₦airaland Forum

gamechange:
@anonimi

By carefully investing in appropriate financial vehicles over 30 years should provide enough wealth.

ordinarily yes and that is what happened in naija until the mid/late 70s.
But not anymore with the vast majority of naija workers because the monthly salary cannot even take you to month end for basics of food, shelter & clothing.
This feeds corruption and the twisted philosophy starting in the 80s of "if you can't beat them, join them". 20 years on & the results are glaring for all to see- dilapidated infrastructures, unemployment, crimes etc.

To be candid, the assets he acquired would probably have taken a diligent and honest employee a lifetime to achieve.

@ poster,
Most likely not.
Compute the total salary of a 35 year career starting as a fresh graduate leading to the highest position of GMD, NNPC and compare with the value of assets to see if indeed a diligent and honest employee can achieve it in his lifetime.
Don't forget the guy also has to pay taxes, if he is diligent and honest- Give unto Caesar,
Now you may know why naija is importing fuel despite its crude oil deposits and multiple refineries with $billions spent on TAMs- Turn Around Maintanance.
Next time you see a queue and/or the high cost of petrol, you have one contributor's address at least.

My problem is why does he think that was God's doing, why does he believe it was God's intention for him to be in a position where he can corruptly enrich himself.

Worry not my brother it is called breakthrough, divine intervention, without necessarily working/being productive or adding value to your society that is being preached in MOST naija churches.
And na so we go contineu dey hail them rather than condemn their misdeeds that affects us all- big and small as you can see here
And by the way, you must have heard or read the prophecy that naija go soon better to the next level even as we continue these acts of societal-destruction .

showbobo:
I think this is just the height of it all. . . . . 

In a situation like that you find the innocent suffering because of the misdeeds of a handful of people.”

someone should remind him that 140m people are in darkness  & unemployed because his close friend, OBJ used our $16b to purchase blackout.

showbobo:
He also regretted government’s seizure of schools from religious institutions, saying the forceful take-over has contributed to the current rot in the society.

His words: “The church used to be the educator. All the schools were run by missions, at least most of them. Only few were government colleges, like King’s College. In the olden days, in the morning, before you go to classes, you pray, somebody in the school will say a word or two about God. But they threw God out of schools when they took the schools away from the missionaries. The children come to church once a week now, but they are in school five days a week. If we really want things to get back to normal, we have to restore things the way they were in the olden days.

anyone knows how much fees charged in RCCG schools vis-a-vis average salary today compared to how much mission schools charged "in the olden days" compared to average salaries 40-30 years ago? can someone please lead by example here? how many of RCCG pastors can send their kids to RCCG schools based on the salaries paid by the church? or maybe only rich kids need God in their schools today?

showbobo:
“When we talk about the family also failing, in the olden days, many a time the father would earn enough to feed the entire family. Now, papa would work, mama must work, so there is little time left for parents to look after their children. So when we are looking at corruption as a very big monster, it has several roots and we must go to the root of it, not just cut off the branches and expect that the end of the story will come. We must go deep.”

when was the last time you heard in RCCG (or other naija pentecostals) any sermon about the morality of paying a decent & timely living wage to workers rather than just amassing wealth and displaying it to get the attention of the church leader?

Spot any similarities between MoGs and politicians?

Getting some education and inolved at the LG level may be another starting point to the change we say we desire.
Check this out.

@anonimi,


Quote from: anonimi on Yesterday at 04:35:21 PM
It seems you missed my response eons ago here

Thanks - and that was why I pointed out this also, from where Yomi got his thoughts from.

Pilgrim.1,

does the above mean that you knew I responded long ago and yet you wrote:

Quote from: pilgrim.1 on Yesterday at 02:45:35 PM
@anonimi,

I wasn't missing anything - unless you want me to bore you with the links where I made the case lucid. You guys started out by directly referring to tithes as a 'lie', 'false doctrine', and a 'fraud'. I asked simply that we look away from those who have abused it and encourage ourselves to look into the Word to see what it says. Did you ever oblige that? What was your response to that other than come back reposting Yomisays and his ungodly attack and pretentions of Adeboye? I asked you directly if Yomisays represented your views - you have forever ducked that one and now claiming I was not paying attention all along. What is your question again, dear brother?

Please clarify before I comment further.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=272.msg2941565#msg2941565 date=1223991935]@anonimi,

I wasn't missing anything - unless you want me to bore you with the links where I made the case lucid. You guys started out by directly referring to tithes as a 'lie', 'false doctrine', and a 'fraud'. I asked simply that we look away from those who have abused it and encourage ourselves to look into the Word to see what it says. Did you ever oblige that? What was your response to that other than come back reposting Yomisays and his ungodly attack and pretentions of Adeboye? I asked you directly if Yomisays represented your views - you have forever ducked that one and now claiming I was not paying attention all along. What is your question again, dear brother? [/quote]It seems you missed my response eons ago here

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=272.msg2942026#msg2942026 date=1223997051]@FifiO,
Sista, the Levites had no income whatsoever! How many times did God emphasize that very point, lest we run ahead of ourselves? Here are examples:

          Numbers 18:20
          Numbers 18:23 & 24
          Deuteronomy 14:27

If they had no inheritance among the children of Israel, from where do we suppose their "income" to be got? If they labour for wages in the temple, they would not need to take anything from the children of Israel in that case. Yes, they lived off the service of the temple (see 1 Cor. 9:13); but that is not what Scripture regards as "income", unless for the sake of argument we just want to read it so. The problems will surface later if we do.[/quote]Can you check out the difference between assets and income?
Fifio clearly stated that the tithes paid by the Israelites to the levites could be considered as income for the purpose of their (levites) tithe payment. Apparently the levites were not payying their tithes properly hence the curse on them in Malachi starting from chapter 1.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=272.msg2940730#msg2940730 date=1223982462]That's not the issue, FifiO. Those who don't believe in tithing have said very sad things about tithing and tithers - that's the issue. If antagonists have simply shared that it is only a matter of liberty, this thread would have passed on. Why refer to tithers as thieves, manipulators, fraudsters, etc just to prove that they do not believe in tithing? <skip>despite the fact that those of us who tithe have been saying for ages that it is NOT compulsory?[/quote]It seems you are the one missing the point all this while and that explains why you have been going on & on saying the same thing over and over again.
Go through all the posts of those of us opposed to preachers (in partcular) and others in general who tell those they are in a position to influence that tithes are compulsory/obligatory/required/obedience to God/carries a curse if not done (or blessing if done).
Without mincing words and with all seriousness, any preacher who says such a thing is a fraudulent person, no matter how many miracles he claims to perform in Christ's name.
I hope the distinction is clear enough for you now.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=272.msg2927936#msg2927936 date=1223730037]@anonimi,

