₦airaland Forum

Patchesagain:
go look up the definition of C2 - a general and a radio constitute C2.

So Nigeria has no army general with a radio ?

Patchesagain:
After reading your post I KNOW you are a slowpoke

1. All 5000 can be deployed, rotated through units in donor nations armies

AMANI trained only 5,000 troops, AU has only those men trained to deploy together.

If you rotate them with troops who did NOT train under AMANI doctrine, tactics, and equipment, then you have defeated the purpose, you end up with a rotational replacement/relieve force of a brand new set of 5,000 troops who have NEVER trained together ! Then we don't need an AU force trained in AMANI if we can deploy just any 5,000 troops randomly picked from 10 different countries....you have defeated the purpose of joint excercise, blending, and interoperability.

See how emotions blinds a man from reality of warfare.

Gabon showing Mirage Jets

Best ever from Ethiopian air force, ace pilot legesse

snydergp1st:
Ok so you also in on the insult brigade.

You don't get my point, I don't blame you. I showed you what is produced in SA and exported to so called "super powers", it was a responds to what your fellow countryman claimed that Proforce and Dicon produces LAV's and MRAP's that's on par with SA.

Deal with it.

Namibia builds MRAP...so what's the big deal about MRAP?

Super powers have stopped buying South African MRAPs long ago, USA, UK, now build better MRAPs than South Africa, go see the Couger MRAP. Also check out the Wildcat MRAP from Israel. Even Israel and Saudi Arabia make better MRAP than South Africa today, the world has overtaken you while you were busy boasting !

jln115:
Why must it be Toyota based? Can't you guys build a LAV which is not based on a Toyota?

Igirigi LAV is based on Ford chassis as we hear

snydergp1st:
There's only 2 standards the cheap 3rd world standard manufactured in Nigeria Pic1

Then there's the made in South Africa world standard Pic2

United Nations buying made in Nigeria LAV is hurting you guys badly in South Africa....we are taking UN market from you soon, as well as AU market....watch out for out coming MRAP and tracked IFV.

Meanwhile, enjoy proudly made in Nigeria LATV....Light Armoured Tactical Vehicle, the first one is being made to have amphibious version, the second one to favour special forces or regular forces patrol ops....ALL PROUDLY MADE IN NIGERIA by black Nigerians making world class equipment that United Nations is happy to buy as world class quality....we don't have a defence industry owned by Europeans....like SA depends on foreign companies.

Proudly Nigerian !

jln115:
How am i being mischievous? Both are LAVs

List out the technical specs of each one and prove to us how yours is 'better'....or is it photos you use to fight on battlefield? Show tech data.

MikeCZAR:
The mo..ron sees no difference between a strategic exercise and a tactical one.

Call me a mo...ron and get 5 of your friends to like your comment. It won't stop me from speaking for the general good of Africa.

Strategic what? You think the 5,000 man AU force will all fight one single battle in one area of operation together as a 5,000 man brigade?

Do you know the universal rules about intervention forces and general military deployment rules?

1. AU force of 5,000 will be able to deploy only about 2,500 in a country at a time, or else how will they do troop rotation every 6 months if all 5,000 men deploy in one country at the same time?

2. AU force may need to intervene in more than one country at a time, e.g Cameroon, Libya, and Somalia needs urgent help now. Means maybe 1,250 men only will be deployed in each country if AU chooses two out of the three that needs help.

3. AU force of 1,250 troops in say Somalia, and El-Shabbab attacks two different cities in east and west Somalia. Means about 500 troops will respond to each area of operation while the remaining 250 will garrison the AU base. God help AU that it is not aBoko Haram type of asymmetric and highly mobile warfare where 500 Bokos will each attack 5 different towns in one week spread over a battle space the size of Scotland.

4. Your big strategic size 5,000 troop AMANI force will end up in reality fighting as detachments of small sized tactical units of about 500 men in reality of todays kind of asymmetric war threats ravaging Africa !

You still think I am a m...oron ?

Patchesagain:
Jesus, this guy speaks authoritativly about a 3 week 5000 man exercise and the only thing he knows about it is what he saw in a ~2 hour press demo that involved about ~400 men.

Chief, stop speculating as if AMANI involved some secret super training like USA Navy SEALS and US Army Rangers.

