₦airaland Forum

PAGAN  9JA:
brother the damage is already done and[i] for now [/i] we have to stick to this term (Pagan). the xtians used it on us with negaive meaning.

the only way we can change it in the near future, is by calling for something like an[b] International Pagan Tribal Confederation [/b] or some sort like that and look for a new name to apply to us all.


but for now, we stick to the term, Pagan.

Dont let anybody try to define who you are; you define who you are.

I am not irreligious and thats the bottom line. Although i must say that i understand the point you make yet i still remain convinced that the only way to teach those ignorant pundicts that use this allegory is by enlightening them.

And by the way there are peolple that belong to pagan organisations, so i'm not saying that the term pagan does not exist, rather it is that its is being misused on people that have no affiliation to paganism.

One cannot be deemed a pagan just because he/she is not a muslim or xtian. You dont need to look for a new name, your school of thought is your school of thought. A spade is a spade and not an instrument for,

Because of the great carpet destruction of evidence in major African cities & libraries, we have been forced to believe the Europeanized version of events that suggests that African personnel first migrated towards the Americas during the horific 16th - 18th century holocaust.

Dr. Ivan Van Sertima was one of the first to gain momentum about the researched that debunks this as one of histories great falsities, now it is an open and shut case that the Western world still deny; their assumption that Africans are always stagnant and refuse to accept Africas role in the development of human existence and civilisation as a whole. The first pyramid to appear at Leventa is in the Americas.

Black Africans are associated with the "Olmec" an ancient civilization that existed during the Egyptian dynasty. There are massive statues that were found in South America known as the "Collossal Heads" that depict black African warriors in full regalia.

Inshort, there is now sufficient evidence for the prove of black African migration to and fro Asia, Americas and Europe.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMg-79AzbI4&feature=related
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sttg1A5Ncfs&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IywJ1DGuecY

With great anger and fustration i'm sorry to say that it isnt only Nigerians that are being masacred in Libya, its pretty much all black Africans,

By the so-called rebels; infact Nato aswell. I'm sure you are all aware that the entire conflict in Libya was based on lies, Gadaffi did not commit the attrocities that the West accused him of in the first place. Moreover, the no fly zone that was approved by the UN to "help protect Libyan civilians" Do you know the official count for civilians that have been killed by both Nato and the Rebels (that are a combination of estrained Arab gureilla fighters, American, British, French, Italian, Turkish special forces)? The nubers are in the 100,00's

Protect yourselves at all times (Do you remember the Mayweather Jnr boxing bout? That is an example of what i mean by protect yourselves at all times) Take a leaf out of Brazil and Iran's book; Brazil are know consider to be the next super power because they got their priorities straight; Spend money on defence and not swizz bank accounts.

The western world is broke and will keep at their horrible ways with their war machines as their main weapon; I beg of you please defend yourselves and your neighbours. China, Russia, Brazil, India these are the countries that Johnathan should ally with; get them to upgrade our defence systems and keep spending and upgrading, It will be money well spent.

With great anger and fustration i'm sorry to say that it isnt only Nigerians that are being masacred in Libya, its pretty much all black Africans,

By the so-called rebels; infact Nato aswell. I'm sure you are all aware that the entire conflict in Libya was based on lies, Gadaffi did not commit the attrocities that the West accused him of in the first place. Moreover, the no fly zone that was approved by the UN to "help protect Libyan civilians" Do you know the official count for civilians that have been killed by both Nato and the Rebels (that are a combination of estrained Arab gureilla fighters, American, British, French, Italian, Turkish special forces)? The nubers are in the 100,00's

Protect yourselves at all times (Do you remember the Mayweather Jnr boxing bout? That is an example of what i mean by protect yourselves at all times) Take a leaf out of Brazil and Iran's book; Brazil are know consider to be the next super power because they got their priorities straight; Spend money on defence and not swizz bank accounts.

The western world is broke and will keep at their horrible ways with their war machines as their main weapon; I beg of you please defend yourselves and your neighbours. China, Russia, Brazil, India these are the countries that Goodluck should ally with; get them to upgrade our defence systems and keep spending and upgrading, It will be money well spent.

manmustwac :
The mind of the African is still evolving. We are still stuck back in the dark ages and have .not reached the age of enlightenment yet. .

