₦airaland Forum

Bidam: Exactly my point. The teachings of Jesus, the Council of Jerusalem, and other New Testament teachings (John 1:16-17, Acts 13:39, Romans 2:25-29, 8:1-4, 1 Corinthians 9:19-21, Galatians 2:15-16, Ephesians 2:15) make it clear that Christians are not required to follow the Old Testament rules about crimes and punishments, warfare, slavery, diet, circumcision, sacrifice, feast days, Sabbath observance, ritual cleanness, etc.

All laws that have nothing to do with conscience are done away with including tithes

Christians still look to the Old Testament scripture for moral and spiritual guidance (2 Timothy 3:16-17). But when there seems to be a conflict between Old Testament laws and New Testament principles, we must follow the New Testament because it represents the most recent and most perfect revelation from God (Hebrews 8:13, 2 Corinthians 3:1-18, Galatians 2:15-20).But I don't think tithing is one of them.

haba brother you dont think tithing is one of them? you quoted 28 references and you couldn't give me one to support tithing for christians?

there is never a conflict.the old has given way to the new.the old testament is for learning.without studying it,you can't understand the new.

However, freedom from the Old Testament Law is not a license for Christians to relax their moral standards. The moral and ethical teachings of Jesus and His apostles call for even greater self-discipline than those of the Old Testament (Matthew 5:21-22, 27-28, 31-32, 33-34, 38-42, 43-48, 7:1-5, 15:18-19, 25:37-40, Mark 7:21-23, 12:28-31, Luke 12:15, 1 Corinthians 13:1-13, Galatians 5:19-21, James 1:27, 2:15-16, 1 John 3:17-19).

You're right here.We have freedom but such freedom is not license and that is what we have to remind ourselves of.Gal 5:22-23 enumerates the fruits of the spirit which God expects us to manifest as his children and this kills all love of sin or depravity in us

Bidam: sori..about that, so in the 613 laws i believe the 10 commandments are included with the summarry of the 2 Jesus gave...are you trying to tell us we are free to steAl, kill, and covet since we ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE LAW?

Romans 13:8-10
''Owe no man any thing,but to love one another:for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.For this,Thou shalt not commit adultery,Thou shalt not kill,Thou shalt not steal,Thou shalt not bear false witness,thou shalt not covet:and if there be any commandment,it is briefly comprehended in this saying,namely,Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.Love worketh no ill to his neighbour:therefore love is the fulfilling of the law''

Because i love you bro Bidam,i'll not steal from you,kill you or covet your possesions

Bidam: Colossians 2:16-19 'Let no man therefore judge you. As the law was nailed to the cross (Col_2:14), let no man compel you to keep its ordinances.
In meat, or in drink. By requiring you to eat only what the Jewish law prescribes (Lev. 7:10-27). See Rom_14:17; 1Co_8:8; Heb_9:10. Compare 1Ti_4:3.
Or in respect of a holy day. Such as the Passover, Pentecost, etc.
Or of the new moon. The monthly observances (Num_28:11).
Or of the Sabbath day. The Jewish Sabbath had passed away with the law.
Which are a shadow of things to come. The body, or substance, which casts the shadow is Christ. We are to pay no attention to the shadows since Christ has come, but to observe what we find in him and the gospel…….’ Mr sabatherian as you can see tithes was not mentioned in all the passages by paul.
now the qweshion begging for answer is that why not..since all the other ordinances were CATEGORICALLY STATED BY PAUL?

there are 613 laws in the torah.the ones you listed,count and see if they are up to 20.So you expected Paul to list all the laws one after the other before you know they are abolished? have you heard of the word:EXAMPLE before?