Show us photos of what AMANI involved that was different from a whole 3 hour video that has shown us what they learnt. FLINTLOCK showed us the various things they did in open field and sub urban built up areas, we saw all photos. Show us anything from AMANI training in a battle space with mock buildings for mock urban warfare, or is AMANI a top secret society operation that the world must not see ?
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snydergp1st:
Can you please show me the C2 system Nigerian Army has integrated into its units.

Nigerian army has C2....Command & Control....that is the meaning of C2....

Nigerian army for a long time operates one major central C2 base in Abuja for national defence command and control, and a brand new C2 was recently opened in Maiduguri 2015 for battle theatre epicenter command and control.... C2

"From Maiduguri, Colonel Sani Usman, acting director of public relations for the Nigerian army, said, “The president, during his inaugural address…made mention of relocating command and control center to the epicenter of the war front.”

He said the center will serve as a forward command base.

“Essentially, it is an elaboration of the already existing army headquarters command and control. Invariably, the fight against terrorism and the insurgency will be monitored, coordinated and controlled from this center."

http://www.voanews.com/content/nigeria-boko-haram-8jun15/2812139.html

MikeCZAR:
Amani was an exercise not training.

Definition of the United States Department of Defense military term "exercise "

A military maneuver or simulated wartime operation involving planning, preparation, and execution. It is carried out for the purpose of training and evaluation. It may be a multinational, joint, or single-Service exercise, depending on participating organizations.

http://www.militaryfactory.com/dictionary/military-terms-defined.asp?term_id=1960

AMANI is training, exercise is training, stop misleading people all over Africa, please .


The world powers are moving away from AMANI style conventional warfare training when they deploy troops for the current types of threat the world is facing, that AMANI order of battle and engagement formations/tactics will fail in Mogadishu or Maiduguri when El-Shabab or Boko Haram strikes in urban warfare guerrilla style among hundreds of thousands of civilians.

USA, Russia, France, Britain, have all learnt that lesson and the US Army is now re-training tens of thousands of troops to acquire battle craft for fighting the new type of unconventional threats facing the world today, and Africa included.

Watch the battle theatres used in Flintlock 2015 exercise, poor Chad provided both open desert and sub-urban built up theatres for the exercise, that tells you they as the host have experience of African needs and they feel responsibility to provide excellent battle theatres of different types.

That is what we are saying, relevant training matching the current type of threats prevailing in Africa today. Let us not mislead the whole of Africa just because we don't want our country to be criticized for not doing all it should do as a host, the peace of Africa is more important than personal nationalistic ego.

PHOTOS : EXERCISE FLINTLOCK 2015 IN CHAD

Patchesagain:
also Henry120- augustine confirms Nigeria has no datalink

[reffering to what should be purchased from india] Tactical data link for all 3 armed forces to be on one network of secure and real time communication.
https://beegeagle./2015/10/24/nigerian-troops-dislodge-boko-haram-from-kerenowa-chikun-gudu-5-brigade-destroy-over-20-well-fortified-camps/

So that is another thing your blokes would have been learning about

You quote Beegeagle when it suits your wish, but when it does not, you say Beegeagle is a mere blog and not a reliable source

Is Augustine a Nigerian armed forces General to know all types of communication technology the military has?

Patchesagain:
1. Citation needed for training rounds

2. Who will provide man marker equipment? Just doing a live-fire exercises is intense enough, I dont think you realize how much pressure those men are under.

2. Citations for live fire-combined arms exercises held by other nations.

3. Show us that AMANI did not have an urban element, please stop speculating on what you cannot confirm

4. Show us that AMANI did not do high level training like navy seals, please stop speculating on what you cannot confirm

You are complaining because your anti-RSA BIAS is showing again. You are basing your entire opinion on a DEMONSTRATION HELD FOR THE PRESS. And you have no idea what the exercise is comprised of - so you are speculating.

This thread is NOT a forum for projecting national pride at the expense of Africa`s progress.

Carry your argument and calls for endless citations to another thread.

I have raised my objections about AMANI and it`s for Africa to do better next time, mediocrity does not bring greatness.
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stillchris:
@augugust relax na . You don't expect SA to empty a town so African militaries can learn to fight in it.

That facility happens to be the same with most standard training facilities and I believe the responsibility of urban warfare training is on the contributing countries.

Don't forget you are talking about an AU that can barely fund it's budget. Not to talk of the poor countries that can't afford bulletproof vests for their infantry.

