₦airaland Forum

Goshen360: Don't mind this brother Ola sef. I also watched the video. He's beginning to see tithe in EVERYTHING so tay he dey see tithe for AMERICA as a NATION. Na whaooooooooooo

i empathize with him and others actually because i was there before.i remember my response to those who said the law including tithing was abolished was ''whether you like it or not,i'll still pay'' because all i knew was Mal 3:10.Imagine my shock the first day i stumbled(i mean it in the literal sense) on Deut 14:22-29.

Just last nite while we were actively engaged on this thread, i was also having a bible discussion with a number of my colleagues and the issue of tithe came up.One of them came up with the usual ''i will still pay whether you like it or not'' and i asked him to read out Deut 14:22-29.when he got to verse 27 i think,he closed his bible and dropped his head for sometime.i just patted his back and told him i understand what he was thinking.he left with a resolve to start studying his bible more and that made me happy.

Let us encourage folks to study their bibles more and rightly divide the word of truth.God will surely help his children.

OLAADEGBU: Tithes and Offerings are both types of giving, you should explain to us why you swallow one and balk at the other. Go watch Dr. Ben Carson who gave Obama a resounding lecture using the tithe principle in solving America's fiscal problems.

https://www.nairaland.com/1196166/dr-ben-carson-lecturing-obama

You see how you mis-interprete almost everything? I just saw the transcript of Ben Carson's speech in your other thread and i am amazed you didn't see that he was trying to advice Americans to adopt a uniform tax rate for everybody.

"What about our taxation system — so complex there is no one that can possibly comply with every jot and tittle," he noted, going on to call for a simpler (i.e. flat tax) system. "When I pick up my Bible, you know what I see — I see the fairest individual in the universe — God — and he’s given us a system. It’s called tithe."

He was simply advocating a fair tax system that applied equally to everybody hence the reference to the bolded portion in the quote.

May God give us understanding

OLAADEGBU: Read the article called "Weighty Matters" that I posted earlier for your answer.

you castigated JIL for posting an article and now you ask me to read your article? why not just answer the enquiry if you can

frosbel: Deeperlife camoflague their own with 'holiness'.

It's strange you know.I still attend Deeperlife once in a while but i don't hear this aggressive funds mobilisation in the name of TITHES.i wonder where the OP is coming from

potentpraise: One i think you might be mis-quoating yourself. I don't have that luxury time answering your question, one in part, you might find it hard understanding it, since your mind might not be receptive under a high volatile assumption of the scripture. Also i think you are misplacing fact with content of your scriptural text given.

Here in Mark 6: 7-8, Jesus was sending out his disciples and instructing them not to take money with them and food, can you tell me where you want them to get food if not from the people they were to preached the word of God to?


7 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;

8 And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse:


In another passage Luke 10:3-6 He said the same thing


3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.

4 Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.

5 And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house.

6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again.

Also look at Jesus instruction again to his disciples

Matthew 6:25-28

25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:


You must have thought that the disciples would have died of hunger.. But Jesus knows that if they were accepted and the peace of God rest in the house, the people will surely give them food, money, cloths and anything needed for their needs and not for their wants...

Finally to buttress my point that the maintanance of pastors, i meant those that are faithful in his service are to be sustained by the church, the people, i mean church members through tithes and offering...

Look at Jesus here eating with with someone he was about to preach the gospel of christ to.. Mark 2:13-17

13 And he went forth again by the sea side; and all the multitude resorted unto him, and he taught them.

14 And as he passed by, he saw Levi the son of Alphaeus sitting at the receipt of custom, and said unto him, Follow me. And he arose and followed him.

15 And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him.

16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?

17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.


