₦airaland Forum

Mosquito bites and may have a chance of flying away if not swatted to pieces. The same is not the case with the fly in the hadith that will not be able to fly away was the "wet" drink that will incapacitate it so much so hat the drinker will be able to dip it in in order to get the antidote [the cure]. lets apply our mind, shall we?

I was using the Mosquito as an example. I agree that Mohammed didn't mention mosquitoes,

it says dip it in your drink. when you dip it in your drink, it probably dies or you kill it after taking it out, so that there is no chance to test your hypothesis of mosquitoes biting second person to see if you only escape its diseases. Lets use our mind, i said.

You are not making any sense here my friend. The claim is simple - the fly carries the cure in one wing for whatever disease it carries in another wing - YOU ARE YET TO PROVE THIS BECAUSE MEDICALLY AND SCIENTIFICALLY, IT IS NOT TRUE

my bold answer to your weak challenge is this; when you think a person is died in an accident and he did not die, Allah has cured him of death by extending his life, like the man who missed a plane that crashed: you say he cheated death if you know he didn't take the plane or if you thought he took it and you took him for dead until he shows up, telling you he was on the plane. but know a lot of people have survived plane crash, including completely babies while strong men died. if a man cheated disease, was it not a cure as the man who didn't die was cured of death, resurrected before he died? while you can not prove that the fly didn't carry the disease, if it was your assumption, it falls on speculation while the mere fact the person who dipped it in did not get sick is evidence of cure, until you can provide that the fly didn't carry the cure, the material emphasized while you doubt it without being ever to prove it wrong.

What has a plane crash got to do with Mohammed statement about a fly curing a disease? I will ask you again - does a fly carry the cure to typhoid fever in one of it's wings? A simple yes or no would suffice

Sahih Muslim
by Imam Muslim, translation by Abdul Hamid Siddiqui , Volume: The Book of Drinks (Kitab Al-Ashriba)
Chapter: A BELIEVER EATS IN ONE INTESTINE WHEREAS A NON-BELIEVER EATS IN SEVEN INTESTINES
5120.
Abu Huraira reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) invited a non-Muslim. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) commanded that a goat be milked for him. It was milked and he drank its milk. Then the second one was milked and he drank its milk, and then the other one was milked and he drank its milk. till he drank the milk of seven goats. On the next morning he embraced Islam. And Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) commanded that a goat should be milked for him and he drank its milk and then another was milked but he did not finish it, whereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: A believer drinks In one intestine whereas a non-believer drinks in seven intestines.

So, because he drank the milk seven times means he has 7 intestines? 7th century Arabians were ignorant and had no way or telling whether the claim Mohammed made was correct or not - we do!. So, what if the man had drank the milk 4 times - he would have 4 intestines? Or what if he drank 20 times? He would have 20 intestines? Again, the scientific claim is INCORRECT and NOT TRUE. You are trying to defend a statement that makes no medical sense mate. Mohammed was trying to describe someone that eats a lot or rather drinks milk a lot. But he made a bold claim and said the man has 7 intestines. What human being in this world has 7 intestines?

Again, I am waiting for your honest answer.

Mee234: @alex you are having a field day because tbaba has not shown you the real meaning of all these things in classic Arabic. He once shew how misinterpretation by some who claim that Quran said that mountain prevent earthquake even when all the English translation of that statement use the world qauke.

I know a little Arabic, indulge me

vedaxcool: This attacks are quite saddening and the handiwork of vile and evil people, may Allah destroy those who slay the innocent! Amin.

I salute you for an unbiased and honest stand. 5 Gbosa to vexacool - gbosa gbosa gbosa gbosa gbosa

Austine.E:
....muslims can be funny atimes,while ops tries had to show the barbaric and inhuman killing of Shia muslims by fellow muslims(sunnis),i had thought the least other muslims wld do is to sympathize with the situatn for humanity sake and discuss a way out.Reaching out through their various sects,meet-ups group and pass the message of tolerance but rather the reverse is the case,his voice is about being suppressed!my bible tells me that we are equals in the sight of God,the death of anybody,be it muslim,christain,atheists,jews etc depletes humanity and saddens our heart!pls 'sunnis' share the message of love and tolerance! Muslims often shout about the oppression of muslims be it in Gaza and occupied lands but keeps mute in terms of internal tyrany and terrorism,with reference to Iran,Iraq,Afgan,Pakistan,syria etc!

Well said

Metallurgist: One man terrorist is anoda man's freedom fighter, alqeada fight the united state that makes killing muslims in our lands like sport, logicaly the enemy of my enemy is my friend, its the after effect and barbarity of america war to control muslims resources and lies especially that of iraq on how saddam soppose weapons of mass destruction, the daily killing of muslims in pakistan, the cases of black water( a millitary contractors) bought to iraq to fight as U.S soldiers that make alqeada appalling to who eva despise tyrany and oppression not just muslims

Did America attack Saudi Arabia? Osama formed Al-Qeada, why did he attack America? When Iraq invaded Kuwait, why didn't Osama and his mujehadeens go to liberate the Kuwaitis?

vedaxcool: victory will come the way of the believers, these atheists ruling china cannot shove atheism down people's throat, every evil system eventually drowns in its own flit.

I wish you could preach the same in Saudi Arabia and to Boko Haram

tosin2013: And just because he's an ex member of one islamic group hamas, dat makes him an authority? All dese are just pure propaganda. No facts or evidence. Confirm from google dat " Muhammad" is now among d top three most common newborn names in d UK.
They av said predicted dis b4 in 40s, 60s and 90s yet islam is still d worlds fastest growing religion! @OP I hope u ll rem this in 2023! When Islam will be officially d worlds no 1 religion.

Do the math again - muslims are slaughtering themselves in Syria and Iraq

blenble: convince us by posting the correct hadith now.