Simply put bro, what you are proposing is damn too expensive.

The key thing for this AU force is command and control which I believe was highlighted by frum.

Nope chief, watch this video....how did Nigeria alone fund the cost of different battle thearters for training those thousands of troops in that video....open desert, mountains, and urban city is simulated with prefab houses, buildings, walls, windows, rooms, etc. How did Nigeria alone fund all these?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDkybigIskw

Responsibility rests with the host of an exercise to provide relevant battle scenarios and theatres. South Africa did not want to spend money, they are waiting for AU to pay for everything, yet they want to be the host.

What is worth doing is worth doing well, AMANI is a waste of time for armies that have advanced beyond that low level like Angola, Uganda, Kenya, Nigeria.

Bros, I am complaining because Africa has a traditional habit of not doing things right and feeling good about it.

Patchesagain:
Where does it say that they own 90% of it?

Where?

South African defense industry minus Thales minus Rheinmetall minus BAE = Rifle and MRAP industry
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Patchesagain:
Are you being serious?

This is your argument?

Not even worth responding to. New levels of patheticness reached in an attempt to mask the failures of Nigeria to develop an indigenous defence industry

Nigeria has a better indigenous defence industry, we don`t claim European products as our own like you Southies fraudulently do.

DICON builds our infantry hardware, PROFORCE builds armoured vehicles and armoured gunboats, BADEH AEROSPACE builds world class drones for us, Nigerian army engineers build our armoured vehicles, Nigerian air force engineers build our jet fighter rocket munitions and robots, Nigerian air force engineers are developing our light aircraft, Nigerian army engineers build our Spy Balloons....something South African indigenous defence industry has not achieved as you still wait for an European company to open branch in your country to do that for you.

Nigerian defence industry is proudly Nigerian. South African defence industry is proudly European owned
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Patchesagain:
Something not even Nigeria can manage to do

MRAP is easy to build, even Namibia builds MRAP.

Nigeria is building our own MRAP at Proforce industries.....see....

https://i66.tinypic.com/wlpt78.jpg

FighterPilot:
[/s]

All this amount to garbage, there is nothing that foreigners produce from SA defence industry. All those European companies bought existing South African companies which were already actively in service manufacturing their products. BAE, SAAB and Thales all bought SA companies which were actively in business producing their weapons. They merely bought those companies because they were their competitors. That's all.

Nope, the European defense companies opened foreign branches in South Africa and produce European weapons on your soil, they call the products local South African names to colour and mask them as South African made so that your BEE obsessed ANC government can buy those weapons for SANDF and deceive yourselves and the outside world that the products are proudly South African....but they are 100% European technology.

Same thing happens with the claims, fake claims that South Africa produces Toyota, Nissan, BMW and therefore those cars are proudly South African.....Fools, liars, frauds, Japan owns Toyota and Nissan, Germany owns BMW....Same way Britain, France and Germany owns 90% of South Africa's high tech defense industry. FACT !!
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jln115:
1. Even training rounds never ever get firef directly on troops.....I mean what are you training to do? Are you training to kill your own troops? The fact that live ammunition was used made the training even more life like.

2. Exercise Amani was held for three weeks!! Do you think this was the only exercise held? Several exercises were held, all of them focusing on different scenarios including urban warfare and night fighting.

3. This wasn't the only exercise... It was one of many, during exercise Amani, most of the troops especially those not in the SANDF have never been in a situation were they had a training exercises where live morter round fell just meters from them...never mind the fact that IFVs Tanks and Attack helicopters were firing live aamuntion amuntion as well.

Training rounds get fired on troops and man marker bullets stick to your body and shows you got hit in battle.

Most of those armies have had live ammunition fired at them like Uganda, Kenya, Angola, Nigeria, etc. It's SANDF that should go do live ammo firing if they don't have the experience, please NO INSULT INTENDED. No worthy army finds it new to see live ammo fired around them.

Show us evidence of AMANI exercise done in urban setting, please stop speculating on what you cannot confirm.

Don't begin to fabricate imaginary stories of how AMANI has special training like US Navy SEALS just that they did not show us....dude, they did nothing like that level in AMANI.

Just complaining that AMANI is a poor show.....how does that type of training help an AU force facing a Black Hawk down battle scenario in the battle of Mogadishu Somalia? That is what I am complaining about.

