₦airaland Forum

spacetacular:
Since you already had an answer why then did you ask the question? I did say you just want to ask questions with no intention of learning. Did you not just prove me right?

You said Jackbizzle didn't drop his own argument.
I'm making mine and you're not cool with it?

I'm not dogmatic. If you can drop a convincing argument, I'll reevaluate my faith. I'm like that.
So, what's your answer/explanation?

spacetacular:
How am I sure you are not passing the buck now? You could have been the highest ranking that day we wouldn't know simply because we were not there. Same way you had no access to the spiritual to draw natural conclusions based on assumptions.

This is a simple question.
Do prayers work in the face of an incompetent doctor?
My answer is NO.
What is your answer?

spacetacular:
Do you admit to being incompetent that day?

Child was admitted into my unit. The worst cases were handled by the most senior doctors in the unit, I was part of the doctors in the unit, but I wasn't the most senior doctor, so, my competency is irrelevant in this scenario.

So, I ask again, do prayers work in the face of an incompetent doctor?

spacetacular:
Same way you were swinging the way of God based on assumptions I simply swung the way of your practice based on assumptions as well.

Does it look familiar?

Prayers work in the face of an incompetent doctor, True or False?

spacetacular:
Your statements which come after your questions show you do not wish to learn but just want to be busy asking redundant questions .

You heard her ask for forgiveness and you monitored her prayer type and duration. All this while giving intensive care to a dying child?

Spare me from the stories please.

I guess in this hospital of yours Prayers always went Unanswered under your watch right?

You sound like you don't even trust the prayers to work in the face of an "incompetent" doctor.
So, it's no longer the failure of prayers, it's now the "incompetence" of the doctor?
Nice turn you did there, Johan Cruyff.

spacetacular:
All I see with you is a gross lack of spiritual understanding and a deep desire not to.

Do you understand and know ALL medical procedures? With deliberate exposure to that which you do not know or understand only then would you understand and know it.

Anybody can pray and thus the ability to pray does not connote relationship with God and I guess you also heard her ask for forgiveness of sins while her kid was under your intensive care right?

Perhaps you were too distracted to offer adequate medical assistance and the kid died due to your medical negligence and you attribute it to failed prayer whose rudiments you lack access to.

Deep desire not to learn and I'm asking you all these questions?

I heard her ask for forgiveness. I can never forget that woman in my life. She is a member of KingEbukasBlog congregation. She prayed and prayed till she lacked the strength to pray. She is a small part of the reason why I am an atheist today.

Even if the kid died out of my medical "negligence", prayer is supposed to do the unimaginable. It's supposed to move mountains and cast them into the sea, so, a small thing like my medical "negligence" won't stand in the way of the ultimate powers of prayers now, would it?

spacetacular:
who kept count of the number of hours this alleged mother prayed for? You?

If you had read and understood my other comment this one would have been totally unnecessary.

Does one put new wine in an old bottle? If you do the old bottle would burst.

You would have been able to make a better informed conclusion about why her prayers went unanswered if you had access to her life and her inner spiritual workings or actions / reactions.

You only saw her outward prayer activities but like I said, prayer has a foundation as enumerated in my other comment.

All I see are cop outs, I'm sorry.
The condition given by Jesus in the scriptures was faith, for the woman to even think of praying, it means that she had faith that her prayers would make a difference.

If you say she might have been a sinner. In the template of prayers (The Lord's prayer) forgiveness of sins are asked before tabling the matter in prayers, so, the part of sin isn't there.

And Jesus said simply to ask, which she did, she didn't ask amiss.

So, why wasn't she answered?

I counted the length of her prayers. Her kid was in my unit, so, I saw everything.

spacetacular:
I deliberately ignored mr hopefullandlords comment based on the one above. You see when you wish to learn and understand a thing do not spite it or throw in ridicule just to convince yourself that the mere thought of it is ridiculous.

His manner of approach has already been foreseen and documented in scripture thus,

"But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise".

So I know that the spiritual methodology of prayer was deliberately designed by God so no man can hold it's explanation or be able to rationalise it's workings.

Scripture is a blueprint and not the 3D reality. The reality is now where the Holy Spirit comes in to guide, remind, receive from God and reveal to us plus keep us in God's will.

