₦airaland Forum

All Bible thumping Christians, why are you shying away from this thread? Are you afraid you might afterall have been chosen to hell? Why no response from Christians? My hope in starting this thread was to bring to nought the idea of "accept Christ or go to hell, for it will be your own fault if you didnt accept Christ."

So all fundamentalist christians - defend your religion!

Frosbel, you preach a wicked gospel!!! Please stop or drink of the wrath of God im just kidding.

But anyways, the Bible says:

"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever".

It is TORMENT not just DEATH.

Check out my new thread: "Christians do you believe this, if not Why with Bible Support"

[quote author=desiree_xo]frosbel the first thing you should know is that we humans have a choice...there is heaven and there is hell, the choice is ours..u either choose heaven or hell. It is not your obligation to feel sorry for the sinners or those your friends. Dont discriminate if not you'll be like the scribes and pharisees.

treat them well, tell them the truth, if they do not accept, pray to God concerning it, and leave the rest to him. Wiv this God would not hold you accountable for their souls or the good you could have done but didnt..

above all....live an exemplary lifestyle.."let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify your father who is in heaven".

heaven=eternal bliss
hell=eternal torment and torture forever and ever[/quote]No the choice is not ours!!! Please read 1 Peter and New Testament. the read West minster confession and Anglican articles and then just read the Bible. There are over 100 verses showing the choice is not ours - so why do you still continue to lie to your self. Even Paul asked: "Why then do you still find fault" after the doctrine of divine ordainment was given in the Bible. The answer was: "Who are you to reply against God". So please stop saying we have a choice. We dont. The Elect and the elect only are saved and go to heaven. The rest are cursed and go to hell. And make no mistake. Hell is a place of eternal torment for the BIBLE SAYS:

"And the SMOKE of THEIR TORMENT ascendeth up to God forever and ever".

Read your Bibles guys!

This is about if we choose Heave or Hell or if God ordains it

The Westminster Confession of Faith (1643) states:
God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death[/color]. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore, they who are elected . . . are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by His power. through faith, unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only[color=#990000]. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His Sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.[/color] (Chap. III — Articles I, III, VI and VII)
The Westminster Confession also states in Chapter X:
All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed time, effectually to call, by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God, taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and, by His almighty power, determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ: yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.

ANGLICAN STATEMENTS (Thirty Nine Articles)
"XVII. Of Predestination and Election. Predestination to Life is the everlasting purpose of God, whereby (before the foundations of the world were laid) he hath constantly decreed by his counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those whom he hath chosen in Christ out of mankind[color=#990000], and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation, as vessels made to honour. Wherefore, they which be endued with so excellent a benefit of God, be called according to God's purpose by his Spirit working in due season: they through Grace obey the calling: they be justified freely: they be made sons of God by adoption: they be made like the image of his only- begotten Son Jesus Christ: they walk religiously in good works, and at length, by God's mercy, they attain to everlasting felicity. "

It simply amuses me when some Christians ask you to choose God or repent or blah blah. It is clear that these people dont know what their Holy Book says. So instead of wasting your time and that of your readers let me once again reiterate:

1.) God said only A FEW WILL MAKE IT TO HEAVEN.
2.) 1 Peter 2:8 "A stone that causes men to stumble [/b]and [b]a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--WHICH IS WHAT THEY WERE DESTINED FOR.

So why are you asking us to "accept Christ"? I dont want to derail the the thread.

Again we see both in the Anglican books and the west minster confession and I quote:

The Westminster Confession of Faith (1643) states:
God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and AND OTHERS FOREORDAINED TO EVERLASTING DEATH. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore, they who are elected . . . are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by His power. through faith, unto salvation. NEITHER ARE ANY OTHER REDEEMED BY CHRIST, EFFECTUALLY CALLED, JUSTIFIED, ADOPTED, SANCTIFIED AND SAVED BUT THE ELECT ONLY. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His Sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice. (Chap. III — Articles I, III, VI and VII)
The Westminster Confession also states in Chapter X:
All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed time, effectually to call, by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God, taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and, by His almighty power, determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ: yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.