Ask him again oh!

lanrexlan: The place alexis highlighted is not in the hadith,he decided to add his own words.
Having a picture of Allah in one's mind isn't allowed in islam.It's shirk,for example If I had a picture of Allah with three heads(nausoubillah) and another person had a picture of Allah with 2heads(nausoubillah),how will Allah appear to us in a shape that we had in our mind? Different shapes? That means alexis is lieing,that part he highlighted isn't in the hadith.
Learn about Islam with an open heart.....Peace

So, I am lying on the Hadith now? Do you want an online reference? The lengths some muslims will go to play pretend

maclatunji: ^Very simple, you are not allowed to form a image in your mind and say: "this is Allah". The hadith clearly states that seeing Allah on the day of resurrection will not be like what anybody can imagine even if they did. It is Christian dogma to form a picture and say: "Yup! This is how God looks".

This article addresses the point http://www.al-islam.org/allah/names/natureallah.htm

You quoted the hadith that speaks of the future- Day of Judgement. It is by no means an approval to start imagining and having "images" of Allah in your hearts on earth. On the day of Judgement, a lot of the rules will change. It is easy to quote Islamic literature. Understanding what you are quoting is a different matter.

See how you are shooting yourself in the foot. Whether in past of future tense, the Hadith makes it clear that at a muslim will have an image of who Allah is. That is, a muslim represents God in his mine as something, someone, whatever it is.

You are here trying cheaply to disown your own Holy Book

Why not explain to us the claim Mohammed made when he said Adam was 90 feet tall before you talk about the two seas

@alexis; you seem to be a person who takes things and understand them literally. right? if this is so, could you discount that it is literally logical for anyone to arrive at calling the man who overshadowed and came upon a woman that bore a son you call the son of the woman her husband? is it not also literally logical to arrive at saying the 1 hung is also the ones not seen if the one hung is one and the same the invisible ones? if you can say Jesus is literally son of God or Mary is literally the spouse of God though Mary is the literally mother of Jesus her son and you can say Jehovah was hung when you say Jesus was literally hung, we need to understand what Prophet Muhammad [sa] meant by 1 intestine and intestines.

We could debate this but it's not the topic at hand. Leave the bible out of the picture for now and let us focus on the "scientific" claims that Mohammed made

Even though I was reading this hadith for the very first time from you, i easily could give you an explanation based on the 7 in islam and the fact that all humans, in normal circumstances have the same internal organs. but i did want come up with my own explanation so i goggle the hadith and here is what i found and it is not so different from my guess from the moment i read what you think was a slam dunk.

7 is very many or too much. a person who becomes a glutton in food can be said to have 7 intestines

.

So, you are using Google to explain the Hadith? I would expect you to consult your imam to get some perspective on this. Again, when Mohammed made this claim, people couldn't verify that is why it made sense to them. However, we can verify and we know that the number 7 is not the same as the number one. Mohammed said a muslim has 1 intestine. So this means either by research, prophecy or opening the stomach of a muslim and counting his intestine were the only methods he could verify his claim. The same goes for the non-muslim intestine. The question is - what was his source, how did he know that non-muslims have 7 intestine? We all have small and large intestines.

However, WE KNOW THAT IS UNTRUE AND NOT CORRECT. NO HUMAN BEING HAS 7 INTESTINES.

below is a good read about 7 Intestines [glutton quality]
www.onislam.net/english/ask-the-scholar/morals-and.../169721.html

You expect me to give credence to this argument from a muslim source? .

. . . .The scholars say that one should not take the number seven literally; it is used in Arabic to indicate large number or quantity. “Eating in seven intestines” is a metaphorical way of saying “eating too much or being too greedy.”

Some scholars say that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was not speaking generally but he was referring to a particular person who came to visit him. This person was offered a glass of milk to drink, and he drank. His host poured some more milk in his glass and he drank that. Then some more was given and he drank that, too. This continued until this person drank seven glasses of milk. Next day he came again to the Prophet and the Prophet spoke to him about the message of Islam. The visitor accepted Islam. The Prophet again offered him the milk, but this time he took only one serving and that was sufficient for him. The Prophet then remarked that when he was a non-believer he drank seven times more than what he drank after his accepting Islam. So in this sense, some scholars say that this was not a general remark about every non-believer and believer. This remark was made about a particular person only. (See Tuhfatul Ahwazi Sharh At-Tirmidhi)" . . .

You should have quoted the Hadith you are referring to for reference and clarification. Unfortunately for you - that wasn't the Hadith I was referring to. In the Hadith I am about to mention - Mohammed suggested that non muslims are greedy because a non muslim visited him and ate too much, hence the reason he said the man has 7 intestines. The question is, how did he know he has 7 intestines?

Bukhari 65, 305-309:

305 === Narrated Nafi': Ibn 'Umar never used to take his meal unless a poor man was called to eat with him. One day I brought a poor man to eat with him, the man ate too much, whereupon Ibn 'Umar said, "O Nafi'! Don't let this man enter my house, for I heard the Prophet saying, "A believer eats in one intestine (is satisfied with a little food), and a kafir (unbeliever) eats in seven intestines (eats much food)."

306 === Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said, "A believer eats in one intestine (is satisfied with a little food), and a kafir (unbeliever) or a hypocrite eats in seven intestines (eats too much)."

307 === Narrated 'Amr: Abu Nahik was avaricious eater. Ibn 'Umar said to him, "Allah's Apostle said, "A Kafir (unbeliever) eats in seven intestines (eats much)." On that Abu Nahik said, "But I believe in Allah and His Apostle ."


As you can see from the Hadith, Mohammed meant the non-muslim was a greedy man and ate too much. As a result, he thought the man had more intestine. . If you deny that, then I won't debate with you again on this matter

and back to the fly, I called many nigerians i know and including those in europe and in abuja nigeria. i can give you their response on skype if it makes you happy, without names; all agreed that people just take it out and down their drink. Your problem is that you will say because they didnt get sick, the fly does not carry the diseases. Well, you dont know that for sure since you didnt test the fly and you did not receive any revelation about it from God. if a person falls sick it is not necessary that it is because the fly entered their drink. It may be because of other reason.

