₦airaland Forum

OkaiCorne:
It's nice of you to bring an advanced level Creator (Eternal Creator) into a basic level argument. My Parents are conscious and intelligent beings...hence energy alone is not sufficient to explain you or my existence as a conscious and intelligent life form.

Are you reaching this conclusion based on your own discretion and understanding? Or based on my explanations?

I have explained to you that energy which is unconscious and as a result of that also unintelligent can form intelligent, unintelligent and also conscious and unconscious things. Someone who understands this process will basically know that energy is sufficient.

Energy is sufficient, I guess you saw it, hence the hasty conclusion. I did not bring any advance level creator to the basic level of any argument. You will not conclude on my behalf, you cannot.

If you see energy as basic, I cannot help you to see otherwise. You are forcing your eternal creator into the argument, we are not going to get anywhere with that.

Both on the advanced and basic level as you understand it, Energy is solely responsible. No matter what you may think bro.

OkaiCorne:
I have no qualms on the importance of energy in the creation of the Universe...but concluding that energy alone is responsible is an incomplete assertion.

Let's use yourself as an example...if you have energy without consciousness or intelligence, you will not be able to create anything that has a pattern or structure...on the flip-side... without energy, your consciousness and intelligence is irrelevant. Consciousness, Intelligence (don't mistake this for perfection) and Energy are totally dependent on each other in order to create something meaningful.

You can always extrapolate this view point from a basic level to an advanced level...and it would still hold water.

Energy is essential...but can do nothing meaningful on its own without consciousness and intelligence involved.

You know one thing you're doing? You're abusing knowledge. You simply don't know anything about energy.

You don't need to put energy into use before it does work. Energy is spontaneous and nothing can change that.

You need to understand the spontaneity fact before you know if extrapolation is possible, which in fact is. But the acceptance very tough for you.

Why not try to extrapolate the imperfection of your external creator first. If a perfect external creator is making imperfect things, are you not supposed throw it away?

It's very simple, good cannot bore evil, perfection can never bear imperfection.

A perfect eternal creator (intelligent + conscious) cannot bear (unintelligent and unconscious) beings, extrapolate that.

And also extrapolate this, energy(unconscious) can randomly form conscious and unconscious beings

Except if your eternal creator also act randomly, but I doubt that because you have reiterated many times that he structured everything.

OkaiCorne:
@ Akin1212

1) If Energy alone is responsible for the creation of the Universe (Advanced Level) and everything in it, kindly give an example at the basic level on how Energy alone with zero input of intelligence and consciousness can create intelligent and conscious life forms?
I remember Graycoder using me as an example of energy alone being responsible for my creation..and I outrightly reject that point of view because my Parents are conscious and intelligent creatures who had to exert energy for my conception (Intelligence+Consciousness+ Energy created me and every other human being I know of...even robots are not exempted)

1) Why are you creating such a fuss? What's life on a basic level? Life is advanced just like the Universe. There is nothing like life on a basic level. The same spontaneity responsible for the creation(expansion) of the universe is the same responsible for life.

You are getting everything wrong, seriously. Now let me break it down for you.

I want to believe Graycoder honestly used you as an example to align with the notion you may have that your eternal creator created everybody, to explain that you are a function of energy as a creator just like everybody. We all know we are a reproductive product of sperm and ovum from your parents. It's only rational because if you believe eternal creator also created you, then why did you parents also conceive you?
Your explanation would be God created you. Which we all know your parents birthed you.
Graycoder's was Energy created you. Which we all know your parents birthed you.

But where the energy became valid in the argument is this. The unconscious energy and unintelligent energy made you look normal and okay, randomly it could have made you blind from birth, lame from birth and other deformities which do happen. But it's not the energy's fault because it is unintelligent and unconscious.

- And this is where eternal creator or God became invalid in the argument. If an intelligent creator or a conscious God created you and every human being you know, then those who are misformed are probably not humans, what do you call them?

- An intelligent creator will not create a baby with a head as big as a fist, would he? An intelligent creator would not create a lunatic, would he? An intelligent creator would not create a baby that cannot walk and have a very limited chance of survival among fellow humans who walk, would he?

- And if he is in the least conscious at all, he would discover the fetus forming in the womb and attempt to repair it before being born, but he doesn't, does he? You said he cannot do everything, but I guess his mighty powers does not extend to doing things like these, does it?

Energy wins all the time, and I think you need to start outrightly reject accepting that simple fact.

OkaiCorne:
2) If there is no example to back up your theory at the basic level...then why should the theory be valid at an advanced level?
You can counter this question with a basic example of how energy is solely responsible for the creation of conscious & intelligent life forms and by extension the Universe.

2) I have expressed my answer to you up there, and what you're asking here does not in any form relate to number one question. What is the creation of life at the basic level? There is nothing like that bro.

Energy works both at the basic level and advanced level, I think we need to differentiate what the advance level is and what the basic level is. What do you understand or mean by Advanced level and Basic level? Can you give an example maybe I can understand your question better?

OkaiCorne:
3) If Energy alone is not responsible for the Universe...what else can complement energy to make this possible?
No need to answer this question if you still hold on to the view that Energy is solely responsible for the Universe.

PLEASE TRY NOT TO BE ANGRY AT ME FOR THESE QUESTIONS. THANKS BOSS.

3) Energy alone is solely responsible, universal energy. But when energy, which has always existed, formed the universe, it came along with dark energy and dark matter. Dark energy has been responsible for the expansion and dark responsible for the slowing down of the expansion. These combined effects created an acceleration for the expansion of the universe. And that doesn't really change the fact that Energy is solely responsible because it is the cause, it is the responsible agent for everything. Nothing else.

OkaiCorne:
Bro...kindly check the flow of our discussion. You earlier said that ideology gives birth to religion...and I said Science is an ideology but not a religion. It was your conclusion on ideology automatically birthing religion I countered...not that I accused you of stating that Science is a religion.

I said and I quote, when you create an ideology, you create you create a religion. I assumed you would understand I was saying when a person standing as a figure creates an ideology then a religion is born. There's no religion without a central figure. Science does not have any creator not a central figure. I hope you got that?

OkaiCorne:
The Eternal Creator has allegiance to no religion..."God" was created by religion. And this partly explains why I said I have moved on from religion. As for thinking whether it is unwise to seek truths from the holy books...I would advise that you should not throw out the baby alongside with the bathing water. There are elements of Truth in the religious books whether you believe them or not...will still work as undeniable principles e.g it's like telling me what is written in Proverbs or Ecclesiastes are outright lies.

Exactly, that's a pure fact. The nonexistent God was a created fiction by people who saw the need for a religion. And from that indoctrination have you decided to create an eternal creator also. Need I say more? You've said it all bro, just in your first statement.

