₦airaland Forum

davidnazee:
I feel sorry for him sha. He seeks answers but his mind his clouded with confusion and it limits his understanding..

You see, my best teachers have always little kids. I kinda envy their teachers. The piercing and spontaneous questions kids ask make me think. The top 2 to 5% brightest young adults in the population, by academic performance, that I have been privileged to mentor have not inspired me as much as kids. Because kids have no resistance to acquiring knowledge. No pretence, no ego trip.

davidnazee:
You have started fighting yourself again this early morning.. well it's a normal thing for aggrieved and self hating people to behave like you are doing now.. kpele oooo

My brother, somebody who spews all kinds of things about the palace, who be me?
Abeg pay no heed.

In enlightening and straightening distortions perpetrated since 1897/1914, you have to expect and deal with oppositions from "within" and without.

Distortions don't become a big issue until those within do it.

UGBE634:
If really know Esan history, you will know this, I left benefit of doubt for you thinking this was already common knowledge. I am 25 percent Esan and seem to know alot of these people and their history.

[/b]

Ah! We finally got there at the end. You should have said that earlier. Your arguments now make more sense. It would probably make more sense for you to create an Esan history thread to discuss how Benin people and Oba are strangers in Igodomigodo land.

Thanks and goodbye.

Jennyclay:
If you support her with application fee nko? Mtcheeww.

Men should learn to help and not expect anything in return. Nawa oo!

If the lady decides not to marry you after spending on her, it's her choice and not a sin against God.

Biko, don't spoil her show oo!

But women should not help but still expect everything in return. Alright.

It's women themselves who make a mockery of equality that they seek.

Guys you have heard it. Do what you do and expect nothing. If you bend over backward to help, na you sabi o.

UGBE634:
Even in history, I was trying to point out that the influence was still subtle, it was one of recognition by the Esan kings that Irrua is the most senior and it ends there. I just wanted to point it out so that people will not mistake your senior for subservient role


If the Itsekiri were to have evolved a monarchy on their own, they would never have gone with the title Ogiame, remember we are talking about the true meaning and intent here. We already have a template in Urhobo and Bini to follow and know that Ojie or Onojie is a cognate word for king, just like Ovie and Ogie. Also we have some template to follow in Benin and Urhobo such that there was already some kings with titles Ogie and Ovie before the emergence of the Oba of Benin that were independent.

Dude, you jump from one minutiae to another. I said one among the agendas at GRC in 1480s was designating seniority of Onojies. The remnant persists till today.

Haba! How does it prove level of control or independence? How can we now say everything that it covered when things have evolved since over 500 years?

Good empires were not necessarily control freaks, unless they feared rebellion, couldn't bank on loyalty or otherwise have reasons for tighter control.

Pontius Pilate didn't want to be involved in Jesus' and Pharisees case. He said it was a local religious issue. If Jesus didn't stop residents of Roman Judea from paying their taxes, didn't say he was superior to Caesar on earthly basis or support rebellion, Rome had no interest. He had to be almost forced to act. Not to appear weak to Judean masses. And washed his hands!

I gave an example with faraway Eastern Yorubaland, how some local royal dukes nearer to Benin, like my ancestors, even had more privileges than some of them. Some of those provincial rulers spent childhood as "omada" in Benin to learn Benin culture and administration.

If you truly know Benin history even a little bit, did more reading and research, you will know one well-known Eastern Yoruba prince who was an omada. He later fell out with Benin when he became ruler in his land. If not that Oyinbo documented it, they would deny today that their future ruler served as omada to prepare for his future role as ruler back home.

I can now agree that your knowledge of evolution of royal traditions, even of Benin history, is not that deep. Or your personal agenda is totally different.

I keep writing what I observed growing up, history written in my presence, learning about Eastern Yorubaland, what I learnt through comparing Greek, Roman, Persian and other better documented imperial histories.

If you are not proud of Benin role in maintaining order in the South Eastern part of West Africa, or your other ethnic affiliations make you resent Oba and Benin history, that's fine. But don't conjecture widely.

We know of resentment by some of our neighbours over historical Benin dominance. No biggie. Nature abhors vacuum and Benin Empire always followed that natural law. The pushback today is to be resentful, deny it, minimise it or confusingly, all of the aforementioned.

To say that Iwerre had not evolved their monarchy on their own is wrong. They have added "Olu", though a direct equivalent Yoruboid word for Ogie or Lord, Igininuwa left Benin with younger sons of 65 chiefs to replicate titles of Benin courtiers in Iwerre, today Iwerre have other more Yoruba sounding titles, they have female chiefs, Ologbosere (3rd in miliary hierarchy in ancient Benin) is a more high ranking chief in Warri (even sometimes serving as Prime Minister), etc.

Gregyboy
Automaticmotor
Samuk
Davidnaze

AutomaticMotors:
Boss do you believe we still have leopards in Edo forests till today? That animal and the palace na 5&6 through out history but for the life of me I never see one for Benin before neither have I even heard of one caught/killed since I was born ..... But I know elephants are in Okomu and Gelegele Axis

A lot of animals have gone near extinct, across the world. Even Asian Leopards. Leopards were never easy to sight or catch in our forests and hunting methods were quite inefficient. So loss of habitat played the biggest role. They probably were never that many within the forests anyway. Like other wild cats, they may have very few predators, their reproduction is not prolific.

That's always a downside for any species that relies on high survival rates to thrive.

They were once in Southern 9ja. They are sometimes sighted in Northern 9ja game reserves these days. There might be a few forest leopards in Benin area, but hard to sight.

UGBE634:
At no point was he ever called by who? When you say someone is a duke, he was under another, who was he under? If

The senior you are talking about here is ceremonial,it is a soft influence, a very weak one, it is just like saying the Others in Esanland are dukes because they respect the Onojie of Irrua. "All of them hold their side o, if Onojie of Irrua do anyhow, them go chook hand for e eye nothing go happen".

The Onojie of Ekpoma is the sovereign of Ekpoma and can preside over issues in Ekpoma 💯 as it pertains to traditional matters or land without seeking the advice of Okaigiesan except he chooses to, same with Uromi, Igueben etc. When it comes to monarchical and traditional power over their domain, they have 💯 sovereignty.

