₦airaland Forum

butterflylion:
Stop forcing a goalpost shift on me. I say I no want na . Our discussion is not about what theists scientists believe you hear?





Goalpost shift attempt again

Where and when did I ever mention a 10000 year old universe as my belief? You came with scientific knowledge and so far all I have done has been to stay within the limits of science. You on the other hand has been the one trying to force this discussion to shift to theism or the bible which I have repeatedly pointed out to you.

Also the eternal or infinite earth hypothesis should not be on that list you put up there. The eternal earth hypothesis is what it is... A HYPOTHESIS which cannot be scientifically proven as true beyond science fiction.



This discussion has never been about proving the existence of God. Rather it has been about the eternal nature of God as against your claim of an eternal nature of the universe based on your indeterminate clause.

Stop goalpost shifting you will not hear

butterflylion:
Please take small small dey lie you hear? This was your comment below




An eternal universe is what the multiverse hypothesis is all about. How can you deny not saying the very thing you said? Na wa o







Goalpost shifted again.

You said knowing God restricts science yet you said theists who were scientists originated the big bang theory and you still cannot see how you punctured your entire argument with your own hands?



Look above



. So much confusion. How can someone who believes in God and creation originate the big bang theory if he felt it was against creation? You seem confused. Read what i wrote above again.

Indeterminate simply means not exactly known, established, or defined. However science says you are wrong because they say the universe has been scientifically determined to be about 13 billion years old. So how then does indeterminate and eternal come in when we have a determined finite time?

Again I ask you, how can I be dwelling on fantasies when all I have done has been to work with the things you have said. I already showed you where you mentioned eternal universe above. Was that my wishful thinking at work too?

butterflylion:
No! I am not ridiculing scientific theories. I only ridiculed your eternal universe HYPOTHESIS or your multiverse HYPOTHESIS. Notice that the multiverse is actually a HYPOTHESIS and not a THEORY?

I really do not understand where your confusion stems from? You said theists originated the big bang theory (which shows these theists were scientists) yet you claim knowing God does not enable science to go forward. I simply reminded you of your previous comment about theists and the big bang theory. Even you and anyone reading this would struggle to understand your confusion. Why say two different things and expect to make sense. If theists originated the big bang theory does this not show you that knowing God does not restrict science?

Still struggling with the word ETERNAL I see.


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You are still making conflicting statements.

Here was your comment below



For this comment I then asked you



You then answered that you would have agreed to my comment but it seems I am an exception to the rule and here you are talking about me having wishful thinking.

Was your eternal universe claim not wishful thinking? When that argument was defeated you said the universe has a beginning.

Now you claim I have wishful thinking even after I asked you if science is limited or not based on your comment above and you declined to answer. So answer me now. Based on your previous comment which I have brought forward here is science limited or not?

Plus if all I have been saying has simply been working with comments you made logically, how then were my thoughts wishful thinking?

butterflylion:
Here we go again with the goalpost shifting

When did this argument shift to the age of the universe as posited by science and those from the Bible? I thought you claimed the universe was indeterminate and when I showed you that it is according to science you now move to the Bible version? na wa o.

Besides nowhere did the Bible say anything about 10000 years (just had to clear that for you and not encouraging your goalpost shifting)

For the 4th time stop goalpost shifting.

Despite your claim of theists being behind the big bang theory you still went ahead to say the above? Were the big bang theist originators not scientists? Your comments are making less and less sense as you go along.

Even after you made that declaration above about the limitations of man you still claim I am the exception

You do not need extraterrestrials to explain or understand what science has proposed in accordance with their observations per our observable universe when those extraterrestrials would be limited to their own observable universe.

*speaking as if extraterrestrials do exist* they exist outside this earth or it's environs. So how then would we need extraterrestrials to interpret our observable universe when they clearly have theirs?

butterflylion:
Admit it you have nothing to say

I had to bring back that quote to keep you on track since you began to stray. Are you projecting thoughts on me by assuming I need a nap? I have been the one who has been more lucid than you have been so far. I suggest you take a 30 minute break and grab some lunch.

butterflylion:
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Indeterminate is not a word to use for the universe when science says it has a beginning and this beginning was 13.772 billion years ago. Is science wrong?

Calling anything God does not close any window to research. It rather opens it up wider after all ever since the name "God" began scientific discoveries have never ceased including from theists. Remember you said theists brought about the big bang theory? So how come the word "God" didn't stop their research?

I already explained to you that with God there is a difference. God exists without a beginning and end but other things exist within the confines of beginning and end.

How can I be an exception to this rule when you clearly said and I quote,


Am I still an exception to the rule?

butterflylion:
MEASURABLE TIME is a human construct and not what it was designed to measure. Time was already existing indefinitely before a measure was designed to measure within our limits for our benefit.