There are elements of truth in something you have consciously moved on from? . I'll just laugh it off. How does this scenario compare to baby and water? Well, for you it may make a lot of sense but to me, Nah.
What exactly is written in Proverbs that has the autonomy of being the truth? Those are just words of wisdom, nothing different from what is written in the Buddha scripts, or the words of wisdom written in the Koran or the one I can decide to write tomorrow? And of course, there are outright lies in Proverbs, "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." How does fear give anybody wisdom? Funny though.

OkaiCorne:
I was not the mai-guard at the Garden of Eden...so I have no comments on this one

The more reason you should not conclude he did not have a religion of some sort.

OkaiCorne:
I am not too bothered with this seed of doubt...as long the fruits I bear makes the world a better place. Always bear in mind that Satan (the term religious people can relate with) is always out for destruction as his final goal... if whatever fruit I bear is the direct opposite of destruction and death...then that means I am definitely not dealing with Satan. For example...when I die, would I be remembered as Mandela or a Hitler?

You don't relate with the term Satan? What's the term you relate with for that character?
The other comment is not really of meaning.



Okay boss.[/quote]

OkaiCorne:
Good morning bro,

I am being honest with you. I answered you in that manner because that was the order I got my answers to the questions you asked.

Now that I have answered your questions, can I ask you my questions since we are rubbing minds here?

The Eternal Creator owes no allegiance to any bloody religion, so why do I have to belong to a religion to commune with the Eternal Creator

I wonder if Adam had a religion before communicating with the Eternal Creator (assuming the Biblical story of creation is true)

Based on point number 4 you raised, I have moved on from religion to seek the Truth...but that does not mean religion e.g. Christianity with their Bible as their Holy Book is a TOTAL LIE

I seek out the elements of TRUTH in the Holy books and run with them e.g. Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Teachings of Jesus e.t.c
Same goes for elements of TRUTH in other manuscripts like the Unknown years of Jesus.

Based on point number 2 you raised...that I am communing (synchronizing) with the Eternal Creator does not mean I would know everything at once in a single day. With time, I get to learn new things. Rome was not built in a day bros.

I have noticed that the average person focuses more on controversies...rather than the TRUTH.

I am not forcing my beliefs on anyone, but I'd rather be judged on the Fruits I bear rather than the words I speak.

To counter your last point...Science is an ideology...but not a religion.

Cheers.

What are you countering in my last post? I never said science was a religion. did I?

The eternal creator you're talking about is definitely not God. We all know that the God created in religions owe allegiance to ways of worship(religion). So I don't think it will be wise to seek truths from the holy books as you have reiterated.

Adam didn't need to have a religion, the story was created by unintelligent people. They didn't actually say much about Adam and Eve. They were just interested in blaming the fictional Satan to make another fictional character look good. Or you think all there was about the fictional Adam was just what was written? A man who was said to live for 500+ years? Excuse me.

How can you commune with something you cannot even ascertain its form? For all I know, you might be communing with Satan(if it exists) and be thinking you are communing with the eternal creator. Something you don't fully know(according to your own claims) can come in another form to deceive you. So I take it you don't know for sure who it is you're communing with.

You can ask your questions, I'll be willing to answer them.

OkaiCorne:
Let me answer your questions in no particular order (this feels like an Oprah Winfrey Session )

6) Intelligence and Consciousness are intangible items that cannot be seen with the ordinary eyes. The evidence of Intelligence and consciousness is the output (result) of the efforts (energy) you put into a cause.

4) I will not decide for the Eternal Creator if there is a punishment for worshiping or not worshiping Him. You are better of tapping into (depending on) something greater than your limited capacity as a Human Being to achieve extra-ordinary results.

5) I prefer to use the word EVALUATE rather than Judge...but in the context of the question asked. YES.

3) The Holy books states that we are Created in His Image. I can only conclude on this when I reach a more advanced stage on my journey. I want to see things for myself to also confirm or critique what is in the "Holy Books". I DO NOT HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS RIGHT NOW. I only know in parts

1) I see (my view and opinion...not necessarily the general consensus) the Eternal Creator as more of a Father...than a "God" or Supreme Being. That notwithstanding there is no limit to what the Eternal Creator can do.

2) The Eternal Creator is not a racist...we all have our source in Him.

In conclusion...going by your opening statement...religion and lifestyle are two different things...you can counter this by helping me to identify the religion Buhdda, Moses and Jesus practised in their lifetime... It was the followers who made a religion of out their lifestyles which is somewhat different from what the founders had in mind... it's more of Lifestyle and Mentality...and not a dead religion.


I HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND WHERE I'M COMING FROM...SINCE YOU WERE A CHRISTIAN AS WELL

I like that you scattered the answer, you saw that I structured the questions very well to trap you and used trickery to scatter my plans. Weldone.


1) I agree that intelligence and consciousness cannot be seen with the eyes because they are not attributes and not physical matter. But we are not talking about seeing intelligence or consciousness, we are talking about seeing the being that possesses these attributes. As far as we are concerned, intelligence and consciousness are measurable quantities that can be measured, questioned and weighed. So, I'll ask the questions again, If the energy part can be seen, then what makes the rest invisible?

2) I am actually not asking you to decide for the eternal creator, I am asking you if the eternal creator will punish those who have failed to worship 'it.' You would know this detail if at all your claims of tapping into the eternal creator are true. You said you have synchronized with it and depend on it. Except and if you don't know him up to the extent of knowing what he intends to do, his plans for humanity and the ending days of our race. Even we who don't depend on any creator we also achieve extraordinary feats.

3) If this eternal creator will judge people, I must say that's a discouraging attribute of the religious God. And since you have decided to exempt this creator from any religion. I guess you have not done a good job. But what exactly is this creator going to judge people for?

4) Which of the holy books? If I am correct, you have detached yourself from religions, so you cannot make reference to religious books. It would mean you are giving points from what you don't subscribe to. If you don't subscribe to a God, that we were made in the image of God is out of place as a point when you're talking about the eternal creator.

However, if you do not know fully about this your eternal creator, you can as well be wrong about his existence. Since you know in parts, you could also be wrong or right. There's no assurance that you are right, neither is there that you're wrong. You are just acting on a set of beliefs.

5) What you see the eternal creator as for the sake of this discussion does not affect the picture you are painting. If notwithstanding the eternal creator does not have limits, then he is a supreme being according to you. And that also fits the description of a God.

6)Nothing to say.

Religion is born out of lifestyle(culture). That's why we have tons of it. There are millions of cultures around the world and each has its own religion. You cannot separate religion and lifestyle. They are both a way of doing certain things. Jesus actually was a Judaist, a religion of which Moses was a proponent. Buddha was also the proponent of Buddism. When you create an ideology, you create a religion. If these people didn't gather people around and create an ideology, nobody will form a religion in their names. So I don't agree that Moses, Jesus, or Buddha didn't have a religion, it would just be wise to say they laid the foundations for the religious builders. They are part of it.They all taught something different from the existing ideologies which gave rooms for other ideologies.