Above all, they are all gazeted, the Onojie of Irrua does not hold any special role in the eyes of the constitution than the others, they are all equal and none is subordinate in the eyes of the constitution aside the senior brother position they see Irrua with which seem to only appear when they gather

Stuck with them how? It is their cognate word for king, bequeathed to them by their Edo ancestor who birthed Bini and Urhobo too

My brother, you are just a bit too hubristic to digest what you read before replying.
You fail to separate history from the present.

How do I care or how is it relevant who today in Esanland is the senior ruler or not?
I just laid down the history and the remnants of it today. I don't want to even be present with breaking kola-nut with any other tribe, if I can avoid it.

Perhaps soon enough Edo North and Central will have their own State and divergence will even be more. Considering how diversity has ruined 9ja, homogeneity is far better. Japan and South Korea prove it. Even if not country yet, let's begin with states that are more homogeneous.

The name stuck because the Grand Royal conference conferred that title. Same as Ogiame stuck with Olu of Warri.

No real evidence that any Esan group left Benin before 1255 when Oba Ewedo's reign began. Oba title was well established already.

Samuk and Automaticmotor

We were discussing chieftaincy titles yesterday. I was very busy, chipping in and out. The around 300 titles Oba has to give out in Benin, our father was given that same rare privilege back in the day. Only a handful of dukes have that full privilege.

As a kid, I saw our father bestow those titles on deserving citizens. Oba Erediauwa as a crown prince was fairly regular back then and knew many of our father's chiefs personally.

When these titles were given out, our local Iyase would educate new chiefs about the history of these titles, how they came about in Benin and privileges and obligations attached. The full traditional observations when given "ivie" by the duke's officials must be done. Like not leaving your house for 7 days. When the palace finally gives the name of the title, it is another 7 days indoors. Of course with all the other processes that follow.

Talking with some custodians in Eastern Yorubaland, I was shocked to learn that our father had more privileges than them in imperial times. They are respected rulers today. For example, my ancestors were not required to bring leopards hunted in their forests/domain to Benin. Those in Eastern Yorubaland had to! However, if our father's servants caught live leopard cubs, the palace in Benin would particularly value it and it was good practice of honour to take the cubs to Beinin.

Keeping hunted leopards to yourself might seem insignificant now, but the arduous journey to Benin on foot through forest roads, whatever the season, was not a joke back then. So it was a big deal.

I grew up hearing stories of relatives who travelled on foot from Edo to Ondo on visits towards end of 19th century, about 1880 to 1900 period. And the adventure of it all.

Anybody can come online, use conjecture but nothing close to reality and just write. That's easy.
I write here because I believe in broadening our horizons and learning.

Efewestern:
I've highlighted some keys points from UGBE634, AreaFada2 and samuk. Edeyoung, I saw your mention and I will try to answer below.







First of all, we all can agree that there was a major divergence amongst the Edoid group. Most groups left during the Ogiso Dynasty (Igodomigodo) and at that time, the current Empire wasn't formed.

Before their departure, The Ogie title was prominent and it didn't by anyway mean Chief/Duke as some would want us to believe. The Urhobos/Isokos who were the largest stock to leave had records of her relationship with Aka and even marked her territories as we can see in Abraka which means a border with Aka.

Before the establishment of the Oba dynasty by Oba Eweka I, most Edoid groups who migrated to various areas were already established, forging with their separate identity except for recent migrators like Iwere who later adopted a Bini Prince.

Wether or not Oba was used during the Ogiso era is still very debatable and inputs from those against and for the argument are valid. I've noted some valid corrections myself and I've also gained some insights.

Efewestern, Ogie meant duke. Ogiegor was always a chief/duke. His position predated Oba period. At no point was he ever called king as ogie.

Ovies didn't start out as kings one day. Their power gradually increased, like it did virtually everywhere else in the world. This is the benefit of comparative history, if you know it.

Again, not all Edoid groups were fully established in diaspora by Oba era. Many Esan people left Benin during Oba Ewuare reign (1440-1473). There was a Grand Royal Conference in Benin in 1480s to anoint Esan enigies/dukes officially. The name Onojie have stuck with them, the current royal status by law irrespective. Among others on that conference agenda was designation of seniority among Esan dukes. The Onojie of Irrua is the senior Onojie. By tradition, if a Benin man is not present at a gathering, an Irrua man breaks the Kola-nut. The logic is that the Benin man represents the Oba and Irrua man represents Onojie of Irrua. Many Esan people have confirmed this to me over a period of last 30 plus years.

Of late in diaspora, I have seen one occasion when Esan have asked for two bowls of Kola nuts. One for Benin, one for Esan.
We will keep diverging and language will keep losing similarity. My elderly folks called coconut Ekokodia 40 years ago. You won't hear a young Benin person call it Ekokodia today. 50 years from now, just like Okoro, some will claim that Kokodia is only a pure Delta word for coconut.

Post-1914 (restoration of monarchy terms), we are not concerned with whatever title or status rulers outside Edo South are said to or claim to have or gazetted legally as.

Unless you can provide evidence from at least early 1800s that Ovies were kings from day 1, they were chiefs/dukes to begin with. That is why they came to "buy ovieship" from Benin. If they were authoritarian or very powerful, by the standards of transport back then, in their faraway domain and acted like a king, that was their prerogative.

Back then, Oba cared mostly about allegiance, loyalty, continuity and order. Many local issues were devolved to local rulers. including issue of slavery practice.

Gregyboy
Automaticmotor
Samuk

samuk:
Whilst the Ooni and Alaafin were fighting dirty in public, they created what they call ancient burial sites for Oba of Benin in Ife. Oba of Benin is the only one amongst them with such honour. Although the so called burial pit was excavated by the Europeans that were not convinced about the story and found no remain of human bones, which confirmed what they already suspected.

It was because of European suspicious of the story that made them excavated the site. The Europeans have previously documented Benin history for centuries and couldn't find any connection with Ife. They felt their intelligence was being insulted with the Ife fairytale and they investigated and found no connection between Benin and Ife that can be backed up by history.