The point is that it does not appear to me that he was driving for a 10% to be given every single time; and the reason why I feel that way is because of this line in that same reposte you quote from:

          _______________________________________________________________
            [size=14pt]"[/size]You give your tithes not because you hope to prosper in return, but in true
            obedience to him and his work. There are people give much more to God;
            God doesn't need my blessings i am the one that needs his hands. >snip<
            Tithing is not compulsory, giving is not compulsory, but you can't love
            without giving. If we claim we love God, our tithes shouldn't be a big deal.
            God so loved us that he gave his son to die for us.[size=14pt]"[/size]
          _______________________________________________________________

If you feel I had misread him, that;s okay. I just thought that it was unwise to have missed his summary and assumed he was one of those who come under your fire of 'fraud'.

Regards all the same. [/quote]Once again, may I ask you to read what you posted above PLEASE?
In one breath you agree with sleekymag "it does not appear to me that he was driving for a 10% to be given every single time" yet you go on to highlight his " You give your tithes <skip> in true obedience to him (God) and his work, There are people give much more to God; "
Ask yourself, how can one corellate your and his agreement that one needs not give 10% or any % for that matter everytime with a later assertion that tithe giving is in obedience to God (thus suggesting mandatory nature) and make reference to people actually giving more thus establishing 10% as the least threshold
We all agree that giving is part of Christianity, no doubt about that.
The question we disagree on is how much/who to/when to. These details are necessary in the light of how much abuse can be wrapped thereinto. Meanwhile the giving for CHRISTians as prescribed in the NT has no compulsion to it.
Hence, anyone no matter his claimed level of annointing who compels people overtly or subtly is trying to obtain money through falsehood/pretence and is no different from a 419 crook. QED.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=272.msg2927955#msg2927955 date=1223730415]@anonimi,

Certainly, everyone is free to post whatever; however, I wonder if by doing so here, you're sending a message to readers that Yomi's article represents your thoughts precisely? There are a few issues which I would like to highlight, though; but if Yomi is saying something differently from what you would have said, then it would be nice to know as well.

Cheers.[/quote]Precisely is too exact a word to use under any circumstance. I would rather say I generally agree with the thoughts he expressed in the article and will encourage you to read the Bible passages referred to in full context.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=272.msg2927666#msg2927666 date=1223725092]@anonimi,

It appears you did not seek to even understand sleekmag before arriving at your opinions. Perhaps it could be that you were only interested in seeking out just where you might find something to complain about, and that is why you did not even bother to read his thoughts collectively.[/quote]I only understand too well his stating the ovbvious that tithe even in the old testament has no correlation with what is being done today in the first part highlighted yet he goes on, in the next sentence, just as you have been doing on this thread to state something contrary to his earlier biblical quote. Maybe you are the one who needs to re-read his post.

I believe it might be useful at this time to re-introduce this drama sketch, that covers most of the issues in this tithe fraud that continues unabated in our churches.
------------------------------------------------------------

As a sequel to my last article debunking Mr. Enoch Adejare Adeboye’s claims about tithing, Believers are not subject to the Tithe, I hereby present a court scenario in which the General Overseer of the Redeemed Christian Church of God stands before the Great Judge of all the earth, the Lord Jesus Christ, on this subject. Enjoy the conversation:

Jesus: Enoch, you have been charged with multiple counts of extortion. Your crime spree covers 20 years and thousands of victims. You have defrauded people out of their money with fear and manipulation, telling them they had to tithe 10% of their income to your church and that God would bless them if they did. You also told them that if they didn’t tithe they would go to hell. How do you plead?

Pastor Enoch: I plead not guilty, sir. I have done nothing wrong. I have only preached what the Bible says. In the Bible Abraham tithed to Melchizedek and God blessed him for his faithful giving. The Bible even says he was rich in silver and gold.

Jesus: Is it not true, Enoch, that in Genesis chapter 13 verse 2 the Bible says Abraham was rich with livestock, silver and gold?

Pastor Enoch: Yes, you are exactly right, that’s what I just told you.

Jesus: Ok, we read about Abraham being a rich man in chapter 13. But it is not until Genesis chapter 14 that we read about Abraham’s tithe to Melchizedek. So Abraham was already a rich man before he tithed to Melchizedek, wasn’t he?

Pastor Enoch: Yes, I suppose you are right.

Jesus: So his riches were not the result of his tithe to Melchizedek?

Pastor Enoch: No.

Jesus: Enoch, you also say God blessed him for his faithful giving. How many times is it recorded that Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek?

Pastor Enoch: Well, just once.

Jesus: So the Bible never said that he gave week after week?

Pastor Enoch: No; it does not.

Jesus: Where did Abraham get the things that he gave to Melchizedek?

Pastor Enoch: Well, the Bible says it was from the plunders of war.

Jesus: So you are telling me that he gave from the plunders of war?

Pastor Enoch: Yes that’s what the Bible says.

Jesus: So he basically took things that were not really his in the first place and gave them as the tithe?

Pastor Enoch: That is what the scripture seems to indicate.

Jesus: Is it recorded that he ever took anything from his own possessions and tithed them to Melchizedek or anyone else?

Pastor Enoch: I guess not

Jesus: You guess not! You pastor one of the largest denominations on the planet and you are only guessing? Is it or is it not written that he ever gave any of his own possessions as a tithe to anyone?

Pastor Enoch: No; it is not written anywhere that I have seen.

Jesus: Is it recorded as to what exactly Abraham did give Melchizedek?

Pastor Enoch: I believe it says plunder?

Jesus: So plunder could be any number of things?

Pastor Enoch: Yes, I suppose.

Judge: It could have been food, cattle, sheep, the people’s possessions or any number of things. It does not say it was all money; correct?

Pastor Enoch: Yes; sir. You are correct; it does not say just money.

Jesus: As a matter of fact, money is never mentioned in that account at all; is that correct, Enoch?

Pastor Enoch: Yes, sir; money is never mentioned; just goods and food and people.

Jesus: So there is no way you can say with any certainty that Abraham in fact gave Melchizedek any money at all?

Pastor Enoch: That is right.

Jesus: I only have one last question for you, Enoch. Did God command Abraham to give this plunder as tithe to Melchizedek?