You were wrong to assert that Prayers are personal. No it is not restricted. It is personal in Love and outwardly expressive in Love and selflessness towards others. Except you wish to tell me that when you were a Christian you carried out prayers of hate and vengeance and prayers of selfishness which would explain why you did not receive. You asked AMISS!

This is the foundation for prayer below found in Romans 12

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:

5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;

8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;

11 Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;

12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;

13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.

14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.

15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.

16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good."

The Holy Spirit is the one who actualises all this in us for without Him we can do nothing. Love is a burden to those who lack the LOVE SPREADER aka the Holy Spirit. But when you Have him, Love becomes your Prayer Trigger.

In of my better threads on Nairaland, I shared a story of a mother who prayed for 12 hours non stop for the health of her baby. The child died.
Is that asking amiss?

spacetacular:
It is out of place!

You cannot exclude prayers from HOW they are received.

That's where rationality comes in for science. Prayer is not restricted to what you ask for because there are SELFISH PRAYERS, GREEDY PRAYERS, DESTRUCTIVE PRAYERS, PRAYER TIMING IN REFERENCE TO GODS WILL, etc

Then there is THE WILL OF GOD .

Where does the will of God overlap with these prayer patterns? Which meets the criteria already provided by God Himself? That is one of the reasons we have the Holy Spirit so He can help us pray ACCORDING to God's will. Can science quantify the Holy Spirit?

You cannot study a car while ignoring the tiniest parts of the car which make all bigger parts work.

With all the Bible passages quoted by hopeful.landlord above, it's obvious that prayers are designed for our own personal use, to solve our personal problems.

If everything happens as the will of God, that kind of renders prayers redundant since no matter our prayers, it's God's will that would eventually happen.
Though I don't agree with your position because the Bible was explicit about what prayers are for.

spacetacular:
How can science even think prayer can be studied when they have no idea HOW it works?

Is there a prayer doorway?
Is there an invisible link between people who pray and God?
Are ALL prayer outcomes visible for all to see or personally felt and interpreted.
Is there a definite pattern to prayer AT ALL TIMES.

My realities are mixed in with all that because my prayers are personal experiences which proved itself to me by an inner consciousness of faith.

Science is Rational. Prayer is not.

So rationality tends to "predict" timing, and expects specific answers which are within its limit of rationality. However Prayer isn't rational. Neither can it be discerned that way.

Science is simply attempting to limit the scope of prayer which is beyond what they can handle.

All science is trying to do with prayers is to determine its efficacy. The mechanism of action is of no concern.

Now, prayers in the Bible is described as goal oriented. Ask and it shall be given to you, Seek and you shall find, Knock and the door would be opened and whatnot.

So trying to study prayers within those goal oriented parameters isn't out of place, don't you think so?

Apostolate:
"Miracle is not contrary to nature but contrary to what we know about nature" st. Augustine.
Also, somewhere in the scripture; Jesus said "i thank u fada 4 u have hidden this from the wise & had revealed it to the little ones"
I am a science student hoping to be a professor in biology but i can attest that science has no comparison with religion.
¤science as we all know deal with 'proven fact' fact dat was developed through observation, hypothesis.....then it becomes fact strictly under the knowledge of men.but this fact has it boundaries because scientists had declared some things or events 'impossible'
¤but religion deals with faith dat was developed through believe, trust & hope; with the power of faith nothing is impossible, everything is possible as far as you believe!
to the scientist, it's against nature & totally imposible bt to d christains who have concrete faith, it is naturally possible

According to theology, there are different theological classifications of miracles, one of the most common being the three categories: "surpassing nature" (Latin supra naturam), "against nature" (Latin contra naturam) and "alongside nature" (Latin praeter naturam).

Now, only "alongside nature" has some evidence going for it, doesn't that tell you something?

hopefulLandlord:
our miracle working pastors that claim lots of miracles like healing cancer, healing permanent erection , making blind see, lame walk etc even freaking raising the dead cannot heal amputees, they won't even bother trying if an amputee comes to their crusades because they know it would ruin the business

Or a personal favorite of mine.
Since they can raise the dead, they should raise someone who died after having their head cut off.
I'll personally go back to that religion.

spacetacular:
Yes it did. I cannot be swayed by the philosophical musings of any man especially when I know it's all within the limits of HIS own mind and DESIRES. I simply develop my own musing from his own in relation to my belief and move on.