You can see that Ife and Oyo doesn’t even speak the same language according to the Alaafin in that article you posted. The common language thing was Oyo's contribution to the western region unification arrangement I talked about earlier.

Whenever Dr Egharevba is quoted in Benin, the Benin nobles usually laugh at the person's ignorance. You can Google the Esogban's reply to the late Ooni when the Ooni quoted Dr Egharevba during the public disagreement on Benin/Ife connection between late oba Erediawa and late Ooni.

If not for the fact that Awolowo introduced tribalism and the yoruba are over zealous plus the need to preserve Benin authentic history, there would have been no need to reveal the Ife fairytale.

1. The oba of Benin contributed his centuries old history and got back a very senior role being the chosen heir to Oranmiyan and Oduduwa. The Oba of Benin also got special ancient burial site created for his ancestors, he his the only one amongst them to have such in Ife.

2. Ooni contributed Ife as the centre of migration of everyone and got a lesser role of chief priest.

3. Alaafin contributed the common language and also got a senior role as the second son of Oranmiyan.

The story started with Oranmiyan leaving Ife to Benin, he couldn’t stay, but didn't leave until he ensured he left a pregnant Benin princess behind to give birth to Oba Eweka 1. After Oranmiyan ensured his dynasty will continue in Benin, he left for Oyo were he became the Alaafin, he had a second son that carried on as Alaafin. In Oranmiyan's absent from Ife, the Ooni was in charge of the gods and deity as chief priest.

As with all this kind of arrangements, someone is bound to become greedy...in this case the Ooni backed up by western political class such as Awolowo and a result, things fell apart and Benin moved out of the western region.

This revelation is why most yoruba avoid threads like this nowadays, unlike before.

You mentioned how Oyo seems to have got the short end of the stick. It was a gang up of sorts. Some have not forgiven Oyo for its dominance in what is now Yorubaland since 1690s until 1820-30s. They feared rise of another politically imperial Oyo.

Other Yorubas were much more comfortable with Ife/OOni, a priest, with no true evidence of previous imperial power, aside conjecture of ruling far and wide or mythical rulers/deities. If Ife/Oduduwa was such an empire, why is it that thousands of their princes were famous hunters that left to settle in various forests near a stream, junction or where the shot elephant fell and died?

Wait, not so fast. Lagos-Ibadan express people will soon tell us they went to hunt for human beings. That elephant was just a metaphor.

In life when somebody too do wayo, you go wayo yourself.

The only Yoruba nation we respected in Benin was Oyo. At least since 1690s. Over 250 after Benin built an empire in 1440 AD. Respected enough to sign Otun (Northern Ekiti) Treaty with their Aare Ona Kankanfo and Iyase Ekpenede.

Oyo can never get the short end of the stick. They gave their language to Yoruba, their imperial history is solid, Oranmiyan is Yoruba most senior prince, he was King in Oyo before being one in Ife. Late Alaafin Lamidi Adeyemi talked history with confidence. I even watched his old interview on Benin and the British. Quite revealing.

Oba of Lagos is not popular among many Yoruba today because of his clear message of Benin origin. Some are misinterpreting his other messages to say he came from Ife.

AutomaticMotors:
Chaiii I don't have it o
If someone can help us pls post the meme boss requested oo

Actually SW people are very very good people generally. Those from Eastern part are much like Edo people. Whenever I go there, Eastern people don't see us any different. They are very aware of our shared history. I have family all over the area. Some know even our links more than me sef.

Some NLers are just too enthusiastic to jump online thinking it is their ethnic duty. Most posting here don't promote the culture more than me. Our shared culture is so vibrant in the East and I promote it in my own way. If we don't promote it, the Edo in those cultures will be lost. And everybody will be poorer for it culturally.

AutomaticMotors:



When I first came on nairaland culture section many years ago their brainwashing machinery was very shiny and well oiled it was only until I started seeing your push back I started having hope oo but now thank God all your hard work paid off because their machine is all rusty and dirty now I even heard no mechanic again to service it I heard he threw away the spanner saying "The Edo fire is too hot" he can't continue na just some homeless kids dey Try rub oil in machine once in awhile

Abeg, wey that meme of girl lying on the floor laughing and Drogba own.

AutomaticMotors:
Thank God ooo that he cut out when he did because if he didn't even you AreaFada2 can't save us in this culture section

AutoM. who be me? I for dey wail for desert o. Nobody for listen. Even all the history I saw being written since I was a kid for nor help me sef. Dem for brainwash more Edo Benin people with Lagos-Ibadan express publishers stories.

samuk:
Oba Akenzua saw the handwriting on the wall, that's why he hurriedly carried his thing (Ekaladerhan AKA Oduduwa) and run away from the western region. this people cannot be trusted, they flirt with every foreign religion.

Oba Akenzua was educated at Kings College Lagos. He knew the language and culture. So nobody could deceive him.

UGBE634:
:DThe Oba was not a king but an Emperor,an Emperor whose title cannot be interpreted in Benin these Ogies/Ovies are kings not dukes

Not those titles those Enogies the Oba is creating now, of course those ones are dukes

I would never agree the Ogi-egor or Okaevbo of Urhonigbe is a duke to the Oba of Benin, I would rather see it as a king-emperor relationship

And those created 200 or 250 years ago?

Remember that the status of any ruler has to be officially gazetted in modern times. Is Ogiegor gazetted as a King like Olu of Warri or Delta Ovies? If not what anyone thinks is officially of no value.

Ogiegor is part of Uzama N'ebie or junior Uzama. Junior Uzama is led by Chief Ineh. Ogiamien is a junior member of the junior Uzama too. In case Uzama senior refuse to do their job, the junior will be drafted in. Just like Ihama took over from Isekhure, even though Ihama is father of Isekhure historically to begin with.

samuk:
Are you saying every Tom, Dick and Harry claiming migration from Ife today, did so in the past? Whilst Ife keep the migration stories going, the oba of Benin is keeping the Oduduwa story going by his annual Ugie Oduduwa. I am not sure what the role of the Alaafin is now in the arrangement. I know he gives out some specific chieftaincy titles in yoruba land.