OkaiCorne:
I ain't dodging bros

1) I take this Eternal Creator as "God" if you understand it on that level...but I am not comfortable addressing the Eternal Creator as God.
2) I know He exists ... the way the explored Universe is structured attests to this.
3) The Eternal Creator is Omniscient (Everywhere at once). We are fragments (seeds) of the Eternal Creator
4) Whether I worship or do not worship the Eternal Creator...it changes nothing. The Eternal Creator does not need my worship to survive. Before I existed on Earth he has been there...when I die He will still be there. It is to my own advantage that I depend on Him and not the other way around
5) The Eternal Creator has given myself and everyone else an assignment to fulfill in this realm of existence. It is only natural for myself to be evaluated on how well I have fared on my assignment. The way you asked this question reeks of religious stench
6) I cannot see Him with the naked eye (perhaps the Energy aspect of Him can be seen)...hence I cannot tell His form.


THIS IS MY HONEST ANSWER AND I HOPE I DON'T GET INSULTED FOR THIS.
Cheers.

I hope to point it out to you that if you have a spiritual way of life that has a figure that you depend on, then you have a religion.
And let me quickly point another thing out, the universe is unstable, it is not structured. You have probably mistaken the disorderliness for order. There are great disorders I have mentioned over time. You are using something called the anthropic coincidences.

Back to your answers.

1)The definition of God is a supreme being. If you only see the eternal creator as a supreme being for my own understanding, how else do you REALLY see the eternal creator?
2)How is the world structured? Do you mind explaining?
3)Everywhere every time? If we are fragments of him, does it mean we look like him? And please which race exactly are fragments of this creator because we have distinct types of humans?
4)So you mean this eternal creator does not care if it is being worshipped or not, and there is no punishment for not worshipping him? Is it a choice?
5) This is very confusing, do you mean the eternal creator will judge people? Please answer yes or no.
6) You cannot see him with your naked_ eyes means you don't know which is contrary to your answer in (2) above. You just concluded probably because you encountered wonders you cannot explain. If the energy part can be seen, then what makes the rest invisible?

We've gone past the insulting stage.

OkaiCorne:
Bro...it appears you're asking me these questions with the mentality that I need to see a Sky Daddy in the clouds

If you don't see me as being cunning, you can see my answers from the viewpoint of Energy;

The Eternal Creator has no gender...just as the Human Soul has no gender. Male and Female organs are necessary configurations to serve as open doors for other souls to gain access to this realm of existence.

Can I see Him Physically? Does It have a form? - (Another entry point for Intuition vs Logic)

Your Last question is another case for Intuition vs Logic.

Your viewpoint of the Creator which is Energy does not have a gender.
My viewpoint of the Creator which is Intellect+Consciousness+Energy does not have a gender.

The way the single celled organism to how the Earth is structured to how the Universe is structured (the part we have explored so far) tells me that only random energy alone cannot be responsible...there has to be some degree of intellect and consciousness involved in the process as well.

I hope we are getting somewhere on this..

The only place we can get to is you telling me about your eternal creator which you're trying to dodge once again.

I said let's quit talking about energy, forget the comparison between energy and eternal creator. Let's focus on eternal creator alone.

Whether you believe in a sky daddy is not the bone of contention, the fact is that you believe in a self aware creator who knows himself as the creator, right? So in light of this your belief, let's start from the top again.

- This your eternal creator, do you take it as God?
- Would you say you believe he exists or you know he exists? Ignore logic vs intuition, just explain your answer.
- Does this eternal creator have where it abides?
- Is this your eternal creator seeking worship or any form of dependence?
- will your eternal creator judge people someday?
- Can you see him physically and does he have form? Ignore logic vs intuition once more. Just answer the question.

More to still follow

Your answers will actually prove if you believe in a sky daddy or otherwise. Please don't dodge the 6 questions.

OkaiCorne:
Like I said before, our lower level as Humans is not the best standard to determine what is perfect or imperfect in the presence of an Eternal Creator.

There's a limit to what we can know before concluding on certain issues.

That notwithstanding, despite our different views on what the Creator is... I have nothing against you...

Religious people... freethinkers, atheists and every other human needs to put their head and hands together to make this world a better place.

I don't see the point in hoping for Heaven or being obsessed with a hell for "sinners" when the world we live in is in shambles.

But you are wrong, we are directly affected. Tornadoes kill humans and not your creator. So to us no matter how perfect it seems to your creator, it is imperfect.

There's no limit to what we can know, I think we addressed this issue sometimes ago. That is why we keep knowing more every day, we don't have limits. We are not going to stop knowing. Because we don't know some things today does not know we can't know it tomorrow.
If you claim the rest of us are limited in know these claimed perfect imperfections, how did you now know? Your dependence on your creator has singled you out? Please spare me, abeg.

Let's even forget about energy for once I want to tap into your thoughts, tell me about this your eternal creator...

- Does it have a form?
- You said it had no gender, how did you know that?
- Can you see him physically?
- Well, you may not be able to see him physically because you have dismissed our 5 sense can comprehend him, how do you find excluding the 5 senses?

More to follow when these are answered.

OkaiCorne:
I have no qualms on Energy powering existence.

But Energy powering existence is different from Energy creating existence.

Without Consciousness and Intellect... energy can be useless and destructive.

Exactly, Energy can be useless and destructive. Usable Energy is never useless but can be destructive and yes it is destructive and also constructive. Bermuda triangle, Volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, tsunamis etc etc etc are the destructive signs of energy.

There is no creator anywhere bro. I would say energy is the creator as usual, but I don't want to see it as one because there is none.


An intelligent Creator would not create the bolded above if truly he/it is intelligent, otherwise, it is not intelligent, Hence energy surfaces again.

OkaiCorne:
I thought Bolaji21 apologized na... this was the Dragon I didn't want him to unleash and you still unleashed it

He apologized my foot. Can you imagine his assertions? Very annoying.

He even asked me to go and read about evolution

One thing I hate most in my life is when someone assumes what other people are. He has the rights to be silly though.

He said mainstream science does not agree with evolution, something that is the centre of focus in mainstream science.

OkaiCorne:
Energy (alone) being the Creator is also your Opinion and not THE FACT...

I am still yet to see one basic example of Raw energy being responsible for Conscious and Intelligent life...

Energy powering existence is not an opinion. It is a hard fact. You have to tell me something you can do without energy.

And you have to tell me if the world is a perfect design.

OkaiCorne:
On the nkwobi and drinks...I'm currently in Lasgidi unfortunately ...maybe some other time.

As for the Creator...The Creator can choose to manifest Himself (does not have a Gender per se...just like how you cannot give energy a gender) in the physical realm of existence whenever He pleases..and in whatever form he desires.

Let us use energy as an example...you do not have to see energy in the physical realm before you know it exists...yet energy can choose to manifest itself in the form of lightening...