See Acts 15:19-20
''wherefore my sentence is,that we trouble not them,which from among the gentiles are turned to God:but that we write unto them,that they abstain from pollutions of idols,and from fornication,and from things strangled,and from blood''

Acts 15:28-29
''for it seemed good to the Holy Ghost,and to us,to lay upon you no greater burden than these NECESSARY things:that ye abstain from meats offered to idols,and from blood,and from things strangled,and from fornication:from which if ye keep yourselves,ye shall do well.fare ye well''

please point out where you were asked to retain tithes there

please i'm not a SABBATARIAN.I just used the it in my parable to you and you know this.Also bro Bidam no name calling.i assume we agreed on that

Joagbaje: Did they fight the war in Salem? . The relationship and encounter between Abraham and Melchizedek was spiritual . So lets drop this umbilical history .sbrahsm gave tithes and recieved blessing from the priest . The bible is clear on that.

I've told you earlier i was dropping it so here goes.

My point is that a king would rather be blessed by a prophet. Just as Abraham blessed the king of Gerrar . Not the other way round. Melchizedek as a king has no blessing to give to Abraham. The bible says he that is blessed is lesser than the blesser ..

no argument though you skipped my question asking if you consider the king of Gerar a believer

Why do you think he wasnt. What do you say about this scripture ?

Exodus 18:12-13
And Jethro, Moses 'father in law, took a burnt offering and sacrifices for God:and Aaron came, and all the elders of Israel, to eat bread with Moses' father in law before God.
And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses sat to judge the people:and the people stood by Moses from the morning unto the evening.

My brother,The Midianites were a pagan people with numerous gods and you think the man who was the priest functioning in the temple of their gods was a part time worshipper of God almighty? and you imagine God would accept such? He sacrificed to the God who delivered isreal from Egypt because he was awed by the acts of God.See his confession in Ex 18:11

''NOW I KNOW that the LORD is greater than all gods:for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly he was above them''

The bible didn't call Jethro a believer,please don't ascribe that to him because he sacrificed to God in the assembly of the isrealites.

God had several people who worshipped him yet they were not Jews. Job was not a Jew. He and his friends worshiped Jehovah. God never leaves the world without a witness .

The question is was a Job a believer before Abraham? after Noah and his family,the next God worshiper mentioned by the bible was Abraham.After all the acts in Egypt,a lot of people in the surrounding cultures believed God for instance Rahab became a believer without any body's preaching simply because she heard of the mighty acts of God in liberating the Jews.

Paying tithes is not based on the law .praying is not based on the law, the law was only a reference .

i beg to differ sir.Tithes was instituted in the law of moses that is why you quote Mal 3:8-10 to enforce it.Don't compare it to prayer.

Tithing is a spiritual principle in the kingdom of God as well as other principles such as offering, alms giving ,prayer etc.

Principles in Gods kingdom transcend dispensations

you strongly protested my reference to non biblical sources to explain why Abraham tithed,pls don't bring this spiritual principle thing into the discussion.i stand on the bible and my bible NEVER called tithe a spiritual principle.

Bidam: leave sabbath for another thread..lets stick to tithing

Alright we'll leave it.However Tithe is a part of the law and it will be difficult to discuss it without touching others but let's see if we can do that.

Image123: it's not a cult or a private inbox, it's a public forum.

Thank God you know.So feel free to contribute where you feel you know but PLEASE focus on the ball and also PLEASE avoid using abusive or condescending comments.they are offensive

Thanks and God bless you

Bidam: Well in the new dispensation and grace..tithing is not a legal requirement/regulation either..It is a matter of choice between you and God. you and your likes are the ones juxtaposing and extrapolating scriptures to say what it isn't saying.Like i said nobody is pointing a gun at you to tithe. But for a foolish believer to say that since i tithe i am under a curse is the highest form of hypocrisy in christianity.

@the bolded,you called it a choice.would God punish me for it even when it's a matter of choice?

Also is it not more FOOLISH and HYPOCRITICAL for a believer not to obey the laws of the SABBATH even when God himself obeyed it during creation?

Image123: There's no aggression or anger, that's more common with antitithers. I'd skip, the argument is baseless to me.

Good for you then.
No one invited you
cheers

Bidam: ok.since you are a NT Believer why not observe the sabbath..I think heb 4 talks about a sabbath rest...am no sabbatherian though but i believe all days are sanctified holy and a day of rest should be set aside where you can seek God and rest...i do take time out of my busy schedules to rest don't you?