You don't have to give me their response. I am not going by their response. I am going by what the Hadith said. I have said it many times but you are deliberating ignoring my response. I gave you a simple example, if a mosquito bites you and you don't get Malaria and it bites someone else and they get malaria - what does that mean?.

You prophet claim was that: if the fly had a disease in one wing, it has the cure for the same disease in another. We know that is not true. First, you tried to be smart and said he was encouraging prevention and prevention = cure. That back-fired on you and now you are saying another thing. The question is simple, if a fly spreads typhoid fever, does the fly have the cure to typhoid fever?

if you are to disprove the hadith, you have to provide data with 100% accuracy that all those who consume their drink after they dipped the fly the found in it got sick of what the fly carried. you know how impossible your task is? not all scientists on earth can disprove this one and you are going about as if you got something. and in all your argument, you have not provided a single verifiable evidence that a man got sick after he followed the hadith to the letter, including trusting God by saying the Bismilla.

I am not to disprove the Hadith mate - the hadith is to prove itself. Mohammed is to prove his claim. I didn't write the Hadith, his followers did and muslims obey it. Prove that a fly has cure for the disease it spreads. I BOLDLY CHALLENGE YOU TO PROVE THAT FLIES CARRY CURE FOR TYPHOID

maclatunji: Classic failure here. God exists but his attributes are unique. You cannot have a 'representation' of God.

Stop trying to transfer Christian dogma to Islam.

Then you need to read your holy text because it dis-arms your argument. You are famous for speaking without research from your very own holy writs. Here is your Hadith:

(Bukhari, 6.60.105) = Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: During the lifetime of the Prophet some people said, : O Allah's Apostle! Shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?" The Prophet said, "Yes; do you have any difficulty in seeing the sun at midday when it is bright and there is no cloud in the sky?" They replied, "No." He said, "Do you have any difficulty in seeing the moon on a full moon night when it is bright and there is no cloud in the sky?" They replied, "No." The Prophet said, "(Similarly) you will have no difficulty in seeing Allah on the Day of Resurrection as you have no difficulty in seeing either of them. On the Day of Resurrection, a call-maker will announce, "Let every nation follow that which they used to worship." Then none of those who used to worship anything other than Allah like idols and other deities but will fall in Hell (Fire), till there will remain none but those who used to worship Allah, both those who were obedient (i.e. good) and those who were disobedient (i.e. bad) and the remaining party of the people of the Scripture. Then the Jews will be called upon and it will be said to them, 'Who do you use to worship?' They will say, 'We used to worship Ezra, the son of Allah.' It will be said to them, 'You are liars, for Allah has never taken anyone as a wife or a son. What do you want now?' They will say, 'O our Lord! We are thirsty, so give us something to drink.' They will be directed and addressed thus, 'Will you drink,' whereupon they will be gathered unto Hell (Fire) which will look like a mirage whose different sides will be destroying each other. Then they will fall into the Fire. Afterwards the Christians will be called upon and it will be said to them, 'Who do you use to worship?' They will say, 'We used to worship Jesus, the son of Allah.' It will be said to them, 'You are liars, for Allah has never taken anyone as a wife or a son,' Then it will be said to them, 'What do you want?' They will say what the former people have said. Then, when there remain (in the gathering) none but those who used to worship Allah (Alone, the real Lord of the Worlds) whether they were obedient or disobedient. [size=15pt]Then (Allah) the Lord of the worlds will come to them in a shape nearest to the picture they had in their minds about Him[/size]. It will be said, 'What are you waiting for?' Every nation have followed what they used to worship.' They will reply, 'We left the people in the world when we were in great need of them and we did not take them as friends. Now we are waiting for our Lord Whom we used to worship.' Allah will say, 'I am your Lord.' They will say twice or thrice, 'We do not worship any besides Allah.' "

The Hadith clearly speaks about a representation of Allah in the minds of muslims. It's no Christian dogma as you claim.

@Alexis: I don't know your life experience and not that it matters, except that if you do not need a chaperon to cross the streets on weekends, please go out to observe the palm wine drinkers in action. Ile Ife prides itself as a place where the natives wake up and first thing done is drinking palm wine. The palm wine kegites is headquartered in Ife. I bet if you hang around and observe, you will see a lot of flies in the palm wine store and they are intending to sip the palm wine because of the sweetness [yeast]. often, flies die in the drink and you may observe drinkers actually clearing them from the cups. They do not empty out their cup because of any fly dips itself in it. They simply picks it out and drink. right there, you can see that what Muhammad [sa] said is in practiced.

I don't need to go to Ile-ife to understand what you are talking about. In our markets, there are loads of flies that sit on meat and fish we buy or on the food we buy and eat. Eating these foods, does it make us sick - speaking for me personally - NOPE. Has it made another person other than me sick - YES. That is why the Hadith used the word IF:

Bukahari Vol IVNo. 537 === Narrated Abu Huraira: The prophet said."[size=15pt]If[/size] a house fly falls into the drink of anyone of you, he should dip it (into the drink) because one of it's wings has a disease and the other wing has the cure (for that disease)"

Bukhari Vol. VII, no. 673 === Narrated Abu Huraira. Allahs prophet said, "[b][size=15pt]If[/size] a fly falls in the vessel of any of you, let him dip all of it into the vessel and then throw it away, for in one of it's wings there is a disease and in the other wing there is healing"[/b]

Again, the fly can make you sick or it can't make you sick depending IF it carries a disease that can affect you. The claim is that IF it does, the same fly has the cure to that disease in it's other wing. I have a friend who is susceptible to typhoid fever, I can drink water or eat out some-place that might not be too hygienic and won't get typhoid fever but not her. She catches typhoid fever very easily so she drinks only bottled water and prepare food at home under strict hygienic conditions.