The Eternal Creator can get in touch with your senses if you are really open to communicating with Him.
Dreams? Thoughts? Trances and Visions? They involve your sense or don't they? The Eternal Creator could equally use people to pass His message across to you...if you really want to hear Him


Once more...the Eternal Creator is not a Sky Daddy. Thanks and Cheers

Only that energy showed itself before we started knowing it exists and it is measurable. Is your creator measurable empirically? You are wrong in the fact that we don't have to see energy before we know it exists. We have to sense it with our 5 senses. Energy exists only in the physical realm, there's no other realm as far as science is concerned.

The creator has not for once manifested in this world, whether he pleases or not. Or have you seen him? Did you take a photo?
Dreams, thoughts, trances and visions don't involve the senses, they involve the mind. You cannot see your dreams, not smell your thoughts, neither can you hear your trances not eat your visions. You are going anti-science again.

Just tell me already if you are anti-science or not.

OkaiCorne:
Even if the Evolution school of thought holds water...I am still of the opinion that something cannot evolve without a "programming" in the background. And a program cannot happen without a Creator involved. Hence, the existence of an Eternal Creator.

On a side note...kindly pass across your message without jabs ...lest you unleash the dragon

It is just an opinion. Opinions are not facts.

And if at all there must be a background, then it's energy.

A perfect creator cannot create an imperfect world, hence energy is the creator

Bolaji21:
Even those that argue correctly using logic, they're wise enough not to reason the way you do. Cos you've been drawing strawman since. Science has not proven that God doesn't exist. In fact, most of scientific discoveries point to a creator. For example, science admits that the universal is expanding. If it is, that means there's a time in the distant past that the universe didn't exist, then started to exist. This can only be resolved in one of 2 ways: that the universe created itself or that something/somebody created the universe. The first is silly and the second is more credible based on available facts.

The evolution you're referring to, I'm sure you're not a science student. Science just happens to be the only excuse atheists can use to defend their unbelief. Cos a science student will know that mainstream science is not in agreement with evolution.
Instead of arguing blindly here using info you gathered from the Internet, why don't you sit yourself down and read up on evolution. See how it started, why it started and it's acceptance in the world of science till today.

You don't have to keep arguing blindly, and I'm not interested.

I just wasted my time with an illiterate. Science point to a creator? If I talk na it will be as if I am insulting but it's the truth. You're simply stupid. You think science is a religion? You think science will conclude that a spirit created everything?

I should really leave you with your wahala and ignorance and continue with open-minded people who are ready to learn.

Lol, this Idiot even said he is sure I am not a science student. Lol, what are you? A retarded_ frog?

I am not a science student actually, I am science myself. Satisfied?

And which of the science does not agree with evolution? Oh, you think evolution is about monkeys changing to humans?

Let me put it clearly, Science students know that mainstream idiots_ like you are not in agreement with evolution.

For your info, like I said, I am science, I have studied it all my life, I am still studying it, and I will until I die. Now, if that does not make you happy, you can take a stroll to the middle of an express road and be screaming Halleluyah there.

If you need lectures on evolution, you can apply.

You are sure of what you don't know, so much ignorance.

Bolaji21:
It is not unexpected that you'll resort to insults. You claim to have empirically verified oxygen to exist. That's obviously false cos you didn't. You only belive what scientists told you. Your non-belief in God is sponsored by your belief in what scientists said.
You're confused and it's obvious. And you're not ready to be helped. So as I said earlier, no need to continue.

You sat where you are and typed that I haven't done what I have done countless times. Tell me why I should be surprised. No wonder you believe in a God you have not seen exists in the clouds. .

Obviously false my ass in the lab, I have spent more time on science than you have spent in church all your life. Is it because we are exchanging posts on Nairaland?

Lol, he said I am confused, you are the one who said God killed innocents because of the sins of their leaders. It seems you and your God are both confused. I wonder who we should help first, you or God?

OkaiCorne:
If you walk into a room with a beautiful art-work there, if you cannot see or perceive the Artist by your 5 senses, does it mean the Artist does not exist?

There are other ways you can reach out to the Artist you cannot see e.g. through a phone call. Reliance on the 5 senses and logic alone is a limitation of scope.

You can wait patiently till the growing body of Science discovers certain things that would change your current stance...

Cheers.

You know how to pick unrelated analogies, lol. but I will crush it as usual.

If the universe is the art and the creator is the artist, then what is the dark room? And if I walk into the room, does it mean I am equal in being to the artist or is the artist superior?

If the artist is a physical being, of course, I can call him/her. But in this case, your assumed creator is not physical or is it? How can you detect something that is not physical? Are there even empirical facts that there is another realm of existence other than hallucinations?

Even calling the artist would have involved my five senses. Or you can make a phone call without using your 5 senses?

On the nkwobi and drinks, it depends on where you are, I am currently in Zaria.

Bolaji21:
As earlier said, I'm not interested in your ranting. If you hate God, it's your choice (a bad one though). My life is better because I have a hope in the afterlife. You don't, because you don't even believe in the afterlife. But your belief or non-belief of a fact doesn't disprove the fact.
Amd please, stop confusing yourself. The Bible is about the God you believe doesn't exist. I'm not sure you know what you're doing.
1. Is it that you don't believe God exists?
2. or you believe God is a tyrant?
Which one? Because it can't be both. Your arguments since have been dwindling between the 2, which is why it's a waste of time.
If you don't believe God exists, then theres no reason to argue that he's a tyrant.
If you believe God is a tyrant, then you belive he exists.

Finally, you're not good at logic, give up already. You don't need to mention me until you've decided which side you're on (1 or 2).

You're not interested in my ranting then why did you contribute? Were you forced or paid? I'm surprised, but then I'm not surprised again because you are Christian, very confused. So your life is better because you have hope in the after-life? Lol, I really can't hold my laughter right now. If there is going to be an after-life, logically there must be a before-life. Can you please tell me where you were before you were born? Think well before you answer.

I don't need to have hopes in what doesn't exist, there's no after-life, it's an illusion.

Let me tell you something about facts, you have to know them, you don't believe facts. You have only believed that there is God, you don't know for sure. If you know for sure, then you should be able to show us this God, but you can't because all you have is a faith. Do you know the definition of faith?

But me I know that God does not exist. How? It's by simple logic. I HAVE EXPLAINED IT BELOW.

Let me give you an example maybe it will make you understand. One fact in life is that we breathe in oxygen to stay alive. I don't believe it, I know it. But how? Because I have empirically carried out the tests, oxygen can be measured, it is a physical property, take it away then there will not life, bring it back then there is life.

But what makes God not to be a fact is this. God said, call unto me in the time of troubles, I will answer you. Do you know the number of people who have died in tragedies? They called God and he did not answer because he is not there. Another one is this, God said he is not wicked, but I have been able to prove to yo the act of wickedness of God by killing innocent people. Everything about God is actually the opposite of what they said he is. That means everything is a lie.


Lol, I can see that you are really getting confused now. Your logical reasoning is very weak.

Now, everything about God was written by man. All I am trying to let you see are the inconsistencies in the storybook called bible you have been reading all your life. In the Bible, they said God is merciful, but the actions of the same God shows that he is not merciful.