Tithess and offering was not abolished, rather the new commandment that was abolished was updated.. The commandments are thou shall not

the commandment on kill for kill and eye for an eye in old---is now you shall forgive 70 X 70.. and if someone slap your right cheek turn the left cheek is the new commandment
thou shall not convert your neighbor wife, in old ---- fornication and adultery is bad in new testament
thou shall not serve any other God beside me,in old ---- in new it is thou shall love the lord they God with all thy heart
thou shall not maltreat your servant... --- thou shall love thy neighbor
Though shall offer your sacrifice of burnt, peace, sin offerings in old--- --Pray without season and pray for forgiveness, sing psalm and songs to God-- Psalm 22:3 God inhabit the praise of his people--And we can see paul and Silas pray and sing songs
Priest of Aaron the old---- Jesus the new priest
Thithes and offering in the old---- Give alms and as it was written in many places you quoated including Matthew 6:1-2 when jesus was commanding his disciples how to give alms in secret not openly

Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

The commandment is updated and therefore also mean its abolished...


If this does not convince you, there is nothing that will and your other believers of tithes abolition

Exactly the point @potentpraise.check through all the verses you quoted,YOU'LL NEVER FIND TITHES.That's what we've been saying since.No one ever said to starve pastors or not to give to them but what the gospel of grace of our lord Jesus Christ is against is dictating 10% to the children of God.Apostle Paul sustained himself by his tent making(Acts 18:3 and Acts 20:33-35) and when he was arrested and awaiting trial,he received gifts(NOT TITHES) from some churches notably the Philipian church.Apostle Peter and Apostle James were nourished by the churches but it wasn't by tithes(i'm sure you know this) since they didn't belong to the tribe of levi and they were still operating in Jerusalem as jews(Acts 15:1-7, Acts 21:20).

Apostle Paul though he didn't insist on pay however made a case for payment of church leaders even elders(1Tim 5:17-18) but please TITHE was not mentioned as source of this payment.If your church members agree to give you their entire salary,by all means let them do it from a willing heart.however you'll need to examine your conscience as a pastor if you consider the gospel as a business that should enable you live like the CEO of a secular enterprise.You came into this world with nothing and you're going with nothing.If you want a bling bling life,get a job in a multinational or join politics and stop burdening christians redeemed by the blood of the lamb.

Stop threatening God's children with devourers and hell fire by quoting Mal 3:8-10.We are gentile christians saved by Grace and not children of isreal under Mosaic law(obligated to feed levites).

I enjoy the civility of this discussion,pls let's keep it that way.

God bless you plenty

potentpraise: I dont know where you got that from.. but re-read your bible again

i've read it and i asked you to expatiate on Deut 14:22-29, you refused.there is also the functions of the levites and priests that made it imperative for them to receive tithes and offerings in Num 18 and i also begged you to check it up but you did not.

Until you study them and ruminate over them,you might not understand ABOLITION OF THE PRIESTHOOD for which tithes was established.

for the records, according to Rom 15:25-27, 1Cor16:1-3, 2Cor 8:1-15, 2Cor 9:1-12 i affirm that giving as enunciated by Paul was solely for the purpose of helping poor and Needy christians primarily @ Jerusalem.It was NEVER done as a religious rite.call it offering,contribution,charity or whatever.It was simply a ONE OFF welfare contribution for THE POOR,not for A PASTOR OR A PRIEST.

This is a testimony that poverty is not an excuse for dishonesty
a truly honest human being
Pray he gets help to leave the streets soon

OLAADEGBU: See how these anti tithes gang have rushed back to this thread with their tails under the legs after potentpraise has scripturally dealt with them! Our Lord Jesus Christ equally dealt with the scribes and Pharisees for their hypocrisy. They can easily swallow camels but strain at a gnat.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and [b]not to leave the other undone[/b]. Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
-- Matthew 23:23-24

They say that you should give offerings which is much more than tithes but they cry wolf when tithes is mentioned. Jesus approved of tithes in the verse above and His knowledge of the counsel and mind of God in all matters cannot be questioned except you are a present day scribe and Pharisee who would balk at tithes but swallow offerings and call it gatherings or donations as long as it is not called tithes.

@the bolded, can you explain what ''not to leave the other undone'' in verse 23 means and please relate it to matthew 23:1-3?

i'm a christian but i agree with everything you wrote.

I saw the following write up on the internet sometime ago

''The church started as a movement in Jerusalem, it got to Greece and became a philosophy, went to Rome and became an institution, spread to all Europe and became a culture,It finally got to America and became a BUSINESS....A VERY BIG BUSINESS''.