Pastor Enoch: No; it appears that he did this voluntarily.

Jesus: So are you trying to tell me that because of this voluntary, one time gift by Abraham, that may not have even consisted of money, all Christians everywhere are obligated to bring 10% of their monthly salary to a local church?

Jesus: Considering all the evidence, I would say you are beyond any shadow of a doubt guilty of deliberately trying to make the scriptures says things they have not said for financial gain.

Pastor Enoch: Sir, I can see how foolish I was to try and use the story of Melchizedeck to try and get the people to tithe money. But there are many other verses that will support my belief on tithing. Jacob said he would give God 10% of everything. I think we should follow his example.

Jesus: Let’s see what Jacob said. Please read the verse you are talking about for me, Enoch.

Pastor Enoch: In Genesis chapter 28, starting at verse 20 it says, ‘Jacob vowed a vow, saying, “If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and clothing to put on, so that I come again to my father’s house in peace, and Yahweh will be my God, then this stone, which I have set up for a pillar, will be God’s house. Of all that you will give me I will surely give the tenth to you.”‘

Jesus: You said people should follow Jacobs’s example, is that right, Enoch?

Pastor Enoch: Yes; that is right. He vowed to give a tenth and we should too.

Jesus: Let me point out one thing for you, Enoch. Jacob said he would Give God a tenth, ONLY if He blessed him first. So as you said previously, we should follow Jacob’s example and tell God that we will only give him a tenth if he blesses us first. Is that right?

Pastor Enoch: That is not what I meant.

Jesus: What did you mean then?

Pastor Enoch: That we should give God a tenth also.

Jesus: There you go again, trying to make the scripture say what you want it to say for your benefit. I would also like you to tell me the scriptures that say that Jacob kept his vow with God. I would also like to know where he gave the tenth to because there was no temple or levites to give it to at that time.

Pastor Enoch: I can not think of any scriptures that say where or if he ever tithed after his vow.

Jesus: It is obvious that Jacob made a voluntary and conditional vow to God. This in no way can be used as a reason to demand others to bring their income to you or any other place.

Pastor Enoch: I do have a few more scriptures that I believe will show that we are supposed to tithe.

Jesus: So far, all you have done is taken scripture and misapplied it to your beliefs and for your gain. But in order to be fair to you I will allow you to present more evidence.

Pastor Enoch: In the book of Malachi chapter 3 starting at verse 8 it says, “Will a man rob God? yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, In what have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. Bring ye all the tithes into the store-house, that there may be food in my house, and prove me now with this, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.” So you see sir, we are commanded to bring the tithes into the storehouse or God will curse us.

Jesus: Answer me this, Enoch, were you aware that I never required anyone to tithe money?

Pastor Enoch: No I didn’t know that.

Jesus: The tithe spoken of here was always edible products never money.

Pastor Enoch: Sir, that is because they didn’t have money at the time so God had them tithe food instead.

Jesus: Not true, money is first mentioned in Genesis - and Malachi was written hundreds of years later. God had them bring food in so that the levites, the fatherless and widows may eat and be satisfied. The tithe was used mainly to take care of people. Also notice it says in the verse you quoted, that there may be food in my house. How do you completely overlook the word food in those verses?

Pastor Enoch: I don’t know.

Jesus: I also want you to know that these verses speak to people under the Old Testament law. As you may or may not know, I fulfilled the law while I was on earth. The Law is no longer binding. Tithing was part of that law that has been abolished.

Jesus: And once again, you have tried to completely take a scripture out of context and apply it to others for your benefit. Can you give me a single scripture where God changed the tithe from food to money?

Pastor Enoch: I do not know of any.

Jesus: So if God never changed it from food to money who did?

Pastor Enoch: Man must have.

Jesus: So far all you have done, Enoch, is take Old Testament scriptures out of context and try to apply it to believers under the New Covenant. Is this all the proof you have?

Pastor Enoch: I do have a New Testament scripture that will show that You told us to tithe.

Jesus: Ok; let me hear it.

Pastor Enoch: You said in Matthew 23:23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cumin, and have left undone the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith. But you ought to have done these, and not to have left the other undone.” Surely, You were saying there that we should be tithing.

Jesus: Let me ask you a question, who was I talking to in that passage?

Pastor Enoch: The scripture says the scribes and Pharisees.

Jesus: Are you and your members scribes or Pharisees?

Pastor Enoch: No sir; God forbid!.

Jesus: I also said in that passage, “You have left undone the weightier matters of the law“. Are we under the law, Enoch?

Pastor Enoch: No.

Jesus: Why not?

Pastor Enoch: Because You fulfilled it, and it passed away.

Jesus: When did I fulfill the law?

Pastor Enoch: When You were crucified.

Jesus: So the law was still in effect until My death?

Pastor Enoch: That is correct sir.

Jesus: I think you know where I am going with this; don’t you?

Pastor Enoch: Yes; sir. Since You had not yet been crucified and the law was still binding, the Pharisees were required to tithe because it was part of the law. Once the law ended, tithing ended also.

Jesus: I want you to take a look at that verse again. Also tell me, what were they tithing?

Pastor Enoch: The scripture says it was mint, dill and cumin.

Jesus: Was money mentioned there?

Pastor Enoch: No sir; it was not.

Jesus: Once again it was edible products that they were tithing, not money. Do you have anything else you would like to say?

Pastor Enoch: If people only tithed edible products like the scripture says, then how would the church survive? We had to build that million-seater cathedral to accomodate the people who come for Holy Ghost Festival yearly, the salaries of other pastors have to be paid. So many other things. We depend on the money from the people.

Jesus: The need does not justify the means. In other words, just because you have all these debts does not give you the right to twist and manipulate scripture and cause people to give under fear of being cursed by God to meet your needs. Not to mention that all those items you listed are problems you created for yourelves. They are not My agenda. You were pursuing your agenda.

Jesus: Now to the more greivous consequences of your enforcing the tithe on believer. What did Paul write in Galatians 5:4 about attempting to follow the Law?

Pastor Enoch: That if they obeyed any part of the old Jewish law, including the law of circumcision, in order to be right (justified) with God, they have fallen from grace, or lost their salvation.

Jesus: Do you admit that like circumcision, tithing was part of the law?

Pastor Enoch: Yes, sir.

Jesus: Now if obeying the law of circumcision would cause gentile Christians of Paul’s day to “fall from grace”, one would have to conclude that obeying another old law; “The law of tithing” would have the same results on them today; that is to say, it will cause them to fall away from the grace of God.