According to the rule of thumb, if you have +1 and -1 then you have zero. God can't be merciful and wicked at the same time, and that logic brings us to the conclusion that the existence of a being that is wicked and merciful is zero. So God does not exist. Simple Logic.

It's really baffling that you find that simple logic confusing.

Bolaji21:
You don't believe spirits exist. So, there's no point furthering our discussion. 99% of the world believe in the spirit realm and the supernatural. So, if you believe the entire world is wrong and you're right, it's your choice.
And please, stop calling yourself a free-thinker, you know you're not. You're a fellow that decides to disagree with available facts and hope to convince others to do same.

In the science world, you just don't discredit the existence of a thing just because it can't be proved. If you're going to concretely say it doesn't exist, you have to PROVE it doesn't exist.
You can't PROVE (using scientific methods) that God doesn't exist. That's if you're a scientist. However, there are verifiable facts that points to the fact that the spirit realm exists and God (creator, Supreme being) exists. I mentioned one of the above them. Try disproving one of them.

99% of the world? Lol. That's according to your own statistics and research, right? We really should not continue, I agree with you on that.

If your 99% stat is true, then 99% of the world is really stupid. I will prefer to know that spirits exist than to believe. I hope you know the difference between knowing and believing.

You said I disagree with available facts, are you kidding me? What facts have you given me? I am forced to question your understanding. Do you even know what facts are? Have you showed me where God lives, Have you shown me his picture? Have you shown me hard evidence that will tell me there's a God? You don't have facts, you just want me to believe. I can't, I need hard facts.

In the Science world, we say things don't exist if they don't conform with the basic laws of science. God simply does not exist in this world because it does not conform to the basic laws that guide the universe. That has been established.

So many scientific works have proved that God doesn't exist. For one, science said nobody created life, we evolved. If God says he created life and science have proved that life was not created, what does that mean to you? Do I need to spell it out?

You simply don't know the meaning of facts, do you? Before science discovered what makes rain to fall, people were thinking it was God that pours water from heaven. Rain is a fact and people gullibly thought God was responsible for it, but science came and explained it. I guess you're also behaving like a caveman too, because there is a phenomenon that you don't understand, you're attributing it to a supreme being. change your ways, bro. Besides, what did you say you mentioned? Retype it and let me trash it.

OkaiCorne:
I am not postulating aliens created the Universe...they are also products of the Eternal Creator...but let's end this here for the sake of minds that cannot carry this (I'm not referring to you) as this would be the death knell on religions around the world.



You are judging what is perfect from imperfect based on your limited view as a human. If you have a broader view, certain "imperfections" are in place for a purpose...or were created as a result of decisions. The way you see a parade from ground view (limited view) is different from how you see the parade on an aerial view (broader view)



Worship sounds a bit religious to me... It's more of communication and Partnership (dependence and synchronization).

As for the WOW signal, of course it refers to the possibility of a physical extra-terrestial existence on our level of vibration. There are levels of vibration (existence) that are higher or lower than ours (Humanity). We cannot see beings that exist on a higher level of vibration with the ordinary eyes..

Unfortunately, it's fictional to you until the growing body of Science eventually discovers it...

How can Aliens be created by the eternal creator? For what purpose? Well, you have decided to end it there.

I don't understand what you mean by I am judging what is perfect as imperfect. A spade is a spade and not a hoe. Perfect is different from imperfect. Something that is a detriment to our existence cannot be perfect by all standards. If there is a powerful, almighty creator, it is not cool for such a powerful being to use imperfection to achieve perfection because he/it must be able to do all things. Imperfection itself is a limitation. And that's the limitations of Energy.

You communicate and partner what you can't see nor perceive? That's very disturbing to know.


What do you mean by level of vibrations? I hope you do mean this is a scientific term?

If you are not using science, how did you come to the conclusion that there are levels of vibrations? Do you have empirical and testable facts that can be retested to establish your claims?

The WOW signal is not a confirmation of the existence of any life form out there. There are billions of particles in space, the frequency was just discovered as the frequency that can travel a certain light years ahead.

OkaiCorne:
In addition, we need to consider the possibilities of life forms existing without the need for water or oxygen. Broaden the scope.

There was a NASA documentary I watched on how several thousands of Earth-like planets are currently explored. These planets are estimated to live within the Goldilock zones of their Solar systems.

Oxygen is not the only gas that can power life, some bacteria use sulphur for metabolism. The basic thing oxygen does is to burn organic matter. We basically use oxygen for our metabolic processes and it played a role in forming us through evolution. Another thing is the existence of plants, the sun, they all play a role in the use of Oxygen.

So if Aliens exist and they don't use Oxygen and Water, then they will not have sun and plants. To me, until proven true, all those things are fictions. In search of Aliens, we have scouted Mars and other planets. We are still looking for them.

OkaiCorne:
Happy Sunday bro...been a while.

When I say a Creator exists...don't mistake that for a Sky Daddy in the clouds (that's a religious view).

It's just like how you said Energy is the Creator of everything...but my own point of view is Intellect + Consciousness +Energy = Eternal Creator.

This Creator is the source and cause of things seen and unseen to the ordinary eye (e.g. dark matter) in our universe.


Hope you've been doing great though... When are we having our drinks and nkwobi?

Happy Sunday although there's nothing about it.

Are you postulating that Aliens exist?

Yes, it is a possibility but none has yet been seen. The controversies about the existence of Aliens is as old as science but it is yet to be proven.

Nevertheless, if Aliens exist, I doubt they created the universe. Then questions of how the Aliens existed would arise again among billions of questions.

I already said an intelligent creator could not have created this universe or earth, there are so many visible imperfections here. Even those that were not caused or influenced, natural imperfections.

You have severally referred to this your creator as he/it who deserves worship, however, need I remind you that the WOW signal is solely about extraterrestrial bodies which means life outside earth. It doesn't relate in any form to life that cannot be perceived. It refers to another physical civilisation elsewhere other than earth that can receive frequencies and waves. I suppose that does not align with your thoughts.

OkaiCorne:
Hi Akin1212, Trust your day is going on well. Kindly take out time to got through the link below. The link is an article on the biggest mysteries Science is yet to solve.

Look out for the one on WOW signal...lemme know what you think;

https://www.nairaland.com/4178905/world-biggest-mysteries-scientists-still


Cheers.

Yes, aliens may exist.

Extraterrestrial does not mean a creator or anything. For one, it has been established that life may exist elsewhere since water has been found on Mars. Extraterrestrial points to the possibility of finding life outside the earth and its atmosphere. Not that a God exists.

I hope you read the post and understood it because if you take it for a hard evidence that a creator exists then you're totally wrong.

It's been a while.

Bolaji21:
As I've earlier mentioned, we can't continue this debate as you're arguing from a predetermined position and not open. What a superior does affects the subordinates. I gave the example of nigeria. Kindly go back to read it.

