₦airaland Forum

kayce911: your answer didnt answer the question is he in hell too ?

Hellfire/lake of fire is God's wrath. We can't detach hell fire/lake of fire from God. it reflects a part of his nature/attributes- wrath. We can't go beyond what the scripture told us about it. Ayoku77 has dropped some quotations. By the grace of God I'm not going to hell fire so I don't need to bother myself about whether God is there or not. Cheers.

Candour: In fact, I'm nominating you, alexleo to handle a topic this year. No is not an option abeg.

Thanks

ERROR.

DrummaBoy: @alexleo

Forgive me for omitting your name. Its added now.

Sorry bro that's an error. I'm not a pastor, I'm just an ordinary church member. I don't bring out time to do thorough bible study like pastors because of my business. That's bad of me though. Most times you see me ask too much questions here or argue much, its just for me to learn better, not that I know very well. I can only contribute where I think I know. Pls delete my name and save this house of my bad. God bless you.

frosbel: What is truth exactly, is it Jesus Truth or Portland Oregon Truth ?

If AF preach truth, why are they still preaching the LIE of the Tithe and a Mythical half god and half man.

A word of caution :

"They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths." - 2 Timothy 4:4

Thanks.






myth [mith]
noun
1.
a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, especially one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature.

Same rantings of a drowning beloved brother. May God deliver you. Amen.

Candour: For the above reason, I'm excusing myself from being nominated to present anything this year.

My dear you don't need to excuse yourself. I think we are the ones that should request for who should be dropped(except if my assumptions are wrong). I only expressed my rejection of frosbel and his heresy. There are some people in that list that I'm looking forward to reading their presentations and you are one of them. Bidam, OLAADEGBU and Tgirl have excussed themselves, Now you too. when you people are excusing yourselves like this it means we are losing people that will say the truth. And if we lose truth speakers then the conference will be filled with liars. Too bad.

frosbel: Let's have a look at your Jesus ;

1. He is not a real man, more like half god and half man (the stuff of Myth that Apostle Paul warned us about )
2. He did not die fully , only his body died. Hmmm
3. He is also God Almighty.......that's strange
4. He has reserved 99.98% of the human race for eternal roasting ( now that's what I call LOVE )
5. I dare say most of you in this thread serve different Jesuses, for while some believe he will save only those who have been chosen even If they sin rampantly, others believe that to sin means eventual destruction while others are somewhere in the middle. The Jesus of some likes to collect tithe while the Jesus of others thinks it is false doctrine etc. Last time I checked there was 1 Christ and he is not the Apostolic faith Christ ( that one is in Portland Oregon ) , he is not the catholic Christ ( that one is in the Vatican ), he is the saviour and Christ of ALL mankind.

I reject all man made religion and the thousands of self appointed men who lead a thousand churches all contrary to on another . Smh.

Rantings of a drowning man. I ve told you we don't need your self created Jesus. We are very okay with the Jesus in the scripture. We don't need your words. The bible is very clear for us to read and understand so keep your rants and your discoveries to yourself. We don't need it sir.

frosbel: Lol.

Let me put your religious mind at rest ! I did not intend to partake of this convention not because I do not believe in Christ but because of time.

Not everyone is dogmatic and brainwashed by American churches.

Even if you had all the time, they shouldn't feature you in the conference. You are serving a different Jesus. We don't. need another Jesus than the one in the scriptures.
Those who are following you are also brainwashed by your doctrine. Don't you know? You are also as "guilty" as the American church.

Gombs: See bitterness na

But bro he is right in what he said about some of these pastors pls. The only thing I don't agree with him is abusing them. I ll rather blame members of such churches who are supposed to ask questions but have refused to do so in the name of touch not my annointed.

