@Txlonghorn
Well I respect your right to disagree but I think that they have and you have the freedom of speech anywhere and everywhere. I don't know if they did it for entertainment or it (though it was an entertainment venue) but I do think they have to dissent against the war and/or President.

What are we if not free to voice our opinions?

Radiant:

lol

Chi baby! You missin my point. I'm asking you, what do they brag about? lol

Oh sorry, I must be slow today. I meant bragging about themselves as in forming an exclusive group for the sake of feeling "better than others". (I'm not against self-help or self-esteem.)

Well maybe you can try switching deodorants or anti-pespirants.

Try wearing clothes that don't cling to your arms, especially underarms/armpits, and avoid skin tight clothing.

Hair removal (shaving, waxing, threading, whatever) might also help the sweat dry faster.

But really, sweat is part of our body's natural cooling system. Some people sweat more than others and/or in different places and this can not be changed. Try to stay cool, dry and unchafed.

If you drink lots of water and eat healthy your sweat will not smell. Sweat alone doesn't smell. It's the bacteria that sometimes lives in sweat that gives off an odor.

Best~

Love the Dixie Chicks!

Love that they're from TEXAS!

Love that they criticized George W. Bush.

Love that Natalie Maines is sticking by it!

Love 'em!

Do you?

Radiant:

Talking about them "bragging" and "praising themselves", in what sense d'u mean that isn't clear to me?

Bragging about how the men beat them? Or how they maltreat them? Or how they ground them? Or how the men solely depend on the women to feed their asses and clothe them? Or is it the marital unfaithfulness?

Can you please tell me what they brag about?

Chinani I was asking you the above questions. I wanted to know if it was the above they brag about or other things?

I didn't say that's what you said.

Neway, takia

No, I've never heard anyone brag about the above, as in brag about beatings or unfaithfulness etc.

mochafella:

Mentacide maybe?

You're bad!

@Radiant
I meant "bragging" in terms of excessive pride which I dislike in anyone. I didn't mean bragging about negative things. Let me say that I'm not calling "all" of any group of people prideful or braggers.

***This thread has strayed off topic (so have I ). How is it that everything gets to be about white people on nL?

@Sista

Alexander Pushkin is the maternal* great-grandson of an Eritrean man who Peter, czar of Russia, wanted to educate. Peter made himself Gannibal's (that's his name) godfather.

Their relation is not through blood but through voluntary association. Hope that helps.



*sorry, before I said paternal and that was wrong!

@Radiant
You obviously have some issues that I can not address.

However what I can do is tell you that you quoted me doing 3 things (a) Explaining what I meant by "talking big" (which like other phrases can have multiple meanings) in the context & (b) saying that everyone on God's Earth should be proud of themselves and (c) stating that a white woman marrying a black man is not more of an accomplishment than a black woman marrying a black man or a black woman marrying a white man.

If you take issue with (a), (b), or (c) then state it plainly.

Don't hide behind words like 'ignorance'; tell me what you really think.

As of today, you've only told me that you know how to give insults without cause and misconstrue through hasty reading. That is such a trite condition, please, be original.

@Drusilla

Sorry it's taken me so long to respond. (Responding to this https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-23185.544.html#msg665394 )

Put Oprah and the Rockefellers in your search engine, same social set and circle. Not being personal friends with them doesn't prove the American class system either.

I used the word "friends" because I think that friendship is an intimate relationship and the Rockefellers posing with Oprah could be compared to 18 c. Dukes of England posing with their slaves; she's just a 'color' to embellish their grandeur.

But you mentioned "social set and circle". Tell me? Is Oprah there because she's charming and philanthropic or because she's paid?

She allowed to exist because she can afford to be there!

Well, of course your right. All Black people in America succeed by force of will and ambition. Trying to get into the big house by being favored went out with the harlem renaissance. (when rich whites sponsored black poets and singers).

I think the same can be said about the "force of will and ambition" of poor people. You have a point about the Harlem Renaissance but Black Expression is still commodified and sold to the highest bidder today. So might say the only thing that's changed is the quality.

I agree with that but as one who belongs to the group whose teen pregnancy has just dropped back to the rate of the 1950's, while others stayed the same or got worse, whose high unemployment is merely 10 percent and whose high illiteracy is dropping also and really high semi-illiteracy. I think not representing their interests rest with "other" Americans, not my particular subset group of Americans.

My comment was about AMERICA as a whole. Breaking the different stats into racial catergories can sometimes be helpful (when it comes to programs and etc.) but in this instance it is not, because since America is not predominatly A.A (13%) the fate of the A.As is tied to the economic viability of American non-blacks. So the overall literacy, jobs, and pregnancy (which can result in health problems etc.) is important.