Are you arguing from a general perspective? A free mind perspective or a religious one? So, for you and God now, I am liable for the sins of my Grandfather, the sins I know nothing about? I see why God is God, he is really a Good God that cannot differentiate between innocents and sinners. I really believe that your God is a God that will punish people for sins they are innocent of. Your example of Nigeria does not hold water at all, as a matter of fact, Nigeria is like that because God does not exist.
Besides, if the law now chose to punish a Nigerian leader that is corrupt according to your analogy, does the law punish all his families and his tribesmen or only him? God punished the whole Egypt for the sins of Pharaoh, who does that? A tyrant of course.

Bolaji21:
You see, you've had the scripture understood upside down and instead of seeking clarity, you're arguing from that standpoint. That's unwise. Man is above other creation by design (Gen 1:28).When he fell, it affected other creation.

I'm tired of reading useless replies from you. Sorry to say.

Bolaji21:
We don't need to go too far. Christians life a better life than any other human cos they have the life of God. If you don't know, maybe you've not met a christian.

This is really funny I swear. How do you define a better life? No Christian in Nigeria is richer than Dangote. There are millions of Muslims and Atheists who have a better life than YOU. Abeg, talk reasonable matter.

Bolaji21:
I see you've suddenly become the creator that knows that believing in Jesus can't stop earthquakes. You regulate earthquakes, right?

You can give us an instance where believing in Jesus stopped natural disasters, we will be glad to check it out. I don't need to be a creator before I know some things. It is called common sense and logic.

Bolaji21:
Since you don't believe that spirits exists, it'll be difficult to discuss with you.

Exactly, it will be difficult because I don't go about believing things that don't have empirical evidence unlike you. I prefer to know, I don't believe. Believing could be blind, you know?

Bolaji21:
You're reading your thoughts into what I wrote. I stated that part of his (temporal*) punishment was that he was stripped of his honor. His roaming the earth is as a vagabond. In ancient times, people qwerty banished from the land and left to roam the outer lands.

What am I supposed to read into it? Oh, I am not even supposed to think of what you wrote at all, I am just supposed to accept it because you said it, whether it's logical or not, right? Satan's temporal punishment is to roam and be free to terrorize humanity? Does it make sense to you? Is there no other way to punish him than to unleash him on us? You are still bringing people's analogy into the matter as if it will make sense, If I use the same people's analogy to strike back and show you why it doesn't make sense, you'll start giving excuses.

Bolaji21:
You're tying to so hard to twist things and you're not good at it. God brings evil on people as judgement, that doesn't make him an evildoers by definition.

As a matter of fact, you're the one who is twisting things. Your analogies are weak and irrelevant. God should bring judgement on bad people and leave the innocents out of it. When you punish the innocents for what they didn't do, you're simply an evildoer.

Bolaji21:
If your point is to show the the creature is wiser than the creator, it's your choice.

It's your choice not to believe too, there's no wise creator anywhere.

Bolaji21:
the ability to make a choice all by yourself.

Does the choice you make supersede and transcends God's choice? If NO, then nobody has free will.

Bolaji21:
You're so bent on twisting things. If you give someone free will, you've given the ability to make decisions on their own.

Exactly, you've given them the ability to make decisions ONLY on their own and your own decisions will not matter to them anymore. People under the law does not have free will, nobody has a free will in a society. Who is twisting things now, or is it that you don't simply understand the concept?

Bolaji21:
The world is as it is because of decisions made by men. It's god-haters that make a mess of things and blame God for not stopping them before they did it.

my question is this, did God know that people were going to make a mess before he created them? Who created the people making the mess? If God is perfect, he is not supposed to create people who will make a mess. His creations are really not perfect.

Bolaji21:
Who defines what is good and what is sin?

You tell me, if God is the one who makes the decision, then he is not limited to his own laws as you have said earlier because he makes the decisions.

Bolaji21:
You're arguing from your predetermined standpoint. We're not going anywhere with this. He didn't and won't kill Satan because of the decision he made that spirits don't die, even before Satan rebelled. Since you don't believe that spirits or the spirit world exists, it's of no use.

Come off it brother. I am the free thinker here, you're the one who has a predetermined viewpoint(Christian). Yes, we are not going anywhere until you start accepting facts and stop believing without concrete evidence, and stop giving weak analogies that fall back on you.

Spirits don't die my foot. Have you seen one before? What surprises me is that you type confidently about something you know nothing about, who does that? Have you seen any spirit before? What's the influence of spirits in this world. We are really going nowhere if we are going to include ignorance of facts in our discussion.

enshy:
Young Man, if you are sure God doesn't exist, then act it!
You just wasted your vocabulary, data and energy making a worthless point on a pointless issue. What does that say of you?
Hey, don't get bloated, you are just one more ignorant man who lives for nothing more than himself!

I wasted MY data, energy and vocabulary not YOURS. Why do you want to die on my behalf, are you the Jesus of our time?

I know believe God does not exist and that's why I'm acting it by giving no shit_ about him, can't you see that clearly?

This issue is not pointless, it is a very important issue. In fact, it is an issue that can liberate YOU PEOPLE from your stupidity, how dare you say it's pointless?

On the contrary, you're the one feeling ballooned because I just stashed your imaginary friend, don't cry boy, there's nothing you can do about it.

enshy:
You couldn't do better!
To know that you do this of your own volition baffles me.
I conclude then that you must be so obsessed about this Jesus that you speak of him more than some Christians on this forum.
I'm challenged to speak more about Him.
The more darts you throw, the crazier I get for Jesus! You and your cohorts in atheism have majorly become my reason for my new zeal, passion and enthusiasm for God and His Work!
It's therefore obvious that you have become the Christian's tool to further the gospel...No wonder your Father the devil not knowing the plans for redemption in Heaven assisted in raising the Jews against Christ and ensure His death...If your Father was a tool to achieve God's redemptive purpose, I bet your are just one more little tool!
The Church lives and Christ reigns forever! You can't change this forever!!

You are the one who seems lost.

Well, I don't know if the OP has the Devil as his father though, but you shouldn't have been so ignorant to the extent of assuming that atheists have the devil as their imaginary father.

We simply don't subscribe to beliefs that your imaginary sky daddy, God and his gay partner, the Devil exist. We don't give a fuck_ about any of them because they only reign forever in your small skull.

How can the devil help in bringing about what God has planned already? God planned the death of his son or himself, whichever it is, the Devil was not around at that time lol, or was he?

The son or God himself was not aware and he cried why had God forsaken him? Or why the fuck_ was he surprised on the cross? Lol

If atheism is making you zealous, don't you think you are the one who is sick? Continue going crazy for Jesus, I hope he replicates it for you too, lol. After all, you are going to be his bride, aren't you?

Yes, the church and Christ lives on in the mind of fools who are nearing extinction. Or you haven't heard?

Jesus has probably repented and turned from his Gospel ways.

orisa37:
God is not a Confusionist. You are the one lacking in understanding of the ways of God.

Do God's ways include false prophecies and approving giant school fees for covenant university? Or you did not even read the post but felt the urge to defend God?