Again I want to know why frosbel is among the teachers. He has declared in this forum that he is not a chirstian and that he is serving a different Jesus and a different God yet you people still included him here. To teach us what exactly? Can't you people do without him?. For someone who said he is still evolving from his believe I think it would ve been better to allow him to land, at least to know what his new findings/doctrine is all about, before allowing him to teach whatever but it seems you people tremble and bow before him like a god. Everything he preaches is oksy by you. You dare not oppose or question him(of course none of you have done that to my own knowledge). Does this action from you people show sincerity of purpose?

It baffles me when people can't discern when a post is sarcastic such as this very one. And you wate your time giving a detailed reply to sacarsm? Na wa for those of you replying this OP.

Tgirl4real: I have to agree with you 100% here. Frosbel claims to be a follower of the way, not knowing he is already an enemy of the way.

Imagine asking people to go match to preach the 'real' gospel when he got his doctrine twisted already. Anyone who listens and accept this brand of "the gospel" would be left worse and more depraved than he was before he met Frosbel.

I love this. Thanks dear. Ayoku77, torchwave, schidemidemi thanks to you all.

ikes9: Well...God created him...knowing that he would rebel... but like I said FREE CHOICE .... God knowing Lucifer would rebel still wanted to give him the liberty to choose of he would still go on with the rebellion..or if he would repent...

Now let's look at it this way. In the case of man, God forewarned him on the consequences of making a wrong choice, God also made provision for redemption of the fallen man even before creating him(Rev 13: 8 ) but in the case of Lucifer there is no where in the bible that we are told that he was forwarned about making any wrong choice or wrong move, no redemption plan was made before his creation and even after as was done in the case of man. Yes, lucifer did not beg God but remember also that Adam and Eve did not beg God yet God clothed them and still blessed them with children. Now doesn't this show you that lucifer's scenario was just meant to be so for the purposes I earlier mentioned?

ikes9: didn't God know that Judas Iscariot would betray his son Jesus Christ
didn't God know that peter would deny Christ 3 times!!.
but did that stop God from creating them??... NO!
i

My dear its still the same thing I'm saying- PURPOSE. Somebody must betray Jesus. Somebody must deny Jesus. What you mentioned here were part of the redemption package. Remember when peter cut somebody's ear off, what did Jesus tell him? Read it again in the bible. Nothing stops God from sending his angels to come and save Jesus from dying if not that a PURPOSE of God was being fulfilled. So it was a case of- somebody must not save Jesus from dying. He just has to die to fulfill God's pupose. The word purpose remains the keyword in Lucifers case just like it is the key word in the case of Jesus death.

ikes9: YES! God is all knowing... he knows all... both the past..present and future....But he doesn't know the choices we make...The choices we make solely depends on us..God has no influence in the choices we make...
like I said... we choose our actions freely...but we do not choose the consequences of our actions

Yes I agree with you here except the one you said that God does not know the choice we will make. You may be right and you may be wrong. But remember he is all knowing. Can't really say much about this yet. May be I ponder on it after.

My dear just look at these things from a balanced view point- not to defend God and not to offend or abuse him. Thanks.

Candour: Hi alexleo, I'm sure you saw the thread titled 'non tithers are criminals' on the first page?

The name calling and hate is on both sides of the divide. Both sides are guilty pls

I don't think I saw the thread. There are threads I don't read. Even if I had seen it I may not bother to read it. I don't read every thread.

PastorKun: I don't know what you mean, it's not nice to quote people out of context thereby mis representing their position. You should learn to be more specific thereby avoiding unnecessary generalisations.

I did not say anything strange. Gombs made some points on it.

striktlymi: You may not hate and probably others may say the same but the display shown here demonstrates a strong dislike for people (not necessarily what they do) which defines hatred perfectly.

I don't think we can say that its hatred. A lot of disagreements come up in our discussions here though sometimes we go far in name calling yet I don't see hatred in it. I still advice we change. We can raise issues on doctrines that we think are against the scriptures but we shouldn't let it generate to hatred. In three different catholic occassions that I attended, the priests that preached were wonderful. They preached sound word of God so it doesn't mean that everything about catholic is wrong. No church is perfect.

