in the NT warns about apostasy (i.e. leaving the faith)
If Once Saved, Always Saved is true, one wonders why almost all the books in the NT warns believers against apostasy

- EXCERPT -

saints that sin or saints sinning dont necessarily make them outright sinners
(i.e. this is because of 2 Corinthians 5:17, Romans 8:1-10, 1 John 1:8 and Hebrews 4:15-16)
- as a matter of fact & truth, if/when saints sin or when their world crumbles, saints can go/come boldly to the throne of our gracious God. There, saints will receive His mercy, and will find assistance and grace to help saints when saints need it most (i.e. Hebrews 4:15-16)

https://www.nairaland.com/2076644/christian-justify-still-guilty-charged#29561144

- EXCERPT -

We are saints by imputation, not by our deeds. The question that remains is, do we still sin?

shdemidemi:
God must be very busy wiping out names and replacing them when we ask for forgiveness.

If the condition for making heaven is based on what we do while under the blood of the lamb, then there is absolutely no need for the blood in the first place.

The blood is a shield from the angel of death, if death can yet whisk us from God's grasp then there is no GRACE in the first place. Ofcourse this isn't so, because
Romans 8
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's [size=28pt]elect[/size]? It is God that [size=28pt]justifieth[/size].

34 Who is he that [size=28pt]condemneth[/size]? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?....

Great post!

italo:
Disqualified in the sense in bold below:

Matt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?’ 23 Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.’

Those people were justified, since the were strong believers who even performed miracles in Jesus' name...yet they were disqualified.

He will say to them, I NEVER knew you.