But what is this about unemployment being at a mere 10%. In NYC 50% of A.A men are unemployed? http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FA0610F935580C7B8EDDAB0894DC404482&n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fSubjects%2fU%2fUnemployment http://www.cssny.org/news/releases/2005_0308.html
Though there are signs that employment about A.A is rising.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/01/AR2006090100430.html
In fact the National unemployment of A.A men right now is -- the exact same rate of unemployment of white men during the Great Depression. (I think I heard this on NPR but I'm trying to find a link.) So, no, I don't think things are going well. I wish they were, but they are not.

But of those who are working, how many earn a living wage? Or how many work 60 hours a week and can barely afford to save anything, not to mention a house or college tution? I'm asking in reference to Black people in America and non-Black people in America (who don't earn a living wage).

Check out Bowling for Columbia and/or the 60 Day challenge thing (don't remember the name of the show). Bowling for Columbine is not 'perfect' but it highlights some crucial problems w/in America very well.

Bill Gates denies the rumor that he recieved a million dollar trust fund. He went to good schools and was lucky but not that lucky. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gates,_Bill

Never said anything about a $1 dollar trust fund. Firstly $20,000 trusts are fairly standard and you needn't have one to still benefit from being Upper-Mid to Lower-High class. After college, I briefly, briefly worked for a woman who went to one of the oldest private schools in Houston. The tution to that school is still HIGHER than most UNIVERSITIES in TEXAS. She benefited from that. She belongs to the oldest country club in the city. Yet she also did not have a $1 million trust fund. Still, she and I are not the same class.

I refer to America as the Walmart nation, with a walmart religion, a walmart educational system, etc, etc. One big shopping center.

Never thought of it in just this way but I'm going to remember this analogy.

@Drusilla
Duly noted. Thanks for the correction and link (above).

@Nferyn
Thanks for noticing. I totally agree w/ your additions to the conversation, especially, And how many of these squander their weath in ill-conceived illusions of grandeur? Trying to fit into a class they will never be accepted in? Approprating the external symbols of wealth while still being excluded from the upper class. Rich they are, wealthy most definitely not.

Wish people would accept this already and stop hurting themselves. https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-23185.544.html#msg665526

@NinetoFive
You're welcome.

@Mamaput & Radiant

I don't know what y'all are mad about but I certainly won't take that away from you.

Again, I see "talking big" (the phrase) is the problem. Well read what I wrote w/o the phrase since it was misconstrued.

I meant "oyinbo" as "foreigner" (Igbo loan word) not "white". If you think that I was flippant about the organization b/c I thought it was a "white's only" organization then you were so, so, so wrong. Don't know why anyone would think that about me.

I thought it was clear from my previous post that it's not crucial (in my opinoin one way or the other) as far as I'm concerned. Who's denouncing them here? *let's look around* If y'all want to soap box I won't take it away from you but don't call my name ok?

Radiant, please explain to this "chinani girl" her ignorance. I'm very interested to learn. Who said they or anyone else should not be "proud"? Perhaps you shall read my words again. Since my 2nd post (the one you asked for for clarity) is so plainly written, I will not paraphrase. If you misunderstand again, please ask. It's really impolite to call me names. And if you knew that I already knew that: Niger wives simply means women from any country aside Nigeria who are married to Nigerian men then you might be embarrassed to have implied that I am ignorant. Really, it's not classy behavior and I don't appreciate it as nothing has transpired here to warrant the behavior.

Mamaput, you are repeating things I already know but that's fine I suppose. Again, I don't understand why you are mad or offended or whatever; you think I'm ignorant of the organization I am not. I said "good" to (self-) help and that maybe I'll be a Rhine Wife one day. You have sentimental view (or presentation) of the organization but again it's nothing to quarrel over. I'm sorry if I don't take the group as seriously as you take it, but I'm well aware of the facts & they don't change me mind.

Life goes on.

What's the point of the 'Alexander Pushkin' story?

The point is that American racism or Anglo racism is, to a certain extent, just that; limited to geographical and cultural construts/boundaries.

So Gannibal was freed by Peter the Great. Why do you think artists liked going to Russia duringt the Harlem Renaissance? People from Langston Hughes to Louis Armstrong talked about how they felt "free" (their words). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abram_Petrovich_Gannibal

NinetoFive is trying to explain what happened between 1920,30s,40s (cold war) and 1995. And, it's worth explaining. If it sounds self aggrandizing, it's b/c it is, maybe, a little. . .But that alone -- the benefit he recieves or the (emotional) investment in the point -- does not negate his point.