With the way yoruba people and oba are embracing foreign religions such as Christianity and Islam, the role of the Ooni is daily diminishing as well.

At the end, it seems only the Oba of Benin end of the stick will endure well into the future. The Sultan have far more yoruba people under his spiritual leadership than the Ooni. Left for you guys, you would have probably sold Oduduwa and Oranmiyan to the Hausa/Fulani in a few centuries.

Samuk, I nor go gree o, I nor go gree. I go protest.

We nor go let them dash away our illustrious Ekhaladerhan legacy to some desert goons.

At least Ekaladerhan nor use Alibaba flying carpet from Afghanistan, na leg he use waka jeje. No heavenly chains either.

AutomaticMotors:
Boss abeg enjoy some Ohenhen! You have done and keep on doing! More grace to your elbow Epa


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDBhbpktfxI&pp=ygUHb2hlbmhlbg%3D%3D

This your Sunday night groovy sound nor be here o. Where is the Odeku and bush meat to use enjoy this na?

Efewestern:
Ooni, Awujale, Alake, Alafin, Olubadan, Oluwo, Olu, etc are not the yoruboid word for king, they are title of each sovereign rulers. I can't give a breakdown of these titles but I'm very sure they mean different thing.

The closest the Yorubas have to Oba is "Baale," which by the way is a low ranking title for a tiny community heads.

It is an established fact that Ogie is an Edoid word for King. Regardless of what some are trying to spin, Ogie means king and not Duke. Now, in Yoruboid, aside Oba, there is no other Yoruba word for King. Olu isn't king. Olu means Lord. Ooni , Alaffin are titles. Baale isn't also close. This leaves us with only OBA, unless you want to convince me that Yoruboid had no word for king.

Also, it makes no sense for Edoid to call King Ogie and Oba. Either one is foreign or the other just mean a different thing entirely.

Now, let's look at History.

When the Bini prince arrived Itsekiri, he met riverine Yoruba dwellers and united them. After the kingdom was established, several Bini aristocratic titles were adopted including Ogie, Ologbosere and Iyasere.

Some Yoruba titles like Olu, Oloye and Olareaja were retained. Being an amalgamation of two culture, Itsekiri retained the Ogie title, the Olu title and the Oba title. Whilst Olu of Itsekiri was more pronounced, their kings were also called Ogie and Oba (See the Itsekiri Anthem).

The children of a king are called Oton-Olu while the heir to the throne is called Oma-Oba. Now, the question is, why is Oba found in Itsekiri and not in Ika? Isoko? Urhobo? Weren't these group also influenced by Bini? Why is it that only groups that share affinity with Yoruba have it in their lexicon?

Efewestern, my uncle is greeted locally as "Ogie mwan ghato kpere". My ancestors before that too. The minute the first was appointed duke, as younger princes were back then and even now. The current one happens know Elawure and Enogie of Utese quite well. They are same dukes. The greeting is literally " Long Live our Lord". Ask any Benin person how they greet their local Enogie or Duke. At least, this is simple enough experiment you can conduct.

In the presence of Oba Erediauwa visiting us in 1980 the greetings were: Oba ghato kpere to the Oba and Ogiemwan ghato kpere to our father.

Are you implying that people were greeting our father as an Oba in the presence of Oba Erediauwa?

Haba!

To do conjectures online is one thing, at least what I recommended you to do is easy enough. Very cheap. I can even direct you to as many Enogie palaces as you wish. Just go and observe for a few hours. I will exclude our own so that you don't think it was fixed.

Kings of England were at one point called "King of England, Lord of Ireland and Duke of Normandy". Did it reduce them in any way or proved contradictory? No! Kings, even Pharaohs were regularly called "My Lord" by courtiers. How did it change anything?

There are even more names used to describe or praise Oba and are not seen as contradictory.
Sorry, I don't want to sound condescending but we should endeavour to read very widely to get a wider perspective of things.

Efe, I really expect you to know better than you are arguing.

Samuk
Automaticmotor
UGBE634
Gregyboy

samuk:
Oba is Benin in Origin. Even if you were to be right in a long stretch, it's still not enough evidence that the oba of Benin is yoruba.

Today more than half of yoruba monarchs share affinity with Islamic religion, some have even adopted Islamic names and titles, does this now mean that they were no longer yoruba in origin?

In the past Oba of Benin seek the best medicine men across the land, there was no place that was too far. Benin was heavily involved in Africa religious practices and renowned native doctors and practitioners of Africa religion were invited to Benin, sometimes to the palace. Any contribution from these various tribes, Ibo, Yoruba etc, doesn't change the Benin Origin of the Oba.

If you argue that the Oba of Benin is from Ife and his title is of yoruba origin, you have to show that Ife had monarchs in the 1500s.

Don't also forget that Easter yoruba was under the cultural influence of Benin for centuries and they copied the Benin style of monarchy and not the other way round.

Samuk, it would be improper for me to disclose private discussions with these personages in Eastern Yorubaland. How NL commentators believe that the could possibly know more than the custodians is baffling to me. It goes beyond what is bolded above. I have nothing to gain by putting one side above the other. If anything, I even have much easier access on SW side.

Now regarding argument over Ogie, Enogie, etc between Efewestern and others, the example of Ogiame of Itsekhiri is enough to settle it.
Iginuwa was sent as "Ogie Amen". That Ogie meaning is not different in origin to what other Edoid tribes have.

Ogie means Lord. As in one ruling over an area. In Benin view and purpose, it was not meant to be King in stature.

Of course, since the Ogie or Ovie is the ruler now in charge and with increased independence, exercising the power of a king, he came to be seen as a king. Was there any point in changing Ovie title to reflect his king status? In my view not at all!
But Efe remember that those Ovies did not start out as a king. Ogisos did not start out as outright kings even. They were senior elders among elders of Benin quarters. Each Quarter produced an elder who will become next leader when the previous dies.