Here you are deliberately trying to shift the goalpost again when what I said was ,

.


Stop being dishonest oga and stop shifting goalposts at random. I have told you this 3 times now.

Repeating the same message with different words still does not change its message. We already went through this above and here you are repeating same thing. SMH.

Your asking for proof still goes to buttress my words on man being limited to our observable universe and it also further exposed the struggle you have to understand the concept of the word ETERNAL!

Let me phrase your comment properly, NOTHING CAN BEGIN TO EXIST OUT OF NOTHING. You left out the word BEGIN. To exist is a state of being and does not have time attached to it. But because God is eternal we say to BEGIN to exist to other things and not to God because ETERNAL means no beginning of existence and no end to existence.

Regarding your philosophical quote, you cannot say good health is a disease because the word GOOD is already evident while man sees disease as BAD.

shifting goalposts to theists being the proponent of the big bang just to sway the argument is a show of desperation! Stick to the argument. The Big Bang was used to further the cause of evolution and the multiverse/ eternal universe was now attempted to be used to replace an eternal God.

butterflylion:
You do not know yet in your opening argument with me you said and I quote "the indeterminate nature of the universe makes it eternal". why then are you now recanting?

Well there are people who do know and science supports them. Science agrees and has determined that something caused the universe to begin existing. People call this thing God. You are free to call it whatever gives you joy but whatever you call it or do not call it does not change the fact that it was there before our known universe began.

Whether you know or not does not change the fact that it began at some point and something caused it's existence.

All you just said in bold still further Buttresses my point about limitations and since science does not exist without people whom you just said are limited, do you now agree that science is limited based of your words in bold?

butterflylion:
It's called context and not selfishness. Use it sometimes Okay?

Your comment here has explained time and it's measurement to you but you didn't realise it.

I told you that the time we know is used as measure which enables a sneak peek into a time we cannot measure based on the available observable parameters we are exposed to. In my chat with Obinna about numbers I told him that we know eternity exists because even man creates eternal situations just like your infinite open loop gain. Man KNOWS eternity exists because even they create it in their own small given platforms and you just gave me yours in electronics engineering.

I never expected you to say anything else but this

!

Check my response to your electronics engineering.





Goalpost shifting again! We are talking about your eternal universe and evolution only came in because you began the eternal universe talk and since you did not know that the eternal universe hypothesis was an attempt to use it to explain evolution I simply told you.

When did I say it applies to theists? You are just making goalpost shifting comments everywhere. All I did was apply the same "who created God" logic on the eternal universe you mentioned by asking "who created the universe".


I explained all I did in a way I expected you would relate with as an atheist and that is LOGICALLY. or is logic dead?

butterflylion:
Again you talk confused! Go look at context and meaning in English then come back and recant this post because mine contains zero INSINCERITY as all I did was work with the information you provided based on your words on an eternal universe being so due to its indeterminate nature.

Also you shift goalposts at will.

Your words in bold simply show your confusion further. First you said the indeterminate nature of the universe makes it eternal and next you said the universe has a beginning (which the word beginning is a clear contrast of the word eternal) and here now you ask " if God was not created, why then cant we say so about the universe" which is you claiming the universe is eternal again because God is eternal. Goalpost shifting everywhere

Do you doubt cause and effect? Is the universe a conscious being? Can you say the universe decided to arrive on the scene?

If cause and effect is a scientific law based on our human observations, would you say the observable universe which you also agree to be within our limited by the use of the word INDETERMINATE, never subscribed to being an effect of a cause?

butterflylion:
What destroys your whole statement here is one word... ETERNAL!

the God we speak about is known to be an eternal being and since science confirms that the universe has a beginning then the universe cannot be used as a measure for eternity because it is not eternal. Simple

Since the universe has a beginning then something must have caused it to begin according to scientific law. Nothing can begin to exist without being caused to begin to exist however God does not fit into the definition of "to begin to exist" because GOD IS ETERNAL and eternal means without beginning and without end while to begin to exist talks about a point of reality.

That which existed before the universe is what we term as God and science knows that something did exist before the universe and this something caused the universe to be but refuse to give it a name or acknowledge that this thing is God but their position does not erase the fact that something existed before own known universe began.

butterflylion:
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You make me laugh. Definitions are always expanded upon based on the context it fits and I expanded on it but you think definitions are applicable in a strict pattern when meanings and context still exist in English This was why I said "in a broad sense".

You are confusing yourself! How can you first say due to the indeterminate nature of the universe then the universe is said to be eternal and now you are saying the universe has a beginning what part of eternal do you not understand?

Why would you not go into big bang? You think I am ignorant yet I just showed you how the multiverse is silly.