[center]Am I talking out of turn yet? [/center]

Let me add my bits:

@ All
NinetoFive's 1st post on Nairaland was about his wife & children. If 'you' (royal you) did not read it, it's not his fault that you (still royal) are disappointed and confused. No, this comment isn't just for Sista. I have some friends on Nairaland who were also "surprised" (not good surprise or bad surprise just surprise) about NinetoFive but I knew that already b/c I read his 1st posts.

NinetoFive, ndo. But Nna, I don't the think the 'A. Pushkin' story is an aside persay. Here, let me retell it.

The king or czar is Peter the Great. In the late 15th c. a young boy and his sister were sold into slavery from Eritrea. It's believed that they came from a dynastic family or a family of lesser nobles but no one is certain. The siblings ended up in Turkey and Istanbul where the sister died. From there the boy was taken by orders from Peter the Great, czar of Russia, to Russia. Peter the Great became his godfather and showed methodical concern for him.

Here's a link. It's reasonably factual & easy to understand. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Pushkin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abram_Petrovich_Gannibal

That Eritrean man was ALEXANDER PUSHKIN's paternal great-grandfather. Alexander Pushkin is the "author of the modern Russian language". The way he wrote changed the way people spoke! Very few times in history has this happened. Pushkin also elevated the position of the novel but that's another subject.

Anyhow, it's arguable that the "father of modern Russian" is "black" but in his time A. Pushkin & his father weren't really considered black. Just shows how subjective race is. But then again, Racism is neo-classism in disguise.

Queen Victoria did something similar for a young girl from West Africa. I read about it many years ago & when I have time to find the link or the book title I will post it. (The Queen Victoria story is easier to find b/c it's more recent.)

Hmmm, "talking big" seemed to bother people. To answer questions:

@Radiant
What I meant by "talking big" was "praising themselves" or should I say "bragging"? Don't get me wrong I think everyone should be proud of him or herself but I don't think it's more of an accomplishment to be a 'white' woman married to a Nigerian man than a Nigerian woman married to a Nigerian man.

@Mamaput
Well good for them. Let them help themselves. It has nothing to do with me anyhow. Maybe I'll go be a Rhine Wife oneday.

@Sista https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-23185.480.html#msg662284
Ok, now that I've heard more of the story I see how you had a negative reaction. Sounds dramatic (in a bad way). If you felt (vibes) that the hairdresser didn't like AA people/women I can't argue with that b/c I believe in vibes (good/bad energy). I just hope you don't stop giving people a chance b/c of a negative experience.

I don't think the Fulani background had anything to do with the woman's reaction. As you said, the AA woman "provoked the argument" (sic). In my opinion, they both behaved badly or rather neither behaved well/level headed.

As far as "getting out of control in her place of business" some subscribe to the notion that if you can't vent on your property then where can you vent? I think the Fulani woman prolly felt her back against the wall. Based on your response it sounds to me like you didn't go back b/c the Fulani lady lacked professionalism not b/c of any African/AA conflict. Just a thought.

Laudate you said some 'good' things before but Niger wives. . .

I stumbled on the website before and quite frankly it's lame.

It's a group of oyinbo (foreigner! using it as a loan word sha, don't crucify me!) talking big like they deserve a medal for having Nigerian husbands. *eye roll*

It's the same shiit with new wrapping paper. Wholly unimpressed.

@Drusilla

I have been criticized for knowing a certain class of Africans who are treated as royalty in America because they are part of the class that America brings here to train to go back and take over a country.

I'm confused by this statement. Are you saying that Africans criticize you for knowing rich Africans?

The idea of the class system being dead, is that you can collect enough dollars to be thought of like the Rockefellers. You can go from country girl to Oprah Winfrey richest woman in the world. Or from housewife to Martha Stewart. Or from trailer to the whitehouse like Bill Clinton. Or be a college drop out to richest man in the world- Bill Gates.

That is why the class system is dead not because people are never treated differently. It is just that there is an awareness that you may be talking to the next big person.

None of this information disproves the American class system. For starters, Oprah is not friends with the Rockfellers and probably could not belong to their country club if she tried. She did not have the same educational or professional opportunities because of the class system not despite it. Class works to exclude the majority of resources (incl. opportunities). Oprah succeeded inspite of the existence of a class system not b/c of a non-existent class system.