Msauza:
DENEL WHICH PRODUCES MOST (70%)WEAPONS IN SOUTH AFRICA IS 100% PROUDLY SOUTH AFRICAN OWNED COMPANY.

Most of DENEL production is Rifles and MRAPs...LOL...DICON Nigeria produces rifles too, and NA Engrs produce APC, Proforce building our MRAP.

So where is all your so called indegenous South African Hi-Tech stuff? Plenty of European owned equipment, radars, advanced ammunition, electronics and optronics, Brazilian missile technology transfer, Finland's Badger IFV tech transfer....

90% of South African defence industry is OWNED by EUROPEAN COMPANIES ! Fact !!!

South African claims of owning advanced defence industry is FAKE !
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MikeCZAR:
Each individual nation will be using its equipment. If needed like the command stuff prior the exercise will be trained in using some equipment.

Inter - operability in terms communications systems will be a problem in the medium term.

My point exactly, Africa should learn to do things right the first time and stop the habit of faltering 5 times before using basic sense and thinking.

All armies should have shipped in their own equipment for AMANI, the host should have provided a simulated sub urban battle scenario as it happens in today's African conflicts, the AU force is not going to intervene in wide open barren land desert style Arab-Israeli war of 1973.

What is worth doing is worth doing well. When you train for war, make it look real.

MikeCZAR:
Tanzania, South Africa and Malawi are a great example in the DRC.

DRC war was an easy UN intervention against a dead M23 force that was already crippled by UN cutting off their logistics and military support.

When you face Boko Haram, El-Shabab, ISIS, you will see why 5 national armies will battle terrorists for 5 years and still not win. Go ask NATO in Afghanistan and Iraq.

MikeCZAR:
Yes or No was he's training effective or ineffective?

And where was he trained?

Is Eben part of today's SANDF ? He was trained by old apartheid SADF not current SANDF.

He was not the only one who trained Nigerians, he trained about 120 men of 72 mobile strike force. Russia and Pakistan trained 5,000 NA men who led the final offensive and were very effective, see their photos all over this thread, just scroll a few pages back and see the Russian Nigerians !

Israeli PMC trained large battalions, so Eben did only a very tiny fraction of training Nigerians.

Video : Israeli Nirtal Ltd PMC training Nigerian SF in North East war zone...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDkybigIskw

Don't personalize the matter, I believe AU did not do a good training worth the effort in South Africa, AU problem, but the host should have provided an adequate battle theatre that reflects current African needs.....or are they only going to intervene in open land desert wars?

MikeCZAR:
It isn't abour individual countries.

A united force should blend, that is interoperability, they lack such, only SANDF equipment was used to train 90%. You don't go to war with equipment you do not have or own, or train with at home.

MikeCZAR:
You're clueless.

120mm mortars were used during the final assault.
Fighter aircraft were used.
armoured personnel carriers were used.
IFVs were used.

90% of equipment used were SANDF owned, you had about 8 other armies carrying only rifles about, what type of multinational force training is that? Training with equipment that you do not own and will not use in war. Waste of time. Each army should have shipped it's own vehicle by sea.

When that force goes into real conflict, they will be total strangers to each other in terms of equipment inter-operability.

MikeCZAR:
You're clueless.

The mercenaries or whatever you prefer calling them which trained the 72nd strike force were trained in that theatre and I believe they were effective.

Col. Eben has said he is NOT a mercenary, he is PMC, trainer NOT fighter.

Did Eben Barlow's PMC take you along into his training field with 72 mobile strike force? Did you see their urban or sub urban theatre training? You followed them around training time for 3 months in North East Nigeria?

Patchesagain:
are you re.tarded?

It was a DEMONSTRATION at the end of the exercise!!!

A DEMONSTRATION for the PRESS and DIGNITORIES

Nothing special happened beyond what we saw.

Battle theatre is 'wrong' based on current African conflict environments.

Armies were using equipment they do not own and will not use in real conflict, or will Nigerian army drive SANDF Rooikat to war ?

jln115:
I've been thinking!! Maybe agubugu has a point!! Instead of having morter rounds and cannon/rocket fire from the Rooivalk landing a few meters from the front line, we should instead have them landing directly on top of the troops, that way the troops that die gain experience from dieing and thus know what to do when they die again in a real war.