Another example, the same mosquito that can bite someone and the person get malaria can bite another person and they wouldn't get malaria but does that mean we should open our windows for mosquitoes to fly in and bite us? The prophet said IF the fly carries a disease, it has a cure for the same disease - WE KNOW THAT IS NOT TRUE AND INCORRECT.

since you will not be able to know if there is no disease in the fly that falls in the drink of palm wine drinker, how do you disprove what Muhammad [SA} says? since you can not, we have to assume that it may carry disease[s]. and if a person does not fall sick, we have to assume after all, that it carries the cure as well. the very cure for the disease that could have befallen the person. curing you before you get sick is similar to forgiving you before you sin, so you are not sick because the curing is a prevention, while forgiving you of sin before hand provides a deterrent in place when the time comes and you are in head on collision about to commit the sin, and you walk away from the situation without you committing it, respectively

You seem to be playing semantics now. Simply assuming it doesn't make you sick doesn't mean it cured you. So, what if it made you sick - then what? You can't refute the alternative by saying the cure is the evidence because it doesn't make you sick - THAT IS NOT WHAT THE HADITH SAID . Flies spread Typhoid fever, people catch typhoid fever from such flies - does it mean those flies carry the cure of typhoid fever?

I understand you are trying to rationalize and defend the statement of Mohammed but history is not on your side. Did you see what he said about genetics? I mentioned that in my last post.

He also said that a muslim has one intestine and a non-muslim has 7 intestine. Medically or scientifically, that doesn't make any sense but the prophet made this claim. He also said Adam was 90 feet tall? How tall was Eve and their kids then? These are some of the claims that I am saying is scientifically wrong.

Aderoux: christians are swift in attacking muslims on this issue. yet they have not read their bible. jesus said in matthew19 :16-27. anyone who leaves lands, houses, wiv e e.t.c would get in return hundredfolds in the kingdom of my father. lest u forget hundredfolds can also mean 999

You don't need to use the bible to explain the muslim heaven - that is what you have the Quran and Hadith for.

Mr. Alex, let me get this straight; are you saying that there is no way for a person to drink what fly has tasted [lets leave dipping it in, for a moment], except that he gets sick of whatever disease the fly carries? please give me a yes or no. then you can explain how certain you're of the yes, meaning its 100% all the time.

Nope, this is not my stand. I am not adding interpretation to the Hadith. I am merely following what it said. The BIG word here is IF. The prophet said IF, which means that the fly may or may not carry a disease. If it carries a disease, he claims it has the cure for the same disease. If it doesn't, then there is no need for a cure.

are you sure that every fly carry each of these diseases? if you are not sure why do you argue about a statement you can not prove to be certainly wrong each time?

Read the prophet claims from the Hadith again:

Bukahari Vol IVNo. 537 === Narrated Abu Huraira: The prophet said."If a house fly falls into the drink of anyone of you, he should dip it (into the drink) because one of it's wings has a disease and the other wing has the cure (for that disease)"

Bukhari Vol. VII, no. 673 === Narrated Abu Huraira. Allahs prophet said, "If a fly falls in the vessel of any of you, let him dip all of it into the vessel and then throw it away, for in one of it's wings there is a disease and in the other wing there is healing"

He used the word if as I have explained above. The issue here is that you are trying to use 21st century logic and apply it to 7th century Arabian statement that doesn't hold true to science.

lets come to what the prophet [sa] said. dip the fly that has fallen into your drink [if you must drink it] because if it carries disease, it carries it cure, too [since the disease has not manifested itself as to make the fly sick or unable to seek its food or drink [your drink], while you drink seem to have overwhelm it enough that you can dip it in].

The prophet never said "If you must drink it" - you are adding that. Also, it is not the fly that gets sick - again, this is not what the prophet said. You seem to be mis-quoting the hadith.

what is a cure? cure is a 'ending' the symptom after it manifested or a prevention of manifestation of the symptom after the action has taken place. what is prevention? action taken so that you do not engage in either of the cure above, meaning you abstain from possible 'cause' [dont consume the drink] or action that will shunt or circumvent manifestation of the symptom before it shows [the antidote]after or before the action. you can see that cure [before the symptom manifests] and prevention [so that the symptom doe not manifest] are really the same thing from different prism. the prophet [sa] the best solution for poor and people are not wasteful and you complaining about it. if you can prevent catching a disease on your own, if God through His prophet [sa] prescribes such a simple prevention by curing you before the symptom consciously doing the action while putting all your trust in God, whats the reason for your doubt since islam has great medical minds in it, today and they are away of this hadith as well?

Again, you are mis-quoting the Hadith. We all know that PREVENTION and CURE are not the same. The Hadith never mention PREVENTION, it mentioned CURE. Your attempt at saying they are the same is not true. Also, the prophet never said anything about poor people. He made a statement and you are trying to give different meanings to a simple and direct statement. My stand is simple, the statement has no medical basis. You are yet to prove that if a fly carries a disease in one of it's wings, it has cure for the same disease in another wing. MEDICALLY, that is not true and it is incorrect.

a person cure his possible headache by not participating in a dialogue with a man who will cause him headache. so he never get the headache which he was cured by refusing the dialogue. the person may go for prevention of the same headache by not participating in the dialogue because he thinks he will get a headache by it. if you dont want to take tablet to cure your headache, cure it before hand by putting in the preventive measure of no dialogue. Either way, Muhammad [sa] is not proven wrong, not by a long shot by you, even if you are the best doctor on the diseases by flies. the reason is that your knowledge is temporal and after you, there will be bigger knowledge in the field of diseases caused by flies. Yet until the last man standing, there will still be knowledge yet undiscovered on the subject. The reason i side with Muhammad [sa] is that he was truthfully honest and his statement about fly and drink is specific. the world will only discover the truth that will benefit them, a tiny amount compared with Knowledge of Allah The Creator, The One Who gave him the speech you are criticizing. This Very God has made the dipping the reason for the poor homeless man who can not throw away the drink not to catch the disease that will keep a wealthy man in the hospital.