Its the business model that is spreading like wildfire all over Nigeria and the deep poverty in the land makes Nigerians susceptible to the wolves.A revival of truth is brewing in christianity and if it takes an atheist to start it,all well and good.

@OP, i read a lot of your posts and i commend your open mindedness and civility.

You might have stopped believing in him but permit me to still say God bless you

christemmbassey: God bless you my brother, pls there is war against stomach-inspired gospel, pls join us online/offline, but we dont abuse, curse or insult but we seek and speak the truth to set the captives free.

My dear brother,i was overjoyed to learn you're a pastor who does not burden his flock with the lies and guilt of tithe.I'm with you all in contending for the faith for which Paul and others paid the supreme price.Ever since i stumbled on Deut 14:22-29 after almost 25 yrs of paying tithe without knowing what tithe meant,i have decided to help liberate other brethren from the guilt trap.

God bless you plenty

potentpraise: I have the text for tithes and i could buttress on that... but the initial argument is the explanation of Hebrew 7 and the abolition of tithes in the New Testament which Goshen360 believes is in Hebrew 7..

So the primary intent of this argument was not to established tithes but to clarify that it was never abolished

If you could explain Deut 14:22-29 and Num 18 then you'll surely understand why Heb 7 is an explanation for why it's no longer in force today viz ABOLITION OF LEVITICAL PRIESTHOOD which needed tithes for it's survival.

Potentpraise is comparing tithes and the giving Paul encouraged in his letters to the Corinthian church.
1Cor 16:1 says 'Now concerning the collection for the saints,as i have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye'.This is actually in response to the happenings in Acts 11:27-30 when a prophecy of famine was made and the gentile christians decided to send help to the jewish christians at Jerusalem.You should also read Rom 15:25-27 which also affirms contribution for poor saints at jerusalem.2Cor9:1 says 'For as touching the ministering to the saints,.......' you see,you can't make this look like the burnt offerings of the Mosaic era.

The whole idea of Christian giving is directed to help poor needy christians.we christians are under grace no more law.God has given us liberty including in our acts of charity which is what our so called offerings really is.we should not only give 10%. if the need arises,we can even give our entire incomes not because we fear a curse but because love for our brethren and our God has been shed abroad in our hearts.

your idea of tithes and offerings stems from Mal 3:8-10 but the giving advocated by Paul is simply contributions to alleviate the sufferings of poor christians.

If you really want to preach on tithe,please explain Deut 14:22-29 which is a more detailed tithe reference.

Whenever tithe advocates quote matthew 23:23 to support tithe,i ask them to start reading from mathew 23:1-3 which goes thus '1.Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2.Saying, the scribes and the pharisees sit in moses seat: 3.All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do;but do not ye after their works:for they say, and do not'.

If verse 23 says we as christians should pay tithe,then verse 3 says we should also obey all the laws of moses and there are 613 of them.

I still find it strange and fraudlent

---

that no single tithe advocate ever uses Deut 14:22-29 as a support since it is a more detailed treatise on tithe regulations as given to moses.could it be that tithe practice today is a horrible misrepresentation and distortion of what the law even said(assuming christians still have to obey laws of moses for salvation)? at times i wonder if our pastors are ignorant or plain deceitful

---

for the records,i did not read anywhere on this thread where anybody said NOT TO GIVE TO GOD'S WORK.the argument is are we under legalism on this issue simply because mammon is involved?there are also curses for not obeying the law of the sabbath which is actually the first ordinance to be hallowed by God(Gen 2:3).Why are you pastors here not harping on that?it also predates the law you know.Goshen pointed out a big church in the USA that does not collect tithes and they are still doing well so dont be scared you'll go hungry if tithe stops.

I'm even shocked that a Deeperlife pastor is the main protagonist here.I was at Deeperlife retreat in Dec 2012 and my phone here contains all the messages preached by Kumuyi during the programme.I can't remember him preaching about tithe like this.