I mean how can we argue with a military researcher who works for an accounting firm in the US who also do military researching in their spare time.

Emotions and rhetoric do not defeat tactical military facts.

Yes there are training mortar rounds and training cannon rounds if you did not know. They get fired on troops and harm nobody, non-lethal rounds for combat training.

I was not condemning anybody, just not happy that this is all Africa could do, how will that type of training help in a real El-Shabbab, Boko Haram or Seleka attack on an urban city with 100,000 civilians in the war theatre at 12 midnight in total darkness?

That is the type of conflict Africa is facing today, not the type of scenario painted in that exercise, most of what they did there is just a repeat of basic military academy training for new recruits. Most armies that went there gained next to nothing after travelling 2,000 km from home.

How many African conflicts today are happening in a wide open empty dry land, and require AU intervention force?

The battle theatre provided by South Africa is grossly inadequate in terms of today's African conflict realities.

frumentius:
He also doesn't know that South Africa did not organise anything. We simply offered the Lohatla CTC, our Combat & Control infrastructure as well as equipment and troops.
This was an AU Exercise whose Director was a retired Nigerian general with scenarios drawn up by the AU Peace and Security Council. Then again what do you expect from someone who doesn't know how artillery works.

The vehicle and equipment used in the exercise were 90% SANDF stuff. How does a foreign officer control the show? The host army has it's limits of capability and what it is willing to do as combat drills. You don't impose your will on another country's army, what could the Nigerian director do with an army he does not own?

Go back to the older pages of this thread and see that style of training exercise done at AMANI.....it is 100% SANDF style and format of training....lots of coloured smoke, slow pace vehicular movement, firing guns and shells into on wide open empty land space where there is no simulated enemy, assault course obstacles or simulated civilian presence as in a sub urban environment. Nigerian, Ugandan, Kenyan army do not train like that. Nigerian director, but he is compelled to act out a 100% South African style written training script.

I just believe Africa should do better, that training will not win them a tough war like facing ISIS, Seleka, Boko Haram or El-Shabab.

Who does not know how artillery works? SANDF you mean? They have not fired artillery in combat since 20 years ago.

Patchesagain:
Augubug does not understand what globalization is.

He does not understand that we have products that Europeans know will make them money.

He does not understand that they want to make money selling them.

Europeans OWN 90% your over-hyped South African defence industry....Southies build almost NOTHING !

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Patchesagain:
[size=13pt]"Its ok that our defence industry is sh1t because its 100% black sh1t"

So you say that our firms are owned by Europeans.

But you are also saying that BEE laws requires that these firms have MAJORITY South African ownership?

Which is it? One statement is false... which one? [/size]

[size=13pt] Since all you South Africans are too dull to interpret your own country's business law, we Nigerians did it for you yesterday.

South African over-hyped, so called 'advanced defense industry' is 90% European owned companies exporting technical manpower, hardware, software, spare parts, factory production machinery, engineers, technicians, etc massively into South Africa into companies that have been formed as South African based foreign branches, which South African BEE law compels to sell shares to black Southie block-headed dullards and change the company names to include South Africa's name.

The ANC Southie law forces this share sales as a condition for government patronage and contracts, otherwise SANDF will NOT buy anything from those European companies and their businesses will collapse and die.

That law allows the Europeans to control the technology and manufacturing, while South Africa's incompetent BEE managers and directors control administration with their shareholdings.

http://www.uhy.com/wp-content/uploads/Doing-Business-in-South-Africa.pdf

European owners in the head offices of the parent companies in Europe still have the power to pull out of South Africa if they wish, then the so called defence industry of South Africa will collpase and be reduced to mere MRAP manufacturing majorly.

In accounting and finance, it is what we call foreign subsidiary with majority or minority shareholding interest.

If the Europeans pull out, South African defence industry will collapse, they own you !

Now Exposed : South African defence industry is 90% European companies foreign branches ! [/size]

https://d386vep05x5edh.cloudfront.net/product_images/1156/1156899_500px_jpg/thales_s_a_france_company_reports.jpg
https://www.adsadvance.co.uk/media/images/2013/Thales%20125th%20UK%20PM%20lasgow%204%20April%202013.jpg
https://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02730/bae_2730019b.jpg
https://image.slidesharecdn.com/session17jasper-130509102237-phpapp02/95/session17-jasper-5-638.jpg?cb=1368095157

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