My brother,i told you i'm not under the law.you're the one who keeps a law of Moses believing that if you dont keep it,Devourers will attack your finances and i showed you another one for which God said we shouldn't wait for devourers but we should stone you to death ourselves.God already chose his own SABBATH and if you can't keep it,don't alter it.leave it as it is

Rom 10:4
''For Christ is THE END of the law for unrighteousness to everyone that believeth''

Gal 3:13-14
''Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law,being made a curse for us:for it is written,Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ:that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith''

Bro Bidam,i don't need to keep any law of moses to be saved neither do i need to keep any law of moses to be blessed.My salvation,wealth and riches are fulfillment of promises made to Abraham that become mine because of the sacrificial death of Christ on the cross.


See Ex 31:17 still on the Sabbath
''It is a sign between me and the children of isreal FOR EVER:for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth,and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed''

This shows SABBATH too didn't start with the law.Infact it's the first ordinance God instituted when he created the world.

Bidam: funny analogy. Do you consider the sabbath HOLY or a day of REST?

Ex 31:15
''Six days may work be done:BUT in the seventh is the SABBATH of REST,HOLY to the LORD:whosoever DOETH ANY WORK in the SABBATH day,HE SHALL SURELY BE PUT TO DEATH''.

My brother it is a day of rest from all work and the bible means ALL work and also a very HOLY day to the LORD.

Ex 31:16
''Wherefore the children of Isreal shall keep the SABBATH, to observe the SABBATH throughout their generations, for a PERPERTUAL COVENANT.

My brother,the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob NEVER toyed with the SABBATH

Bidam: bro...candour the truth of the matter is that i get disheartened when christians say they were tithing before and had to stop because they find it inconsistent with scriptures..It is just like the atheist arguments that they decided to convert from being a christian to atheists because they believe a lie that the bible is just another story book full of fairy tales...the truth is these so called atheist WERE NEVER CHRISTIANS TO START WITH. Faith in the kingdom is borne out of LOVE FOR GOD and the things that pleases HIM. If in your own opinion you feel giving(collections) is your best you can offer GOD so be it..shalom

my brother Bidam,reference to the bolded.imagine the following scenario

A christian has been observing SABBATH as a very important ordinance of God for 25 years because his church said Ex 20:8-11 commands it and Ex 31:15 stipulates punishment for it.He started studying scriptures on his own and understands that a christian saved by the blood of Christ is NOT MEANT to observe SABBATH.

what would your advice be? he continues observing SABBATH since he's been doing it a long time or he starts living in the freedom which Christ death bought for him?

reflect on this and give a very honest answer.

This is based on my belief that YOU'RE NOT a Sabbatharian.If you are let me know

God bless you

Bidam: OK.let's start our conversation. where is it stated in the NT that we shuldn't tithe?

hmm.......Bidam are you sure you want to discuss this? you and i had this discussion between Feb 13 and Feb 16 on this same thread.see what your final words to me were.the posts are between pages 5 and 8

Bidam: bro...go back to your first love..your pastor may not have all the answers and i don't either..but truth is tithing is a spiritual principle...don't let any one deceive with hypocritical teachings and doctrines of demons..you have been right for the past 25yrs only for you to start straying from the path of truth..if truly God spoke to you not to tithe anymore, then i will rest my case..ur personal search might have been mixed up with heretic modern day teachings that tithing is not biblical..agreed the NT emphasis on tithing is to say the least skeletal but that doesn't negate the fact that it wasn't practised by the early church..Ola gave scriptures on that only for Goshen to say otherwise..may God help us..

You confessed you dont have all the answers,do you now have them?

i'm on my way out now and wont be back until 6pm.we can meet then my brother

thanks

Bidam: my bro..go siddon..did all the scriptures you quoted categorically state we should ABSTAIN from paying tithes? SMH.

Hi Bidam,you see why you should always take your time to read through before commenting? pls go through the discussion starting from where Joagbaje and i started and you'll see the flow.