Oliha, Edohen, Ero and Eholor ancestors were among the elders when their leader had a brilliant idea to make himself king. The other 4 chiefs/elders, after intense negotiations, agreed but on one condition. That they should be permanent chiefs with near equal power to the king too. They all agreed (swore at Erimwindu/shrine all Benin ancestors) that the king must ensure their sons inherit their titles and they must ensure the king's son or chosen heir inherits kingship. These elders laboured hard to wrestle control of Benin from Evian descendants and restore monarchy after Ogiso Owodo. They were fulfilling ancestral oath and also safeguarding their positions, since only an Ogiso direct blood descendant would be under oath to ensure the elders retain their positions perpetually.

The Elders list later expanded to 7 to include Ezomo, Oloton and the Crown Prince. So the long match to kingship began somewhere for every ancient king.

Whatever title any tribe uses to describe their king today is their choice. But we are looking at origins of names first. Nobody is disputing Ovie or Orodje meaning king to those people today.

UGBE634:
in some quarters, it was strictly Ogiso Igodo, the Oba seem to have been the palace addition to it

Yet, Europeans documented Oba in Benin title in a letter dated 1502, yet nothing about Oba in any Yoruba or "Yoruboid" area like Iwerre?

UGBE634. Just take your side of the divide and defend it bravely. I make no secret of my SW links but also clear about where I stand in the effort to straighten things that others wrote (basically wanting to dictate Benin history) when Britain denied us education. Even refusing us permission to build and fund our own schools.

scholes0:
BTW. Yoruba did not copy - Elema, Aro (which you guys call Ero), Odofin (which you guys call Edohen) from Benin.
They exist as both titles of palace chiefs and that of the powerful Ogboni aristocracy (Iware/Eghare) as well as the Hierarchy within Ifa Orunmila (Awo cadets)

In Ifa for example:
The Odofin is the second ranking Babalawo after the Oluwo
The Aro is the third ranking Babalawo
The Elemo/Agoro is a chief superintendent of the traditional rites

And that is why you will find these titles in both Eastern AND Western Yorubaland. contrary to your submission that the geographical scope of these titles are limited within Yorubaland. You find them all over. In Ikirun, Iwo, Ilesa (which you mentioned), Abeokuta, Ede, Offa, Ketu. Etc and finally in IFE itself, including areas far removed from Benin influence.

One quick correction. Aro and Ero are not same o. They are two different titles in Benin. That Edohen means Odofin is a mere conjecture. Edohen, Oliha, Ero and Eholo are the oldest titles. As old as Ogiso. They are actually village rulers, but now grown to meet Benin. I have read many SW writers' papers and theses with these errors.
Funny that a very good paper published in SW traced Ijesha/Ilesha titles and their origins. It made it clear of their Benin origins. Yet Ife is nearby? Why then?

scholes0:
lol, where do I even start in addressing the mixture of half truths and some complete falsehoods in this write-up?
Do you speak Yoruba language for starters?

Infact, saying 'Oba' is anything but Yoruba is like saying 'Ori' is not head in Yoruba. The word is as fundermentally Yoruba as a word can get.

Do you know the meanings of Obaluaye, Obatala or Obalufon?

Do you know why Sango is known by the name Oba Koso?

Do you know why Oba'nta is one of the premier fathers of the Ijebu people?

All these our Alaafin (Owner of the palace- Aafin), Olowo (Lord of Owo), Deeji which is short for Owafadeji (Bestowed the crown - Ade), Owa Obokun (The first to get Sea water -Okun), Arinjale, Awujale (Spread to reign over land- Ile/Ale), Ewi (The eloquent speaker) Etc does not mean KING... they are what can be best described as customized or place specific honorifics.. They are all Obas.

Pride is such a strong motivating factor in historical distortion.

Ah! Mr Fifth columnist is here.

You just confirmed what we all already knew. These rulers began as housekeeper, priest, baron or speaker.
Is there any serious student of history who doesn't know these meanings? You talk as if Yoruba is some kind of Sumerian cuneiform or Egyptian hieroglyphic language.

You are still reeling out mythical figures that cannot be proven to have existed as evidence of Oba?

Take Sango as third king of Oyo for example, how reasonable is the timeline and the story? I have read it in many books and saw films on it. No logic at all.

In Benin, we had Oba-godo in Igodomigodo. as an Ogiso. Ogiso meant not god literally from the sky but one heavenly ordained. How could someone whose childhood, parents, family and house and quarter in Benin were known be directly from the sky? It was about divine ordination.

But you still parade mythical figures as evidence of real kingly Obas. Lol.

By the way, I am also familiar with Ifa corpus. I knew the story of Eji Ogbe (Oba Odu) in particular as a kid already.

Europeans have various names for prime minister: Bundeskanzler, Kanzler, Taoiseach, First Minister, Prime Minister, etc. All don't literally mean Prime minister but became regarded as such because all are heads of government. But all have histories about their genesis and evolution. So king came to be known by various names. Even if not literally but all now mean or imply king in that dialect/culture.

So your attempt at reeling out meanings of Olu, Owa, Awujale, Soun, Ooni or Alafin again proves your assumption of oversabi. I probably knew these meanings long before you did. Even if there was anything I didn't know, there are least two major palaces in SW I can ask for information at any time.

Efewestern:
Usen and Iwere may have mixed so well with their Edoid neighbors, but the core-fabric of these groups is Yoruboid. Bro, Oba is very pronounced the Iwere language. They use it in titles, proverbs and praise singing. You can't say it is a recent adaptation when the word has strong root in the language itself compared to Edo whose link we could barely establish.

Again, the Oba of Bini's supremacy doesn't validate the claims that Oba is an Edoid word. You keep stressing on the Oba's strength and influences. That's not what is on the table here. If smaller Bini-influenced groups like Iwere and Usen could interchangeably used the Oba title, then this invalidates your initial assertion that Oba was reserved only for the Bini emperor.

I may not be a linguistics, but I know it is hard for a word to just vanish from a mother language without any trace. Even lost Edo words like Okoro is still traceable within the Urhobo and Isoko dialects. If Oba was used pre-migration, then some few Edoid groups would have kept a trace of it. But surprisingly, only Yoruboid groups kept strings of the word. What does that tell you ?

You are very correct in some of your assertions. The Bini influences over related groups was very strong. You can't do anything pertaining royalty without informing the Oba. Even several external communities was under the direct rulership of the Oba. For example, the Oba was the one in charge of what is today known as Oghara. Urhobo grew in population and strength and some influences could no longer hold.