Pastor Enoch: [Swallows hard] I suppose so.

Jesus: In other words, you are admitting that your teaching the tithe is actually sending people down the road to hell?

Pastor Enoch: That was not what I intended, sir.

Jesus: Nevertheless, that is the result of your actions - your ministry. How many of those one billion members (not counting the non-members who heard you and believed you) do you suppose have been turned aside unknowingly this way?

Pastor Enoch: [Swallows hard] I have no idea, sir.

Pastor Enoch: I never realized all these things, I have always been taught that we had to tithe money to the local church and that is what I have always taught. Yes I am guilty. I will not teach this error anymore. Infact, I will go and take my words back. As many people as possible must hear this.

THE END
I have given the narration a good ending. I hope that someone close to Mr. Adeboye loves him enough and has enough balls to bring this issue to his attention. You will be saving not only his soul but the souls of millions of others who believe his grace-defying, grace-denying doctrine of tithing.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Credits:
This narration was crafted and adapted from my previous article, Believers are not subject to the Tithe, and from materials put up at http://tithing.christian-things.com/articles.html

Source: The Trial

sleekymag:
or follow Deut 14:22-29 where the tither ate part of his tithe with members of his family, then gave a portion of it to the less privilege and the levite (pastor),

This does not correlate with what followed from you in the same response:

sleekymag:
What is 10% that's too much to give God everytime?

Maybe you should pause for a while and gather your thoughts clearly to stop further muddling trying to justify the unjustifiable for CHRISTians.

(d) For instance, sarmy asked me a pointed question about using Malachi 3 to force[/color] people to tithe. I shared with him why my answer is NO; and opened up a few reasons why I don't think anyone is correct to curse any Christian. It is not in my place to castigate any pastor who does this - because by castigating them, I am doing the very same thing for which I accuse them!

pilgrim.1,

would you be kind enough to distinguish between forcing someone to do something and telling the person he is required to do it, where the person giving the instruction is in a position of authority over the other?

(e) I think it is more helpful for people to simply share, debate healthily, avoid uncouth accusations against anyone, and contribute questions that constructively critique our submissions. If this is not helpful, pilgrim.1 is not in the habit of castigating any pastor; for it is not in my place to judge anything before that time when Christ will do so (1 Cor. 4:5).

Have you considered very seriously 1 John 4 v. 1:
[i]Beloved, believe not every spirit, but [color=#990000]try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.[/[/b]i]

There are similar injuctions in the Bible. You can see [b]Criticise Not
I would rather obey God's word rather than shy away from "castigating" a pastor dpeddling falsehood for the sake of mammon. I hope you remember God's wrath on disobedience in King Saul's case, despite his lame excuse of wanting to offer sacrifice and that of Jonah.
Stay blessed.

pilgrim.1,

I think you have, in your recent responses, moved away from the question of whether tithes are obligatory or not and using Biblical references that encourage giving in general terms to God's work and ministers to give cover to those who are tithe-mongers.
I detect from your earlier submissions that you realise tithes are not required of Christians, we are to give as we freely want to and that may be 100% of income and even assets in some instances based on what revelation the individual has received directly from God just as was the case of the widow of Zarephat. Please note that this is different from whan a pastor says somone will receive financial miracle if he gives 100%, in a congregation of two or more people- that is fraud.
I also perceive that lately you are taking this as a competition of sorts that you can and should win. Unfortunately by so doing you may be leaving yourself open to misrepresenting Christ whom you set out to uphold. I beseech you my dear siter to tread carefully and reflect fully on what you write and what these 419 pastors may do with it.
Shalom.

poster,

have u tried to google your subject?

pilgrim.1

Thanks for your response to my query. I will try it once i'm less busy and you will surely see the results here.

I don't think I argued about the "principle". May I say this one more time?!? If anyone has been re-iterating anything about the "PRINCIPLE", at least you should know that I have been doing so!! Even lately, I stated it yet again (here please).

pilgrim.1

how do you do the link wrap as above? Thanks.

The role of religion
By Aghogho Ekpruke

ANYONE as concerned as I am about the pathetic state of underdevelopment in Nigeria will be willing to at least listen to any theory whatsoever that postulates possible factors responsible for this situation. Any theory whatsoever. You will therefore appreciate my interest in Mr. Rotimi Babatunde's write-up on page 79 of The Guardian newspapers on June 25. He titled it: "How Religion is underdeveloping Nigeria".

As is usual with most write-ups on the opinion page of The Guardian, Mr. Babatunde's was quite a piece. It was a beautiful blend of useful education, fine articulation, blunt criticism and undisguised confrontation among others. In his thinking (which I expect to be a product of a continuous process of empirical enquiries considering his seeming advocacy for scientific methods), religion is under-developing Nigeria. Religion is lurking within the premises of why Nigeria has a poorly equipped public health care system, poorly equipped laboratories, bad motor ways, ineffective traffic policing, etc. But teaching its followers to pray to God to "descend in his full glory and solve our personal and national problems" instead of teaching them to demand for these amenities, religion is underdeveloping Nigeria.

Religion is somehow connected to the reason why our public office holders past and present including the one who just bagged a degree in religious studies (sorry; theology) "loot our treasuries and commit atrocious human rights abuses". Wow! Mr. Religion must be quite a culprit. But that's not all. Now we know why Nigeria has consistently been rated one of the most corrupt countries. Religion, of course. By "placing tags of miracle on sudden acquired wealth" instead of asking questions, religion encourages corruption. I guess religion or religious organisations (or maybe both) are supposed to adequately investigate the source of every donation they are willing to accept. And lest I forget religion discourages open-mindedness and opposes science. For all these reasons, religion is underdeveloping Nigeria.

This I perceive, is the basis for Mr. Babatunde's argument or why else would he have given it such a title? Obviously he is disgusted with religion. He was so angry he didn't even spare Mr. Fasugba who should have known better than give a rather "anti-scientific" response to Mr. Awoyokun's piece which by the way is the genesis of this controversy(?). A controversy which seems to have metamorphosed from a debate on science vs. religion to "How Religion is under-developing the world" sorry Africa, I mean Nigeria (I guess we are to take it that the developed nations of the world don't engage in religion, hence their development). Now before I go on to show how Mr. Babatunde's argument flies in the face of reason, let me separate the wheat from the chaff.