I tell you this makes discussion with you quite laborious sometimes because you shoot off the trajectory of discussion almost everytime.

If you dont understand the flow hence cannot contribute,pls keep mum.Joagbaje fully does so pls let us be.

The discussion has been sweetened with maturity and mutual respect,PLEASE DON'T POISON IT

Thanks

ajadrage: Well, I wouldn't want to join issues with the statement that Nigeria will be named among the world powers by the year 2020, or any other future time. However, methinks that for spiritually minded people, the issue of Nigeria being amongst the major power brokers in global politics should be less of a priority. The present system is a decaying system, and it is passing away, giving way to a kingdom, and a King who will exert rule in love, justice and power.

Being among the power brokers in a global politics that has lost all sense of values, morality, justice, and humaneness is not a prize that children of the most High should crave for in these days of the end, this is especially more so as we see that even the power brokers of the contemporary international system can hardly claim immunity from the everyday existential challenges of economic and social security, poverty, climate change, amongst others despite advancements in technology and infrastructure.

However, as our individual hearts are different and uniquely distinct, so our desires are. But we should be mindful that our desires are in harmony with the will of our creator. He wrote the story, even He knows how the story ends, and this he has so graciously shown to faithful humankind. . .

Priceless write up full of wisdom.

Image123: oga, every priest was a son of Levi. but not every son of Levi was a priest. Every son of Levi was entitled to the tenth, it's their inheritance.

Mr oga that is in your own mind.immediately God called Aaron to be a priest,he was set apart from the remainder of the tribe of Levi.If God demarcated them,why are you trying to lump them together because of tithe?

LEVITES OWN 10% of agric and livestock increase of children of isreal.PRIESTS OWN 10% of the increase of the Levites(10% given by the children of isreal).Read your bible again Num 18:26-28,Nehemiah 10:38 then read my previous posts....slowly this time.

No amount of aggression and anger from you will change what is written in the 2 references above so sit still and be calm.it'll do you a lot of good

Image123: Whatsoever was written aforetime was written for OUR learning, Abraham's tithe to priest M was written. Priests are levites by default, what's with the subtle play on words?

Nehemiah 10:38
''and the priest the son of Aaron shall be with the Levites,when the Levites take tithes:and the Levites shall bring up the tithe of the tithes unto the house of our God,to the chambers into the treasure house''

the bible clearly demarcated between a levite and the priest.see the in the parable of Jesus in
Luke 10:31-32
''and by chance there came down a certain priest that way:and when he saw him,he passed by on the other side.and a likewise a Levite,when he was at the place,came and looked on him,and passed by on the other side

Scripture sees them differently.you can go ahead and accuse the bible and our saviour Jesus Christ of a subtle play on words my brother not me

Joagbaje: It's not biblical. Besides ,they didnt fight the war in Salem. Abraham owes Melchizedek no obligation as a king. And if anyone should pray for the other it should have been Abraham praying or blessing king of Salem .

Remember how God instructed king of Gerar o go o Abraham for prayer.

Genesis 20:7
Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live:and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.


A king has no divine power to bless a PROPHET of God.

I NEVER disputed the priethood of Melchizedek.I NEVER disputed that Abraham was a prophet.mine position is based on the historical fact that tithes was a royal tax to which Abraham was LIABLE being a citizen of that region.However i have agreed to drop this line for the fact that the bible singled out only Abraham's story out of the myriad of cultures prevalent @ that time and i wont put secular history there.

Of course God had to appear to the man to save Sarah and the guy knew it was God because the man had an idea of God.I'm sure you're not trying to say the king of Gerar was a worshiper of the same God you worship?