Read Acts 15:10 and learn not to put a yoke on God's heritage

@Jil, i was really moved by all your write ups.Dont let anyone push you to getting personal.

God bless us all

my comment on the speech will be 'physician, heal thyself'
May God deliver us from hypocrisy in high places

@wordthots, i don't know if you're a brother or a sister but whenever i read you, i always wonder how you succeed in dropping it like i would.it's almost like we have a conference and agree on what you write.

my prayer for the church remains that God would bring to our remembrance the reason for Christ's death, burial and resurrection.

kudos and more grace to your life.

When i first saw this topic,i never believed it could go beyond a page because to me, it was a no brainer.

No matter how good or awesome Strong's dictionary or concordance is,it can never replace the bible.It can never replace the still small voice of the holy spirit working inside a believer.i saw we got into trying to define fornication and adultery.i'm surprised we didn't include lasciviousness in the search,maybe we could have become more enlightened.

okeyxyz affirmed in one post that Paul and the other apostles who were single were having regular sex with their lovers who of course are 'christian' sisters(abi which name will you give them since you said they were not harlots?)where for Christ sake was this implied in the bible? .Goshen implied this is wrong but if Apostle Paul had proposed marriage to sister Judith and she accepted,he would have just needed to book a room close to wherever he was having crusade or bible study and have his fill of love making before he goes to rain down apostolic grace on God's children since he has fulfilled the condition of 'intending to marry her'

Gal 5:22-23 talks about the fruits of the spirit.the last one mentioned was TEMPERANCE which is simply self control.why do we castigate men of God who buy jets? last time i checked i didn't see a verse that reads '....thou shall not buy jets...' in my bible.It's simply because we believe they are not bridling their appetite for CONSPICUOUS CONSUMPTION in line with the spirit of contentment which runs through the bible.In other words, they lack temperance or self control.

Paul wrote in 1Cor8:9 that 'But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to them that are weak'.The grace of God gives us liberty but not Licence.Gal 5:13 says ''For brethren, ye have been called unto liberty;only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh,but by love serve one another''.

Let us even assume it's not a sin,is it not better you just go ahead and marry so as not to be a stumbling block to your weak brother? would you still let your faith be evil spoken of? i'm sure you dont smoke and you wont tell me it's because you saw it prohibited in the bible.if i may ask then, why dont you smoke?

Please let us learn to possess our vessels in honour,If you can't contain which is actually difficult if you dont have that grace on you,please and please go and marry

Sex or love making isn't a handshake between friends, dont trivialize it

@Jesoul, fine write up by Nwankwo u posted there

may God help us

This your revelation ehn......hmmmmmm

Hope the heat didn't burn your face as you were exiting the tunnel?

May You receive deliverance from these delusions in Jesus name.Amen

ProPastorChris: Last sunday for me was a glorious one as i joyfully gave my firstfruit for this year 2013.

it was such an awesome service where i experienced the unlimited outpouring of the Spirit on me like never before.

hope you have done yours cos you may be short-changing yourself if you have not.

this is my testimony and my year is set with the best lined up for me

Good job my Brother.while you're at it also remember the feasts of 1.sabbath 2.passover 3.weeks 4.trumpets 5.day of atonement and 6.feast of Booths.these are all listed in leviticus chapter 23 together with feast of first fruits.dont just single out first fruits or you'll be in danger of Deut 27:26.

God bless you as you obey fully

Goshen360: ^
I understand you my brother. I'm convinced from scriptures (Hebrews 7) that tithe is abolished and ended for Christians. Off course, I'm not gonna throw the water away with the baby but the issue of tithing for Christians is clearly cancelled in scripture if we must be sincere. Do you mind if I show you from scripture (Hebrews 7) where tithing was abolished?

Besides, John MacArthur that you posted his video also does NOT teach tithe/tithing for Christians and yet one of the largest churches in United States.

My brother, you mean there is actually a big church that survives without tithes and offerings? i never heard of this pastor until u mentioned him.ministers like this are scarce if not non existent in nigeria.May God almighty bless him and grant him more grace to continue.