PastorKun: I am yet to see a thread were tithers are labelled as "fraudsters" what i see is people labelling tithe collectors and preachers fraudsters. Tithers are at best a victim of this fraud and we actually sympathise with them and not call then names.

Bro you know what I mean. The battle and name calling has always been between you guys and the people I mentioned.

I like the idea of unity that is being foistered here but since you guys branded tithers "fraudsters", then it means that "fraudsters" like Bidam, Image123 and OLAADEGBU shouldn't have been included in your list. Since when did fraudsters become bible teachers? "Is Saul among the prophet?

mmsen: What makes your brand of xtianity any less of a scam?

1000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 likes.

banom: Hi friends longest time. I left nairaland and the religion section long ago, though a times I do visit and make few comments and pass by. I missed all my religion section friends . Wow, can't forget those moments we discuss and bash . It was fun and revealing. I missed you guys and am finally back. We will begin again.

Cheers pals.

Davidalyn
Seun
Abuzola
Tudor
Noetic
Koolchiko(womanizer)
Atheist
Huxley
Mazaje
Manmustwac
Jesoul
Spicylinder
Ogaga4luv
Mr cruckle
Pastor aio
Openluvly

And so many others.

Welcome banom. So nice seeing you again. Huxley breezed in here some time this year I think. But we didn't hear from him again. Our beloved Jesoul has been out for a long time now. Welcome, welcome and welcome.

JMAN05: Ur request is rejected. I will defend God cos I consciously dedicated my life to serve Him. I did it with good reason of knowing Him.

If you think what I know about Him from the bible is wrong, then lets look at the topic once more, ie predestination. I agree to be open
minded. But I wont agree to cease from defending Him just with a plea from u. He is a God of justice and love.

My submission above has a scriptural backup, so it isn't just a blind conclusion.

The simple message I was passing is for you to say the truth about God at all times. It is the truth of God's word that will defend God not you. Not manipulation of his word. Where the bible says he is a God of wrath you accept, where it says he is a God of love you accept. Not where it says the one you are not comfortable with or the one that doesn't fall in line with your church doctrine and belief or the one that you don't understand you start telling long stories in the name of defence. You only make a mockery of him by doing so. I'm not pleading with you not to defend him, you can go ahead with your defence. For me I prefer discussing with people who are not out to defend or abuse God. They just have an open mind to know more of him. When we all present the truth of his word unadulterated, it is that truth that will defend him and set us free from confusion and wrong perception of him. Jesus said its the truth that sets free, not manipulation of the truth. Having said this, I hereby end further discussion with you on this issue because your submission as a so called "God defender" can only give me a one sided view, a view that is powered by sentiments and I don't need it sir. I need a balanced view so let me continue with those who wants to discuss with open mind. Thanks.

malvisguy212: alexleo, nice one.

God bless you.

Debroslink: I agree with you 100%. The problem or truth of the matter is that we can NEVER know His purpose due to our limitations as humans. The secret things belong to Him. Even the Bible does not tell us everything about God. However, we argue and raise our facts based on the Bible. The Bible is our level about God. It is not God's level about Himself.

Serve God and obey His commandments. That's our purpose on earth. Let's do that and fulfill it instead of trying to understand God's purpose which will lead to nowhere. The secret things that belong to God will be revealed to us at afterlife.

God is too large. As large as eternity so we cannot know everything about him but based on his word we can arrive at a certain level in answering some questions such as this. Then we leave the rest to him. The problem I have with us christians is that we try to pretend about God in some issues. Some of us try hard to detach God completely from lucifers fall yet will still insist that he is all-knowing. An all knowing God cannot be detached completely from the fall of lucifer. Their defence makes a mockery of God. Did God instruct us to defend him? No. Let's always put the whole card we know about God as described in the bible on the table when reasoning about him so as to have a balanced view(not 100 percent view) of him. Thanks.

chuxyz: i was nodding while reading this. You spoke the TRUTH and nothing but the true TRUTH. Christians are always out fighting for God who has made himself known. Nice bro