Its your mind that is still evolving & not reached the age of enlightenment. The African was responsible for everything that civilisation has to offer today; we kick started it all: Farming; banking, Writting, reading, Law, Government e.t.c

PAGAN 9JA:
In the good old days, we Africans were content, simple people. we had enough food, shelter, and a stable lifestyle. In times of need, we turned to our Gods for help and to our ancestors for guidance.

However, since arab man and white man come to Africa to destroy, enslave and enforce their religion on us, we have gone through many hardships. constant famines, hunger, poverty, new disease like AIDS, etc has destroy our people. we have lost much of the knowledge of our anccestors. our Gods are on the brink of abandoning us. since we accepted these foreign religions, we have become an accursed people. cchristians fight against muslims and everyone kills or tries to convert the traditionalist. look at Nigeria now. my own Haussa peoples are doing suicde blasts, etc. WHY FOR WHAT REASON WHY ARE WE READY TO GIVE OUR LIVES FOR SOME FOREIGN GOD WE HAVE NEITHER BELIEVED IN, NOR IS PART OF US??!!!!!

its time Nigeria unite. Hausa, Fulani, Yoruba, Igbo, etc. we unite, yet we follow our true beliefs. for in this lies, Nigeria progress.

Totally! and i would also like to add that the African school of thought rejects the notion and any sort of connection with the term "pagan". Its just like answering to "gentile" or "keferi"; its preposterous.

The dictionary definition of Pagan1) Having, being, or relating to religious beliefs which are not part of the major religions: e.g "this was the site of the pagan temple to the sun"
(2)Irreligious
(3)A person without any religion [Church Latin paganus civilian (hence not a soldier of the christ)]

In my opinion Adam wasnt the name given to the first ever being; it merely depends on where you come from. For me the first person to be created can be translated as "The first person ever to be created" this was the name given to that elder.

I think you are more confused than anything, the Yorubas did not come from Canan or anywhere in Asia for that matter; rather from Ile-Ife.

No offence; but i would advice you to stop smoking ganja its not good for your health. Moreover what has the bible got to do with the Yorubas? Last i checked the stories in that book are based on instances claimed to have occured in the middle East. So if you want to learn about the ficticious past of the middle East then keep quoting the bible but if you want to learn about the Yorubas, then go enrol into one of our Universities and choose "Yoruba Studies" as your discipline.

Instead of exhibiting ignorance of the highest order.

I apologize to those that may have been offended in any way shape or form, this thread isnt meant for personal vendeta or a means of belittling the next guys school of thought. But still in an open argument one can only expect some sort of backlash to say the least; i must say though that there has been multiple answers to the questions this post presents and goodness knows how long it will take for me to attempt to digest the essence of the main pointers. I'm in no doubt that i've been left blessed with this experience and so are YOU

I wonder if you both still hold the belief that all Africans were transported to America throught the horific Slave Trade. If thats the case maybe you want to search youtube for "African king's journey to America". Another interesting pointer that you will find is universally accepted is the fact that humanity stemed from this great continent Africa so think again.

devayid:
the zietgeist "movement" is nice if you like running on the spot. cuz you aint going nowhere.

rofl! no wait sorry for laughing because this is meant to touch a serious chord. The idea sounds plausable in the sense that everyone is engrossed in the money fever instead of thinking how best to tollerate one another.

Forgive me if i'm a bit sceptical about the whole light camera action but i think even thought the idea could run for miles, the site would probably need a total make-over.

You've lost approximately 30% of your audience with the greeting of a mal-nurished looking African-American. I dont mean to be funny but the person who designed the sight needs to lighten-up. The skinny kid with flies on his eyelids picture is suppose to represent who?. And i'm suppose to sign up to this? Pathetic!

How about greeting your audience with a boy with a pencil in his ears, calculator in his hands, football on his feet, infront of a computer screen, chalk in his hand as approaching the chalkboard, 

I hope i'm not spammming this thread?  Again if you deem it as such i would like to seriously appologize, Its just that type of perception of the African kids is so 1900's.

Deep Sight: Firstly, humanity is more complex and variegated than this. It could very well simply be that the person is ill informed about your relatives. Or that in his culture (African Culture for example) the definition of a sibling extends to everybody from the same village. So perspectives like that abound and could easily create the seeming differences you refer to. At all events even if some people are entirely wrong in their information about you on some, matters, that would not change the fact that it is still you they are discussing, would it?

Secondly, and more importantly, it is actually not possible in this case for you to use such an example because the core defining qualities which i referred to are very unique and not to be found in any random person strolling down the street. They could only possibly refer to one thing - - - the cause of the universe.