In a way, Mr. Babatunde's piece makes for what some would call "food for thought". Although he wasn't able to as much as go near proving that religion is underdeveloping Nigeria, there is a more reasonable perspective from which we can analyse his argument. His submission is pregnant with subtle questions that are begging for answers from the leaders and followers of our countries numerous religious denominations that are constantly increasing by geometric proportions. Some of these questions are: how has religion helped in the development of the Nigerian nation? Or better put, what positive contributions has religion brought Nigeria? Isn't it an irony that while we boast of such a large religious population that can frighten even the real religious nations of the world, we yet maintain a first class reputation for wrong and wicked deeds some of which are perpetrated by the same religious people? You only need take a glance at the sizable chunk of our nation's budget that is voted annually for religious programmes at federal and state levels to infer that Nigeria is a religious state, still we have repeatedly broken the world record for corruption. Could it be that the vast majority of religious Nigerians are hypocrites? (Maybe).

Taking this further why is it only few of our religious leaders who have openly criticised the wrongs of our political leaders choosing instead to remain silent? And why oh why, for heavens' sake do people in the name of religion create hardship and pain for their fellow men as is the case of the Lagos-Ibadan expressway whenever the churches situated along that route gather? Why are some churches so poor at events management? Could it be that they lack the requisite wisdom and capacity to effectively and efficiently organise, conduct and manage their activities and programmes in such a way that would make them a model to even secular organisations? Mr. Babatunde may have gone off point in his argument but an unbiased judgment would at least concede that a fraction of his outburst is justified don't you think?

In a way this is a wake up call to religious organisations all over the country, especially to the churches as the "loud undertone" of Mr. Babatunde's write-up made it clear which religion he is really referring to. As a Christian I feel challenged. It was Martin Luther King (Jnr.) who said that "religion should be to the society what the thermostat is to the electric pressing iron" and I agree. Religion should play a functional role in society in a way that enhances its development to the acknowledgment of all including the atheists. I therefore urge my fellow brethren to be more sensitive in their dealings with their fellow men and society at large. And a good start would be the correction of the "Lagos-Ibadan expressway ill" and other cases of poor church programme organisation be it in street corners, residential areas or wherever. This is as far as I can go with the merits of this case. Having done that, let's go on to fault it.

The fundamental problem with his write-up is the glaring disharmony of the text and the title. Whereas he was quick to exaggerating religion's emphasis on prayers, highlighting the flamboyant lifestyle of some pastors, insisting that religion and science are in opposition, reminding us of how prelates of the mediaeval church burnt scientists for their open-mindedness, tongue-lashed Mr. Fasugba among many others, he failed to address the fundamental issue which he raised which was: how religion is underdeveloping Nigeria. He failed to show how the practice of religion in Nigeria has resulted in the lack of standard social amenities and infrastructures. Reading his write-up made me wonder whether he understands the concept of development/underdevelopment as it applies to a nation. If Mr. Babatunde insists that religion is underdeveloping Nigeria then he should come up with a more objective argument.

Secondly, Mr. Babatunde seems to be condemning religion from a narrow point of view and this should not be the case. Is it not wrong to condemn religion based on the excesses of bigots and extremists, the hypocrisy, ignorance and imperfections of its apologists, and acts of the like of Rev. King? Granted that people commit evils in the name of religion but does that justify its outright condemnation? Even common sense prescribes that we isolate the principle of an idea from the process or practice of that idea in order to make correct judgment. The acts for which Mr. Babatunde is condemning religion are not the only acts for which religion is known and they are definitely not acts that religion promotes. I think it is necessary to highlight some of the activities of churches. Activities which even Mr. Babatunde will agree deflate his bogus claim.

Churches have been involved in community development programmes (since we are talking about underdevelopment). These include the provision of food, pipe-borne water and clothing to communities, provision of free and subsidised treatment of sicknesses and diseases, building and equipping of clinics and hospitals, building, renovation and funding of academic institutions, donation of materials to the police, including economically empowering its members through loan. Mr. Babatunde needs to know that some standard schools and hospitals are owned by the very orgnisations he calls the "bastions of the crude tendency to ignorance".

I dare say that even he has been affected directly or indirectly by the positive development programmes of religious organisations. At least someone either in his nuclear or extended family, ancestral lineage or line of friends, associates or colleagues must have been a product of a missionary school or a patient of a hospital affiliated to a church. Mr. Babatunde may have been right in some ways but he is wrong even more. I hope he comes to terms with this.

Finally on the debate between science and religion, I think people miss the point. Although, it is true that science and religion are quite different from each other, it is wrong to draw differences as though comparing between a computer and typewriter. They are different tools with different assignments. Science relies on man's, intelligence while religion deals with faith and intuition. Whereas science is guided by logical permutations and calculations that are restricted to the five known senses of the human mind, deep men (and this include scientists) understand that there is more to life than the human mind can define, explain or even perceive, beyond what scientific laboratories can contain, hence religion.
Both science and religion can be useful to man where and when correctly explored, the mistakes of religious extremists or the scientific theory that men are the grandchildren of apes, notwithstanding. This artificial battle between science and religion is quite unnecessary. We should instead concern ourselves with more productive activities that can help develop Nigeria which by the way is one way where both science and religion can shake hands.


Ekpruke is an alumnus of the Federal University of Technology, Minna.

Source: http://www.guardiannewsngr.com/editorial_opinion/article02//indexn2_html?pdate=061008&ptitle=The%20role%20of%20religion

hope you really enjoyed your trip and got some unusual but potentially useful education also.
these are basically beautiful concepts/pictures/buildings and are being used for chalets and safari lodges in East Africa where tourism is their main revenue earner.
for naija we no get time for relax, na to chase money from monday to sunday. owambes for saturdays na to make or sustain connections (read breakthrough) and same goes for friday mosque and sunday church business, so no time to rest = greater stress related diseases and younger deaths. even when people go UK or US for summer na mainly to do shopping to show-off sey dem get kudi pass dem neighbour.
if & when we have a viable middle class whose legitimate income can ensure quality lifestyle then such mud chalet resort concepts may re-emerge and feed into bigger, regular family structures.
funny enough, i read somewhere that these mud houses ensure cooler temperature inside the house than cement.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=272.msg2893431#msg2893431 date=1223123367]@anonimi,

Since you're only reposting Yomi's argument against his own vexations, I should treat accordingly.