God always have ministers in every generation. Remember Moses father Inlaw was a priest of God . He never leave the world without a witness or a prophet or priest.

my brother, Jethro was NEVER a priest of Jehovah Elyon.He was the priest of midian, a culture having NUMEROUS pagan gods and the midianites were NEVER reckoned as people of God.He became awed by all the acts of God in Egypt(just like pharoah became subdued by the acts of God) described by Moses hence his declaration in Exodus 18:11
''Now i know(If he was God's priest,shouldn't he have known before now?) that the LORD is greater than all gods(including his own gods):for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly he was above them''

there after he took a burnt offering and sacrificed to God in awe of the God he now knew.Also hear what Joshua said concerning their ancestors including Abraham
Joshua 24:2
''and Joshua said unto all the people,thus saith the LORD God of isreal,your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time even Terah,the father of Abraham,and the father of Nachor:and they served other gods.

We know God called Abraham alone out of idolatory so which priest of the most high was involved?Does it mean God had called somebody earlier that the bible forgot to mention? we shouldn't make the bible say what it doesn't say

Not exactly but similar . The bible commands those who function in ministry to be taken care of.

1 Timothy 5:17
Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

The "honor" here is honorarium. Which has to

The church is not following Old Testament structure . But the Old Testament structure reveals certain spiritual principles . Anyone who function in ministry such as staff or officials a kinds of levite in the church today and they deserve to be paid .

my brother you go against what the bible tells you and i.If you want to follow the old testatment structure of tithes,then it must be followed to the letter Deut 27:26 says ''cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them.and all the people shall say amen'' this was echoed by james in james 2:10.

The jewish christians were still keeping the law but gentile christians were only asked to do the following after the jerusalem council met.see what James said under the unction of the Holy Spirit in Acts 15:24

''forasmuch as we have heard that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words,subverting your souls saying,ye must be circumcised,and keep the law:unto whom we gave no such commanment:

Acts 15:28-29
''for it seemed good to the holy Ghost and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:That ye abstain from meats offered to idols,and from blood,and from things strangled,and from fornication:from which if ye keep yourselves,ye shall do well.fare ye well

If the church is not following old testament structure like you said above,then it should stop alluding to old testament laws to bind members to cough out money.If Tithes have to be taken then it should be given to the rightful owners:the LEVITES NOT PASTORS

Joagbaje: There was structure of distribution and welfare among them. There's structure in the church today.

Also my brother,you agree there was structure and distribution of the tithes among the levites.The structure you said is in the church today,does it distribute the tithes solely among the levites bearing in mind that the levites are represented by the choir,ushers,cleaners,sunday school teachers etc if we assume that the church today mirrors the temple in jerusalem.

Joagbaje: Satan the enemy seem to be using some people to attack leadership in the kingdom of God. What has church structure got to do with emotional attachment? Of course a. Pastor leads people to christ. And feed them with word of God . But when people feel sad at the death of a Pastor who has affected their lives or if such pastor get transferred ,they miss him, some may even cry . That's natural human feeling. Why blame structure of leadership for such. In the bible days ,natural human emotions were expressed freely in such cases.

John 11:35
Jesus wept.

John 16:5-6
But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.

Acts 20:37-38
And they all wept sore, and fell on Paul's neck, and kissed him, Sorrowing most of all for the words which he spake, that they should see his face no more. And they accompanied him unto the ship.

you're right bro Joagbaje.Even in the work place,we can get emotionally attached to colleagues or bosses that have impacted us so much we feel sad when they are gone.

The point which frosbel tries to bring out is that the structure revolves round a particular individual and his family and direction is lost once that particular individual is no longer around.If Paul was such a leader,imagine what would have happened when he was arrested in Jerusalem and sent to Rome.Christianity thrived in his absence not because people feared him but simply because he had taught the people how to feed themselves from the word.

His absence though painful didn't affect the church despite the intense persecution from the Romans.

Christianity needs to stop focusing on MOG's and start looking again unto Jesus,the author and finisher of our faith.

Joagbaje: There was structure of distribution and welfare among them. There's structure in the church today.

This answer still begs the question which is who owns the tithes of the people? the Levite or the priest?

The levite tithe was strictly for the levite. The feast was a different tithe

ok.we agree here the tithe was strictly for the levite.

Can an earthly king be greater in the spirit than a prophet. Who should bless who. King or prophet? Kings bow down to prophets.