Thanks bros. Now coming to the issue of purpose, the purpose of creating man I believe is not for us to be tormented by the devil.
We know the attributes/nature of God as we learnt from the bible that he is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient. He is also a Loving God and he is also a God of judgment/wrath. Also God of mercy. There is nothing in the bible that shows that God does not want these attributes of him to be made manifest but there are a lot in the bible that shows that God does not pretend about his nature. Also in Malachi 3:6 God said he is unchangeable, which means that he never developed any of these nature of his after creation or as a result of his creation rather this has been his nature before he created all things.
In the light of this, how then can his judgment/wrath be made manifest if lucifer did not sin? I mean he couldn't have started unleashing judgment/wrath in a perfect, peaceful and sinless heaven. Again how then could we experience his mercy if there was no sin? His mercy wouldn't have manifested. This is why I said God allowed the fall of lucifer and the fall of man for a purpose. Let me know your views about this then we can proceed till we get to the other question you raised in Genesis.

chuxyz: So you mean God did that on purpose so we all gather here on earth and be tormented by lucifer? If he did that on purpose why did he regret ever creating man? (Genesis 6:6). Will you regret what you did on purpose?

Can we start with the purpose first? Then we can move to this other one because as i discuss, i learn too. Its a two way thing. None of us were born with a bible so we keep reading and discussing and asking God to help us understand. Thats how i do. Not that i am a master in bible knowledge.

frank317: Thank u very much for this answr. If this answer had come since this thread wouldn't have reach 2 pages.

What most christians don't know is that people just don't make decision to be atheists without think so religious doctrines through. Most times sincere answers such as this help in leting them get their minds of some things.

Yea bros thanks, i quite understand your point. The bible is very plain about the nature/attributes of God and this should help us have a balanced view of God but we Christians, in our effort to defend God, handpick some attributes of him that we like and use it to draw conclusions that will be unsatisfactory to one who wants to know. And in the process the person becomes more confused. If we can be plain about God based on what his nature is and relate it to this issue then this issue wont be brewing confusion here and there. And like the OP said, pastors are guilty of this too. I know they are doing the defence in good faith but does the defence really matter to God? I mean in the bible God did not hide or pretend about his nature/attributes so why should people hide or pretend about it when explaining some issues about him? God did not also say that we should not discuss what is written in the bible about his attributes. What i would not want to do is to view God outside the attributes that is written of him in the bible.

Debroslink: The death of Christ on the cross was done even before God created Adam and Eve. Does that answer your question?

This brings us to the earlier answer i gave that God was not taken unawares by Lucifer. He knew before hand that Lucifer will fall and still created him and this means that he created him for a purpose. God also knew that the fall of lucifer will lead to the fall of man and he made provision for our redemption plan. Revelations 13:8 says he is the [b]lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world. [/b]This simply tells you that the fall of lucifer and the fall of man is part of the creation package. None took God unawares. And it is for a purpose. Do you agree with me?

ikes9: one thing yhu people fail to realise is this....
God our Eternal father... created all things...(Planets..galaxies etc...)...He also created all creatures(Angels and Humans)....God didn't create a defective angel that would later rebel and become Satan... in every being God created... he gave FREE CHOICE(or how i call it.. AGENCY)......We all have the freedom of choice..we can choose to Worship God... or we can choose to live a life of Sin...
but beware..
we have the freedom to choose our actions
but we do not have the freedom to.choose the consequences of our actions.....
The rebellion in Heaven.. is Enough proof that God gave his angels freedom of choice.
. ask your self... y didn't God immediately destroy Lucifer when that evil thought of rebellion came into.his mind
In Gods INFINITE wisdom..he knew the best thing to do..was to let it run its course...if yhu want more answers...
y don't yhu live a good Christ like life here.on earth...
when yhu get to Heaven..
yhu can ask God himself...