If it was Allah that revealed to him this Hadith, then that is another question altogether. The Hadith never said it was Allah that revealed it to Mohammed. All the same, what has head-ache got to do with the statement. 7th century arabs were uneducated. Mohammed was uneducated and an illiterate (no offense I am only stating the fact); he made a claim during a time that no one could verify. We on the other hand are able to verify. And, there is no SCIENTIFIC or MEDICAL proof to back up his statement that a fly has a cure for any disease it carries.

For example, he made another claim on genetics. Here is Al-Bukari vol. 4, no 546:

As for the resemblance of the child to it's parents: If a man has sexual intercourse with his wife and get a discharge first, the child will resemble the father and if the woman gets her discharge first, the child will resemble her

Again, this might have been a wonder to 7th century Arabians but we all know that it is genetics and not one's "discharge" which is the key to the physical characteristics on one's child. My point is simple - these claims when scrutinized under the microscope of science and medicine are INCORRECT and NOT TRUE. So, you may try and rescue the Hadith by trying to rationalize it but you can't change the Hadith my friend

by the way, medicine is not an exact science, its more like an art because of the trial and error in curing any disease that has manifested itself. take simple headache as your example. there are many drugs on the market for this very simple 'disease', which making the dipping definitely a more superior cure preventing the diseases that the fly carries that the drinker was not afflicted with. you will keep your money in your pocket when you truth God while you have your share of your daily liquid. you will not need the doctor or the pharmaceutical or any intermediary [to talk to God for you when you say Bismillah].

Head-ache is not a disease. Please do some research before you make such unfounded claims. Science and medicine are interconnected and related. Medical science and research is what produces the medicine we use today. Again, this has nothing to do with what the Hadith say. Trying to dis-credit medicine to give credence to the Hadith is not a way to defend what it said.

The jamaican read your post and true to his wit, he said i should let you continue chatting away because you dont know if you have not consumed a fly or even worse in your entire life. thank to Allah you have not gotten sick by any strange thing you ate that you dont know about. the buka food could have fed you worse. the iya eleba will not tell you that she scrapped flies off the epo before hotting it to fry the ata. the food chain "taco bell' just fired a worker who licked stacks of taco shells and serve them to customers. tell me if such a food handler will not serve you fly imbedded your meal or what comes out of his bosy; take away or sit in [your preference]? go ask the palm wine drinker in the drinking store. i bet you will find flies there, sipping from almost all the uncovered glasses which is the reason they cover their cups.

Again, all that is irrelevant based on the discussion. If your Jamaican wants to eat magots and flies, that is his cup of tea. I have had ants in my food and I have eaten them, nothing happened to me. I have eaten at the buka and nothing happened to me and others have and gotten food poison so you have no point again. The Hadith is simple, it is saying - IF, there is a disease in one of the wings of the fly. If and only if

as a side not there is a snippet from the super extraordinary life of the man you are doubting with your less than absolute perfect knowledge of science; http://www.huffingtonpost.com/omid-safi/the-prophets-ascension-to-see-the-face-of-god-and-return-to-humanity_b_3403256.html?ref=topbar

I am sure Mohammed was a wonder to 7th century Arabians and probably to many muslims. However, some of his claims when it comes to science has no basis my friend. He made many claims that will either make him correct and science wrong. So far, science has proven to be right

badmusaliu: this group did not named theirself as "boko haram" only enemies of islam call them that name just to tarnish the image of islam because most of their names are islamic name. The massob or the nigerdelta gangs are from another religion why can't we refer them as christian group or are they not kiling?

What an ignorant statement. Who gave them their name then - the pope? Obama? Is Massob trying to establish a Christian state? Are they forcing Jesus down everyone's neck?

Grow up mate

vedaxcool: Gronzywares where u at? sends another mail to gronztwares . . .

I asked you a simple question - are you Sunni or Shia? Let us see if you have common sense to answer

That is your trade - we know you are good at it on nairaland; ignoring the obvious and mis-representing others; I am not surprise, you do it to your own muslim brothers. Reasoning with you is worse than reasoning with a 2 year old. You always throw reasoning out of the window.

I asked you a simple question - are you Sunni or Shia? Let us see if you have common sense to answer

vedaxcool: the thread is about a SUNNNI Scholar criticizing another group of Sunnis! If you didn't watch the video, shut uppppp! you r the desperate one trying to make it such and I have showed up your hypocrisy!

I ask why do protestant hate catholics and calll them LovePeddler of babylon, liar_axis?

You are so daft, Is lagos-shia Sunni. Is BetaThing Shia? It appears you have reading comprehension. You have two muslims from different Islamic sects debating and I was talking about their rivalry and here you go ahead mis-quoting me as always

@Alex: I said you are discussing Muhammad [sa]. read it again, while the topic is "Quran. . .". The best cure is prevention. And since the Prophet [sa] said dip it in, it implies that if there is disease in it, InshaAllah, unless it has been willed to afflict you, there will be a cure in the same it that you dip. This is common sense, because in places where you take flu shot before the the flu hit, you may still be hit with the very flu you are trying to prevent, but not as hard on you is the cure here, though it is preventing.