You too bro Goshen,i wish you God speed in your endeavours

hmmmm......my christian brothers and the desire to mirror the world in everything.

very serious matter o

Owoblowperfect: As for you logical, there is nothing logical about what you are saying. Obviously what you think is so false but how else can i stop one from making such a complete fool of himself or herself. Well, if you really are IT related, you would know that each system has a unique IP address and i can bet ya that it is not the same with who ever. I do not know Dr. Fireman one on one, i have never met him and don't intend to. But one thing i know for sure is that i need verification on something i want to contribute on. I am not a gossip or lie about things i have not experienced.

@so you have not met him yet you tell us how wonderful his ministry is?

I avoid dwelling on personalities in this kind of discussions but i must tell you,your fireman is a cheap and empty fraud.a very trashy conman.how shallow can people be to be led to this hustler? his biography put up here on nairaland is one of the most silly write ups any idiot has ever thought up.40,000 books read,holyghost fire burning a side of his face etc.what arrant nonsense? how dumb can nigerians be on their spiritual quest?

the guy is so empty and vain you dont even need a bible verse to debunk him and his 'ministry'.everything about him advertises 419.

OKIJA_JUJU

CHINEKEEEEE!!!! Nchekube!! Nchekube!!! Na who use my annointing oil wey I bring from crusade last week take fry Plantain chips?!


Abeg Okija,i dey go house before you make me get querry

Okija_juju:

Obinna!!!! Where that Lizard gizzard wey I say make you bring from fridge.. Do quick, Senator Farouk Lawan subsidy juju dey fire.. [/b]

kmcutez: Papa I don fry am chop yesterday. I wan make senator farouk go jail.

pls the 2 of you shouldn't allow me make a scene in my office o.what are you guys made of?

logica: Don't worry; I know God's plans because he discusses with me. Next in line is Prof Symbol Watermonkey. He will even be greater than Fireman, verily I sayeth unto thee.

let it be on record that Dipland just registered today(4th Feb 2013) all for the purpose of commenting on this topic.This necessisated owobloperfect to logout so as to create space for another clone of fireman to continue the propaganda.

with the way the clown is proliferatin himself on one workstation,i might just believe he's actually sent from 'god' because its 'miraculous'

hmmm the hustler no dey tire

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Hmmm..........ok just to be clear that we are on the same page, I'll give a parable to illustrate what I know grace to be.

The Redemption of The Niger-Delta Militants

Once upon a time in Nigeria, a group of people rebelled against the Federal Government they were called the Niger-Delta militants. By taking to arms, they became enemies of the state.(Colosians 1:21)

During the time when they were enemies of the state, certain laws such as curfews and restriction of movement were made to keep them in check with the penalty of arrest or even death in some cases. (Galatians 3:23)

After a while, the Government granted amnesty to the militants and reconciled them to the Federal republic of Nigeria.(Romans 5:10)

The militants accepted this amnesty by renouncing their crimes, surrendering their arms and turning away from their rebellion.(Acts 3:19)

The restrictions that were placed upon them were promptly lifted. They were therefore freed from the bondage that comes with rebellion and walked into the freedom that comes with amnesty (Romans 6:14)

Having renounced their militancy, they became law abiding citizens of the Federal Republic of Nigeria (Romans 6:18)

Now that they had been forgiven by the Government, does it mean that militancy that used to be sin is no longer sin? Does amnesty mean that they are still free to take up arms if they choose to? Absolutely not. (Romans 6:15)



I hope the above serves for us as a good illustration of what it means to not be under Grace and not the Law.

I have prayerfully thought of how best to pass this message across and this is what God laid in my heart. There is a world of difference between freedom and anarchy.

If anyone doesn't quite understand what I laid out above or doesn't quite agree with it, please feel free to point out the parts where you find it troublesome.


I'll conclude with this;

For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 6:20-23


The Message bible renders verse 23 beautifully

Work hard for sin your whole life and your pension is death. But God's gift is real life, eternal life, delivered by Jesus, our Master.


For further research, please take out time to prayerfully study Romans 6.[/quote]1000,000 likes.kudos Mr Anony.I wish you more of God's wisdom my brother.