How do you reconcile things like the effectiveness of prayers (the Scientific studies) to your own personal philosophies?
It can be difficult to reconcile your ideals with reality, you know.

spacetacular:
I just answered that.

So, what you're saying is (I'm paraphrasing) reading Bertrand Russell made you a stronger Christian, while it made me an atheist?

spacetacular:
We have a lot of common grounds sir affinity would show that we do a lot more than we both think. I love Bertrands works and his sound reasoning most times.

I have a few of his books such as Why I Am Not a Christian and Religion & Science plus a few others. I read the history of western philosophy briefly (not completely) and that was about 4years ago and come to think of it I cannot fathom why I didn't finish it.

You read Bertrand Russell and you're still a Christian?
How did that happen?

Joshthefirst:
As I said there are many layers to my opinion, and interpretation of that data, prayer, is a completely subjective experience for different people, science is basically about systematic experimental and objective fact.

So, which one is more reliable?
Objectivity or subjectivity when dealing with facts?

Joshthefirst:
Does this mean you aren't seeking right now?
The bolded gives an impression you were looking for a scientific answer?

If I come across outrageously overwhelming evidence, it would be hypocritical of me not to consider it.
And by that it means that the evidence must come from a reproducible method, not anecdotes.

Joshthefirst:
Yeah, prayer is an entirely personal and subjective experience.


And no, I don't think religion helps with depression, but there are many layers to this.

In spite of the scientific data to back up the fact that religion helps with depression, you choose not to accept it?
Why do you reject the scientific method when it comes to proving the efficacy of prayers? It works for everything else, why not prayers?

Joshthefirst:
accepted by Christians doesn't mean accepted by me.

The best way to test the efficacy of prayer is to pray yourself. Pray to the God you may have doubts about. Be open to the fact that you don't know everything, make room in your heart and don't assume you know all the answers. Pray to God to reveal himself and his truth to you, seek genuinely with a pure heart.

My answer is based on the assumption that you're a seeker at heart, and not a raver.

I genuinely did that. I prayed, searched for him, asked him to reveal himself, then, I did an analysis of everything I prayed for and how many of them that were answered. It wasn't better than coincidence, then I started searching, then I came across the experiment which ticked all the boxes in the scientific method and I was sold.

The method you proposed for checking the efficacy of prayers will render it subjective/anecdotal, don't you think so?

BTW, you don't accept that religion helps with depression?

Joshthefirst:
1. Prayer, is entirely subjective. It means different things to different people cannot even know how much

2. We cannot completely apply limited human investigations to determine the out working of God's power.

3.They cannot even quantify the actual amount of people praying, random numbers of friends and family, etc. if we want to give them any leverage.

Come on, now.
You're a medical student. You know how invaluable clinical studies are in trying to determine the effectiveness of a line of therapy.
Double blind placebo controlled group trials are the best there is.
You can't just wave it off like that, you can as well wave off every single evidence based medicine plan you plan on using for your patients.

When a double blind study proved that religion was very helpful in dealing with depression, it was accepted by christians. But when it failed with prayers, it is now "We cannot completely apply limited human investigations to determine the out working of God's power."?

Besides, the prayers were proper prayers done in a church and the Bible described prayers as goal oriented, it never said anything about it being subjective.

So, in your opinion, what's the best way to measure the efficacy of prayers?

Another promising thread derailed.
What is wrong with you people sef?

Joshthefirst, you're aware of the Harvard/Templeton foundation prayer experiment, right?
What do you have to say about it?

JackBizzle:
Cc Ha.hn, f.elixomor, K.ingebukasblog, c.atfishbilly, a.depeter26, tl.uzzie, t.earless et al

Joshthefirst.

KingEbukasBlog:
One last thing : As the creator of the universe , God can defy natural laws , laws of physics to orchestrate whatever he chooses to . That's what makes him God - the wonder , the mesmerising effect of his prescence, the mystery behind the existence the cosmos . You can't just quickly decipher an inscrutable being or its actions, you just can't.