'Now concerning the collection for the saints,
as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.'
[1 Corinthians 16:1].[/quote]I am sure you do not equate the saints to God or do you

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=272.msg2893431#msg2893431 date=1223123367]The Bible does not call tithing a "lie". Those who use their over-zealous sanctimony to accuse the Word of what it does not say need to go back and read it for what it says.[/quote]I notice you conveniently skipped responding to my earlier post on verse 12 of Hebrews 7 and the importance of Christ's fulfilling work vis-a-vis the OT laws, including that of tithes which was operational until His death and ressurection. Still thinking about what response to spin

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=272.msg2893431#msg2893431 date=1223123367]1 Corinthians 9:13-14
"Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things
live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at
the altar are partakers with the altar?
Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which
preach the gospel should live of the gospel."

Even when God ordained it in the NEW TESTAMENT, men will argue every which way to refuse and reject it. The simple thing is that it is one of the things the Lord ORDAINED in the NT, but He will not force it upon anyone to bend their necks to it.[/quote]I believe it is also clear enough in your above quote that what you give is for those who minister and NOT God as the 419, fraudsters would want us to believe and put people in a guilt trap. You should check your other NT quotes to ascertain if the people were asked to give/gave to God or Jesus Christ specifically and not to fellow brethren in need as well as minister's basic needs (as opposed to luxury).

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=272.msg2893431#msg2893431 date=1223123367]'For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God:
but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.' [Luke 21:4][/quote]There are at least two things about the above quote.
First, you realise that burnt offerings/sacrifices were being offered to God under the OT and it was precisely the Levites who were offering bad quality sacrifices at His altar that the rebuke in Malachi was principally addressed to. You should read Malachi from Chapter 1 please. Thus the "offerings of God" should be understood in that context before Christ fulfilled the law as pointed out earlier with His ultimate and final sacrifice.
Secondly, Christ was teaching a key principle about giving, which is that it is not the absolute amount you give that matters but how it relates with your capacity to give, hence the widow was praised while the rich man was scolded. This same tenet is stated in Proverbs 11:24 "There is that scattereth, and yet increaseth; and there is that withholdeth more than is meet, but it tendeth to poverty."

I hope you do understand that I and others who oppose requiring/requesting tithes of CHRISTians do not oppose giving to church activities so long as they are in line with the teachings, practice and standard set by Christ and his Apostles as recorded in the NT.
Shalom.

Obalende:
very interesting thoughts here people.

this very good.

"their standard of morals and their level of integrity is much higher than ours." [from last post]
this is generalisation - and untrue - i would say we have the same capacity for immoral behaviour.

same capacity, yes; same actual display of such capacity, no.
you need to check the statistics, which feeds perceptions hence stereotypes about groups of people to understand the difference.
there is greater law & order in these societies and greater probability to receive a just reward for work done , which are core religious/moral tenets, than in our holy spirit-filled country hence most people including the looters who parade themselves as leaders rush there to cool off and hide our money or seek better opportunities. For some that route is lined with almost certain death in the Sahara or the ocean.
A case of "in the abundance of water the fool is thirsty"

sleekymag:
Jesus Christ is the one we pay tithes to today, he is the high priest who receives the tithes from us.

This reads like any traditional African religious mantra- pay sacrifices to a god as thanks or to seek a favour from it. BTW, the Old Testament writings contain very similar teachings and parctices of our traditional religion.
Please note that[b] Jesus Christ does not need and cannot collect your tithe or offering[/b]. What He recommends is giving to the needy after taking care of your family. You can give to your church to arrange and maintain the place of your meeting as well as spread the gospel the missionary way of old as opposed to the televangelism of self-glorification that goes on today. Remember that God does not dwell in buildings so all those claiming to build churches for God are doing their own personal will for bragging rights- I better pass my neighbour characteristic.
You may want to read this comment and the 40 responses:

The Lie About Giving To God
Yomi Says: Today, I am publishing another classic from the old Yomi Says. This article was first published on August 23, 2007. I am sure it will bless honest seekers.

Here we go! Every few days, a pastor gets on the pulpit and tells people to package their offering and give their gifts to God. We hear the “give to God” line so often that no-one needs bother argue this. I am a pastor. I can pull out a hundred references of when I have made similar statements over the years.

But how true is it?

How true is it that when you give an offering at the church service, you are giving to God? Do we have instructions in the new testament to give “offerings” to God?

We already know the lie about tithing. No sound student of the Bible ought to ever be held to ransom with the “You will be tight if you don’t tithe” thingie in its various shades. Or that “You are cursed with a curse if you don’t tithe“. That one is quite clearer and easier to discern.

FACT 1: There are no commandments to give to God under the new testament
Search, and find one if you can.

FACT 2: There are no examples of giving to God under the new testament
Again, search, and find one example if you can.

FACT 3: All commandments and examples of giving under the new testament are about giving to the needy
I’ll give you those, if you don’t mind:

Acts 2:44-45
Act 11:28-30
2 Corinthians 8, 9
1 Timothy 6:17-19
There may be a few ommissions, but note that none of the above is about “giving to God” (a very vague term, as I am not sure what God would do with money if anyone ever gave Him any). The Church gave to meet human needs. It wasn’t about cathedrals and (often useless) television outreaches and the like.

It Takes Money To Spread The Gospel?
I daresay that if every individual who claims to be saved will get personally involved in witnessing and discipleship, we will discover how inexpensive it is to spread the Gospel, as we would have no need for most of the countless “Christian” TV programmes we have on air today. Of course, then that worn out line (”It takes money to spread the Gospel”) used by preachers to get their sheeple to give “to God” would die out.

Question: So, is it wrong to ask for offerings in our churches?
No; not necesarrily. It would depend on what the offerings are used for and what people are told. Churches often meet in halls today, for example; so it may be okay if we agree to collect offerings to support paying the rent, or helping the needy, or some other good cause.

Let’s just be sure not to tell the people that they are giving to God.

Church members are not giving to God. Often they are giving to the pastor/bishop/G.O. (we all knew that one; didn’t we?), to NEPA (PHCN), to the council officials, to the church staff, to the television station airing their TV outreach, to the landlord, and the like. None of it ever gets to God (that’s obvious; isn’t it?).

That “giving to God” line gives the pastors an often unfair leverage they would not ordinarilly have. Who wouldn’t feel guilty about not “giving to God“?

Conclusion
Next time a “man of Gawd” tells you to give to God, just know it is not true. Even if you do choose to give. And honestly, the choice is yours. Don’t be bullied into giving.