Again, you are giving your own interpretation to it. The Hadith was clear on what was meant. You don't have to be ignorant of what was said. Flu shot are caused by viruses, flies carry germs that are mainly bacteria - you have no point here. First, you said the prophet didn't want you to be unhygienic; now you are changing that and saying he said you can dip the fly in your drink because there is a cure. Again, he wasn't talking about prevention - the hadith CLEARLY mentioned CURE and not PREVENTION

The Messenger [sa] has received from his Lord [SWA} Who created the fly and the disease in the first place. Heck, its cure is also created and when the prophet said dip it in, I will because I have faith in what he was given; Quran, Hadith/Sunnah [wisdom]. i have eaten food that others get sick by and I didn't get sick. What guaranteed do you have to show the insect you had didnt have more disease on it that a fly that did not carry any disease on it or are you assuming fly get hatched with diseases already on it? what gives you the opinion that every fly must carry the diseases you listed from the get go? The God Who destroyed the powerful pharaoh by a mere stick in the hand of Moses, Goliath by the mere sling in the hand of boy David is capable of curing a disease by preventing it from happening in the first place. Muslims believe that their future sins are prevented by what they did in the past. Thats our belief.

Again, you are been naive because of your faith. There is no scientific basis for your prophet statement. If a fly carries typhoid fever in one wing, it doesn't posses the cure in another wing. To prove Mohammed is right will be to prove that every fly has the cure to the same disease it spreads - THAT IS NOT TRUE. You are bringing God into this. The fly statement was made by Mohammed and not Allah. That has been my point - there is no scientific basis for such claim as it has no scientific and medical fact in it. Moses, David and Goliath has nothing to do with the claim that Mohammed made mate, try and stick to the point.

Since you are sticking to the book, i wonder why you are introducing mosquito and fever here, while cure is actually preventive measure taking so that the symptom does not manifest.

The prophet didn't mention mosquito so I don't want to misquote him. He said a fly. The arid and host weather in Arabia at that time may not have been a good breeding ground for mosquitoes

if you are to prove the hadith to be absolutely incorrect by what it says, you have to be sure that every fly carries the disease that afflicts the person who dips it in his drink and you will have to prove it is the dipping it in that causes him to get sick and God has not planned it for him. you will be combining science that is not always absolute with spirituality which you lack here because you do not believe that God can prevent as a cure so that what you think is certain on you does not happen.

Mohammed made a scientific statement. So, I have to judge this statement with Science. The same way he said the earth is flat - I have to judge that by science as well. Using science, we see that both statements are wrong - there is nothing spiritual about that. He made an incorrect claim or a false statement.

i had illustrated that i know a person who had no choice but to eat the cold soup swimming with maggot. whats maggot except baby flies? if you have no choice and what is available to you as a luxury is that same cold soup, you as a christian will call Jesus and down it in a lickity split.

First you said worms, now you say baby flies - you are not being very consistent here. Dude, I will NEVER eat maggots. People eat agave worms, honeypot ants, lemon ants, etc. All these are prepared like regular meals. So, I am not disputing that some insects are edible. This thread is about flies having the cure in one of it's wings to a disease it carries in another wing - it is as simple as that.

suit yourself because the palm wine drinkers dont throw it out when the whole keg has flies in it. I am not going to go about in circle. thanks for the opinion. this is mine position.

I respect your position mate and this discussion is not about your position. It is about the statement and claim prophet Mohammed made. I appreciate your response

vedaxcool: Boohoo cry me a river . . . why don't u educate me on protestant/catholic/jeshovah witness/ frosbel etc. rivalry? Why do protestants consider catholics LovePeddler of babylon? You see remove the log from your eyes before complaining about the speck in someone else's eyes!

The thread is about Sunni and Shia rivalry - create a new thread and we will address it. You are desperately trying to change the topic.

Why do Sunnis hate Shia vedaxcool?

mr. alex, you are talking about Muhammad [sa] when the topic is about the Book, Al Quran, However, when a person is concerned about the possibility of a disease [example: seasonal flu] or engages in a risky action that increases the possibility of a particular disease, hurry up to prevent the disease occurring by immediate medical action [injection, pills] that will trigger the 'antibody' that it is not a full scale, if you get the disease at all. such injection, vaccine, pills often contain a small amount of the 'disease' [the exact combo in the fly; amount of disease and amount of prevention or cure in a preventive mode]. Muhammad [sa] didn't say when you have the disease already from one fly, get another fly and dip it in your drink so that you can cure the disease you already have [this is what you are suggesting in your last post to 'discredit' what science is actually hopeful in]. he is not even encouraging you to be careless or unhygienic so that your drink is magnet of flies.

First of all, the claim that Mohammed made about the fly is not in the Quran, it is from the Hadith. Let us review it to show that your interpretation is different from that of Mohammed's

Bukahari Vol IVNo. 537 === Narrated Abu Huraira: The prophet said."If a house fly falls into the drink of anyone of you, [size=15pt]he should dip it (into the drink) because one of it's wings has a disease and the other wing has the cure (for that disease)[/size]"

Bukhari Vol. VII, no. 673 === Narrated Abu Huraira. Allahs prophet said, "If a fly falls in the vessel of any of you, [sixe=15pt]let him dip all of it into the vessel and then throw it away, for in one of it's wings there is a disease and in the other wing there is healing"[/size]

Reading the hadith above, you can clearly see you attempt of rescuing or giving another interpretation to the intended meaning is at best "NOT TRUE". Mohammed statement wasn't related to PREVENTION of the disease like you said but a CURE. He said, if a fly carries any disease in ONE WING, take the fly, dip it into the drink it fell in because it has the same cure to that specific disease.

So, you are trying to rationalize the hadith above but it's not the same thing.

if you therefore intelligently analyze what the prophet [sa] said, by material from the web you posted above, it shows that antibiotic property was observed and Muhammad [sa] had to know something as far back as his time that is a real knowledge not fully harvested even today. so how can you find fault in light of modern medicine?