This. Pseudo philosophical bullshiiit.

CatfishBilly:
Ask for an explanation of where that bloke came from, and odds are you'll get a vague, pseudo-philosophical reply about having always existed, or being outside nature. Which, of course, explains nothing


Source: An anonymous blogger

Why is God considered an explanation for anything?
It's not. It's a failure to explain, a shrug of the shoulders, an 'I dunno' dressed up in spirituality and ritual.
If someone credits something to God, generally what it means is that they haven't a clue, so they're attributing it to an unreachable, unknowable sky-fairy.
Ask for an explanation of where that bloke came from, and odds are you'll get a vague, pseudo-philosophical reply about having always existed, or being outside nature. Which, of course, explains nothing


Source: An anonymous blogger

JackBizzle:
Hello. Bros abeg I want to create a thread for Christian doctors- where I can challenge then on science and religion.


Will you partake?

Baba, abeg, mention me when you open the thread.

121. ARGUMENT FROM PERSECUTION (II)
(1) Jesus said that people would make fun of Christians.
(2) I am an idiot.
(3) People often point that out.
(4) Therefore, God exists.
122. ARGUMENT FROM PERSECUTION (III)
(1) You atheists are mean!
(2) Therefore, God exists.
123. ARGUMENT FROM JESUS SAID STUFF
(1) Jesus said some really cool stuff.
(2) No one else had said that stuff.
(2) Therefore, God exists.
124. ARGUMENT FROM DIFFERENCES
(1) The Christian God is different than the gods of other religions.
(2) Therefore, the Christian God exists.
125. ARGUMENT FROM CHRISTIAN MORALITY (altho it could probably be adapted to just about any religion)
(1) Somewhere, someone who called himself or herself a Christian did something nice.
(2) This person was probably not lying.
(3) Therefore, this person was a Christian.
(4) Therefore, Christians do nice things.
(5) Therefore, Christians are moral.
(6) Christians believe in the Bible.
(7) Therefore, the Bible is moral.
( The Bible is God's word. It says so.
(9) Therefore, God is moral.
(10) (We are just ignoring all the not-nice things that Christians may or may not have done in the past, it's hard to trust history anyway, there are enemies of God working everywhere).
(11) A moral God would be really nice.
(12) Therefore, God exists.
126. ARGUMENT FROM CRAZINESS, a.k.a. PERCHANCE'S SISTER'S ARGUMENT (I)
(1) I would go crazy if I didn't believe in God.
(2) I am not crazy, and don't want to go crazy.
(3) Therefore, God exists.
127. MRS. POPE'S ARGUMENT FROM CHOCOLATE
(1) Chocolate is God's gift to humanity.
(2) Therefore, God exists.
(3) Now class, would anyone like to attempt an Argument From Beer?
128. ARGUMENT FROM WWJD
(1) I have the “What Would Jesus Do?” T-shirt, bracelet, baseball hat, and shoelaces.
(2) I wear them in public.
(3) Therefore, God exists.
129. ARGUMENT FROM INTEREST
(1) If God really doesn’t exist than atheists wouldn’t spend so much time talking about him.
(2) [Atheist refutes (1).]
(3) Therefore, God exists.
130. REID’S ARGUMENT
(1) You assume that your senses are reliable even though you can’t prove it.
(2) That means I get to assume anything I want.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

adepeter26:
Billy, what are you doing on this thread

LoL

Bro, I come here for my daily dose of comic relief.
They don't disappoint, at all.
Howdy, sir.

TLuzzie:
Pauper speaking. I'm sure people younger than you pay your salary. Your AGE couldn't take you higher than that? Every nonsense you type reveals the poor quality of your breeding, peerage and heritage. Scum like you were born to serve the elite. Endure your grim fate, under-achieving old fool.

Oga. It have do naa.
Na person papa be that ooo.

Ucheizzy:
There is Local government attestation form and parents/guardian consent form, and you'd need attestion of good character from the person that will sign the LG ATTESTATION form or from a priest or imam. Whixh one haven't you gotten?

Attestation of good character.

emmyrexhot2:
haaa..!

Answer naa.

Guys, I know about the Local government form and Parents forms.
What's attestation form? What does it look like? I'm yet to get that one done.