America will continue to have high illiteracy, high teen pregnancy, high unemployment and lack adequate health care (in comparison to the rest of the industrialized world) b/c people are too stuck on nonsense to represent their economic interests!

CLASS MATTERS. Bill Gates is a Richie b/c his family was UPPER (very high upper) MIDDLE/lower upper class. Even he will tell you that.

From the projects to what is considered musical royalty--Jackson Family. From welfare reciepient to judge on TV, or Rap Star.

That is why the class system is dead not because people are never treated differently. It is just that there is an awareness that you may be talking to the next big person.

If it is a myth, somebody needs to inform JayZ that the 360 million he is now worth, isn't really the money of a boy who grew up on welfare cheese.

As for the entertainers, well they are just that, entertainers, they are still the proletariat. I don't think the Jackson's even own their own Masters. But really, I hate to speak of the Jackson's; I consider them a portrait of Black Self Hate so I will say no more.

As for Jay-Z. He is just another worker bee. There's the theorist, Gramci who says that the 'ruling class' rules by enslaving the thoughts of man not his body. In other words, the ruling class indoctrinates the proletariat (working class). Jay Z is a classic case of this. He 'made it' and the best he can do is rep Roberto Cavelli and other white status (i.e. class) symbols. If anything, he reinforces (a white class structure) to black people. He's a useful idiot (along w/ other rappers/athletes) as far as I'm concerned.

The success of these "make it good" icons is comprable to a the success of a few streams of river water making it throw a dam (by decree of the 'dam watcher') in order to preserve the structural integrity of the dam (class system) itself.

If anything the commodification of our lives (or is it self-esteem) is the true American Pathology.

@Sista

Somehow, I missed where Babyosisi said that so I apologize for speaking out of turn. However, my comment wasn't in relation to that (b/c I didn't know about it, again, sorry). My comment was about your story. Basically, I think you read cultural well, but not flawlessly. Can flawlessness be achieved, don't know, I think I'm batting 95% right now, but I still have off days. My point was about the way you read certain situations b/c I think you have some inherent assumptions evidenced by your story.

Just to remind you I said this It's peculiar that you assume to know where the African woman was coming from. I call it an assumption b/c you have a very definite conclusion & this is the link https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-23185.416.html#msg660581

I think you're trying to do some conscienceness raising here and I offer this in the same vein as food for thought.


@Drusilla

It is a well known unspoken rule among AA that you do not mention the immizerated peasants in Nigeria because the business class will shun you. My friend thrills me with many stories of secretly having to go to the villages and help them improve because he could not do his oil business with Nigerians if they knew that he was really an American Communist (rich man who comes from Shell oil family) who wanted all the African people especially the peasants to get on their feet.

I have to say this is dead wrong. Firstly, how do you know or why do you think that the majority of people here aren't of the "peasant class"? What makes you think so? I think that most Americans would consider a majority of African immigrants among the peasant class (if they knew their biz like that). Have you ever read the interviews Freddy Adu (go Ghana!) does w/ his mother? They talked about how they won the (visa) lottery and when they came life was easier. . .but not. I think Africans maybe quieter or just used to talking to "themselves" about these things so you don't here it. Or maybe you only hob knob w/ the paid cats but no, that's not most.

Secondly, Americans have a voyeuristic view of Africa. Many anyway. So they want to talk about what they saw on CNN but not get to know the person they are speaking to. People resent that and don't always want to talk about "breaking news" or however CNN defines it.

I don't know anything about your 'Shell friend'. The story sounds out of the world to me.

This is strange to us as Americans first of all because as you know, in America the class system is considered dead.

There's no de jure class system like in Europe but it definitely exists. Ask the Rockefellers.

You can start in the worst class and end in the best class, regardless of education.

That's the myth of the American Dream no? I totally subscribe to Death of a Salesman on this. I think the 'American Dream' is a trite, sales pitch to erode away any of the bitterness wrought by the (invisible) class system.

People who speak too well are even teased among whites as being pompous and hoity toity and using 50 dollar words when a 50 cent word would have done.

What does this have to do with Africans? "Too well" is a relative term anyway. It's totally arbitrary. If you want to distance yourself from someone b/c of speech "ok" but there's no need to rationalize.

Also as Christians as most Americans are, the idea of doing as any Continental African knows is done, stepping over dead bodies, stepping over lepers, officials beating people for no reason, etc is strange to us. In our mind we must all be the good samaritan that Jesus talked about this is why white and black americans stop for each other and help each other. Even if racist, we still help each other. Because that is our christian duty.

Honestly I don't have much respect of American religiosity. No one speaks, only yells so they echo can be loud and hollow in the megaplex.