Thanks for calling your own comment trash! You really need to stop and think.

let me make it simple. Children exist so parents exist! Children who are conceived are conceived within the confines of their already existing carriers (man). So children coming into existence have aspects of the already existing carrier in them (CAUSE AND EFFECT) time did not just begin, it had to be caused by something which determined it's nature. This nature is what we in our own way have developed a means of measurement for. This measurement of time gave us an idea of what finite and infinity means and why they must exist as words in use.

Man is finite but understands that the time we see is within another much larger time we cannot fathom.

Then why did you mention an eternal universe?

Your statement here still echoes the fact I said earlier and that is that man is limited to what our observable universe has to offer.

But you watch sci-fi that talks about multiverse


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It's obvious with this comment of yours you know zero about evolution. If you did then you would have known that the multiverse hypothesis aka eternal universe hypothesis was simply an attempt to explain evolution and replace creation with it.

[/quote]When did I say it applies to theists? You are just making goalpost shifting comments everywhere. All I did was apply the same "who created God" logic on the eternal universe you mentioned by asking "who created the universe".

Please try not to shift goalposts again

butterflylion:
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You make me laugh. Definitions are always expanded upon based on the context it fits and I expanded on it but you think definitions are applicable in a strict pattern when meanings and context still exist in English This was why I said "in a broad sense".






You are confusing yourself! How can you first say due to the indeterminate nature of the universe then the universe is said to be eternal and now you are saying the universe has a beginning what part of eternal do you not understand?



.

Why would you not go into big bang? You think I am ignorant yet I just showed you how the multiverse is silly.


.


Thanks for calling your own comment trash! You really need to stop and think.

let me make it simple. Children exist so parents exist! Children who are conceived are conceived within the confines of their already existing carriers (man). So children coming into existence have aspects of the already existing carrier in them (CAUSE AND EFFECT) time did not just begin, it had to be caused by something which determined it's nature. This nature is what we in our own way have developed a means of measurement for. This measurement of time gave us an idea of what finite and infinity means and why they must exist as words in use.

Man is finite but understands that the time we see is within another much larger time we cannot fathom.



Then why did you mention an eternal universe?

Your statement here still echoes the fact I said earlier and that is that man is limited to what our observable universe has to offer.




But you watch sci-fi that talks about multiverse


.

It's obvious with this comment of yours you know zero about evolution. If you did then you would have known that the multiverse hypothesis aka eternal universe hypothesis was simply an attempt to explain evolution and replace creation with it.





When did I say it applies to theists? You are just making goalpost shifting comments everywhere. All I did was apply the same "who created God" logic on the eternal universe you mentioned by asking "who created the universe".

Please try not to shift goalposts again

Amberon11:
Lied because of who? Lol, you're just all butthurt that your demigod denounced being atheist. Heck, even Seun vented out his frustrations that day, I recall vividly.

Fact is Mark is NOT atheist and he made that clear so don't try to assume what's not.

butterflylion:
The word indeterminate being a word in existence was created for such a purpose as this. When something is indeterminate it means [s]in a broad sense that what would enable its determination is unavailable so it [/s] cannot be defined or established within the known parameters available.


indeterminate
adjective
not exactly known, established, or defined.

This can only be true if that God was never said to be eternal and also this would be true if the universe was also said to be eternal but science has proven that the universe BEGAN AT SOME POINT. the eternal universe claim is science fiction and no credible scientist looks at it twice because it can, never be scientifically proven. Why this is an impossible thing for science to prove is because for proof to be available then our known universe must be able to overlap another multiverse at some point and we should be able to identify where and when they overlapped and you and I know that is an impossibility. Plus the string theory which hypothesises some of this can also not be proven.

You do realise that there is always a reason behind the creation of words. Finite was created for sake of limit. Infinity was created for sake of limitlessness. Same way eternal is. Man is a finite being so because we are finite beings we are limited in our concept of eternity. If there was a man who has ever lived since sciences touted big bang then such a man would have been in a better position to give a deeper insight of what eternal looks like because he has tasted a much larger portion of mans finite time.

I am manufacturing nothing! time isn't simply time . Time was there before our time began! Simple. Our time did not just begin, it began within something else that was already there and existing! It just simply took a part of that which was already there before it came especially since it exists within that which already existed, it's only logical to have some of the attributes of that which it exists within.

It's logical thinking and not wishful. I only said it due to your eternal universe or multiverse assumption and since we exist within the limits of our observable universe and you spoke of an eternal universe or a multiverse how then am I being a wishful thinker for saying that other life forms may exist in other multiverses and also talking about their own observable universe. Or do you think it's our own universe they would observe while being confined to theirs?

Animals respond to what terms we determine as man. For man 10 years is 10 years. For animals, 10 years is 10 years and so on and the reason is because we are the intelligent ones and we determined what time should look like and we see animals from the view of what we have determined. But an intelligent life form much like man in another universe would not agree with us simply because their universe would offer them something different from what ours holds.