Hebrews 7:7
Without a doubt, the inferior is blessed by the superior.


Is it not absurd to thunk that Abraham our father of faith was inferior spiritualy to the office of a king? What gave maelchizedek edge over Abraham was his priestly office not the earthly kingly office.

Psalms 110:4
The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent,Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

My statement on this was not a disputation of the priesthood of Melchizedek.It was about the fact that kings in the middle east around 2000BC that Abraham lived regularly collected a royalty tax also called tithes from agric produce,clothing materials,spoils of war etc but i guess i should drop this point as it has little bearing on the trajectory of our discussion

Its personal choice what we do with the rest. I have done that couple of times as God leads .

i respect your decision not to follow Abraham's example in refusing to take the 90%.

however my 2nd question which you didn't touch was ''Then who was receiving the tithes of Abraham's regular farm and livestock business.was it Melchizedek too? if not which priest''?

the message is simple: GRACE AND LAW CANNOT MIX

God bless you plenty Bro Goshen

eldoradoxx: Dangote is a tither! In Islam, Tithe is in form of Zakat and it is mandatory for every muslim to pay it as commanded by Allah. Besides, tithe does not only add to ur wealth but ur total well being. The bible injunction that instituted tithe said that if u pay ur tithe God will remove every devourer from u. Devourer is not necessarily poverty, but things that bring unhappiness to u or make u waste ur wealth. It could be that strange illness that defiles cure that one labours with secretly and sheds secret tears, it could be people cheating and stealing from u, it could be a lot of things.

in that case Islamic tithe must be the deal since Dangote is 107 times richer than Oyedepo(from Forbes figures).you better come and lets drop our bibles pick up the koran and jet to mecca to stone the devil.

Men, erroneous doctrines have really taken root.so so sad

Goshen360: @ Brother Candour,

Grace and truth be multiplied to you. I saw same also and even mentioned it in one of my past comments; can't remember the thread though. Read my EDITED version as I read when I first read it.

''Christianity started as a movement in Jerusalem,it got to Greece and became a philosophy, got to Rome and became an institution, spread all over Europe and became a culture......got to America and became an Enterprise..a BIG ENTERPRISE.. got to NIGERIA and became SPIRITUALITY...but Christ is coming back for a movement''

....that's why you often read even on this forum some folks (names withheld) always mention and talk about SPIRITUAL PRINCIPLES

@ Brother Frosbel, Keep doing the works of an evangelist bro. God bless you.

God bless you my brother.i am very wary of this spiritual principles thing because it is only subject to the whims and caprices of the vision-er.let me share an experience

A poor vegetable seller whom my mum always patronized asked my dad for a loan of 10k in 2001.when quizzed on why she needed it she said it was to purchase anointed handkerchief to ward off accident and premature death for the year.This announcement was made from the pulpit and every body kept mum so as not to challenge the 'anointing'just imagine!!

an igbo proverb goes thus ''eneke nti oba the bird said since men have learnt to shoot without missing,he too has learnt to fly without perching'' so me too have learnt to study my bible well since men have learnt how to use the same bible to lead droves of people to destruction (don't mind me going local o).wisdom is profitable to direct so says the book of proverbs.

We Christians must always get the truth of the gospel out to the world.It's a job we can't retire from.i only implore us to do it peaceable and without rancour as much as possible.

God bless you

Joagbaje: The levite were full time ministers . So they were entitled to support and welfare. The choir ushers didn't fall into this category but if they are full time ministry as choir etc . They are entitled to support . Actually some churches have choir members ,intrumentalists etc on payroll. People who function as staff in the church fall in this category.

my brother,they shouldn't be on payroll according to the bible Deut 14:28-29,Numbers 18:21,THEY OWN THE TITHES and they pay a tithe of the tithes they receive to the priests whom you refer to as pastors today.

That was a special tithe used as love feast every 3 yrs. it's different from the annual general tithe brought to the priest for the work or the sanctuary,

Deut 14:22
''Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed,that the field bringeth forth year by year.''