Remember the qualities i mentioned which they all share: a self-existent, eternal, absolute element which is the origin of all things.

These are qualities that are unique to that entity percieved as teh eternal creator, and as such you cannot realistically assert that they are all referring to different entities.

Interesting points, thanks

aribisala0:
it strikes me that many of the contributors have opininions that they  hold quite tenaciously. i do not think at the end of this exercise many will change their minds.
as far as the question of the thread goes my view is that it depends on the users; speaker/writer and audience.
it is also my view that whilst almost all renderings of olodumare refer to a supreme being or cause of all that exists. that does not answer the question fully.

the nature of this being are also key so
e.g. the jews and some christians believe that jehovah nominated the israelites as a chosen people and thus created a dichotomy of jew/gentile
the muslims believe differently regarding allah
ditto for the yorubas olodumare
some  JEWS see it as a he, as a deity requiring blood sacrifice worship etc. these all relate to the question
what is the nature of this entity?? without addressing this it is difficult to sustain the idea that  it/ they are one and the same.
finally there are those who believe in a PRIMARY cause but do not see this as a being i.e. ANTI anthropomorphism perspective. consequently whilst accepting an original cause do not accept that it is a being which requires worship or in anyway interferes in human affairs.
in other words whilst conceptually there may be fundamental similarities there are huge conceptual dissimilarities too and so it would be a disingenuous compromise to conclude that olodumare god and allah are all the same

they are not.
finally .
this is my perspective whish i just wish to publish here. i do not seek to change any one's mind and so i won't be arguing it with any one.

Interesting points, thanks

Pastor AIO:
Exactimentifagablelissimo!!!!

So let us look at the subject of this thread again.

Re: Are Olodumare And "god/allah" The Same Entity/concept/word?

1. Word -  No they are definately not the same word.  They are spelt differently with different phonetic sounds and different number of syllables.

2.  Concept - No they are not the same concept. 

3.  Entity -  From the above it is obvious that they are therefore not the same Entity. 

I hope we have arrived at a suitable point to put everyone at rest, and also bring an end to this tedious thread.

Intersting points thanks

Jenwitemi:
-Olodumare
-Jehovah/Yahweh
-Allah
-The trinitarian God

All of the above are just man-made concepts made for that part of mankind that lies in the lower rung of the societal pyramidal structure to fight themselves over. That is all. They are just words that mean little to nothing. The concepts behind them are just that, empty concepts meant to cause divisions. And like pastor IO has said, they are just mere claims and nothing more. Enjoy wasting your time and energy in debating and fighting over nothing, while life passes on by.

Interesting points, however  you might want to check this thread: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-636867.0.html#msg8094060 where there is discussion going on about the issues you just raise. It is not fact that a school of thought causes division or offense it is we humans rather that are the both jufge and jury i'm afraid , so i would implore you to stop hiding behind the umbrella of "religion" as the blame for your short-comings it doesnt wash.

Furthermore, i would like to ask you this, do YOU accept the possibility of conscience?

thehomer:
Rest your case? What is the relevance of a conscience to this discussion?


It is in part.


No it isn't. If Olodumare has Orishas and the others do not what does that tell you?


I'm the first? Good. Does the context demonstrate that deities are not Gods?


Which Olodumare? The traditional Yoruba one or the Christian Yoruba one?


What is Vavavoom? And what is its relevance here?

One cannot hardly blame me if i am to suggest that it seems you're a little confused on what the thread reads, and i will reiterate for the sake of those that may have misread; Are Olodumare And "God/Allah" The Same Entity/concept/word?


If there is any other thing that is bugging you, ask it to the thread and if you are not satisfied with our answers you are free to post it as spanking new thread.

Deep Sight:
Mr. Homer already expressly accepted the possibility that all the references to a supreme being are references to the same entity.

Thus, he wastes time with any further argument.

Really? I wonder what he has to say for himself about this?.

thehomer:
The possibility? We do have a conscience.

Well then, i rest my case.

thehomer:
Not believing in something doesn't stop one from discovering whether or not it's true neither is it a reason for not finding out why it has such extreme influence on people.

Well keep your fascination, but this isnt about discovering whether YOU believe it to be true or not.

thehomer:
Do Jehovah and Allah have Orishas?.