Again we see in the Anglican foundational books (the Thirty-Nine Articles) and again I quote:

"XVII. Of Predestination and Election. Predestination to Life is the everlasting purpose of God, whereby (before the foundations of the world were laid) he hath constantly decreed by his counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those whom he hath chosen in Christ out of mankind, and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation, as vessels made to honour. Wherefore, they which be endued with so excellent a benefit of God, be called according to God's purpose by his Spirit working in due season: they through Grace obey the calling: they be justified freely: they be made sons of God by adoption: they be made like the image of his only- begotten Son Jesus Christ: they walk religiously in good works, and at length, by God's mercy, they attain to everlasting felicity. "


So you see, some men did not choose hell and cannot chose otherwise as God had ordained it. I have shown you from the Bible and from theological establishments. Itis repulsive that God will choose to send innocent creatures who were created against their wills to hell. Why not just make us not exist anymore after death? Why the fire? Why Satan? Why hell?

oya oh, make I turn my comment around for FEAR of any form of divine retribution...I have pretty much given in to the Christian fear. From a logical point of view, Christianity does not really make sense but from a spiritual point of view, I guess it does and whatever deity that is out there knows what he is doing so without further ado here are the main points I want to get across:

* Christianity is not one of the most callous religions and one of the most vile things to ever exist. IT IS THE ONLY WAY TO GOD. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY.
* GOD himself said only few people will go to his heaven. Nobody knows why but it is unfortunate.
* The Bible says "and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up to God forever and ever". To me this is vile and unacceptable but I guess if it is in the Bible it is there.
* It is true that GOD DESIGNATED HELL for the majority of human beings over an apple and a devil he made. Again nobody really knows why. But that is the truth.

In as much as I dont really like Christianity as a religion, I had to make this comment for fear of divine retribution. I dont want God to send hurricane Sandy to my apartment!

Christianity is one of the most callous religions and one of the most vile things to ever exist. god himself said only few people will go to his heaven. Then he designated hell for the majority of human beings over an apple and a devil he made. Sorry but i am not resigning to fear, you can send me to hell!

deluded christians keep deceiving your selves; brainwashed lunatics - answer the questions posed. Your God of "love" made antichrist and 666? And made a lake of fire he will throw you into? Idiot christians!

1.) He made Satan, Anti Christ and all those evil demons. He even made a mark of the beast for us (so much love!) and APPROVED the devil to implement it on earth for all human beings. He will watch while everybody on earth (believer or unbeliever) get the so called mark of the beast; why did he come up with such a plain evil idea - so yes I dare say God is evil and callous.

2.) God and the church causes sexxxual repression. Genuine sexxxual attraction is labelled: "carnal lust of the flesh", "wicked lusts", "sexxxual immorality", "fornication", "adultry", etc. Not that sleeping around is the best idea but according to this malevolent hebrew deity to even look at a hot babe is a sure ticket to hell. The result? A rise in homosexxxuality! because of all the repression.

3.) He ordained that of all human beings, only a selected REMNANT will go to his heaven. He ORDAINED that most of man kind will be unbelievers and amongt believers, only a REMNANT thereof will go to heaven.

Are you now getting an idea of how wicked this religion is for all you christians.

I have had to put this post because recent events around the world. Boko Haram in Nigeria will give rise to National ID system where all Nigerians will be identified uniquely as has been done in india. Nobody will resist the system because everybody is afraid of Boko Haram.

I am just pissed off at the religion so I thought to rant.

hi guys, please what is the best way to prepare for Gragnet test? Is it SHL based?

Image123
To be explicit, you are wrong.

"He cannot sin, die or lie"
God sends human beings earthquakes etc, this is unjust in the eyes of men but because God is God, it cannot constitute sin. And this is off topic kinda. God often sent the Israelites to wars He knew they might lose in some cases before a final victory.

To conclude, God knows everything for sure!

I used to think believers cannot lose salvation but after further research, I have been slightly persuaded otherwise. Look at the parable of the sower, that parable is referring to believers; ultimately God does what He wants with human beings.