Bolaji21:
Most times in order to.explain spiritual matters (kingdom of heaven), Jesus had to use the physical matters as that's the closest thing the audience could relate to.
As regards my example, if you paid attention, you'll notice I mentioned that the present fallen state of Satan is punishment on its own. It's just like a suspect been completed to do community service (sweeping the road) till his judgment is given. Satan was honorable before he rebelled. After his rebellion, all that was left was that "he's roaming to and from the earth".

Also remember I said Satan is not the only one that has rebelled. Another group of rebels were recorded here
Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Notice their been held in chains is temporary till the judgment day. Satan's temporary judgment however is that he's stripped of all his honor and left to roam the earth.

Then Jesus must have made a grave mistake because you cannot explain the physical situations with spiritual situations. Because nobody can see spirits. Spirits don't exist. And for the sake of discussion, even if they do they are not in this realm and are not guided by physical or natural laws and we are also not guided by spiritual laws. So that there is a very big mistake.

On the Satan's punishment, how can something being punished roam freely? The logic here is zero. If you are being punished, you don't have freedom. But Satan does. I have told you to stop using physical issues to explain this phenomenon because it will not work. Criminals who do community service don't go on their own freedom, they are escorted by security operatives and are always in chains when doing community service. If you liken this to Satan's case, is Satan in chains or escorted by security operatives? I don't think so.

Bolaji21:
Yes

Thank you, you have ultimately agreed that God created Evil. So God himself is an evildoer.

Bolaji21:
He didn't need to, cos that'll be insecurity. Only humans think that way.

So avoiding evil to you means insecurity?

If humans become insecure by avoiding evil, then I think they are wiser than God.

Bolaji21:
No. He gave them free will, not that he influenced their will

What is free will?

When you give someone free will, you have ultimately influenced their freedom to choose.

Bolaji21:
Answer (1) already stated that he knew.

If God created evil and knew that it would be evil before he created it but didn't change the creation because he didn't want to appear insecure. Are you ascertaining me that God planned this world to be in disarray? Then why is he blaming the evil instead of himself who had all the opportunities to make it better but didn't?

Bolaji21:
What I think can't be accurate. Why? Because God didn't provide explanation as to why he went ahead to create Satan and it is out of scope to ask him (that's questioning his ability to make right decisions). If he decided to create Satan despite knowing that he'll rebel, he has his reason and he's not obliged to tell us.
God is king. He also knew man will fall and that didn't prevent him from creating man. He knew you'll be anti-social at this time, that didn't stop him from creating you.

If what you think cannot be accurate, then why bother?
The Bible said in James 4 vs 17 "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin."

If God commanded this and does not abide by it himself, then he is not just as you have earlier postulated. You have just mixed his inability to kill Satan with justice. But none of them exist, just to be sure.

The idea of not questioning God is a defensive approach to finding the truth and keep revelling in lies. If there is a God, then reasoning and logic should find him. They said we cannot question God because by doing so we cannot get answers. Some of us have been doing so and if God is really just then he should answer us and tell us why.
Do you know that man is carrying the blame for falling and God is exempting himself according to religion? When God knew what will happen, why did he go ahead and create man? He cannot exempt himself.[/quote]

Bolaji21:
All other creatures apart from man will be asking man the same question too. Cos when man fell, the whole creation lost direction. Some became wild animals and started feeding on flesh. Now, if we're to assign blame, it'll go to man because it was man that rebelled. The animals will be asking man the same question.

Now, about suffering: As I said earlier, man rebelled and he (and his descendants) fell under curse. But a remedy has been made available (accepting Jesus). If all men accept Jesus as Lord, the world will be a better place. Some of the sufferings you experience today are as a result of what your great-grandfather did. The sufferings most Nigerians are in today, it's as a result of what past leaders did. Even our current situation, don't we blame it on Buhari, Jonathan etc? Are you affected by the suffering because you were part of their administration? No. But you're a subordinate of theirs, so what they do affects you.

The quoted above is illogical reasoning, don't tell me you believe this trash.

The Lion has always been carnivorous. There was no point in time Lion ate grass.
Why would animals change because man(another animal) fell? For starters, according to religion, the man was created in the image of God. So his falling cannot affect other creations that are completely different from man. If man fell and other animals did not, why do they have to lose directions as man? If that's the way it happened, then what justice is there for the other animals. Did you say God is just again?

Before we go deeper, let us verify how the world can be a better place by accepting Jesus. Let us take a look at those who have accepted him already. On a large scale, their lives are far worse than those who have not accepted Jesus Christ.

Just accepting Jesus Christ will not stop earthquakes from happening, many of his followers died in tsunamis. I know many of his followers who are still suffering. So your claim is invalid.

Bolaji21:
I said God is just, and been just includes the fact that he judges rightly. People usually use this emotionally appeal to try and paint God as unjust. Does been just mean 'not judging' or does it mean 'judging rightly'?
Just as I said in answer (7), what the leaders do have direct implications on the subordinates. 70+ israalites went to Egypt. Some years later, a king arose and made all the israalites (descendants of those 70) slaves and it lasted for ~400 years. I know you won't say that's just. Now, God decided it's time to set the Israelites free and part of the process is that all first born will die, and you'll say it's unjust. Do you know the number of people and generations of Israelites that suffered and died during the ~400 years of servitude?
If God has suddenly went to Egypt without they doing anything wrong, and he slew all first borns, they we can argue that God is unjust.

Of course, being just means judging rightly and that's exactly what makes God unjust.

The family of King Pharaoh according to the Bible were the ones who held the children of Isreal in captivity and not the whole of Egypt. There were also poor people in Egypt who couldn't afford a slave. If God were just why didn't he deal with the criminals alone, why count the innocents among and kill them when they have done nothing?

Or a newly born firstborn too have a slave? Do children also have slaves? Come on bro, exercise your thinking faculties and think for once about these things your God has done. The maximum atrocities of your God.

If the children of Isreal had died as a result of slavery in the 400years of captivity, does a child who knew nothing about that have to die? Think think bro. It's unjust, very unjust to kill someone who did not commit a crime. God is unjust.

If God cannot discern the power of choice of the leaders from the choices of their followers, then that God is not a good God. A God that questions followers on choices made by their leaders? Is that the God you worship and claim he is just?

A lawful God will always ensure he judges the sinners and leaves the innocents out. Your logic crashed again.

This below is also an instance of God's tyrany and anarchy

1 Samuel 15:3New International Version (NIV)

3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

Bolaji21:
What makes you powerful is not just your power, it's your ability to do what you want to do within the limits of the laid down rules.
What makes a winner in a boxing match is not the a boxer hits his opponent with an hammer, that's cowardice. What makes him victorious and accepted powerful is that he punches (the rule set) his opponent till he gives up.

If your idea of been powerful is to keep breaking the law set by you, then that's tyranny and anarchy is in view.

Of course, the imaginary God is a tyrant and an anarchist. He has broken these rules many times.