Okoro is a breathing and living name in Benin o. Not lost. It even means "prince" as in Oba's son. I explained it in a reply to your post, I believe like 2 years ago. I even cited Oba Erediauwa as a student at Government College Ibadan when his British teacher asked him to have his letters addressed to him as Okoro Solomon Akenzua instead of Prince Solomon Akenzua. The Oyinbo was ignored of course. I know minimum 12 families in Benin called Okoro as surname. Okoro originally meant boy.

Ok, regarding age, before 1480 when Oba Olua sent his son to become Ogiame, there was no high-ranking ruler in Iwerre. How can Oba use in Iwerre become more rooted than in Benin?

What was the rank or title of Awujale of Ijebu and Olowo of Owo, the major places in Yorubaland people migrated from to Iwerre? The problem remains that people sill think that only a large tribe can give culture to a smaller tribe as they are seen today. Yorubas were not one until just 200 years ago. Owo man could not communicate with Oyo man. So they had different names for kings. Only standardised Oyo Yoruba that most now speak brought "unity" of tongue. I have a dialect that is around 90% similar to Iwerre one. Even closer to Usen. So I am not one to be told about it.

The reason Benin influence in Eastern Yorubaland was so big is that Eastern Yorubas saw other Yorubas as totally different. So they readily accepted influential Benin by and large, of course waxing and wanning.

These things are not just "mere common sense" stuff but of scholarship.

Efe, I will not re-explain Oba meaning in Benin. I did many times before. Read through old posts if you want to know. To claim deeper root of Oba in Benin means you do not know Benin in any depth.

I can tell you of at least 20 places that didn't use Oba title 110 to 50 years ago but now use Oba praise

Benin language I heard growing up is different from now. Never mind how people who left Benin 600 to 700 years ago would have dropped some words and retained others. Some words in my dialect in Edo sound archaic or even unknown in Eastern Yorubaland today. Those in their 80s and 90s over there understand virtually every word. Meaning those words may still have been used when they were growing up but obsolete now. It doesn't mean they didn't exist centuries ago there. Difference is while theirs was influenced a lot by Oyo dialect over last 150 years, ours was not.

I write all these epistles because of silent people reading them and for posterity.

Efewestern:
Usen and Iwere may have mixed so well with their Edoid neighbors, but the core-fabric of these groups is Yoruboid. Bro, Oba is very pronounced the Iwere language. They use it in titles, proverbs and praise singing. You can't say it is a recent adaptation when the word has strong root in the language itself compared to Edo whose link we could barely establish.

Again, the Oba of Bini's supremacy doesn't validate the claims that Oba is an Edoid word. You keep stressing on the Oba's strength and influences. That's not what is on the table here. If smaller Bini-influenced groups like Iwere and Usen could interchangeably used the Oba title, then this invalidates your initial assertion that Oba was reserved only for the Bini emperor.

I may not be a linguistics, but I know it is hard for a word to just vanish from a mother language without any trace. Even lost Edo words like Okoro is still traceable within the Urhobo and Isoko dialects. If Oba was used pre-migration, then some few Edoid groups would have kept a trace of it. But surprisingly, only Yoruboid groups kept strings of the word. What does that tell you ?

You are very correct in some of your assertions. The Bini influences over related groups was very strong. You can't do anything pertaining royalty without informing the Oba. Even several external communities was under the direct rulership of the Oba. For example, the Oba was the one in charge of what is today known as Oghara. Urhobo grew in population and strength and some influences could no longer hold.

Okoro is not lost in Benin o. Every Prince of Benin is called Okoro. You probably have to know more to be sure of these things first.

Crown Prince is Okoro n'Okhua. Okoro meant boy child initially but became Prince. I explained Okoro matter years ago here about how Oba Erediauwa was a student at Government College Ibadan, like 80 years ago. The chat between him and his British teacher. I believe I was replying to your post back then. I know at least 12 families with Okoro surname in Benin.
I still put it to you to show me any evidence of Olu of Warri using Oba title from 1800s. Remember, the Portuguese also documented Olu of Itsekhiri quite well. Show me Oba title in it.

I can tell you at least 20 Yoruba kings that never used Oba title until 100 years ago. Olubadan is one of them. Many were still "Baale". Not even yet king in status. Do you know how many Obas have been created or those elevated as Oba in last 50 years alone in Yorubaland? They all now have Oba title and praise name. It does not take long to be rooted. Just replace "Baale" in proverbs and songs with Oba.

Yes, power of Oba was important before 1897 because rulers in sphere of Benin influence could not just take Oba title like that. I have shown that even Yoruba rulers under Benin influence didn't even use Oba title. One cannot just wake up and use Awujale as a royal title. It is unique. Oba was unique to Edo. While it existed in Yoruba as "King" as some point, it never was individual appellation of a king. In a Western Region Traditional Rulers meeting in Benin in the 1940s, the register of attendees uniquely bore Oba of Benin as only Oba. Others were Ooni, Awujale, Alake, Alafin, etc. He was present but nothing like Oba Adesoji Aderemi was written. It was Ooni of Ife. Today, it would not be complete without writing The Ooni of Ife, Oba Adeyeye Ogunwusi.

Titles like Ojomo, Sagwe, Ero, Owangwe, Osere, Bajuaye and Sasere used in parts of Yorubaland now were adopted from Benin's Ezomo. Osague, Ero, Esere, Bazuaye and Iyase. You have them now in Ilesa and most of Eastern Yorubaland. In 100 years, people will swear that they are not from Benin. Even 50 years from now, people will not admit that the titles came from Benin. Others will argue that because they are so widespread in Yorubaland, it must have existed in Yorubaland long before coming to Benin.

But each title has unique story behind it in Benin.

Oliha, Edohen, Ero and Eholo were titles in Benin by 40BC already. Do you have all these titles in all Edoid Delta Aristocracy? You don't believe that some words and positions disappear if not used in separated languages? I know Iyase title exists in many Delta Edoid people but it is fairly young. Iyase was created in about 1255 AD by Oba Ewedo of Benin. The former 4 are way older. Being old doesn't mean all separated languages must have it.