Well since you brought that up, why dont you answer it  yourself or was that meant as a Rhetoirical question?

thehomer:
All you're displaying is your current bias towards a particular notion because in general parlance, deities are regarded as Gods

Are they? let me remind you that the definition is determined by the context in which it lies and not the other way round. It seems to me that you're the first i've come accross that presents this point of view; this is merely your opinion and you're free to hold it but please if you're trying to debunk anyone elses you're merely wasting your time. A bicycle is rider-friendly because it has wheels; a bicycle doesnt have wheels because it is rider-friendly.

The truth speaks for itself, whether you choose to accept or not, Olodumare has no rival, nothing even comes close.

Meanwhile, you still havent answered my previous question, what is the French for Vavavoom?

Do you believe that the Almighty caters for all of mankind? There is not one piece of earth that Olodumare hasnt reached, be it in spirit or through people like me and you. I am in no doubt that all of human kind have been touched by the Most High, where ever you are from; in as much as it is part of the universe, dare i say even mars, mercury, saturn, jupiter not to mention our own earth. So, to your question, i cannot but convey to you the truth that which is every community in every state of every nation has at some point in their lifetime being given the direct motivation of Olodumare.

How we deal with it is up to us, some persecute their heroes, some stone them to death, some just call them weirdos but no matter how we deal with our liberators, good or bad, they just keep coming and coming and coming. We are the ones that are prone to fatigue or easily get fed up, but there are that  defy the laws of the physical realm, touched with the unwavering Glory of the Lord of the Heavens. Those that will never complain even when faced with horific trials and tribulation. The true unsung heroes that do their share and need not wait to receive unneccessary thanks.

In short, the Almighty reaches out to everyone, without bias, and has reached out to you and me in our own communities too. Look, look, look, see, see, see, there is no peoples that get special treatment, my heart yearns for understanding, i hunger no more because i know, yes i know that Olodumare IS for me and you and you and everyone else. Wakeup, we are slept and yet not fully awoken, we awake only to witness the Glory. It is, was and will always be,

thehomer:
No I do not describe myself as an atheist, I do not label myself at all.
The point of that sort of argument is to grant certain things to still demonstrate that the conclusion is still unsupported. So, that argument was just to demonstrate that even if one were to accept some sort of floating mind behind the universe, one cannot say how many they are.

Firstly, the thread is not meant to be a platform for some sort of conlusion that hasnt already been established.  Secondly,  if you dont believe that there is an Almighty being, then searching for answers towards such philosophy seems to me to be just as pointless as emptying the chamber of a loaded gun into ether and expecting to somehow hit a target.

And finaly, i ask you this,  do YOU conceed to the possibility of conscience?

thehomer:
Are deities not Gods?

Given that the title of this thread reads[b] Are Olodumare And "God/allah" The Same Entity/concept/word?[/b], then my reponse would be that it depends who you are asking, for me NO a deity isnt. When i refered to an Orisha being prone to be addresed as a deity, i was refering to dema-deity in particular.  In the spirit of repetition, there are Orisha and there are Orisha. Due to the lack of precise translation, it is acceptable to address a dema-deity as Orisha as it is  to one of the divinities. Yet in the basics of things, the term Orisha is reserved for the primordial entities; and if i may second guess your next question. In this context, is divinity not the same thing as the English notion of God? No it is not. What is the french for Vavavoom?

The nearest translation to Orisha would probably be as i suggested earlier, divinity, divine entitiy or simply a God.

I dont know the Esu you are refering to, but the Esu i know is Legba and is not a god but an Orisha, a God.

Maybe you are refering to Satani, if that is the case then i'm sure our in house xtians and muslims can tell you all you need to know about him.

Olodumare is not [b]a [/b]God because that would imply there are many. Olodumare IS the infinite state, the Almighty God.

thehomer: Huh? The concept of lesser Gods was not limited to Greek mythology. This concept was also present in various polytheistic religions. I don't see the misinterpretation you're claiming.

I'm afraid i will have to disagree, firstly the concept of lesser gods refers mainly to the Greek mythology as the relation between Zeus and other divinities e.g Zeus's brother Hades e.t.c. This does not fit in with the Yoruba theogany, Orisha in no way or form aspires to be such in qualification. In a sense i think it is a case of lost in translation. If i'm not mistaken, the translation to the term "lesser gods" reads as "awon god kekere"; now to suggest that is indeed laughable, not to say quite offensive.

Moreover, it would not suprise me if this notion actualy was born out of our(mankind) to try an equate ourselves with the Almighty. For instance, i've heard instances of this particular kind of language being used: Do you know Edson Arantes do Nascimento is a football god?. Now do you see what i'm getting at. It stems from this type of thought process.