Deut 14:23
''and thou shalt eat before the lord thy God,in the place which he shall choose to place his name there......''

it was a yearly feast.

Tithing is a spiritual thing not civil obligation. It wasnt done to kings. God would have commaded it to be brought to kings palace and not the sanctuary . He gave it to the high priest because of the blessing attached to it. And the high priest blessed him. And earthly king has no anointing to bless a prophet . Abraham was a prophet. Pls don't use human mind . Discuss scripturally

my brother don't for once assume tithes is peculiar to isreal or the Jew.It was in existence before Abraham was born and it has always been 10%.It was a mark of honour to the sovereign.I do not for one moment deny that melchisedek was a priest of the most high.however Abraham was still subject to the laws and customs of the middle east as isreal was not in existence then.If he didn't meet melchisedek,he was bound to pay that tithe to the sovereign in charge of that region.

we are discussing scripturally my brother but i'll never forget the bible events happened at specific points and times in history with accurate dates.It wasn't done in a vacuum

It was his possession . Naturally the winner takes the booty. It's by choice he declined and only took out the tithe

that means we should also give away the remaining 90% if we are to follow his example as he didn't take them.Then who was receiving the tithes of his regular farm livestock increases.was it Melchizedek too? if not which priest?

debosky: The structures have not caused that, unless you also want to accuse the movement structure of the early church of causing Annanias and Sapphira's greed.

Christianity remains an individual relationship with God - if individuals fail to do so, it's quite silly to blame the structure for that.

I don't dispute that the institution can have an effect, but we cannot ignore the primary responsibility of the believer.

My brother,examples abound on the harm the structures described by frosbel cause e.g

Guyana tragedy of Rev Jim Jones 1978
Ugandan massacre by church for restoration of the ten commandments 2000

Even very recently,our own Rev king.

when i talk of simplicity,i didn't mean we should start traveling on donkeys or writing on scrolls.The gospel was preached without glorifying any apostle no matter how close to Jesus and that is the simplicity we are talking about.

My dear if only 120 holy ghost filled believers turned Jerusalem upside down,don't you think Nigeria should have attained a state of utopia with the millions that throng the worship centers? Christ has told us only few will find the straight road to life but our churches today prefer a crowd of financial members.

we need to think about the vulnerable members.even if they refuse to study for themselves,it behooves you and i that are fortunate to know to tell them

Joagbaje: Same principles still abide today. It's not the payee that determines utilization

If it's the same principles,then the Choir,Ushers,cleaners,etc in church today will represent the Levites while ministers will represent the priests who receive 10% from the tithes of the Levites Numbers 18:26-28 and Nehemiah 10:38.This is even assuming the church is a modern form of Judaism which we all know it CAN NEVER BE otherwise Christ died in vain.

There were 2 kinds of tithes . There was the general ones send yearly to the temple . The giver has no part in it . There was the fellowship one every three years . It is sheared with strangers ,priests and the poor

The giver eats the first tithe with his family while not forsaking the levite. Deut 14:22-27.The compassion tithe which is done every 3 years Deut 14:28-29 is given to the Levites,widows,orphans,Strangers.

Far from it. Abraham tithed to Melchizedek not because he was a king ,but rather because he was a minister of God, "high priest" and he blessed Abraham . Can earthly king bless a man ? Melchizedek was greater than Abraham spiritualy

i maintain he did because he was the king.Note he didn't tithe of his own possessions.It was tithes of all the spoils of war.if you think he did,that must mean he carried all his tithes(and they must be large because he had great possessions) with him to the war to rescue Lot and the captives.you remember he met Melchizedek when RETURNING from the war.Gen 14:17

This is without prejudice to the fact that he was a priest:a picture of Christ Jesus

Joagbaje: It is not the payee that determines what money is used for. God didn't say tithe should be giving to the poor. Which poor did Abraham give his tithe to.

Yeah,you're right it's not the payee that determines utilization but God who doesn't leave his children in the dark about necessary things already explained how it was to be used.It's fully explained in Deut 14:22-29 and reminder(note:REMINDER) given in Mal 3:8-10.