But your comment about Africans. . .let's assume that these things do happen (worse case scenario), do you think it happens b/c people want it to happen? B/c 'we' rejoice in it? What do you think of Ken Saro-Wiwa who ended up in a ditch for fighting back. You sound as though you don't know or here of the Samaritans but they exist.

I am aware though that it could be my cultural misunderstanding of what people mean when they refer to their fellow Nigerians as uneducated or lower classs or not worthy of help.

Honestly, I've never heard Naijas say this. I know people who are a bit full of themselves and I laugh & sometimes make them laugh too. Maybe it's the company you keep (not trying to be snippy). But again, perspective is everything. As you must know, it's easier to "front" w/ outsiders whereas "insiders" would already know how to berate your ass if you went there.

I wasn't trying to say it made it "less bad". I just think the "fascination" with the "other way around" is really avoidance.

Why are you dudes gisting about men being raped by women when the VAST majority of rapes are:
[center]
MEN raping WOMEN

and

MEN raping MEN?[/center]

It's not cool. Just shows how derelict we are in confronting the truth. Someone brings up a serious topic & we have to flip the script to be "interesting".

True talk, Superman

As long as long as there is MTV Base, Africans will always suffer from self hate. The Caucasians started this snowball effect and we as Africans have no intention of bringing it to a stop.

Thought I was the only person who noticed this. But then BET is now owned by Viacom, making it MTV in Blackface. Sad. Just sad.

@Uju
Not ignoring you doll, but I don't know if I can "help" either.

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-23185.384.html#msg659536

@Drusilla
Thank you for stating your position so succinctly. I think it provides much clarity. However I take issue with your "sharing" comment. You said (and I'm paraphrasing) that Africans are just out for "me and mines" while A.As believe in sharing. Well I beg to differ.

You should know that many people who come here come w/ other people's children just to give them an opportunity and send lots of money home. The money could go to a brother but just as likely to a aunt's second cousin's daughter. Meaning? Our concept of "me and mines" is broader than you may imagine. Furthermore, many people support the wider community. My aunt goes to her (Nigerian) high school reunions in ATL and they raise thousands (last time 40,000 USD) for a school that's now dilapidated that none of our relatives currently go to. Her & her classmates put their coins together instead of buying "me and mines" the new Jordan's or Escalade.

I don't want to get into a "who is better" or "who is greedier" argument, but I think you should rethink this "point".

For once I think Seun had a point with the location rule!

@Maxell
Why don't consider, if not concede, that you don't know everything about the Black experience which would include the Black American experience.

I'm not saying I know "everything" either. I am saying that you do not know where Sista is coming from and while she has a very obvious agenda. . .

Suddenly, so do you. Your agenda is to "win" against Sista.

This goes to show that some African born black women are insecure towards us American born black women. i am sure it happes the other way around but we are talking about people like Babosisi. African born black women want to believe that theyare more intelligent and much more smarter than the AA woman and vise versa.

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-23185.384.html#msg660159

Sista, I've kept up w/ this post & read your every word including the story in the braiding shop. It's peculiar that you assume to know where the African woman was coming from. I call it an assumption b/c you have a very definite conclusion.

Please, stop with the assumptions. As you stated, English is your 1st language. You were taught English by people (your parents) who also spoke English as their 1st language, people who think in English. Please understand that people who do not think in English or speak it as their 1st language sometimes say things differently and can be misunderstood in general or simply by those are not used to their speaking patterns.

I'd like to point out that several of the people you assume of being white have African (Igbo) speech patterns & just so happen to write in English.

Finally, of you, I ask the same thing I ask of Maxell. Stop assuming that you know everything about the Black experience which includes the African (Nigerian) experience. Several times you managed to miss what Nigerians were saying in their very-Nigerian way, so please stop this assumption and approach everything with an open mind.

You too (Maxell & Sista) want to condemn each other and yet in each condemnation you convict yourselves of ignorance.

sanity616:

Umm i'm black my parents both born from england but my grandma from my dad side is nigerian her husband is frm da england, but my grandparents from my mom side r nigerians but my mom is from enlgand, i've lived in england longer than i've stayed in Nigeria but now i live in the america, so wht does that make me?

1 set of Naija granparents + 1 add. Naija granny = YOU ARE NIGERIAN!

Didn't you know that? What do your parents consider themselves?

@BrownEyes
I'm really feelin' your posts.

@Sista
Don't be so hard on Constantin. He sounds, er, young & 'first love' etc. is usually a bit desperate.