Whilst Calvinism is very comforting,it may not be accurate after all. I agree certain believers will not lose salvation; others who fell on the "bad soil" may indeed lose.

I am basing my precept on the parable of the sower and also playing advocate here,

Yes believers can lose salvation. Calvinism does not hold much weight; all in all God knows who is heaven bound, who is hell bound and may be even believers who will lose salvation if not He will not be al knowing; thats why it says:

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God"
"knowing from the beginning who will betray Him" etc.

test post.

@5solas
im back now with full force :-)

, if one ignores the context of the verses and the whole tenor of scripture, one will naturally come to your conclusion, which I think is wrong. I believe Okeyxyz hit the nail on the head.

If you were drawing this distinction between believers and unbelievers (the elects and non-elects), I will be behind you and help you roll out the verses

The issue here is not context, God knows English more than us; Judas was a disciple but hated.

You are the one that determining the level of fellowship with God. Some serve him with fear, others relate to him by love.

Wrong, God determines who He will save and He also determines those who will persevere - read the parable of the sower/ seeds.

@simplymee
You made sense in your post; thanks!

@sweetnecta
Yes, im saying there is high probability others were hated or who knows!

okeyxyz
it says the disciple God loved not the one He loved the most.

If John is the loved disciple, it means the rest are not.

If it said the disciple He loved the most, your argument will be correct.

Simple deductive reasoning.

you reject the truth. Prepare for your portion in the lake of fire.

I found out that there are actualy disciples God loves and the collorary is that God hates the rest of us:

John 21:7, 20; 13:23; 19:26; 20:2 (In all these verses ONLY John is referred to as the chosen loved disciple).

So are a lot of Christians wasting their time and are unknowingly hell bound?

Responses from christians only.

@kieryn
you have just mumbled & not really said anything.

the christians are unfortunately offering weak argument.

unfortunately not everyone who sings and dance praises or worships God. To entail in Godly worship involves a walk with God in holiness and purity.

This is weak. God had from eternity past decreed who will obey Him and who will not. The Bible says "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."

So even if the friend is not a true worshipper, then its not his fault.

I go about everyday living my life - even though i profess some christianity, i dont believe the deity is there watching over me. i have no evidence to that effect.

I am a Calvinist.

I am sharing here, my statement of faith with nairalanders.

T - Total Depravity - The first point asserts that the entire or TOTAL human being--body and soul, intellect and will, etc.--is fallen and that everyone is born spiritually dead, helpless, and passive; indeed, everyone is worse than volitionally dead or unable to desire spiritual good but is actually enslaved to sin, positively and actively hostile to the things of the Spirit (Calvinists cite, e.g., John. 1:13; 8:43, 47; 10:26; 12:37-40; 18:37; Romans. 7:18; 8:5-8; 1 Corinthians. 2:9-14).

U - Unconditional Election - The second point inescapably follows from the first: since one is born totally depraved and enslaved to sin, one's ELECTION cannot be dependent or CONTINGENT on any spiritually worthy actions one commits. According to this point, God predestines or chooses to soften the hard, sin-enslaved hearts of certain fallen individuals and liberate them from their death not because of any merit they have but despite their demerits--i.e., He ELECTS to change their hearts (and thereby join them to Christ and His saving work) DESPITE the fact that they hate God and oppose Him and have hard hearts, not soft hearts, and have sin-enslaved wills, not free wills. Thus, believers have no reason to boast about themselves or their own actions: the only thing that differentiates them from Judas, Esau, or others who never respond in faith is that God gave them grace that He withheld from such reprobates (Calvinists cite, e.g., Ezek. 11:19-20; 36:26-27; Rom. 9:11-18; 1 Cor. 4:7; Eph. 2:8-10; cf. Jn. 1:13; 15:16; Acts 13:48; 16:14; 18:27; Phil. 2:13).