But you are already discussing the eternal universe which was meant to fully justify evolution or did you not know this?


Fair enough! Since you do not know does this not then confirm that our observations are limited to our observable universe?

Amberon11:
Meaning that Mark must've lied about his religious or non religious beliefs?

hopefulLandlord:
yes o! who knows if its his god that commanded him to do it? commanding creatures to anoint vagyna and boobs doesn't seem implausible since the same god ordered the killing of midianite and Canaanite infants

butterflylion:
If something is said to be eternal it means it holds no value for a beginning and no value for an end. So it is just a constant and has no end point and no starting point.

Once something is said to be eternal then the issue of being created or creating itself becomes baseless simply because being created or creating itself would point to it having at least a beginning even if no ending. That alone defeats the word ETERNAL!

What makes man speak about creation or a lack of creation in terms of Gods eternity or in this case your talk about the eternal universe is like you said "the universe is indeterminate ".

This means you can only observe the universe within your limits and within the limits of what the observable universe has to offer and this in itself is within the confines of time. Time itself is a construct of an existing eternity which I would refer to as TIME with capitals.

time as we know it was a simple construct by man to measure their observations but this time was pulled out from TIME which was there before man emerged or even before the universe emerged.

TIME is continuous and a constant but mans time which was pulled from an already running and eternal TIME is limited to the limitations of man itself.

I could argue that the observable properties man says the universe holds were named by man based on their limitations but if there were other life forms out there they would also give properties of their own to the universe which would not agree with man's construct.

If other intelligent life forms existed, matter as we call it would be known as something else to them and would probably also have their own values which they got by observing within their own limits as well wouldn't you agree?

Since you say the universe is eternal which shows you are an advocate of evolution, and we say God is eternal yet you still advocate for the question which says "who then created God",

I could say that since you also claim the universe is eternal and this universe created itself with you being in it which means the universe created you, then who created the universe?

butterflylion:
So you believe evolution is right?

And you believe the universe is eternal?

And based on this you believe the universe created itself hence the question if God created everything then who created God? Give me an answer please

walls01:
surprisingly, and ironically you have not took your time to study evolution theory and compare it with life. one organism evolving to another eh. where since man was in this earth either you or your great grandfather have witnessed it? evolution said it happened billion of yrs ago what suddenly stop it from happening now. everything about the evolution theory is assumption and that is what you put your whole faith on. please re-study the evolution theory again please. spherical when did man start using that term? please see through unbelief

walls01:
hahaha so we share DNA that means we came from an ancestor? why then are we different? the last time I checked an ape is still the same why humans create different things daily. it is so unfair for you to say that man and ape is alike maybe because they resemble. science indeed. a million years from now when they don't know 100 yrs from now. now on a more serious note where are the stages of evolving from this ape like creature to man and ape?
and in addition the bible actually did say the earth is round Isaiah 40:22

walls01:
is it because you do not believe in God that make you believe rubbish. ape like animal my foot where is this ape like animal and where are the intermediate changes since they claim is gradual. why have we not notice this changes again.
what are cardinal point and why such reference?

DMerciful:
Time is defined as the progress of existence! Is existence human construct? Space is the emptiness btw matter. Is this emptiness human construct? We are not talking about seconds and minutes here! We are talking about the unlimited progress of existence

DMerciful:
Time and space are not human construct. The way to calculate or measure these quantities are human construct however the quantitiesnthemselves are not human construct. Just as electricity can be converted to magnetism so also space can be converted to time n vice versa. Whatever was in the Beginning, we reffered to as God!

walls01:
first evolution says over time animals evolve to a higher organism. that apes evolve to human is this not foolishness. four corners of the earth do not mean the earth is flat. scientists divide the earth into four north South east and west do they mean also the earth is flat? Satan example you misunderstood. they are in the spirit realm when you are taking up in the spirit realm you actually see the whole universe

walls01:
many verses but take matt 24:1-end as one of them. take your time to read evolution theory it is foolishness on display. the Bible nowhere stated the earth is flat. eating dust is a figurative expression as the bible is known to express things. Jesus said you shall be born again, you see what I mean take born again as example

walls01:
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the Bible did prophesy this things. people are now used to solutions outside God and he is imaginary to people who don't believe. that apart what part of the evolution theory about life is even remotely true?

kazyhm:
the only thing i can advise the op is to take some astronomical courses.........s/he would understand h/her confusion about space, time and universe

walls01:
the statistic is in line with the bible prophecies that people will turn away from the light but will not be every one. God cures all form of sickness but men do not believe in him. if apes is our ancestors with almost the same DNA how come they are so many difference. if apes did change into man billion of years ago what has prevented us from witnessing even one mutation live now?