@okeyxyz, i was alarmed when i read through all your posts.....brother,you're proposing anarchy in the guise of grace.you said you're free to steal as long as you're not caught as stealing belongs to the law and no longer binding on you.Fornication too is not sin as long as you didn't carry another man's wife.What is your interpretation of love for your neighbour if you wont think twice about stealing from him?

I keep hoping i misunderstood you and would be glad to hear you say so.

Our problem in christianity isn't Boko Haram or secret cults but DANGEROUSLY FALSE DOCTRINES

may God help us

I'm always happy whenever i see threads like this.It indicates that more of God's children are getting liberated from man made religion and getting to know more about Jesus Christ our High Priest.I tell you that it's not easy to get your mind deprogrammed after years of intensive brainwashing.It took me a whole year of studying and praying to finally acknowledge the truth that keeping some specific laws of Moses that the 'church' picked out will not lead me to God but the saving grace of God does.Imagine how hard it is for someone like my mum to come round to this idea when she has been under this dogma for considerably longer and more intense as she's the daughter of a church founder too.

Let us keep telling the truth of the word so other brethren can hear and be free indeed.

preshuzpearl: Keep your opinion to yourself And stop 8ing!!!

who me

You brought this to a public forum dear:you invited my opinion.i have as much right as you to give it.

Also i'm not hating,just giving my opinion with all the candour you can imagine

Cheers

oiseworld: @candour,
I have done what I can do, you guys jst continue interpreting tins the way it deems fit.

I can't help u any further.

no problem brother.i can empathize with you @ the bolded.
Wish you all the best

@oiseworld,

from reading your posts here, i can safely conclude the following.they are actually contained in your posts but i wouldn't want to bore people by reproducing them

1.You do not believe in giving anything without getting something in return hence even a beggar had better have a repayment plan before he can benefit from you.in other words Altruism is not in your dictionary.
2.Giving to a MOG is the only giving that God recognises.
3.you need the money that is why you're not a free giver.
4.you can't prosper without 'giving' to God

I have some questions

1.how do you explain the wealth enjoyed by Bill Gates(an atheist) and Dangote(a muslim) or can we conclude that Dangote is prospering because he sows into the lives of his own MOG's(they will be imams and mallams in this case i think)? or maybe Bill gates profits by sowing into the lives of african children plenty of whom are in your church through his Bill and Melinda gates foundation?

most importantly,how does one give to God in the light of matt 25:31-46?

eyenCalabar: That's not exactly what I meant there sir, I only tried to set example why your pastor must be prosperous. You can never get to a height that your pastor have not reached. Besides, wealth/riches is part and parcel of the whole thing sir. If the devil can give wealth, how much more God?

@the bolded, how did we get to this level in christianity? where did this teaching come from?

SMH

indeed narrow is the way.

wow!!!

Been following this thread and must confess it's a tragedy when Atheists,agnostics etc know more about the heartbeat of our Christ than we children of the kingdom.How can some christians imply that Christ died so we can fill our houses with dollars when its obvious that no so called 'christian' will ever match the silicon valley whizkids in wealth.If Christ died to make us rich in physical terms,don't you think one of us should be the richest in the world right now? if that is not the case, can't it be argued that Christ died in vain? i mean if 2000 years after the fact,no Christian has worn the garb of richest man in the world.

seriously brethren,do you really need @lagerwhenindoubt to preach at you before you realise you're way out in left field? your casino gospel only breeds empty,greedy and self centered 'christians' who know nothing in the bible except verses that have the word riches or it's synonyms in them.

no matter how much they 'sow' or receive seeds 'sown', all our biggest MOG's combined will never match Warren Buffet(an agnostic) in wealth.the man is 85 years old and he even enjoys better physical health than our jet flying pastors.

Shame on you if you think Christ shed his blood so you can fill your being with materials susceptible to the power of mere rodents and roaches.

@lagerwhenindoubt, i salute your openness.

PLS LET THE TEACHINGS CONTINUE......I'M ENJOYING IT BIG TIME