I did read and analyzed that Mohammed said and it's very very very simple: If a fly carries a disease in one wing, the fly has the cure for that same disease in another wing. It's like saying, if the fly has typhoid fever in one wing, it has the cure of typhoid fever in another - that is exactly what the hadith is saying. The hadith is not saying the fly has anti-bacterial features that muslims are posting around here. You are the one forcing the meaning of the Hadith. CURE and PREVENTION are two different things.

first, 14 centuries ago, the prophet [sa] did not perform any experiment, but gave a simple to apply solution to both medical and economical problems; if you find fly in what you are going to consume, sanitize it by dipping the whole fly in it, because this will make the contaminant its body deposited in the liquid ineffective, unless Allah has willed that you will be afflicted. This is my understanding of it, because people say whatever does not kill you makes you strong. i am sure you pick up your food cookie that falls on the ground/ the living room floor. if you tie your camel by dipping the whole fly in the liquid, you trust Allah by saying Bismalla anyways. by this if your are not wealthy, you can't afford to waste the drink. and you can get sick from uncontaminated thing, anyway; the wealthy and powerful and most hygienic get sick of food poison while the poor and not so hygienic and cant afford to throw away expired food may not get sick at all.

You are making sense here but your explanation is not related to medicine or the medical field. I agree that the prophet didn't do any experiments and as a prophet we can only deduce that it was revealed to him. Again, the hadith is clear on what it means - it said the fly has the CURE to any disease it carries. Clearly, that is not the same-thing as a fly falling in your drink and you deciding whether to continue with the drink or not. The hadith claims that the fly carries a DISEASE, so it means you will get the disease. It also claims the same fly has a CURE to that specific disease, which we know if incorrect.

For example, it's like you saying a mosquito carries the CURE to MALARIA - scientifically, that makes no sense and is NOT TRUE.

i was just reading on the news that un is proposing edible insects [i am not saying house fly] as possible solution of human food problems/shortage. who could have thought 40 years ago the un will be saying this today? http://www.kitchendaily.com/read/eating-bugs-for-protein?ncid=webmail25 [. . .An Unexpected Food That May Save Us

Eating bugs for protein has nothing to do with flies carrying diseases and the same flies having the cure. Insects are eaten all over the world i.e. visit Thailand and you will know what I am talking about.

You may want to think twice before squashing the next creepy crawler in your home. According to the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations' recent report, "Edible Insects: Future Prospects for Food and Feed Security," people in both developing and developed countries should be looking to bugs as an important food source. The report offers three main reasons: health, the environment and people's livelihoods.

In terms of nutrition, bugs could truly replace popular proteins such as fish or chicken. They are packed with healthy fats, protein, calcium, iron and zinc

People eat insects mate, I am not arguing that. That has nothing and no relation to the statement Mohammed made. However, there is no scientific article or report that will tell you a fly carries the CURE for any disease it carries.

if i go by the house fly and drink statement by the messenger [sa], as a poor man in nigeria, i will have to say the prophetic office he held was from the Only True God because who in school dorm never ate some bugs or even house fly unknowingly or unintentionally? a jamaican friend was telling me that he had ate live worms in his soup served cold in boarding school. i didn't know a single student in my era that got sick for bug infested black eyed peas meal. did you any of your school mates that was hospitalized for any insect in the food or do you throw away your meal that the fly landed before you fanned it away?[quote]mr. alex, you are talking about Muhammad [sa] when the topic is about the Book, Al Quran, However, when a person is concerned about the possibility of a disease [example: seasonal flu] or engages in a risky action that increases the possibility of a particular disease, hurry up to prevent the disease occurring by immediate medical action [injection, pills] that will trigger the 'antibody' that it is not a full scale, if you get the disease at all. such injection, vaccine, pills often contain a small amount of the 'disease' [the exact combo in the fly; amount of disease and amount of prevention or cure in a preventive mode]. Muhammad [sa] didn't say when you have the disease already from one fly, get another fly and dip it in your drink so that you can cure the disease you already have [this is what you are suggesting in your last post to 'discredit' what science is actually hopeful in]. he is not even encouraging you to be careless or unhygienic so that your drink is magnet of flies.

Are worms insects? I went to boarding school and yes, there were times ants (not flies) were in my food. Flies cause maggots and I will not eat any food with maggots in the them whether it will make me sick or not. The issue of the fly is not in the Quran, it is in the Hadith, I have quoted the Hadith for you to reference. So, let us say there was fly in my drink, a cup of soda. I took the fly, dipped it in the soda and said "What the heck, the soda is N500 anyways, I have worked hard and I will enjoy this drink and don't get sick". So, I went home and DID get sick? What then - am I to look for the SAME fly and find it's CURE? That is my point - scientifically, it is not true that the fly carries a cure for any disease it spreads - THAT IS UNSURE AND FALSE. However, let us say, I drank the drink and nothing happened to me - does that mean that Mohammed was right - NO!. That is because, I never got any disease in the first place.

So, let us stick to the hadith and the meaning.

blenble: there is alot u dnt knw abt Jehovah witness!

Why not answer His question? What do u say abt yourself? Are u three since u r made up of the spirit ,soul and body?

tintingz is all over the place. If you take him serious, you are wasting your time.

vedaxcool: u know hypocrisy is simply the inability maintain the same reaction when two similar incidents occur one u view in negative light the other u don't, unable to laugh when faced with your christians wrangling (which till date still destroys Northern Ireland) is typically hypocritical! Well this words clearly underscores who u r;

You can post it over the entire forum, it doesn't bother me. When muslims on nairaland insult themselves before they are from different sects - you respond by attacking others. You are known for even mis-quoting and mis-representing your fellow muslims so it comes as no surprise. Perhaps you can educate me about the Shia/Sunni rivalry. Why do Sunnis consider Shias an abomination?

Are you Sunni?

olamkas: You are making a fool of yourself.the fact that nothing is impossible for God doesn't mean that He will now drop any of His attribute.
He said their is non like Him in theheavens and on earth andyou still think he will come and still become a man like you,eat like you and shit like you.i swear,you are on plain error.i swearwith my life

Are you God to decide what He can and cannot do? You can swear with your eternity, that is your cup of tea. Of course there is none like God - no doubt about that. God does exist and there is a way to relate to him.