The nearest translation to Orisha would probably be as i suggested earlier, divinity divine entitiy or simply a God.

Hmm! fixate!? expand i dont get it.

Every action has an almost equal and opposite reaction

Hmm! this is a slipery slope. A loaded question imho; for me, one cannot overcome wrong doing as one cannot overcome ones own self. They say "wrong-doing" and "doing what is right" are both natural phenomena that are constantly chasing mankind forever more. That which cannot be contested is the Glory of the Almighty. So, trying to overcome wrong-doing or wrong-doers is in my opinion a perfect waste of valuable time.

Ask yourself this, do you know when an act is considered to be "right" or "wrong"? If you do,  then put it into practise and lend your thoughts to your peers; thats pretty much all you need to navigate this place we call mother Earth.  If you dont, then seek counseling from those who claim they do. Master the essence of these two great companions (and yet unconnected in value) and you've cracked it.

@ dare2think: i hardly think that those that fall into this category have a label stucked to their foreheads for one to pinpoint in the first place. Even if they do, theyre the ones that would probably tell u to take back your money thankyou very much.

lagerwhenindoubt:
^^^ That loaf of bread had to be one inconsiderate fascists not to make any attempt at dodging the puddle knowing full well that it can result in cataclysmic conflagration for either Individual A or Individual B.

lol

I have no problem about the notion of "means to an end", hence have no problem with the notion of there being Heaven. However, my main concern is the concerns of many that build there spirituality around the "ends" rather than the "means to". Am i making any sense?

Let me make an attempt to explain, basically the golden rule of the majority of religions is based around "virtue(s)" yet this seems to be subordinate relative to the notion of getting to the "end product". As in, if  anyone person maintains righteousness mainly for the resons that he/she will one day be propelled into an everlasting realm then such righteousness has been obtained and not truly earned. This is to say, if for a split second the notion of  there being a heaven as a "reward" for being of good behaviour is false, would YOU be prepared to continue in your good ways? If the answer to this is NO, then it is here that the problem realy lies.

For me righteosness is all about being good just because you can, the buzz one gets from seeing a happy face is worth more than a million in any currency.

Alright! There were two individuals that both brought a loaf of bread at two different vendors at approximately the same time. Lets say this is hypothetical; individual A and individual B.

Individual A was walking home in delight, had just brought a loaf of bread to share with family for breakfast and all of a sudden someone brushes past him and the loaf falls into a muddy puddle. Individual A is now full of rage and chases the culprit down ending up beating the person senselss.

Individual B was walking home in delight, had just brought a loaf of bread to share with family for breakfast and all of a sudden someone brushes past him and the loaf falls into a muddy puddle. Individual B is now full of rage but stops to think and decides to turn around, go home empty handed and explain to the family his ordeal.

Now lets stop right here.

Would you blame the loaf of bread for the actions of either of these individuals or the individuals themselves?

Can we find 10000+ righteous Nigerians? YES!

midascon:
I av a serious financial problem any help?

Yoruba say: "Ise logun Ise" Ise ko ni je ti e o =  Work is the cure for Want.  This is the basic understanding, and this has never changed in meaning. However you may want to consult with Ifa for closer analysis you particularly. I pray Ifa will smile upon you; Ifa will smile upon us all.

Aboru Ibosise

Pastor AIO:
Please who is this reading for.  Which Ori was the divination divined on.  Is it an individual?  Is it a nation?  Is a a house of Orisa, or a house of Ifa?  Or is a just random - who the cap fits let him wear it?

Indeed! Osetetete, Iretetete,

OBAONIMOLE:
• IFA says we should betray.

Thankyou for this touching piece, Ifa a gbe wa o, Orunmila a gbe wa.

Meanwhile, should this not read: Ifa says we should NOT betray? Because we dont want  minors on NL to be getting mixed messages.

Agbo Ato

Pastor AIO:
I didn't know that people eat anointing oil. I don't want to die from cholesterol just because I want to get anointed o!

rofl! i dont know about the philosophy behind anointing altogether but having said that using oil palm seems much more REAL to me as this product is readily available. just hope the commercialist arent peeping at this thread because they'll be realy sick to not be able to sell to us there unneccessary products. Its a case of demand and supply; they make us think we need it and then once they've achieved that, sell it to us at exhorbitant prices.

Hmm! actualy you need Orunmila imho