The Benin/Edo Language I used to hear people speak growing up is different from the one I hear now. Never mind after 600 to 700 years of separation from Benin.

Before Oba Olua sent his son to Iwerre in 1480, there was no high-ranking ruler there. How can Oba already documented by Europeans then become less rooted in Benin than in Iwerre?

I write my epistles because of silent readers and posterity.

samuk:
The battle has been lost and won. We on the winning side have to be magnanimous in victory.

One thing you must realise is that you are partly to blame for the the calamity that befell the Benin/Ife connection.

As Gov. Wike will say, As E de pain them, E dey sweet us.

As Gov. Tinubu will say, Balablu, bulabla, God bless APCPDP.

Peace ✌

Abeg have mercy this Saturday night o, haba!

Even wicked Wike doesn't dish out so much fatality like this.

Efewestern:
In my own enclave, we are expected to pay our homage to AKA (Bini) during a coronation of a new King or High chief (a practice that has long being abandoned).

No one is disputing the Oba's influences. His influences was never in question. We are only asking questions about the root of the word Oba because we can't seem to trace it in the Edoid lexicon.

Even if Oba was exclusively reserved for the emperor of Bini, there could have been reference to the word with the Edoid family. For example, the Urhobos refer to God as Oghene but Bini word for God (Osanobua) is very much traceable in several Urhobo dialects (Osonobrugwe/osolobrugue). This is validity of a word within a family group.
[b]
Also, why is it that only non-edoid group call their Kings Oba? Usen and even Iwere. [/b]These groups interchangeably call their kings Oba. Why are they comfortable with the Oba word?

I already explained why. To say Usen and Iwerre are totally non-Edoid is wrong. When you consider how much Itsekhiri have mixed with Benin and Isiko/Urhobo and how much Benin has mixed with Usen. I know because aside Benin proper, I am closest to Usen, Iwerre and Eastern Yoruba. This interchangeability is recent, unless you can show me any pre-1800 evidence of being called Oba. Even, show me one pre-1897. Do you know why Olu of Itsekhiri position was suspended from 1856 to 1936 (no Olu for 80 years)? Do you know why Oba Akenzua II gave the grandfather of current Olu of Warri 14 beads to crown the next 14 Olus of Warri?

When the centuries old Portuguese-made crown was stolen last time, the current Olu relied on one of those 14 beads to do his coronation, not really the newly made crown publicly seen. Watch Olu's inauguration video. He said it himself.

Previously, each Ovie/Orodje came to Benin to buy his title. A three months journey to-and-fro to "buy Ovie". A very expensive and elaborate process of identifying the skull of the last Ovie in Benin. Some would-be ovies did not even survive the journey/rigour. I guess this may shock you to hear.

When the British invaded Benin and looted the palace, the skulls they saw were of prominent provincial rulers and defeated foreign rulers (like Deji of Akure in 1818). They were not sacrificial victims.

The whole body of work on these histories is an entirely massive subject of which most people who comment know less than 0.05%
If you have elderly people with good history knowledge, ask what going to Benin to "buy "Ovieship" meant. A Delta man in his 80s in about 1980 educated us about how they relate with Aka. Quite revealing. An average person from his tribe would totally dispute it today. The way Igbo today insult the Great Zik of Africa about the book he wrote in early 1970s revealing Onitsha history and its Benin origin. I mentioned rise of ethnic nationalism earlier. It grew steadily after Biafra War to what it is today.

The suspension of Oba's suzerainty over areas that Oba once held sway was a matter of Benin-British terms/pact of restoration of Benin Monarchy in 1914. For Oba to give up any rights of overlordship over areas outside what is now Edo South. Of course, many rulers outside Edo South still continued fulfilling ancient requirements stealthily for sometime. To cement their legitimacy since succession disputes were still decided in Benin.

Even now, many of those rulers still pay private visits (not the usual thank you visit that comes after coronation) to Oba of Benin in the period, knowing it is part of ancestral or ancient practice. Obi of Iselukwu openly did his to the Edaiken (His father Oba Erediauwa was indisposed at the time). Also in areas where succession disputes may occur, Oba's blessing is still valued, even prudent to have. The role of Oba of Benin in resolving the Dein of Agbor saga in late 1970s as he ascended the throne aged 2 was also clear. Things that are now being debated about Benin and Agbor history were not in question when Ben was aged 2. He was brought to Oba Palace before going to UK. Those of us old enough remember it well.

We see how the goal-post has gradually shifted since late 1970s. With a share of national cake at stake, people are quickly readjusting their position and history to prove "ancient difference and independence" from others. Any tribe that has now achieved a sizeable population is leveraging on it politically. Politics is a game of numbers.

Among all proper Edoid people, if you mentioned Oba back then, it meant only one personage: Oba of Benin. So no other related ruler would have assumed that title in the past. Elawure and Olu never used Oba title before. Even now, Elawure will never go to Benin and call himself Oba. He is Enogie. By the way, Elawure and Enogie of Utese are not the only so-called "non-edoid" Enogie in Edo South.

To truly understand history, one must do some own research. I have explained as much as I can. Or I will be repeating what I have done many times on NL before already about Oba title.

Efewestern:
Supremacism is the reason we won't get anything right as regards to our historical connections and heritage.

Some things shouldn't even be debated when the facts are there. You can't claim to apply common sense and logic and still believe somethings.

The Oba title debate is funny to me because Edo is the core root of most South Southerners and it won't be difficult to validate some claims. If you say the Oba title was used for over 1000years, then other edoid groups would have retained it in their various dialects.

As we speak, the only title that spreads across all related group is Ogie. Now here are my questions.

* When was Oba first used ?

* Why isn't it found in any Edoid languages?

* Most Edoid groups were very independent from Bini influences and would have adopted the title for their leaders if it was the title used pre-migration.

* Why was Ogie the general accepted word for king? Even Unrelated bini-influenced groups like Iwere used Ogi(e)ame. Why not Oba-Ame?

I believe there is a missing link somewhere. The dots aren't connecting.

Let me tell you why. Whether Edoid groups were largely independent or dependent, most acknowledged Oba's superiority. Even those that were more independent sought Oba's confirmation or blessing. Even outside direct Edo areas.