How do you relate to Allah? How do you see Him? Is He personal to you? You pray to him but do you communicate with him on a personal level. When you think of Allah, what comes to your mind, is there a shape or being? You should have a representation of God

Oga vexacool - you want to turn an Islamic thread into a Christian one . While at it, please turn it into a Hindu one as well

I have seen your bashing of LagosShia here several times. Sunni/Shia rivalry is not new. It's what tearing Syria apart. You are ignoring the topic and bringing Christianity into it. So, Christians are now Sunnis and Shias now abi?

vedaxcool: catholics: mary is mother of a certain god, those who don not worship r heathens

please laugh to the above.

To actually think you are a grown up . You just confirmed the division in Islam. Sunni and Shia rivalry, Sunnis tell Shias they commit abomination etc.

Read the thread, there is no Christianity in it - not at the beginning nor at the end .

tintingz: Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Maybe you should throw away that your bible and write yours so that the debate will a lot of senses.

Oga, what is your point? Why not tell us where in the Bible that Mary was 9 before you jump off your horse and start talking about things you can't debate

Jesus broke the sabbath law by entering into a farm that doesn't belong him and picked grains(Gospel of Matthew 12;1-14)

Really, He did - no kidding. So, he sinned by healing a sick man on the Sabbath as well. He never killed anyone or robbed a caravan but he healed sick people on sundays and ate on sunday. SO THAT IS SIN ABI - IS THAT THE BEST YOU CAN COME UP WTH?

Surah Ikhlas 112;1-4-''Say;He is Allah,one and only.Allah the absolute the eternal,he begets not nor was he begotten and there's none comparable to Him''.

Then I ask you to continue to study your Quran and Hadith, it appears you missed an important point.

(Bukhari, 6.60.105) = Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: During the lifetime of the Prophet some people said, : O Allah's Apostle! Shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?" The Prophet said, "Yes; do you have any difficulty in seeing the sun at midday when it is bright and there is no cloud in the sky?" They replied, "No." He said, "Do you have any difficulty in seeing the moon on a full moon night when it is bright and there is no cloud in the sky?" They replied, "No." The Prophet said, "(Similarly) you will have no difficulty in seeing ALLAH on the Day of Resurrection as you have no difficulty in seeing either of them. On the Day of Resurrection, a call-maker will announce, "Let every nation follow that which they used to worship." Then none of those who used to worship anything other than Allah like idols and other deities but will fall in Hell (Fire), till there will remain none but those who used to worship Allah, both those who were obedient (i.e. good) and those who were disobedient (i.e. bad) and the remaining party of the people of the Scripture. Then the Jews will be called upon and it will be said to them, 'Who do you use to worship?' They will say, 'We used to worship Ezra, the son of Allah.' It will be said to them, 'You are liars, for Allah has never taken anyone as a wife or a son. What do you want now?' They will say, 'O our Lord! We are thirsty, so give us something to drink.' They will be directed and addressed thus, 'Will you drink,' whereupon they will be gathered unto Hell (Fire) which will look like a mirage whose different sides will be destroying each other. Then they will fall into the Fire. Afterwards the Christians will be called upon and it will be said to them, 'Who do you use to worship?' They will say, 'We used to worship Jesus, the son of Allah.' It will be said to them, 'You are liars, for Allah has never taken anyone as a wife or a son,' Then it will be said to them, 'What do you want?' They will say what the former people have said. Then, when there remain (in the gathering) none but those who used to worship Allah (Alone, the real Lord of the Worlds) whether they were obedient or disobedient. [size=15pt]Then (Allah) the Lord of the worlds will come to them in a shape nearest to the picture they had in their minds about Him[/size]. It will be said, 'What are you waiting for?' Every nation have followed what they used to worship.' They will reply, 'We left the people in the world when we were in great need of them and we did not take them as friends. Now we are waiting for our Lord Whom we used to worship.' Allah will say, 'I am your Lord.' They will say twice or thrice, 'We do not worship any besides Allah.' "

Jesus clearly say that people have never seen God,as it says in John 5:37:"And the father himself which Has sent me,has borne witness of me. You have NEITHER HEARD HIS VOICE AT ANY TIME NOR SEEN HIS SHAPE"? Contradiction or you don't understand the bible.

You asked me to prove if God was described; I have. There is no contradiction. I want to explain John 5 for you but it will take too much space. However, if you insist, I definitely will

Shame on you,big shame on you,You ought to cover your face and start crying,and If people ask you why you are crying,tell them you have been brainwashed to the extent that you can't think on your own again.Do you know the maximum frequency the ear can bear? 1400Hz,so your God can also hear that?!!! God has two eyes,yet he manages the world affairs? Do you know human body need food to survive all these parts of the body,God also eats and drink? Seriously,you've got concentrated problems,even raised to the power of 15.I am not keen in explaining anything to you again,your reasoning is so low.At what age?

Why are you so lame. Did I claim God is bound by our human limitations? I said we are created in His image. I never said we are equal in power to him. Can't you use your brain and think. Can a baby run as fast as an adult? Doesn't the baby have two ears and two hands and legs just like a grown-up. Come on man, use your brain for once.

Even If I explain to you,you will never understand because you are a big goon,don't quote me again cos I won't reply your stupid ideas anymore.....Peace

Please indulge me

It is important for us to refer to the Quran and Hadith to describe the muslim heaven. So, while our muslim friends educate and explain to us. Can they please refer to the Quran and Hadith as authoritative sources for their explanation

Paris_Love: @fellis see you don't have to worry about inequality in paradise anymore when you can desire equality and get it. You can also wish for your own 82 hot dudes and get it or a single spouse as the case may be. See problem solved.

But since it's an open season for wishes lets hope someone else doesn't wish away your equality for women in paradise. Then you'd have to spend most of your time in paradise wishing and countering anti women wishes. And cycle continues...

82 hunks and one babe - omo; how will the woman walk after that?