In Isaiah, God said he created good and evil. And this same God said he is good at all times. Can evil come out of good?
God is a tyrant who wants all his will to come to pass no matter what free will you have. So if God's will; is the ultimate then what is the purpose of our own will?

A boxer did not set boxing rules so he has to abide or else he'll be disqualified, God allegedly set the rules and in this your example you compared him to a boxer. How does that correlate to logic? You really need to stop using real-life issues to explain the unreal God. It won't work out.
If you have a power that only functions within the limits of some rules, then you are powerful, but not all-powerful. Not omnipotent.

Bolaji21:
Sorry, you misunderstood the statement. We cannot question God because we don't know as much as he knows and he's not answerable to us. Not that it makes him a tyrant, but he's king.

However, in scripture, a few men asked Why. An example is job. Job questioned God and claimed he'll sue God to court. God didn't consume him with fire. God agreed to his challenge and to set the ball rolling, he asked him a few questions. Job had no answer to all of the questions (Job 38). Question 1 was "Were you there when I laid the foundations of the earth?". The implication of that question is *you can't question what's happening in the earth now when you weren't there when the earth was been created*. Why? Because a lot of things were put in place and set in motion during the foundation.

As to your last sentence, God is obliged to follow the laws set in motion by him, that's why Jesus didn't drop from heaven as a man, he was born - Because he needs the cooperation of a man (Mary) to access the earth.

I did not misunderstand the statement, you did actually. The statement is plain and simple. You cannot question God doesn't mean I can't. Since he answered Job, he should answer those who are questioning him now also.

Someone who cannot be questioned is a tyrant, whether a king or a warrior.

You saw that your words and your explanations are making your God a tyrant and you quickly want to point it out that what you're saying is not true. I know, I know. Keep deceiving yourself.

Job had no answer to the questions that popped up in his mind as against God speaking to him. And that was because science was absent. God should come down and ask such questions again now and he will be shocked how many answers he'll get. Job was just a farmer who knew nothing about the world, how do you expect him to answer.

If God is limited by his own laws and confined within the rules, then he has limits. These things are simple as ABC and do not require much thinking to figure them out. You have stated the points yourself, So I figured God cannot kill Satan because he is limited by his own rules. Thank you.

There would have been no big deal if Jesus had dropped from Heaven, nobody gave birth to Adam and Eve, so?

Bolaji21:
When we pray for him to change some things, he does what we ask him to do using another law set by him if he's willing to do it. That's why in a sneering prayers sometimes, he asks us to do somethings for our prayers to be answered.

I see that you just want to be dancing around laws. If God uses another law to break one law, then he is a very confused and unjust God.

If he is willing to do it? So God's will is the ultimate, why do you need a will then if it's useless?

Bolaji21:
The witch knows it's boundary. Let me show your a scripture
Psa 105:15 Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm.
Now, an attempt to touch the anointed has consequence, which may be death.the witch is aware of that and Satan the ring leader is aware.
And let me add, he has a right to take life. In fact, he's the only one that has a right to take life cos he's the only one that can give life.

Let me just laugh this one off, it still the same confusion I have addressed up there

Bolaji21:
You can decide to question God, in fact, that's what atheists spend their life doing - questioning in God.
The reason you're not dead now is because he's just. The whole of history (past, present, future) shows that he's just. Only the wicked will not want to admit that. Refer to my answer on Job.

If theists spend their lives not questioning God, it is fair if atheists spend their lives questioning him. We can't all be gullible at the same time.

I am alive not because God is just, but because I am living well and still healthy. Whether God is just or unjust, if I am not healthy I will die.

If I am alive because he is just, I believe those who are dead died because he is unjust.

Your answer on job does not hold water.

Bolaji21:
The essence of creation is so he doesn't have to do everything.
Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
He doesn't wish to do others evil, but he has to judge others when they deserve judgment.

Good, this brings us back to my point made earlier.

If God doesn't wish to do evil, why did he create evil? Afterall, you just claimed he created everything and that includes evil.

Again, if God created all things according to the scripture you quoted, then what do you mean by he doesn't have to do everything? Can't you see that you are antagonizing yourself?

Bolaji21:
I don't quite understand the question. The decides what he wants to do, and he can't be compiled to do otherwise, except he DECIDES to do otherwise.

You have gone contrary to your statements many times and this is another instance. If God can DECIDE to do otherwise anytime he wants, then there is no way he can act according to rules laid by him. You cannot be able to kill and still be unable to kill according to rules.

Bolaji21:
It means he'll do what he says he will do. It means he can be trusted by his word.
Satan is not like that. Ask those that have had experience with him.

God, however, doesn't do what he says he will do. I don't know about Satan because he does not have a book that describes him.

He said if you worship him he will not allow evil befall you. Job worshipped him and he still let evil befall Job. You cannot deny that fact.

Bolaji21:
Let me put it this way. You're a man I assume. If someone says "You're a woman", that'll be a lie, right?
But if God says, you're a woman, it won't be a lie.
Let me give you a scriptural example. Judges 6:11-40.
Gideon was a weak man scared of their enemies. But an angel said to him "Oh man of valor", "go in thy might". If a man had told Gideon this, it'd have been a lie.
But it was God (through his angel) speaking. Why is it not a lie? Because he knew Gideon better than Gideon knew of himself.

I'm not sure how to explain it, but whatever he says is the reality. If he says you're a woman, then you're a woman, even if you've lived all your life as a man.

Lol, this is funny. So the angel gave words of encouragement to Gideon and no other person can do that?

I am not going to address this because it will be very ignorant of me to do so.
You have simply used encouragement as an instance of God not lying. There are many times people have said to me that I can do what I cannot do, and I rose up and did them, are you satisfied?

OkaiCorne:
Lol...17 questions ain't much?

So when you want to start it would be like 40 questions abi?

It's well...He that seeks, shall find. All the best boss.

If he does not give up, he may be the next OkaiCorne. I won't mind dragging this far too with him and I may ask him more than 40 questions

I have found something already, I just want him to find what I found too.

These questions are part of the one million and one questions I started with back in the days.

Cheers

OkaiCorne:
See Questionnaire sha...

I hope you get the answers you seek though. It is very good to have a questioning and probing mind instead of swallowing things just the way they are. I used to ask all these too...but the truth of the matter is you cannot get all the answers you seek in this realm of existence.

At the end of the day, it still takes a leap of faith (e.g. Pascal's wager) to believe in the existence or absence thereof of an Eternal Creator.

All the best on your journey.

Lol, it's not a journey anymore jor. It's who I am now.

The questions are not much na, I would have asked you if you had tried to answer the way he did, but you brought up eternal creator and dragged it for 2 weeks

I suppose you didn't get all the answers and you decided to be 70% theist and 30% atheist. If it was balanced, I would have said you're agnostic but that's where you're tending to anyway.

Pascal's wager itself is a principle that goes against religion, but then it explains the fear of religious people.

See you in Nirvana