Yeah you are right that God gave us freewill but the question here now is- Since God is all-knowing, did he know that Lucifer will fall before he created him or did lucifer's action take him unawares? If he knew, then what made him to go ahead and create him, and if he didnt know, then does that not mean that he is not all-knowing? Whats your take on this pls?

JMAN05: God has the ability to foreknow, but he does not use it always. My brother, I think this is the logical conclusion we can reach from what we learn from the bible.

It is true that many people agree that God has predestined everything, but the scriptures leaves us in doubt of that doctrine. In short, that will make God, not only cruel, but wicked. Lets think about it this way.

If we subscribe to the believe that God predestined everything, it means that God created the Devil, God brought temptation, God brought death. It means that God created people to be evil and then punish those evil men for being evil. Is that the God you serve?

Now, for those that believes in hellfire, muse:

God created the Devil to tempt people, God created many people to be bad persons, and when they act out the role to which they have been predestined, God will hurl them into an eternal fire to be burned over things they were created to be. Is that the kind of "God" you serve?

It also means that God created atheists to be atheists, so why do you criticize them for being atheists? Is it not God who is to blame for making them so? How can "God" create Adam and Eve, knowing that the Devil He will be sending will catch them alive, and the same "God" comes and said that He desired no one to be destroye? 2Pet 3:9

How can there be anyone who will not be destroyed, when it is his will, it was His making for billions to be destroyed?

Why should anyone pray against the Devil or label Him bad, when "God" created him so? Shouldn't "God" be blamed instead? How can a robot be held responsible for its actions?

Think about it bro.

Well i understand what you are saying but i beg to disagree with you bro. One thing we christians have done over the years is trying to defend God and it is this defence that has always brought unsatisfactory answers to this lucifer question. And thats what you ve done in your post hence my disagreement with your submission. If you can keep an open mind now we could discuss it. I mean dont defend God and dont also abuse him. Just keep an open mind and accept the descriptions that the scripture gave about him and relate it to our points and lets see what we can arrive at. Are you ok with that?

frank317: or perhaps, God created him so that he can become satan the devil... mayb that was the sole purpose of creating him, except you are trying to tell me the angelic satan took him by surprise(and wouldnt that be laughable?)

.

Having gone through your posts here, i appreciate the calm manner you ve been responding to people's posts here even when you dont agree with them. Let me make my contributions and views to your post.

I believe Lucifer did not take God by surprise. God was aware of everything about Lucifer before even creating him. He is an all knowing God according to the description given in the scripture about him. This simply tells that there is a purpose behind why God allowed Lucifer go the way he did. I mean God is a creator, he couldnt have created without a purpose.

frosbel: If they were so plain how come you lack understanding on most of the core issues ?

Which understanding? Twisted interpretations is what you want me to understand or what? No sir.

frosbel: ^^

But how can I take you seriously when the version of bible you listen to and preach is based on the Apostolic Faith interpretation ?

What is there to interpret? Most of the things written in the bible are plain statements that you don't need anybody to interpret what has AF got to do with it?. You know I dont read one version of the bible because I ve made several biblical quotations here from other versions. Frosbel you are just confused. You know me better than what you are now saying.

frosbel: 1. But you are a victim to a church that has it's HQ not in heaven where Jesus is but in Portland Oregon , no
2. A church that once preached against medicine and I was hours away from death because I thought it was a sin to disobey.
3. A place where all other denominations are condemned to hell
4. A place that operates like a cult with a few privileged men at its helm, no women leaders.

etc etc

Pal, I said good bye to all that rubbish many years ago , lol.

Man you are confused. You and I concluded this issue of church some two years ago when you were screaming stick to the bible. The issue I have with you now is not about church but about leaving the bible you screamed we should stick to and sticking to sentiments. Bringing up church issue here makes you look like a drowning man struggling to hold on to anything to support himself and survive. You and I know that since time I ve never preached church. Even now, I never spoke against you for leaving any church rather for leaving the bible you said we should stick to and sticking to sentiments. You sound more confused bro.