For example, in 1818 (just yesterday in historical terms), Benin sacked Akure when the new Deji of Akure refused to accept instruments of office from Chief Osagwe, Oba Osemwende's emissary. The Deji even murdered Osague (a title also adopted by some Yoruba monarchies as Sagwe or Sawe as a chief). It was serious rebellion and breach of established order. Of course Oba demanded Deji's head physically and got it.

As for Warri, in 1480, Oba Olua sent his son Prince Iginuwa (Ginuwa) to go and be the Lord of the Seas as his new domain. There are various versions as to how this came about. But he was to be "Ogie Amen". About 8 or 9 years ago, the father of current Olu said was now a Christian and wanted to drop Ogiame title. His own family and Iwerre youth protested. He was advised to retain it or abdicate. Gov. Uduaghan, Rita Lori Ogbegbor and others had to intervene. He retained the name to calm things. Iwerre people said Ogiame is the tittle Iginuwa brought from Benin and there is no dropping it. Adding Olu to it is fine. I posted the link to the story on NL before.

All rulers below the Oba were never called Oba in Benin Empire. They were seen as dukes/Enogie/Ogie/Enigie. In the same way Enogie of Utese and Enogie of Usen are seen today. If they were in Delta or outside Edo South, they might be officially called king by now.

Even when Lagos monarchy was founded by Oba Orhogbua of Benin, it was meant as a dukedom, under Benin and that was in Benin view the case until 1861 when Britain took over Lagos with Eleko Dosunmu. Lagos rulers did not even use Oba title before then but Eleko.

In essence, in Benin view, Oba was not just a kingship title but also an emperor. Therefore, no other ruler believed to have allegiance to Benin would bear Oba title. Even if their Ogie title, due to influence and size of their domain, would equate to kingship. Obas of Benin were administratively very precise. Names, titles and all were well-controlled. They always figured out ways to outmanoeuvre the rising powers and influence of Benin High Aristocracy and areas considered Benin territory, whatever people now say of their history post-1897 and especially in current 9ja with rise of ethnic nationalism. It marvelled Europeans already from 1470s.

I have read numerous PG and doctoral theses on Benin History by researchers from across the world and it's quite amazing what they reveal everyday. From Oba Palace Musicology to Palace Societies to Councillors of State.

As for how long Oba title has existed, it was in Benin before Eweka 1 Dynasty. We have exhausted the history of the title here over the years in many threads and posts.

Today, nobody is superior over anyone. It doesn't feed anyone. History just has be straight.

What we now call Benin, Ife/Yoruba and Igbo civilisations most likely first grew from Benue/Niger area. That is much more likely. The similarities between people/languages of Benue/Niger confluence axis with Yoruba on one hand and Igbo on the other still show it. Nobody came from no India, Babylon, Egypt, Iraq, Israel or Viet Kong.

Core Benin, without direct contiguity with Benue/Niger may have reduced similarities between Benin and Benue/Niger languages over time. Not to say that there are none at all or that there wasn't any movement back and forth. The excavation of "Orun Oba Ado" site in Ife that yielded nothing related to Benin at all is quite telling.

Good

AutomaticMotors:
Ahh it is no more an hunter that got lost inside bush from Ile Ife that founded this one ??

Auto, why are you wicked like this na? Such vawulence early momo like this?

The story never end na. This na just the first version. Lost hunter episode will follow soon. ;

stasius:
Tinubu's army should develop his own na abi they don't know computer?

You think say app na "omo mi da" urchinic activity?

Wey dem for let PYO slug it out with PGO and Atiku.

Now the chances of Aso Rock being old age pensioner home for at at least 4 years are now 2:1.

Ajumose:
The best range if cow you can buy is 130k , 140k , 150k. Minimum cow you can have under us is 5. Charges every month is 5k per cow. This will cover herder handler and medicines

Ok. If you buy say 5 cows of 130k, how old are they? What is their breed? Male. female or mixed?
How long will they need herding be ready to sell off at the earliest? How easy are they to sell off at the end? Estimated selling final price/profit

With herder-communities issues across the country, how secure will the cows be with herders you use?

Thanks.

Samuk, Automaticmotors and UGBE634

We should not let this thread degenerate.

We can all accept that on history, as in anything in life, our perspectives and agendas may differ.

However, one important thing about Benin/Edo over the centuries is that we have been truly liberal and accepted diversity as a way of life. People mistake strong cultural values for conservatism but not necessarily so.

Many people became Edo by marriage, residence, acculturation, departure from Benin and return of descendants decades later, etc. Not only just by ancestry.

As an Empire and most important City in the South-Eastern part of West Africa (at least by about 1440) before the rise of Old Oyo in the 1680-90s, Benin had to welcome and assimilate people. Rome did same, especially during the reign of Julius Caesar with so many Gallic senators (and their families/followers) brought into the Roman Capitol. Every truly progressive empire did. The late surgeon and historian Dr E. Aisien documented the importance of Benin City at that time.

I am Edo because of this cultural diversity. I began commenting on history/culture threads on NL to be a bridge between Edo and Yoruba perspectives but I was roundly insulted by our SW people for trying to give a more objective perspective instead of a fixed tribal narrative. Because I truly believe that whether Benin gained from Yoruba or Yoruba gained from Benin in terms monarchy or culture, it shouldn't matter. Only the TRUTH should really matter.

I once volunteered to pay for DNA tests and analysis to establish the link or lack of. So having dual heritage doesn't imply partiality. In fact, it makes one more impartial. A lot of people are mixed but if family history is not well known (e.g. through traceable prominent lineage) most will not know their real heritage.

Moderation would not be a bad thing since none of us can be sure of the exact truth.

One thing I have seen over the past few decades is the rise of ethnic nationalism. It does not leave room for objectivity.

As for Usen, I said in a previous post that I would prefer not to delve into it. Because the uncompleted work once commissioned provided a different insight from the ones/versions now being debated. It was not completed so I won't say more on it.

We have been doing our bit to uncover history both on Edo and Yoruba side. And promoting culture through art. Not everything we can disclose.