L Limited Atonement - This point says that while Christ's blood--indeed, His entire life, death, and resurrection--is infinitely INTENSIVE in saving power and thus unlimited in one sense, it is not infinitely EXTENSIVE and is thus limited, not universal, in the extent of its application; for while everyone CONDITIONALLY or "provisionally" shares in Christ's life, death, and resurrection (thus, if everyone believed, everyone would be joined or married to Christ), only members of Christ's body or bride or flock (ELECT believers) actually share in His blood (Calvinists cite, e.g., Jn. 10:11, 15, 26; 17:9; cf. 6:37, 39; 17:2, 6, 24).

I Irresistable Grace - This is virtually a synonym for Luther's slogan "grace alone" (sola gratia) and is logically implied by points "T" and "U" above. It teaches that God's INWARD CALL is perfectly EFFECTUAL or SUFFICIENT--a hard, fleshly, sinful heart need not add anything to God's grace, such as "co-operation," for this special call or grace is invincible, overpowering all hatred and melting all opposition (Calvinists cite, e.g., Jn. 3:6-. Here Calvinists distinguish God's inward, effectual call--i.e., IRRESISTIBLE GRACE or sufficient, effective grace--from His outward call, which is simply His commandments written on tablets of stone. The latter is eminently resistible, insufficient, and ineffective to give life to a dead soul or liberate a sin-enslaved heart (e.g., Acts 7:51; 13:39; Rom. 8:3).

P Perseverance of the Saints - This is not the idea that no matter what a believer does he or she cannot lose his or her salvation but the idea that " . . . He who began a good work in you will perfect it . . " (Phil. 1:6 [NASB]; cf., e.g., Jn. 6:37, 39; 10:28-29; Rom. 8:31-39)--i.e., the idea that whenever God creates faith in our hearts and thereby joins us to Christ and His saving work, He will sustain that faith, that saving relationship with Christ, causing us, by His grace, to persevere in faith. Again here is the divine promise: "And I will cause them to obey all my laws and statutes"

@tolu
I am not actually agnostic; I was just playing devils advocate - I am a dedicated Christian determined to eliminate false doctrines of free will choice in salvation. I hope I have been able to do that with this thread.

NB: Agnostic means ppl who acknowledge a God, but do not actively live by the God.

@Image123
Further Proof: Paul, speaking by the Holy Ghost on pentecost after being asked why the disciples were speaking in other tongues said: "In the last days I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, "

Then He said this:

""For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call"

The promise is therefore not for the world/ all but for the Body of Christ.

Again in Isaiah, "He was bruised for our iniquities". "Our" is not "all".

"Depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels"

Matthew 13

The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."

37He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

40"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42[b]They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.[/b] 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Image123

Does not the Bible say that Esau & Jacob before they had done anything good or bad, that God loved one and hated the other? Go figure.

there is no human freewill in the Bible. I speculate we are programmed robots,

'choose you this day who you will serve'

This statement was given by God who already knew the outcome. "Of the fruit of knowledge of good & evil thou shalt no eat" was also issued but God already knew that they will eat it & therefore it didnt take God by suprise. I personally dont believe there is freewill in the Bible. If for instance I have been destined to hell, there isnt much I can do about it!

1. What's the point of evangelism if a sect of people are already 'chosen/ordained' as you call it. (What they should enter the kingdom anyway, are they not ordained to?) Why go and preach the gospel to EVERY creature, or every can mean 'not all' as well.

Evangelism is necessary because men do not know those who have been destined to life - only God knows. Like toluxa1 has said, anywhere the Word is preached, as many as have been destined to receive shall receive. Even after salvation, God already knows those who will backslide & those who will keep on or else He would not be omni scient/ all knowing!

John 15v7. He said 'If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

this is irrelevant to the discussion.

What is salvation? it is the filling of the spirit of the believer with the Holy Ghost such that the believer disappears/ dies (in spirit).  You will understand this statement if you have revelation knowledge of your salvation.

"For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God."Colossians 3:3

This fusion of shekina glory with the spirit of the believer cannot be reversed as God cannot breach his everlasting covenant made with the Trinity.

For more details, read Charles Spurgeon:

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0277.htm

After salvation, the believer is not responsible for his righteousness and therefore cannot lose salvation on that ground as he was saved by grace and the Holy Ghost will not let him sin on purpose unless there are specific lessons to be learnt from it.