General Tithe was expressly said to be given to the needy,widows,strangers,orphans and Levites who were also incapacitated from fending for themselves or having a business because of the work of the Temple and so qualified as those who NEEDED assistance.Deut 14:28-29

Abraham didn't tithe to the poor.He tithed to the king of that area because it was customary to give a tenth of spoils of war etc to the sovereign.it was simply royalty tax.like that paid by our Oil companies to the government today.This is well documented history available in countless encyclopedias and history books detailing the history of cultures of the middle east.

I believe being Christians doesn't mean we suspend access to secular knowledge which we all got anyway if truly we went to school.I implore you to check it up

@frosbel2,I saw the following sometime ago and it really describes the journey of the church

''Christianity started as a movement in Jerusalem,it got to Greece and became a philosophy, got to Rome and became an institution, spread all over Europe and became a culture......got to America and became an Enterprise..a BIG ENTERPRISE.. but Christ is coming back for a movement''

Unfortunately it's the enterprise version that is spreading like wild fire all over black Africa and particularly Nigeria and people assume the church is waxing stronger.

I believe until the church gets back to the simplicity of the apostles and the early church,we'll just have large numbers in our pews but few souls to present to the Lord.

Yooguyz: alright guys party is over! *blows beegle*get something doing
alexleo.frosbel.ola,pastor-chris-look-like you guyz have all won the argument for today!
I formally hand a matchet.gun and cutlass as your medals
the gun goes to frosbel. I think alexleo should get cutlass

haba gun and cutlass? even the apostles disputed but it didn't result in fisticuffs.Acts 15:7
i just DECORUM will be maintained

deemehjee: Mathew 5:17-19..Did Jesus come 2 condemn d Law or hold it tru..u guys shud read ur galatians,ephesians n 1corinthians well mayb romans z 2 hard 4 u 2 comprehend..
4rm d beginin 2 d end,u can c d trickstry of d devil wch i term hs FOOLISHNESS..d thread z based on baseless misinterprtation of d Bible,u knw Christ told us abt He separatin wolves 4rm sheep..2 d author n hs disciples,am sure u adults arn't xtians..at al..n 2 doz wu knw d truth buh 4 d fun kp on writin lies..d'u undastand nw y Christ wud say on dt day wen u claim 2 knw Him?"Depart 4rm me..." ...blood of d innocents on ur hands..y allow d devil 2 do dz 2 u
den 2 al tru xtians wu knows n hears d Sheperd voice,av u 4gtn wah proverbs sed abt teachin fools..pls u tru xtians shud STOP ARGUIN wv dm n u wud c dt d thread wud die down
actually,deir fada d devil used words 4rm d Bible 2 tempt Jesus,wen he failed d Bible recorded wat he(devil) did n wch z wat dz author wud do;luke 4:13
Revelations sed sumtn abt addin n removin 4rm d word.Rev 22:19..i pity u guys end.
pls u guys shud read Mat 7:15,Rev 22:11-16

Please can you re-write that in coherent English? the meaning is difficult to decipher

thanks a lot

[quote author=St.Ola]Yes that's true. I reckon Christemmbassey was referring to the Jewish pentecost feast celebrating the giving of the law (ten commandments) on mount sinai. I was referring to the descent of the holy spirit on the disciples that happened on a pentecost day, and is celebrated in Christianity for that particular significance.[/quote]ok my bro.i see your point now though i'm sure christemmbassey was talking about the Jewish festival of weeks which is also detailed in Deut 16:9-11

thanks a lot my brother and God bless you

[quote author=St.Ola]Oops @ penticost. I believe you typed that in error. That's a Christian event.[/quote]Actually St.Ola,Pentecost is a Jewish festival(Lev 23:15-20).It's also known as the feast of weeks and celebrated 50 days after the feast of first fruits.The disciples only met on the particular day when the jews were celebrating Pentecost or feast of weeks hence the appellation

thanks