This entry was posted on September 13, 2008 at 3:32 pm and is filed under Bible Teaching and False Teachings and Teachers. You can feed this entry. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.

40 Responses

Source: http://yomisays./2008/09/13/the-lie-about-giving-to-god/

One positive thing that may come out of this credit crunch for Nigerians is that the "my brother send- e Western Union while I enjoy for Naija" syndrome may stop or at least reduce significantly. When the person abroad has to now work extra or dig into his meagre savings to weather the crunch he will be less willing to dole out to those in Naija.
Maybe, just maybe that will increase our awareness to the senseless looting going round us by our Looters-in-Power (LiPs) and we can start asking hard questions of these LiPs and get some really good answers in terms of infrastructure construction & maintenance, power, water, employment, prompt salary & pension payment, effective tax system etc.
Then we may no longer need to go for second slavery abroad where we are underemployed but overworked.

pilgrim.1

Have you read Hebrews 7 up to verse 12
In case you have not, please note that verse 12 says:

For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

The law discussed and described extensively in the first 11 verses is that of tithes. You can check again.

Furthermore, when Christ said He came not to change the law but to fulfil[/color] it, what do you think He meant
By His death at Calvary, Christ fulfilled the law. How do you fulfill a contractual engagement or commitment? What happens after you have fulfilled the contract or commitment?
Paul deals extensively with this concept in his Epistles and letters to CHRISTians. Please study them carefully.
If something is not required and someone, no matter his "claimed level of annointing" harasses and intimidates people to do that which is not required, such a person is simply a [color=#990000]fraudulent, 419 person. QED.

Rationalism and religion
By M.A. Bello

REFLECTING on the recent articles in The Guardian on 'Rationalism' by Jide Akeredolu (August 1, 2008), Tolu Ogunlesi (August 13, 2008), Gordy Onokpite (August 21, 2008) and Leo Igwe (August 10, 2008), one can notice alarming signs of a developing polarisation between the views of 'believers' and 'non-believers' in Nigeria. Considering the importance of religion in the lives of a great majority of Nigerians today, attempt must be made by both believers and non-believers to arrest the situation.

The need for this is obvious. Throughout the ages, religions have been the cause of so much friction, hostility, conflicts and wars. With the amount of sophisticated weapons now freely available around the world, no society can afford any further polarisation based on religions. Moreover, in these days of instant global communication, the devastation caused by religious dichotomy around the globe are visible to everyone, and the word 'religion' understandably becomes provocative to rationalists and non-religious people in general.

There is however, another way of looking at the word 'religion', which makes all of us 'religious' and therefore in the same boat. If we all look at the origin of the word in Latin, 'religare', which means 'binding together', we are all, as humans, in the same boat called 'Planet Earth', and are therefore bound together by our existence in the physical universe. That existence, depends not only on the natural laws of our planet, but also on each other for protection, support, encouragement, help, care, love and understanding.

One indisputable fact is that religion, especially the doctrinaire type practiced in Nigeria, is destructive and counter-productive. That must be why these obviously serious-minded people will risk the wrath of their neighbours and families, to openly express their views in a religiously polarised and stratified society like ours. The fact of the matter is that there are no 'non-believers'. Everyone of us on our planet believes in one thing or the other, but the problem with all religious throughout human history, is that one group always assumes itself to be the custodian of the ultimate truth and labels anyone who disagrees as unbelievers.

As a humanist, whose humanism is based on rationalism, I consider myself a rationalist, which means I believe and subscribe to all the reasons that make Akeredolu a rationalist. He and I, and others like us, view ourselves as belonging to a religion known as 'rationalism'. Those in other forms of beliefs, should realize we hold to our belief, with the same passion that they hold to theirs, and so should not consider us, with such consternation and alarm of the type exhibited in the article of Onokpite. In these days of demand of acceptance and tolerance of all religions, rationalism is just one of the many religions.

Humanists/rationalists believe in basic human rights, in tolerance and in the ethical treatment of all fellow human beings. We have faith in the ability of humans to learn and improve, to mature and to become wise, and admitting that we too have a religion, called humanism/rationalism, reunites us with the rest of mankind, meaning there will be no believers and non-believers, and, thus helping to reduce friction with other groups.

Belief in an evil spiritual realm, the devil and miracles are very basic tenets in Christianity for instance, and, when these are mixed with our traditional beliefs, you get a dangerous cocktail, which a rationalist will easily dismiss as, trivial, silly and replete with mumbo-jumbo, and, having nothing to offer in terms of the 'good and moral life' that he craves. He can also easily conclude that our new-found high profiled religiosity is well and truly populated with charlatans, hustlers and tricksters, making exaggerated and outright fraudulent claims at the expense of a gullible and unsuspecting public.

The rationalist will however not be saying much because he will be missing out two vital points. The first is the motivation of those drawn to our high profiled religiosity and the quality of t heir quest for knowledge. The second is the efficacy of beliefs. The reason for having a belief in most cases is the quest for a good and moral life. Our high profiled religionists are drawn from all spheres and segments of our society, including literate and illiterate people, employed and unemployed people, young and old, powerful and not so powerful etc, all seeking answers to the route to the good and moral life.

What one religion may perceive as the silliest of beliefs by another religion may not be as ridiculous as it looks, if one thinks of the significance of mind over matter. What if the other side's 'silly belief' is held because it enables them to experience a greater sense of integration, harmony and tranquility, can one deny them that and reduce it to irrationality? As a rationalist, I am unable to make sense of spirituality for instance, but I can accept the fact that it may exist for others as a form of meaningful reality similar to the placebo effect.

While rationalists are persuaded by the intellectual revolution started by pre-Christian era thinkers such as Thales, Socrates, Plato, Aristotle and the Stoics, and continued later on by the likes of Copernicus and Bertrand Russell, no amount of rationalism can counter the surge of religiosity in Nigeria for as long as we have the magnet that draws people to religion in the first place. What this is in the context of our society can be gleaned from the religious advertisements all over the place - miracles for prosperity, good health etc. An effective 'Welfare State' as obtains in Britain and the Scandinavian countries, that looks after everyone's prosperity, good health and general well-being, will easily achieve in Nigeria, what no amount of reason and rationalism can in terms of weaning people from some beliefs. Thanks to the Welfare State, the pews in Britain have lost their entire congregation, while ours are filled to the brim, and in spite of this, their standard of morals and their level of integrity is much higher than ours.


Bello lives in Lagos

http://www.guardiannewsngr.com/editorial_opinion/article03//indexn2_html?pdate=031008&ptitle=Rationalism%20and%20religion

okomogo:
f we talk about politicians, don't forget they are our parents, brothers & sisters, cousins, uncles & aunties, nephews, friends, church/mosque/shrine co-worshippers, ex-schoomates.
We hail them each time they are around just to get little money from them,we never tell them what they are doing is bad because you use their connections to get job ,contracts etc.Who do you want to blame for  you and i know them eat and dine with them and you come to this forum and call them politicians.
Is one of your relatives not among them?

GBAM! GBAM!! GBAM!!!

Is one of your relatives not among them?

Anyone ready to answer the above question honestly?
When we can and do answer we will start seeing the change we ]say we desire.

when we[b] (you & I)[/b] stop praising and honoring the thieves who are our parents, brothers & sisters, cousins, uncles & aunties, nephews, friends, church/mosque/shrine co-worshippers, ex-schoolmates etc then we can make the dream for a better life become a reality.
until then we wait for Rawlings to come and kill all the above mentioned people.

A case for rationalism
By Leo Igwe

I READ with great interest the brilliant article by Dr. Jide Akeredolu: "Why I am a Rationalist" in The Guardian of Friday, August 1, 2008. But I must say that I found objectionable most of the thoughts and conclusions in the two rejoinders: Tolu Ogunlesi's "On Religion and Rationalism", (The Guardian, of Wednesday, August 13, 2008) and particularly Gordy Onokpite's: "Why I am not a Rationalist", (The Guardian, of Thursday, August 21, 2008.)

Before delving into my objections, I would like to commend Dr. Akeredolu for his courage and thoughtfulness in stating clearly and persuasively why he subscribes to the rationalist, rather than the religious school of thought. He really exhibited an unusual sense of frankness and candour. I have no doubt that there are many Nigerians like Akeredolu out there who have abandoned the religious baggage and embraced the rational light. But I know they are too afraid to go open and public with their doubts, disbelief and rationalist identity.

My "prayer" is that one day they will muster the courage to leave the closet, and come forward so that we can help deliver this nation from the dark and destructive forces of religious fanaticism and irrationalism. Amen!

Because a nation that allows itself to be defined and be directed by unreason and sacred superstitions will stagnate and die. This is a message that runs through the article of Akeredolu. Incidentally, the authors of the two rejoinders failed to recognise that the seven reasons he gave for being a rationalist are the seven ways religions have underdeveloped this nation.

For instance, he noted that religions instilled "unnecessary fears of demons, witches, spirit-both evil and holy, principalities and powers, Satan or imaginary places like hell" in believers. That is the "gospel" truth. Religion thrives on fear and illusion. The fear of the Lord (or Allah) they say is the beginning of wisdom. So religious believers go through life fearful of imaginary - incomprehensible and nonsensical entities that they have been brainwashed to accept as real, true and powerful.

Religious believers carry with them this sacred baggage that burdens their mind, debilitates their will, narrows their vision, shackles their intellect, distorts their perception, and corrupts their conscience. Believers spiritualise and mystify anything that comes their way-cats, dogs, pigs, snakes etc or happens to them-accidents, sickness, death etc.

And as a result of this spiritual and supernatural corruption and colouration of phenomena, believers hardly entertain a clear, real, and true idea, knowledge and understanding of things, issues and events. They find it difficult to take their destiny fully in their hands. Because they hold that without God they can do nothing. That is why a combination of religion and rationalism as suggested by Tolu Ogunlesi is not tenable. And this is the fault of religion, not of rationalism.

Every religion is dogmatic, absolutist, authoritarian and intolerant of other worldviews. Every religion sees itself as the one and only truth. The religions are in conflict and in contradiction with each other. And, if religions cannot combine among themselves, how does one expect them to combine with the rationalist worldview? Religions do not recognise or acknowledge the validity or veracity of views and perspectives that are doubtful, opposed to or critical of their teachings. That is why it is impossible to forge a mutually inclusive synergy out of religion and rationalism. One cannot be dogmatic and be critical at the same time. A person filled with faith cannot be fully rational. Religion has no space for reason.

Combining rationalism and religion is like trying to merge light and darkness, modernity and primitivity. It is like trying to force a square peg into a round hole. Because in actual fact, religions embody the thoughts and reasoning of some persons at the infant stage of human race. Simply put, religion is out of date and disconnected from contemporary reasoning and reality. This bitter truth should not make a non-rationalist to misrepresent rationalism, and misinform the public as was the case in the piece by Gordy Onokpite. Mr. Onokpite jumbled too many things together and argued so incoherently in order to explain why he is not a rationalist.

First of all his thesis on rationalism is wrong. Rationalism is not, strictly speaking in contrast with empiricism. Reason comes into play in the evaluation, organisation and interpretation of observable and empirical phenomena. It is with reason that humans can make 'sense' out of sensory data. Reason is employed and applied in everything human beings do even though in varying degrees.

Again, we must not forget that humans are rational beings. That it is reason that sets us apart from other animals. So, one can say, in a loose sense, that we are all rationalists! That is why I was so surprised that Onokpite attributed the achievements of Martin Luther King (Jr.), Nelson Mandela, Barack Obama, Philip Emeagwali to the so-called spiritual and psychic powers and other abilities that transcend the natural and rational order of things. What nonsense!

Can anyone tell me anything that was achieved by these men that is not explainable and possible within the limits of reason? All the feats achieved by human beings in history have been as a result of the ability to exert not abandon, their rational capabilities. So the time has come for all Nigerians to recognise this: That religion has served us badly. That irrationalism has caused so much darkness, misery and stagnation. The time has come for all Nigerians to move to the next level - the Age of Reason. The time has come for all Nigerians to embrace the rational light and realise a civilisation with a global dimension.

* Igwe lives in Ibadan, Oyo State.

what happened to the Bible, not enough, not complete
Chris cannot establish schools, hospitals etc to MEANINGFULLY impact people's lives na book wey go glorify am instead of God & Christ wey im wan distribute- shio

and Fashola wants people to come back so they can earn pittance while himself, Tinubu and co are milking the country dry and sending their kids to schools abroad.
Who be MUGU Raise your hand to identify yourself please.

Might be useful to put a link to this thread in the business section.

The truth about fasting? See below from Isaiah 58:

5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the Lord?
6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

8[b] Then shall thy [/b] light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the Lord shall be thy rereward.
9 Then shalt thou call, and the Lord shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity;
10 And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday:
11 And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.
12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.